RE: Obama's Marxism? (Full Version)

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TomTurn -> RE: Obama's Marxism? (4/16/2008 3:32:38 PM)

quote:

Look Senator McCarthy, the Cold War's been over for 20 years, now. Everybody knows that Marxism is dead.


Know of a few million dead over the last 20 years who would disagree with you but then what do they matter, eh?



blessedinnyc -> RE: Obama's Marxism? (4/16/2008 3:46:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TomTurn
Know of a few million dead over the last 20 years who would disagree with you but then what do they matter, eh?

Know of tens of millions- if not one hundred million dead from before 20 years ago who still agree with me that it's essentially dead.



Jhud -> RE: Obama's Marxism? (4/16/2008 3:50:52 PM)

quote:

Know of tens of millions- if not one hundred million dead from before 20 years ago who still agree with me that it's essentially dead.


I think as a movement it is virtually non-existent; I think as a thought process, a framwork for thinking, it is alive and well in the minds of the left.



blessedinnyc -> RE: Obama's Marxism? (4/16/2008 4:18:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jhud
I think as a movement it is virtually non-existent; I think as a thought process, a framwork for thinking, it is alive and well in the minds of the left.

If that's true, fascism is alive and well in the minds of the right, as well. In reality, there are thought processes involved in both that don't necessarily imply the violent overthrow of government, but do have an effect on how the country is run.



Jhud -> RE: Obama's Marxism? (4/16/2008 4:21:43 PM)

quote:

If that's true, fascism is alive and well in the minds of the right, as well. In reality, there are thought processes involved in both that don't necessarily imply the violent overthrow of government, but do have an effect on how the country is run.


Actually, it does not follow necessarily that if a particular socio-economic philosophy continues to exist and influence the thinking of certain candidates, that therefore all socio-economic philosophies continue to exist and the thinking of certain candidates.

And I never said anything about the 'violent overthrow of the government', which Marx didn't advocate anyway.



TomTurn -> RE: Obama's Marxism? (4/16/2008 6:53:30 PM)

Marxism - The political and economic philosophy of Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels in which the concept of class struggle plays a central role in understanding society's allegedly inevitable development from bourgeois oppression under capitalism to a socialist and ultimately classless society.

....

Naw, none of that going on in the world.



blessedinnyc -> RE: Obama's Marxism? (4/16/2008 7:03:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TomTurn

Marxism - The political and economic philosophy of Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels in which the concept of class struggle plays a central role in understanding society's allegedly inevitable development from bourgeois oppression under capitalism to a socialist and ultimately classless society.

....

Naw, none of that going on in the world.

Class conflict doesn't necessarily imply Marxism. In Israel, many of the prophets railed against the rich "trampling on", "swindling", and "oppressing" the poor. These were written at least 2400 years before Marx's birth.



colliefan -> RE: Obama's Marxism? (4/16/2008 10:06:44 PM)

quote:

Everybody knows that Marxism is dead.


Tell that to people in Cuba who risk their lives to come the 90 miles to the coast of Florida, Why isn't the Pearl of the Antiles a workers paradise?



TomTurn -> RE: Obama's Marxism? (4/16/2008 10:48:20 PM)

quote:

Know of tens of millions- if not one hundred million dead from before 20 years ago who still agree with me that it's essentially dead.


Another product of public education?



Jhud -> RE: Obama's Marxism? (4/16/2008 11:29:51 PM)

quote:

Class conflict doesn't necessarily imply Marxism. In Israel, many of the prophets railed against the rich "trampling on", "swindling", and "oppressing" the poor. These were written at least 2400 years before Marx's birth.


But oddly they didn't encourage the poor to rise up and cast off their oppressors.



P31W -> RE: Obama's Marxism? (4/17/2008 8:20:59 AM)

quote:

God did not give us a spirit of fear, but its fear that is driving our decisions.


Not mine.



ken1906_4 -> RE: Obama's Marxism? (4/17/2008 9:36:52 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: P31W

quote:

God did not give us a spirit of fear, but its fear that is driving our decisions.


Not mine.


whatever you say [:D]



blessedinnyc -> RE: Obama's Marxism? (4/17/2008 10:26:20 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jhud
But oddly they didn't encourage the poor to rise up and cast off their oppressors.

Not violently, but they claimed that God was going to do it for them. In today's world, people would take small snippets of Isaiah's, Jeremiah's, and Amos's comments and claim that they were evil Marxists who were praying that God would overthrow the government.



Jhud -> RE: Obama's Marxism? (4/17/2008 11:08:31 AM)

quote:

Not violently, but they claimed that God was going to do it for them. In today's world, people would take small snippets of Isaiah's, Jeremiah's, and Amos's comments and claim that they were evil Marxists who were praying that God would overthrow the government.


The primary difference however between the Marxist view and the Biblical view (and the primary difference between someone like Sen. Obama and an economic conservative) is that Marxists view the problem as systemic - that is, if we can through revolution overthrow current economic and political systems we can solve the fundamental problems mankind faces.

The Biblical view always focuses on the heart and nature of man; only when the human heart changed, something no government or economic system can do, can there be real peace and justice; and that is what the Prophets of old called for, a turning away from those idols that inflame the baseness of human nature, and a return to the one true God who can take away our heart of stone and give us a heart of flesh; that is make us a people of compassion and justice.

Indeed, Sen. Obama reiterated this last night when he claimed the 'economic fairness' is what this country is all about - he shares with Marxists the idea that our purpose is primarily to impose egalitarianism, and the rest will follow.



colliefan -> RE: Obama's Marxism? (4/17/2008 1:02:43 PM)

quote:

In today's world, people would take small snippets of Isaiah's, Jeremiah's, and Amos's comments and claim that they were evil Marxists who were praying that God would overthrow the government.


Examples please. So the major an minor prophets were Marxists. Perhaps in Liberation Theology. This promotes radical elgalitarianism and class envy.



henny -> RE: Obama's Marxism? (4/17/2008 9:45:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jhud
Indeed, Sen. Obama reiterated this last night when he claimed the 'economic fairness' is what this country is all about - he shares with Marxists the idea that our purpose is primarily to impose egalitarianism, and the rest will follow.


This isn't really a uniquely "Marxist" idea, though. Lots of other social and economic theorists have advocated similar ideas in varying degrees without being Marxist. It's like saying Christianity and Islam are basically the same thing because they are both monotheistic. It's painting with a bit too broad of a brush.

Would you seriously argue that Obama is a "Marxist" though? (I'm guessing you wouldn't, which is why I ask).

I think labeling him as such is mostly just a nice bit of rhetoric. According to some conservatives anyone who supports anything other than a true flat tax and the most minimal amount of government programs is a tried and true "Marxist," which is obviously absurd.

American liberalism classically didn't grow out of Marxism (It's times like these that I miss "liberalguy." He used to be very good at setting people straight on this issue).



TomTurn -> RE: Obama's Marxism? (4/17/2008 10:26:19 PM)

quote:

This isn't really a uniquely "Marxist" idea, though


I agree but you can hit it by throwing a rock from there



henny -> RE: Obama's Marxism? (4/17/2008 11:15:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TomTurn

quote:

This isn't really a uniquely "Marxist" idea, though


I agree but you can hit it by throwing a rock from there


Maybe, but you can hit basically anything with a rock if it's as big as a barn.



Jhud -> RE: Obama's Marxism? (4/17/2008 11:34:09 PM)

quote:

This isn't really a uniquely "Marxist" idea, though. Lots of other social and economic theorists have advocated similar ideas in varying degrees without being Marxist. It's like saying Christianity and Islam are basically the same thing because they are both monotheistic. It's painting with a bit too broad of a brush.

Would you seriously argue that Obama is a "Marxist" though? (I'm guessing you wouldn't, which is why I ask).

I think labeling him as such is mostly just a nice bit of rhetoric. According to some conservatives anyone who supports anything other than a true flat tax and the most minimal amount of government programs is a tried and true "Marxist," which is obviously absurd.

American liberalism classically didn't grow out of Marxism (It's times like these that I miss "liberalguy." He used to be very good at setting people straight on this issue).


Well, I don't think he reads Das Kapital every night, but I would say on the spectrum of Presidential candidates that ever ran, he is about as close as it gets.



wing2000 -> RE: Obama's Marxism? (4/18/2008 12:57:44 AM)

quote:

Well, I don't think he reads Das Kapital every night, but I would say on the spectrum of Presidential candidates that ever ran, he is about as close as it gets.


Have you lost all historical perspective?



Jhud -> RE: Obama's Marxism? (4/18/2008 1:00:26 AM)

quote:

Have you lost all historical perspective?


Which perspective would that be?



wing2000 -> RE: Obama's Marxism? (4/18/2008 1:05:14 AM)

....and wasn't it John McCain who just a couple days ago said that Americans are fed up with "extravagant salaries" and golden parachutes for corporate executives.....

....be careful there John...you might be labled a Marxist! :0



Jhud -> RE: Obama's Marxism? (4/18/2008 1:11:00 AM)

quote:

....and wasn't it John McCain who just a couple days ago said that Americans are fed up with "extravagant salaries" and golden parachutes for corporate executives.....

....be careful there John...you might be labled a Marxist!


Well, compared to Obama John McCain is Adam Smith.



wing2000 -> RE: Obama's Marxism? (4/18/2008 1:27:33 AM)

quote:

Indeed, Sen. Obama reiterated this last night when he claimed the 'economic fairness' is what this country is all about - he shares with Marxists the idea that our purpose is primarily to impose egalitarianism, and the rest will follow



I'm not sure in what context Obama made his remarks....but I always thought fairness in America meant that any one, regardless of who they are or their background, could advance up the economic latter if they applied themselves (just as Obama himself has done). I thought fairness meant that CEO's would re-invest in their companies and their workers to ensure every one benefits from a company's success. In this age of coroporate greed and the sense that companies owe nothing to their home communities, states or even country, I can see how many people think America is loosing her economic fairness.

If that makes me a Marxist in your book, so be it :)



stamper_ben -> RE: Obama's Marxism? (4/18/2008 8:39:59 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: henny

American liberalism classically didn't grow out of Marxism (It's times like these that I miss "liberalguy." He used to be very good at setting people straight on this issue).

Maybe not, but the Marxists sure have attached themselves to American liberalism and are having an influence on it.



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