RE: Immigration debate hits home for liver transplant patients (Full Version)

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TomTurn -> RE: Immigration debate hits home for liver transplant patients (4/16/2008 11:35:49 AM)

quote:

The first 2 words is immigration debate!


You are correct, more later



TomTurn -> RE: Immigration debate hits home for liver transplant patients (4/16/2008 12:34:40 PM)

This should be pointed out again from teh article

.....

"It doesn't matter if I'm undocumented [illegaly here]," she said. "They should take care of me at UCLA for the rest of my life because I've been there since I was a baby."

....



wing2000 -> RE: Immigration debate hits home for liver transplant patients (4/16/2008 1:08:12 PM)

So TomTurn...the next time you eat out, check into a hotel, buy a house or use any service that requires physical labor, I expect you will ask the manager or owner if all his/her employees are legally employed and verified as such through E-Verify?



Zhi -> RE: Immigration debate hits home for liver transplant patients (4/16/2008 1:36:31 PM)

We're kind of getting off topic.

I would like to know what those sympathetic to this woman would say to the family members of the people who have died waiting for a liver because people like this woman have come into this country illegally to use our healthcare system and our finite quantity of available organs for transplant, of which she has taken 3 so far and is going for a 4th.

I would like to know what those sympathetic to this woman would say to the family members of the people who were turned down for liver transplants and died, because they did not have the recourse this woman used to get free health care simply by claiming illegal immigrant status.

Am I sympathetic to her? Sure. I'm very sorry that she has this disease. But, I consider the other victims in this articles, people who we're supposed to look after first, because they are citizens here. She is not. She should be dependent on the resources of her own country. It has nothing to do with her coming here as a child, it has to do with her nationality. American citizens are dying because this woman is here illegally running up healthcare bills and using organs that they would have otherwise gotten.

She herself has said she's not here for the work, she's here for the free healthcare, which, despite being an illegal immigrant, she still somehow feels entitled to. That makes no logical sense.



TomTurn -> RE: Immigration debate hits home for liver transplant patients (4/16/2008 1:44:22 PM)

quote:

the next time you eat out, check into a hotel, buy a house or use any service that requires physical labor


Do not eat out, do not stay in hotels and do my own physical labor. When I need physical labor help I hire the local high school boys.
What a concept.



TomTurn -> RE: Immigration debate hits home for liver transplant patients (4/16/2008 1:46:20 PM)

quote:

Am I sympathetic to her? Sure. I'm very sorry that she has this disease


We all are and after the 2nd transplant failure maybe a 3rd is not going to help anything.

Now she is demanding a 4th

What will that do? Who will that push out of line?



mapachito13 -> RE: Immigration debate hits home for liver transplant patients (4/16/2008 2:26:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zhi

We're kind of getting off topic.

I would like to know what those sympathetic to this woman would say to the family members of the people who have died waiting for a liver because people like this woman have come into this country illegally to use our healthcare system and our finite quantity of available organs for transplant, of which she has taken 3 so far and is going for a 4th.

I would like to know what those sympathetic to this woman would say to the family members of the people who were turned down for liver transplants and died, because they did not have the recourse this woman used to get free health care simply by claiming illegal immigrant status.


I'd ask them if they are registered donors? I'd ask them if they've talked to their friends about becoming donors? The problem is with the supply. A lot more people die every year with good livers and aren't donors than those that need this life saving procedure. As for my body, use me for spare parts. I don't think anyone will be interested in the brain though.[sm=rollingeyes.gif]

quote:

She herself has said she's not here for the work, she's here for the free healthcare, which, despite being an illegal immigrant, she still somehow feels entitled to. That makes no logical sense.


Sounds like a true American to me! [sm=flagamerican.jpg] It makes me so proud when they adopt our way of life.



TomTurn -> RE: Immigration debate hits home for liver transplant patients (4/16/2008 2:32:15 PM)

quote:

The problem is with the supply. A lot more people die every year with good livers and aren't donors than those that need this life saving procedure. As for my body, use me for spare parts. I don't think anyone will be interested in the brain though


Agreed and ditto to the last line for me too.

What is part of the issue here is people being in the U.S illegally but demanding being ahead of anyone who waited in line. Now here is the same with a transplant.



earthless -> RE: Immigration debate hits home for liver transplant patients (4/16/2008 3:43:54 PM)

TomTurn,

The case is not the norm.



TomTurn -> RE: Immigration debate hits home for liver transplant patients (4/16/2008 6:41:47 PM)

quote:

The case is not the norm.


She is here illegally and demanding to be ahead of others who are legal or waiting in line. Seems to be the norm.



earthless -> RE: Immigration debate hits home for liver transplant patients (4/16/2008 6:44:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TomTurn

quote:

The case is not the norm.


She is here illegally and demanding to be ahead of others who are legal or waiting in line. Seems to be the norm.


So there are millions of illegal immigrants demanding organ transplants ASAP? I doubt that is what you meant.

It may be the norm for her, fine. But no one has to cater to her demands.



rowsdower -> RE: Immigration debate hits home for liver transplant patients (4/17/2008 5:39:32 PM)

Actually you get much better benefits if you are illegal. A piece in the LA times last year highlighted an illegal who had medical services totaling 1200 dollars and she couldn't pay. So she went to some immigrant-rights agency. She is then quoted and I'll paraphrase, that she realized she had rights too. So they complained to the hospital and without blinking, they reduced the bill to 60 dollars. This is the norm. This goes on all the time. I'm an American citizen, I pay taxes and I have insurance. If I have a bad month, maybe lose my job, you honestly think they will just cut me a break out of the goodness of their hearts? Of course not. They don't want to get sued for discrimination...that's it. They don't want to be called racist and sued. So it's easier to pass the bill on to the rest of us. Which, make no mistake about it, we are all paying for this type of thing.



mapachito13 -> RE: Immigration debate hits home for liver transplant patients (4/17/2008 6:44:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rowsdower

Actually you get much better benefits if you are illegal. A piece in the LA times last year highlighted an illegal who had medical services totaling 1200 dollars and she couldn't pay. So she went to some immigrant-rights agency. She is then quoted and I'll paraphrase, that she realized she had rights too. So they complained to the hospital and without blinking, they reduced the bill to 60 dollars. This is the norm. This goes on all the time. I'm an American citizen, I pay taxes and I have insurance. If I have a bad month, maybe lose my job, you honestly think they will just cut me a break out of the goodness of their hearts? Of course not. They don't want to get sued for discrimination...that's it. They don't want to be called racist and sued. So it's easier to pass the bill on to the rest of us. Which, make no mistake about it, we are all paying for this type of thing.


Consider it giving alms to the poor.



Zhi -> RE: Immigration debate hits home for liver transplant patients (4/17/2008 7:21:17 PM)

If you willingly pull money out of your pocket and give it to a poor person, then it's called alms to the poor.

If the poor person forces you to give them money, then that's called a mugging.



rnershigh -> RE: Immigration debate hits home for liver transplant patients (4/17/2008 9:46:31 PM)

I can understand she has a medical problem and she came here as a child illegally, but this is really bold, the way she's come forward.

Iit was just not one liver that she received. She's already on her 3rd one, soon to be 4th! Now, I'm not saying she's wasting livers here. She is still a human being, but IMO she's being very selfish in going public with all this trying to garner sympathy. I think what she did by going to the media was blatant and a slap in the face to the thousands on waiting lists, waiting for organs. American citizens who wait their turn, and here this woman comes and cuts in ahead of them. The reason being she's an illegal immigrant so she somehow has more rights to get to the front of the line? It's sad and wrong. I just feel for all the patients and their families that have to hear about this in the media and the disappointment, anger, and sadness they must feel knowing that if they had been an illegal immigrant, they might have been able to have more than one chance for an organ too.[&o]



TomTurn -> RE: Immigration debate hits home for liver transplant patients (4/17/2008 10:03:33 PM)

quote:

So there are millions of illegal immigrants demanding organ transplants ASAP? I doubt that is what you meant.


You know it means there are millions of illegals here demanding to be ahead of everyone in line for visas and citizenship. medical treatment is just another area to place more demands of special treatment over those who are legally waiting in line and has been going on a while. Not saying in transplants but plenty of other medical demands. Saw it when I lived in So. Cal.

As said, after the 1st transplant failed, medically a 2nd could be called for, after the 3rd and now wanting a 4th. There is something wrong that a liver is not going to fix. Think the hospital has long bowed to politically correct pressure and continued to treat her in fear.



rowsdower -> RE: Immigration debate hits home for liver transplant patients (4/18/2008 3:16:56 PM)

I can't consider it giving alms to the poor because it's not. Giving is done on one's own volition...otherwise it's NOT giving. New testament giving is defined as not under compulsion. This is not giving alms, this is socialism and it is hurting far more people than it is helping.



quote:

ORIGINAL: mapachito13

quote:

ORIGINAL: rowsdower

Actually you get much better benefits if you are illegal. A piece in the LA times last year highlighted an illegal who had medical services totaling 1200 dollars and she couldn't pay. So she went to some immigrant-rights agency. She is then quoted and I'll paraphrase, that she realized she had rights too. So they complained to the hospital and without blinking, they reduced the bill to 60 dollars. This is the norm. This goes on all the time. I'm an American citizen, I pay taxes and I have insurance. If I have a bad month, maybe lose my job, you honestly think they will just cut me a break out of the goodness of their hearts? Of course not. They don't want to get sued for discrimination...that's it. They don't want to be called racist and sued. So it's easier to pass the bill on to the rest of us. Which, make no mistake about it, we are all paying for this type of thing.


Consider it giving alms to the poor.



mapachito13 -> RE: Immigration debate hits home for liver transplant patients (4/18/2008 6:20:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rowsdower

I can't consider it giving alms to the poor because it's not. Giving is done on one's own volition...otherwise it's NOT giving. New testament giving is defined as not under compulsion. This is not giving alms, this is socialism and it is hurting far more people than it is helping.



quote:

ORIGINAL: mapachito13

quote:

ORIGINAL: rowsdower

Actually you get much better benefits if you are illegal. A piece in the LA times last year highlighted an illegal who had medical services totaling 1200 dollars and she couldn't pay. So she went to some immigrant-rights agency. She is then quoted and I'll paraphrase, that she realized she had rights too. So they complained to the hospital and without blinking, they reduced the bill to 60 dollars. This is the norm. This goes on all the time. I'm an American citizen, I pay taxes and I have insurance. If I have a bad month, maybe lose my job, you honestly think they will just cut me a break out of the goodness of their hearts? Of course not. They don't want to get sued for discrimination...that's it. They don't want to be called racist and sued. So it's easier to pass the bill on to the rest of us. Which, make no mistake about it, we are all paying for this type of thing.


Consider it giving alms to the poor.



I guess I should have put the sarc/on after that statement. I guess it's more like agressive panhandling.

BTW, one question, if your child was the one needing the 4th transplant would you try to get it or just say "It's unfair to ask for more, You're just going to have to die!"



TomTurn -> RE: Immigration debate hits home for liver transplant patients (4/18/2008 8:26:52 PM)

quote:

if your child was the one needing the 4th transplant would you try to get it or just say "It's unfair to ask for more, You're just going to have to die!"


Maybe the question to be asking is why is this happening again? Maybe we should be doing something else?

Or

If it were your child needing the 4th transplant, and you had came into the country illegaly and were demanding the 4th, which citizen, legal resident child do you want to look in the eye and say, "You are going to have to die"?



Starbucks880 -> RE: Immigration debate hits home for liver transplant patients (4/19/2008 12:00:03 AM)

I do feel sorry for the girl, but I also feel sorry for the people who everyday die waiting for a transplant. Unfortunately, you can't just go to Costco and buy a liver. They are rare and need to be rationed. Unfortunately, what is also the case is put enough pressure and a person gets a transplant. I can't remember where I read the specific case, but there was a case in a girl who was denied a transplant by Cigna and only after outrage and media coverage did she get her liver, even though it was clearly contraindicated and she died anyway. In this case, we have a girl who will soon be on her 4th liver. I would like to know the liklehood and statisics of success and how likely it is that in a few years, she will think she deserves a 5th liver. I don't like to see a young girl die anymore than anyone else, but we can't just keep giving livers to one person when there are many more people on the transplant who are more likely to benefit. I am not going to comment on her immigration status or ethnicity, just the fact that livers are rare and even if it means denying her another one, we have to think of the good of the whole, because those were 3 other people who could have received a transplant and who possibly will die, since you have to basically count on an eligible donor who got killed in some way who just happened to be signed up as a donor.

But back on immigration status, I think it is a valid piont on whether the taxpayers should foot the bill in this. Now before I start, I am not one who thinks we should just start pounding on doors and throwing them out. Transplants are very expensive--not just the procedure, but the care and follow-up that comes after. We can't even take care of our own citizens and can't even get our own citizens insurance--yet we should automatically pay for expensive procedures for those who are illegal???? something isn't right here.



rowsdower -> RE: Immigration debate hits home for liver transplant patients (4/24/2008 4:34:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mapachito13

quote:

ORIGINAL: rowsdower

I can't consider it giving alms to the poor because it's not. Giving is done on one's own volition...otherwise it's NOT giving. New testament giving is defined as not under compulsion. This is not giving alms, this is socialism and it is hurting far more people than it is helping.



quote:

ORIGINAL: mapachito13

quote:

ORIGINAL: rowsdower

Actually you get much better benefits if you are illegal. A piece in the LA times last year highlighted an illegal who had medical services totaling 1200 dollars and she couldn't pay. So she went to some immigrant-rights agency. She is then quoted and I'll paraphrase, that she realized she had rights too. So they complained to the hospital and without blinking, they reduced the bill to 60 dollars. This is the norm. This goes on all the time. I'm an American citizen, I pay taxes and I have insurance. If I have a bad month, maybe lose my job, you honestly think they will just cut me a break out of the goodness of their hearts? Of course not. They don't want to get sued for discrimination...that's it. They don't want to be called racist and sued. So it's easier to pass the bill on to the rest of us. Which, make no mistake about it, we are all paying for this type of thing.


Consider it giving alms to the poor.



I guess I should have put the sarc/on after that statement. I guess it's more like agressive panhandling.

BTW, one question, if your child was the one needing the 4th transplant would you try to get it or just say "It's unfair to ask for more, You're just going to have to die!"


It's not agressive panhandling. With panhandling you still have a choice to give something, even when the other party is agressive. This is socialism, no matter how you slice it.

And the question is silly...no parent in their right mind wants their kid to die...I think we all understand that. But realize what this scenario really means:

If, as an American Citizen, your kid, or some family member, needed a transplant and the hospital told you..."By the way, your child has been bumped we have another patient that needs this...and by the way, it's their 4th...and by the way they aren't even a citizen....and by the way they can't pay for it, nor are we going to ask them to pay for it....we'll call you when we get something down the line."

Now tell me if THAT is fair.



mapachito13 -> RE: Immigration debate hits home for liver transplant patients (4/24/2008 7:12:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TomTurn

If it were your child needing the 4th transplant, and you had came into the country illegaly and were demanding the 4th, which citizen, legal resident child do you want to look in the eye and say, "You are going to have to die"?


No one would have to die if there were more donors. So, as Christians, we should then sign up to become donors so there are enough organs to go around for everyone! It's people's unwillingness (cowardice) to become a donor that creates this problem to begin with!

I'd rather that they deny this lady another liver based on her medical condition rather than her citizenship status. Or as Americans have we come to feel so superior that we feel that someone from another country's life is worth less than an American life?



Zhi -> RE: Immigration debate hits home for liver transplant patients (4/26/2008 11:08:35 PM)

quote:

I'd rather that they deny this lady another liver based on her medical condition rather than her citizenship status. Or as Americans have we come to feel so superior that we feel that someone from another country's life is worth less than an American life?


Well, apparently we've come to feel so inferior that we feel someone from another country's life is worth MORE than an American life. If you'll read carefully, you'll notice that not only has she had all her previous surgeries paid for by taxpayers (something that no citizen or legal immigrant/visa holder/green card holder here would be eligible for), but the ONLY reason she's even eligible for this fourth surgery is the fact that she's here illegally. Not because her condition and prognosis merits it, not because there are plenty of livers to go around, but that she gets to bump other people based solely on the fact that she's here illegally. Which is a felony. I don't think you'd feel the same way if she were getting this sort of special treatment due to the fact that she's an embezzler or a car thief. Why is "illegal immigrant" some sort of badge of honor and reason to reward people these days?

It appears that that's really the basis of most of the outrage here.



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