A Jewish view of our origin. (Full Version)

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iSERVEaJEW -> A Jewish view of our origin. (4/13/2008 5:52:44 AM)


http://www.yashanet.com/library/missing_link.htm

I don't believe what this link teaches, but I think that there is some merit to it and I am investigating this idea. If what this link teaches is true, the evolution/creation stumbling block might be removed for some. I was adamant on the whole six day creation idea until I read this - now, I'm considering the possibility that the truth lies somewhere in the middle.



unclemonkey -> RE: A Jewish view of our origin. (4/13/2008 8:49:46 PM)

ORIGINAL:
quote:

If what this link teaches is true, the evolution/creation stumbling block might be removed for some. I was adamant on the whole six day creation idea until I read this

HERE is a better source.



iSERVEaJEW -> RE: A Jewish view of our origin. (4/13/2008 9:05:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: unclemonkey

ORIGINAL:
quote:

If what this link teaches is true, the evolution/creation stumbling block might be removed for some. I was adamant on the whole six day creation idea until I read this

HERE is a better source.

Perhaps THIS is even better.



drj11 -> RE: A Jewish view of our origin. (4/13/2008 9:15:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: unclemonkey

ORIGINAL:
quote:

If what this link teaches is true, the evolution/creation stumbling block might be removed for some. I was adamant on the whole six day creation idea until I read this

HERE is a better source.


Actually, here is a better source.



unclemonkey -> RE: A Jewish view of our origin. (4/13/2008 10:28:27 PM)

ORIGINAL:drj11
quote:

Actually, here is a better source.

This is rich. An atheist citing Catholic doctrine.

A Catholic might agree with you, but I am not Catholic.



drj11 -> RE: A Jewish view of our origin. (4/13/2008 10:33:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: unclemonkey

ORIGINAL:drj11
quote:

Actually, here is a better source.

This is rich. An atheist citing Catholic doctrine.

A Catholic might agree with you, but I am not Catholic.


Who says I'm atheist? I think literal interpretation of genesis is absurd... doesnt make me an atheist. It just means I have a modicum of common sense.



iSERVEaJEW -> RE: A Jewish view of our origin. (4/13/2008 10:34:14 PM)

unclemonkey - So, you seem to reject the idea that the universe is really old and living souls are less than 6,000 years old. Why? I would appreciate your own words instead of merely a link this time.



unclemonkey -> RE: A Jewish view of our origin. (4/13/2008 10:44:41 PM)

ORIGINAL: iSERVEaJEW
quote:

I would appreciate your own words instead of merely a link this time.

I prefer to give you Jesus’ words.
“But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.” – Mark 10:6



unclemonkey -> RE: A Jewish view of our origin. (4/13/2008 10:47:20 PM)

ORIGINAL: drj11
quote:

Who says I'm atheist?

Your posts give a strong impllication. If you are not an atheist then please tell us what your religion is.



drj11 -> RE: A Jewish view of our origin. (4/13/2008 10:48:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: unclemonkey

ORIGINAL: iSERVEaJEW
quote:

I would appreciate your own words instead of merely a link this time.

I prefer to give you Jesus’ words.
“But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.” – Mark 10:6


Problem is Monkey, words are not as meaningful as we like to think sometimes. Just ask a lawyer trying to interpret a poorly worded contract.

Just ask a few theologians trying to decipher the Bible. Legal language is carefully and meticulously crafted to clearly and precisely spell out intent and even still has interpretation problems. Unfortunately, the Bible has no such meticulous language. Fortunately, we have science to help us, but you choose to ignore it. There's not much to be done with people of your ilk, except fight them, and hope humanity has common sense enough to side with the position of reason.



drj11 -> RE: A Jewish view of our origin. (4/13/2008 10:50:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: unclemonkey

ORIGINAL: drj11
quote:

Who says I'm atheist?

Your posts give a strong impllication. If you are not an atheist then please tell us what your religion is.


I was raised in a devout Roman Catholic family, but am not part of organized religion at this point. I am not really decided on the existence of God, but do find it hard to fathom that there is not some purpose to life. I might be best described as a pantheist.



iSERVEaJEW -> RE: A Jewish view of our origin. (4/13/2008 11:03:50 PM)

This thread is for discussing the validity of the Jewish idea so what do you think?



unclemonkey -> RE: A Jewish view of our origin. (4/14/2008 9:03:56 AM)

ORIGINAL:drj11
quote:

I was raised in a devout Roman Catholic family, but am not part of organized religion at this point.

Then you don’t see Catholic doctrine as authoritative, so why would you expect others to do so.

quote:

I might be best described as a pantheist.

Pantheism is atheism. Both see the material universe as the ultimate reality.



unclemonkey -> RE: A Jewish view of our origin. (4/14/2008 9:38:11 AM)

ORIGINAL:drj11
quote:

quote:

“But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.” – Mark 10:6

Problem is Monkey, words are not as meaningful as we like to think sometimes.

How many different meanings can “from the beginning of the creation” have?
Do you suppose Jesus considered 15 billion years into the creation as part of “the beginning of the creation”? That makes no sense at all to anyone not desperately trying to make this verse fit a 15 billion year old creation.

Had Jesus said; "from the beginning of the creation of man" your objection would have merit, but He didn't.



DanJames -> RE: A Jewish view of our origin. (4/14/2008 4:54:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: theo_book

What's not to believe? It was God who said "Go to the ant thou sluggard; consider her ways and be wise." Can you really say you believe God sat around an infinite number of years prior to creating heaven and earth?
...
Genesis tells us God created the sun, moon, and stars, which are tools by which to MEASURE time. They are not time. Time had to exist for God to "be." One cannot exist outside of time.


Wow, dude, give it a rest. You've got your own thread to talk about this stuff.


Iserveajew, it looks like what is being said is that there was the creation of the world, billions of years, then the creation of Adam. I have no basis on which to argue that this is the "traditional" Jewish view, but I'm very skeptical of the fact that it was held by anyone other than the author of the source that they cited. But that is a baseless claim on my part.

As for the idea that the first chapter is a parable, I'd say that it is an outright fabrication if the universe proceeded as is claimed by modern Big Bang cosmology and evolution. God spoke the sun, moon, and stars into existence after fruit-bearing angiosperms (like apple trees) where already around for a whole day. Is the "Jewish Tradition" that apple trees evolved, THEN the earth's solar system was formed? Of course not. This article was clearly written by a person whose understanding of the first two chapters of Genesis is no better than a cursory ponderer of the Creation-Evolution controversy. He claims:
quote:


These six days of creation were understood to be six cycles, as mentioned above in the explanation of Rabbi Isaac of Acco’s calculations of the age of the universe. "Each of the six cycles of creation brought something new into the world. The fifth cycle was the one that brought forth life, and this took place around two and a half billion years ago.

And to the person who doesn't have the first 5 days memorized, this seems reasonable. Only with an understanding of how the universe is claimed to have taken shape by both sides can one realize that he just skipped over the entire argument against the Day-Age theory. Which is basically what this essay is. The "Jewish Tradition" as the author is claiming is the Day-Age theory.



Kames -> RE: A Jewish view of our origin. (5/10/2008 11:47:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: iSERVEaJEW

unclemonkey - So, you seem to reject the idea that the universe is really old and living souls are less than 6,000 years old. Why? I would appreciate your own words instead of merely a link this time.

for me the historical record is important, all else is objectionable speculation
and guess what? the bible, even under millennia of scrutiny, does well there because of its eye-witnessing nature
only true because of a single, supernatural author otherwise it would not have lasted
it's not mere mythologies but even mythologies are being reevaluated after the discovery of Troy about 200 years ago
and because of etymology and proto-indo-european studies [and culture] in case of Greek
but mainly because it makes sense, seeing evolution is not reality, if it were the case, the world would be a LOT different, marvel-like actually
one of the closest things to understanding God is Galactus
Kirby discussed his biblical inspirations for Galactus and the Silver Surfer, and the revolutionary aspects of the characters:

“My inspirations were the fact that I had to make sales. And I had to come up with characters that were no longer stereotypes. In other words I couldn't depend on gangsters anymore, I had to get something new. And of course I...for some reason, I went to the Bible. And I came up with Galactus. And there I was in front of this tremendous figure, who I knew very well, because I always felt him, and I certainly couldn't treat him the same way that I would any ordinary mortal...and of course the Silver Surfer is the fallen angel. And when Galactus relegated him to Earth he stayed on Earth...they were figures that have never been used before in comics. They were above mythic figures, and of course, they were the first gods.[5]

the scope of influence of the bible is immense, for good or evil, god or devil, many find what they want there
"recently" i learned about Tzimtzum and this generated some thoughts about God, Eternity, Power and Galactus provided great parallels with a "theory" i have about God's attributes



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