Do we have a right to enjoy God? (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Theology] >> God

[Poll]

Do we have a right to enjoy God?


Yes
  78% (30)
No
  10% (4)
All of the Above
  2% (1)
Other
  7% (3)


Total Votes : 38
(last vote on : 7/26/2008 10:53:32 PM)
(Poll will run till: -- )


Message

FurGodWurLivin -> Do we have a right to enjoy God? (4/13/2008 8:12:13 PM)

I believe John Piper referred to this as "Christian Hedonism" and several others have referred to this as "Happy holiness". My opinionated question then becomes, do we have the right to enjoy our relationship with God?

Adam



faithfulservant_ -> RE: Do we have a right to enjoy God? (4/13/2008 9:03:10 PM)

YES! We need to have joy and peace with God.

"Let them shout for joy and rejoice, who favor my vindication; And let them say continually, "The LORD be magnified, Who delights in the prosperity of His servant."
(Psalm 35:27)



Kat_D -> RE: Do we have a right to enjoy God? (4/13/2008 9:42:51 PM)

Do you have a Scripture to back up the assertion that we have a right to enjoy God?

The Bible speaks of joy in the following passages:

27 "For You will not leave my soul in Hades, Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption. 28 You have made known to me the ways of life; You will make me full of joy in Your presence.'" -Acts 2

In that verse we see that we have joy In His presence because He saved us from hell and because we will spend eternity with Him.

9 "As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love. 10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love. 11 These things I have spoken to you, that My joy may remain in you, and that your joy may be full." -John 15

In that verse we see that we have joy because of Christ's love and will continue to have it if we follow His commandments.

We have no rights. We have been bought and paid for at an enormous price and because of that we are bondservants and are here to serve the One who owns us. We are to live to please God, to glorify Him, and give Him honor. In doing that we will have great joy because we our pleasing our Master. It's not about us, it's about Him.

The attitude of our hearts should be...

12 "How can I repay You, Lord for all Your goodness to me?" -Psalm 116

...not, "What pleasure can I get out of this?"

In cultivating hearts of gratitude, we will find joy!



bob97 -> RE: Do we have a right to enjoy God? (4/13/2008 10:10:23 PM)

God has taken away my fears and worry s. He has replaced that baggage with his Love and promise of eternal life in His presents. He provided my daily needs and brightens my every moment…and you wonder if I have a right to enjoy God…He has given me no other option.

All He asks of me is to obey and love Him…what a JOY!

Bob



faithfulservant_ -> RE: Do we have a right to enjoy God? (4/13/2008 10:20:47 PM)

quote:

original: Kat_D

Do you have a Scripture to back up the assertion that we have a right to enjoy God?


"Am I not free? Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord? Are you not my work in the Lord? If to others I am not an apostle, at least I am to you; for you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord. My defense to those who examine me is this: Do we not have a right to eat and drink? Do we not have a right to take along a believing wife, even as the rest of the apostles and the brothers of the Lord and Cephas? Or do only Barnabas and I not have a right to refrain from working? Who at any time serves as a soldier at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard and does not eat the fruit of it? Or who tends a flock and does not use the milk of the flock?" (1 Corinthians 9:1-7)

"Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom."
(2 Corinthians 3:17)



Kat_D -> RE: Do we have a right to enjoy God? (4/13/2008 10:58:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: faithfulservant1

quote:

original: Kat_D

Do you have a Scripture to back up the assertion that we have a right to enjoy God?


"Am I not free? Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord? Are you not my work in the Lord? If to others I am not an apostle, at least I am to you; for you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord. My defense to those who examine me is this: Do we not have a right to eat and drink? Do we not have a right to take along a believing wife, even as the rest of the apostles and the brothers of the Lord and Cephas? Or do only Barnabas and I not have a right to refrain from working? Who at any time serves as a soldier at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard and does not eat the fruit of it? Or who tends a flock and does not use the milk of the flock?" (1 Corinthians 9:1-7)

Read HERE for the meaning of those verses.

quote:


"Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom."
(2 Corinthians 3:17)

Read HERE for the meaning of that verse.

Not sure just how those verses prove we have a right to enjoy God?



SD456 -> RE: Do we have a right to enjoy God? (4/13/2008 11:02:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kat_D

Do you have a Scripture to back up the assertion that we have a right to enjoy God?

The Bible speaks of joy in the following passages:

27 "For You will not leave my soul in Hades, Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption. 28 You have made known to me the ways of life; You will make me full of joy in Your presence.'" -Acts 2

In that verse we see that we have joy In His presence because He saved us from hell and because we will spend eternity with Him.

9 "As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love. 10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love. 11 These things I have spoken to you, that My joy may remain in you, and that your joy may be full." -John 15

In that verse we see that we have joy because of Christ's love and will continue to have it if we follow His commandments.

We have no rights. We have been bought and paid for at an enormous price and because of that we are bondservants and are here to serve the One who owns us. We are to live to please God, to glorify Him, and give Him honor. In doing that we will have great joy because we our pleasing our Master. It's not about us, it's about Him.

The attitude of our hearts should be...

12 "How can I repay You, Lord for all Your goodness to me?" -Psalm 116

...not, "What pleasure can I get out of this?"

In cultivating hearts of gratitude, we will find joy!


We are sons and daughters adopted into God's family, so yes, we have the rights of a child who is a co-heir with Jesus. We definately have the 'right' to enjoy God.

Ga 4:6
And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!"

We're not slaves, we're son's and friends of God. Children have the right to enjoy their father or more correctly, children have the natural desire to enjoy their father. I wouldn't necessarily say that it's a 'right' God gave us, it's more a natural inclination to enjoy the one we are in love with.



Ps103 -> RE: Do we have a right to enjoy God? (4/13/2008 11:23:23 PM)

I edited the poll so people can vote now.

(Make sure you check "no deadline" or fill in the date you want your poll to end, or it will default to ending immediately[;)])



1love1God1way -> RE: Do we have a right to enjoy God? (4/14/2008 1:52:23 AM)

I would say. . . an undeserved privilege.



FurGodWurLivin -> RE: Do we have a right to enjoy God? (4/14/2008 5:44:46 AM)

I guess really, rather than "Do we have the right to enjoy God" it should be more of "is it right to enjoy God?" Do we have the ability, allowance, and urging to enjoy God?

I would give an absolute Yes. Why? Because we are told that the greatest commandment is to Love God with everything we have. How can you love someone without ever enjoying them? Love rejoices in the truth according to 1st Corinthians 13, and nothing is more "truth" than God Himself. What I'm digging at is if everyone thinks it is okay to enjoy God. I'm relatively sure that most will give mental assent to this idea... yet so few seem to actually do it. In His presence there are pleasures forevermore... and because of the sacrifice of Christ we can come boldly into this presence. This is why I say that we have the right to enjoy God and even feel pleasure in Him... because He also feels pleasure in us.

Adam

((edit: Thanks for fixing the poll... I thought I had checked the "no deadline" box, but I guess I missed))



FurGodWurLivin -> RE: Do we have a right to enjoy God? (4/14/2008 5:58:44 AM)

quote:

The attitude of our hearts should be...

12 "How can I repay You, Lord for all Your goodness to me?" -Psalm 116

...not, "What pleasure can I get out of this?"

In cultivating hearts of gratitude, we will find joy!
I agree that we must be grateful for what God has done for us. I disagree that our entire heart attitude should be trying to "pay God back" because (A) we will never be able to and (B) Christ died to cancel the debt of sin... not to lump another one on. The question becomes, what do you call love that is motivated by a sense of debt? Temporal, shallow, and dissapating once the debt is paid. Rather than allowing Christ to heal us of our guilt and self-condemnation, we put ourselves into guilt of "now I owe God big time". It is true that He forgave us our debts... that should cause us to love Him more not feel guilty and hopeless.

Other than that, I would point out that a bondservant was one who had been freed of their master and then chose to serve that master for the rest of his life... not just a slave that had been bought.

I would gladly agree that this is all about and for Him. But if you are striving to attempt to please Him in your own power you will accomplish little else than wearing yourself out and getting bitter. We are supposed to be motivated by love (hence, it is involved in the two greatest commandments) because lovers will always outdo a worker. I believe it was Augustine that said "Love God and do whatever you please. For the soul that has been taught to love God will be taught by that same love to do nothing that might displease Him and leave nothing undone that might please Him." I would go so far as to say that enjoyment of God is essential to having a successful ministry that lasts beyond your desire to be a minister.

Paul wrote it in the epistles... you are no longer slaves, but sons. If the sons do not love and enjoy their father, they will accomplish little and even that will be done almost grudgingly. We should not be working for work's sake because that is a shortcut to a religous spirit. Rather, your works should be the evidence of your love and faith in God.

Adam



Kat_D -> RE: Do we have a right to enjoy God? (4/14/2008 9:32:32 AM)

quote:

What I'm digging at is if everyone thinks it is okay to enjoy God. I'm relatively sure that most will give mental assent to this idea... yet so few seem to actually do it.


And you know that, how? Everyone's personal relationship with God is...well, personal. How do you know what goes on during another's private time with God? You don't. It's strictly between them and the Lord.

If you are speaking of a public display, well, then yes, some of us are more conservative and reserved in that setting, but it doesn't mean we aren't experiencing joy in His presence.

Contrary to what some believe, laughing uncontrollably or dancing and rolling in the isles is not necessarily proof that one is joyful in their worship of the Lord. It only proves that they may look that way to others who are likeminded about that kind of public display.

Again, it is the Worshipee that should be receiving all the attention and focus, not the worshiper. We, imho, should fade and become small in the presence of God. Apparently, that quiet and demure spirit can be mistaken for a lack of joy in worship by some.



bluestone -> RE: Do we have a right to enjoy God? (4/14/2008 11:12:09 AM)

Enjoying the Lord can mean a LOT of different things.

If your idea of enjoyment disrupts a worship service, or makes it difficult for someone else to hear a sermon, then, no your right should not trample on someone else's .[>:]

If your idea of enjoying God involves some sort of sexual-romantic notion of Him, then get some help quickly.[:'(]

If your idea of enjoying God is praising Him, being THRILLED in your salvation, telling others of all He has done, knock yourself out.[:)]



1love1God1way -> RE: Do we have a right to enjoy God? (4/14/2008 12:39:44 PM)

Psalm 16:5-11.

The LORD is the portion of mine inheritance and of my cup: thou maintainest my lot. The lines are fallen unto me in pleasant places; yea, I have a goodly heritage. I will bless the LORD, who hath given me counsel: my reins also instruct me in the night seasons. I have set the LORD always before me: because he is at my right hand, I shall not be moved. Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope. For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Thou wilt show me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.



FurGodWurLivin -> RE: Do we have a right to enjoy God? (4/14/2008 5:04:47 PM)

quote:

And you know that, how? Everyone's personal relationship with God is...well, personal. How do you know what goes on during another's private time with God? You don't. It's strictly between them and the Lord.
What you do in your personal time with God has a PROFOUND effect on your public life. Just as you can tell the difference between between someone who smokes drugs or gets routinely drunk at their house from someone who doesn't, you can tell who enjoys God and who doesn't. Basically, if your relationship with God doesn't effect your relationship with people, one of them is not real.
quote:

If you are speaking of a public display, well, then yes, some of us are more conservative and reserved in that setting, but it doesn't mean we aren't experiencing joy in His presence.
Relax, I'm not talking about Charismatic worship meetings. I'm simply asking if we are allowed/urged/capable of enjoying God.
quote:

Contrary to what some believe, laughing uncontrollably or dancing and rolling in the isles is not necessarily proof that one is joyful in their worship of the Lord. It only proves that they may look that way to others who are likeminded about that kind of public display.

Again, it is the Worshipee that should be receiving all the attention and focus, not the worshiper. We, imho, should fade and become small in the presence of God. Apparently, that quiet and demure spirit can be mistaken for a lack of joy in worship by some.
Neither of which am I referring to, or willing to argue about in this thread. I am not talking about extrovertive personalities versus introvertive personalities. I'm asking if it is okay to enjoy God the way you enjoy being with your friends. So there is no need to start sounding defensive, or to start attacking the Charismatic church... my question is merely if it is okay, even good to actually ENJOY God.
quote:

If your idea of enjoying God is praising Him, being THRILLED in your salvation, telling others of all He has done, knock yourself out.
Okay............. but how about feeling pleasure being in God's presence? The fact is that God loves us infinitely more than a husband loves his wife... so shouldn't we be happier in our relationship with God than we ever are with our spouses? For some reason, the idea of allowing God to love us because we are and He made us is so uncomfortable to us that we feel a need to go out and do anything but feel it.

Adam



earthless -> RE: Do we have a right to enjoy God? (4/14/2008 5:31:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bluestone

Enjoying the Lord can mean a LOT of different things.

If your idea of enjoyment disrupts a worship service, or makes it difficult for someone else to hear a sermon, then, no your right should not trample on someone else's .[>:]

If your idea of enjoying God involves some sort of sexual-romantic notion of Him, then get some help quickly.[:'(]

If your idea of enjoying God is praising Him, being THRILLED in your salvation, telling others of all He has done, knock yourself out.[:)]


earthless approves the above post...



PROPHETSONG -> RE: Do we have a right to enjoy God? (4/14/2008 10:18:12 PM)

The scripture says that the joy of the Lord is our strength. We should have joy as a result of our relationship with God.
The Spirit spoke through Paul in Roman saying that the Kingdom of Heaven is not food or drink , but righteousness peace and joy in the Holy Ghost. This is the nature of the kingdom of God the Lord establishes in the hearts of those that believe.
Our relationship with God is based in God's own love, and love brings joy.
I we love a person, we will enjoy walking with that person, talking to that person, hearing from that person.
The song of Soloman deals specifically with the Lord's relationship to his bride {the Church}.
The Lord God of the universe is in love with his people and he enjoys expressing that and receiving love from his children.
As a child the sight of my father always filled me with excitement. I like manner we should be exited to be with our heavenly father.



FurGodWurLivin -> RE: Do we have a right to enjoy God? (4/15/2008 6:15:35 AM)

**Ding!** +100, prophetsong! Because God is love, His love is infinite... Because there is pleasure inherint in love, I would go so far as to say that we need to enjoy God if we claim to believe that He loves us.

Adam



SavedbyGrace2007 -> The questions Christians will ask! ; ) (4/17/2008 5:36:16 PM)

I voted "Yes." Why not?

quote:

I believe John Piper referred to this as "Christian Hedonism" and several others have referred to this as "Happy holiness".


I'm not a fan of Piper's and I haven't heard of those terms, so I'll take the question as it is.

quote:

Do you have a Scripture to back up the assertion that we have a right to enjoy God?


I think it sort of just "happens", does it not? Should we purposely stop ourselves from enjoying God then if it should not be in scripture . . . ???

quote:

We have no rights. We have been bought and paid for at an enormous price and because of that we are bondservants and are here to serve the One who owns us. We are to live to please God, to glorify Him, and give Him honor. In doing that we will have great joy because we our pleasing our Master. It's not about us, it's about Him.


To assume we won't have a reaction of some kind to enjoying God though is very limited understanding IMO. Do we have a right as in a DEMAND to enjoy God? No. But then I almost think it's a given as a believer to enjoy Him. Wouldn't it be odd not to?

I also think to phrase that it's not about "us" but Him in this question of enjoying Him also misses the point. God is Love (1 John 4:16). All good things (including enjoyment, I assume) come from God. The natural response IS to enjoy Him! Any logical person who is Spirit filled and understands would enjoy Him. I feel this is drifting into some kind of technicality here.

God taking pleasure in us, enjoying us and we enjoying Him go hand-in-hand between the God and the believer/Christ follower. This is what makes up a healthy, true RELATIONSHIP between Creator and created: the interchange.

Think also of a parent and a child. Doesn't your parent enjoy you and you enjoy your parent (if you have a healthy relationship with your earthly parent)?

Are there such things as SAD Christians who don't enjoy God? (And who aren't bothered by that?) I suppose there are . . . Maybe long ago in dark, medieval monasteries, I don't know.

quote:

...not, "What pleasure can I get out of this?"


I didn't take the question that way.

Interesting: I came upon recently text referring to Bernard of Clairvaux from the 12th century that I hadn't read before. Relating to this, (to sumarize/paraphrase) he mentioned the four stages of human growth in love towards God:

1 - Loving one's self for one's own sake.
2 - Loving God for one's own sake.
3 - Loving God for God's own sake.
4 - Loving one's self for God's sake.

This fourth and final stage (and I guess like Kubler-Ross' stages of mourning your feelings can shift among the stages) is the awareness of our importance to God and that enters into the divine enjoyment . . .

I thought it intriguing too how one starts out loving one's own self and then eventually progresses through the loop until you really do love (enjoy) yourself -- but now through God's eyes (as much as we can see through His eyes).

JMO (because it wasn't mentioned in this text) but I also suspect loving what God loves (taking enjoyment in what He enjoys) may very well fit into that fourth highest stage as well. But that's just my opinion . . .

quote:

Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom."
(2 Corinthians 3:17)


One of my favorite verses. Just had to quote it. [:)]

quote:

I would say. . . an undeserved privilege.


Well, I agree with that, I admit . . .

quote:

Do we have the ability, allowance, and urging to enjoy God?


You mentioned "allowance" and now that even moreso makes me think of a parent-child relationship. [:)] Enjoying Him is our "allowance" . . . whereas the wages of sin is death -- so I believe I'll take this allowance over that. LOL. [:D]

quote:

This is why I say that we have the right to enjoy God and even feel pleasure in Him... because He also feels pleasure in us.


I'm curious (just as much?) why exactly He finds pleasure in us when -- let's face it -- we've been largely disappointments. It all goes back to a parent-child relationship, but it's still intriguing I think. He REALLY must love us! [:)]

quote:

If your idea of enjoying God involves some sort of sexual-romantic notion of Him, then get some help quickly.


Not at all that I disagree with you . . . but relating to Christ, we are His bride (body). Why are we being called that? Why will there be a marriage supper someday? Because IMO we function as a bride, complete with our covenant relationship, the Father choosing the bride, the leaving of a gift for the bride by the bridegroom (the indwelling Holy Spirit) until He returns for the marriage, the "mansions" added on to the Father's house for the bride (you're going to live with Him forever after all . . . ), you will also take His name (Rev. 2:17, Rev. 3:12), etc.. Not of one flesh, but of one spirit in Christ we are . . . (1 Cor. 6:17, 1 Cor. 12:13, Eph. 2:18, Eph. 4:4, ). And, Jesus said compared to the spirit the flesh is nothing (John 6:36). He is in us - we are in Him. Then there are the parables referring to a wedding. I don't shy away from this idea, which is reality.

Yes indeed . . . I am (you are) His bride.

quote:

The fact is that God loves us infinitely more than a husband loves his wife... so shouldn't we be happier in our relationship with God than we ever are with our spouses?


See, yeah that's what I'm talking about! [:D]

quote:

The song of Soloman deals specifically with the Lord's relationship to his bride {the Church}.


An important book of the Bible to read in this context, yes.



God Bless. [:)]



Ezra -> RE: The questions Christians will ask! ; ) (4/18/2008 1:02:06 AM)

I dont' believe you will find a single Scripture that juxtaposes the words "right" and "enjoy" in connection our relationship to God.

We do have the "privilege" to "delight ourselves" in the Lord (Ps.37:4), but along with that privilege comes the responsibility to (1) "trust in the LORD" and (2) "do good" (Ps. 37:3).

There is also a subtle difference between "enjoying God" (which is hedonism) and "delighting ourselves" in God (which is worship). Hedonism is only promoted in heathenism.

Nowadays people stress their "rights" while ignoring their "responsibilities". This has become commonplace, and may have something to do with Christians talking about their "right" to enjoy God.

But our relationship is NOT a right, but a privilege, since what we have received from God is the gift of Himself, the gift of His Son, and the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Gifts are not given because of rights, but because of love. And we love Him, because He first loved us.



bob97 -> RE: The questions Christians will ask! ; ) (4/18/2008 1:30:44 PM)

quote:

We do have the "privilege" to "delight ourselves" in the Lord (Ps.37:4), but along with that privilege comes the responsibility to (1) "trust in the LORD" and (2) "do good" (Ps. 37:3).


Without assuming our responsibilities we cannot maintain fellowship with God and without that there is no delight in the relationship. Actually the term “assuming responsibility” to me is the wrong term because growing in my love for Christ is a joy…not a responsibility.

Bob



bluestone -> RE: The questions Christians will ask! ; ) (4/18/2008 2:08:26 PM)

What is the chief end of man?
Man’s chief end is to glorify God, and to enjoy him forever

I agree with the Westminster Catechism on that one.

However, we all seem to have different ideas of what that means.[&:]



PROPHETSONG -> RE: The questions Christians will ask! ; ) (4/19/2008 10:44:06 PM)

well said truth
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ezra

I dont' believe you will find a single Scripture that juxtaposes the words "right" and "enjoy" in connection our relationship to God.

We do have the "privilege" to "delight ourselves" in the Lord (Ps.37:4), but along with that privilege comes the responsibility to (1) "trust in the LORD" and (2) "do good" (Ps. 37:3).

There is also a subtle difference between "enjoying God" (which is hedonism) and "delighting ourselves" in God (which is worship). Hedonism is only promoted in heathenism.

Nowadays people stress their "rights" while ignoring their "responsibilities". This has become commonplace, and may have something to do with Christians talking about their "right" to enjoy God.

But our relationship is NOT a right, but a privilege, since what we have received from God is the gift of Himself, the gift of His Son, and the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Gifts are not given because of rights, but because of love. And we love Him, because He first loved us.



zoebob -> RE: The questions Christians will ask! ; ) (4/20/2008 8:53:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bluestone

What is the chief end of man?
Man’s chief end is to glorify God, and to enjoy him forever

I agree with the Westminster Catechism on that one.

That's what I was going to say.
Actually, it's not so much a right but the reason we were created.



Ezra -> RE: The questions Christians will ask! ; ) (4/20/2008 4:51:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: zoebob

quote:

ORIGINAL: bluestone

What is the chief end of man?
Man’s chief end is to glorify God, and to enjoy him forever

I agree with the Westminster Catechism on that one.

That's what I was going to say.
Actually, it's not so much a right but the reason we were created.


And if it is not a "right" then it is a privilege.

As to the wording of the Westminster Catechism, that is not an exact quotation from Scripture. It is a man-made approximation.

If you go through a Concordance and look up the word "enjoy" as used in the KJV (and the Westminster Catechism used the KJV) it either pertains to earthly things or "the pleasures of sin". Not once does Scripture say "enjoy God forever".



Page: [1] 2   next >   >>



Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.5 ANSI