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[Poll]
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War in Iraq
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| We are in Iraq because of oil |
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| We are in Iraq to liberate the less fortunate |
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| We are in Iraq to protect Israel |
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| We are in Iraq to stop terrorists |
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| We are in Iraq for some other reason |
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Total Votes : 427
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(last vote on : 9/26/2008 12:04:25 AM)
(Poll will run till: -- )
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RE: Oh Really? - 4/13/2008 12:55:33 PM
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rlj
Posts: 1962
Joined: 4/14/2005
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quote:
- electricity and running water were available; they are not now
- children were able to go to school normally; now many cannot due to violence
- universities were open and youths were free to study; now many dare not due to violence, and academic staff have been threatened and some killed
- women were free to wear western clothing (such as jeans) and to work; now many are forced to stay home and there are Islamic militants who harass and even beat women who are in public not wearing full Islamic garb
- public violence was relatively low compared to now; muggings, kidnappings, rape were far lower than what they are now. Research the work of Baghdad morgues: activity all shot up after Saddam was taken out.
- Iraqi Christians were free to worship and to live out their faith in Jesus Christ; now many have been issued threats by Islamic militants to either convert to Islam or to flee their homes (this is a point I have made here several times since 2007 and if you wish I will link the original post I made on this; it is a post with several links proving this)
- Iraq was by and large a secular society; now there are Islamic militants with influence in the country
- Iraq was a weak (due to sanctions) but ultimately singular state; now it is a fractured country broken by internal strife (3 - yes, THREE - civil wars going on at once)
- out of a population of 25 million, 4 million have become refugees: 2 million fled to neighboring Arab states such as Egypt and Jordan, where they live in poverty and where they have few options for schooling their kids, feeding their families, and earning a decent wage; 2 million are refugees inside their own country. They have all fled the horrible, hellish violence generated AFTER THE FALL OF SADDAM HUSSEIN.
That's just the price of "freedom".
_____________________________
-Roger
This is who I'm voting for. He is from the same party I voted for last time. This is consistent with my belief in the failure of the two party system and my disgust with it.
http://www.baldwin08.com/#
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RE: Oh Really? - 4/14/2008 10:43:23 AM
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lightshineon
Posts: 3463
Joined: 4/11/2005
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I know, you guy's are not that blinded, atleast I hope. saddam was evil, he murdered, raped, stoled from thousands, maybe millions. His demonic sons raped and murdered many young virgin girls, they have proof. Have you ever watched a documentry on this man? Life had no meaning to him at all, he had no mercy, no compassion, except for his demon spawn, when they were killed. He murdered all those he was parniod about in his ruling party, calling them out one one by one, as they shouted they were loyal to him. He had acid vats. He mailed his SIL head to his daughter in a box. He executed people then charged their families money for it. I could go on and on. Life was no utopia for these people and you know it. It was an evil reign like Hitler, call me shrill, and whatever: point of fact, Hitler was his hero. I know, I just know you guy's know better than the lie, that life was better for the Iraq people before. If you think that, I wonder about everything that has been said.
quote:
ORIGINAL: rlj
quote:
- electricity and running water were available; they are not now
- children were able to go to school normally; now many cannot due to violence
- universities were open and youths were free to study; now many dare not due to violence, and academic staff have been threatened and some killed
- women were free to wear western clothing (such as jeans) and to work; now many are forced to stay home and there are Islamic militants who harass and even beat women who are in public not wearing full Islamic garb
- public violence was relatively low compared to now; muggings, kidnappings, rape were far lower than what they are now. Research the work of Baghdad morgues: activity all shot up after Saddam was taken out.
- Iraqi Christians were free to worship and to live out their faith in Jesus Christ; now many have been issued threats by Islamic militants to either convert to Islam or to flee their homes (this is a point I have made here several times since 2007 and if you wish I will link the original post I made on this; it is a post with several links proving this)
- Iraq was by and large a secular society; now there are Islamic militants with influence in the country
- Iraq was a weak (due to sanctions) but ultimately singular state; now it is a fractured country broken by internal strife (3 - yes, THREE - civil wars going on at once)
- out of a population of 25 million, 4 million have become refugees: 2 million fled to neighboring Arab states such as Egypt and Jordan, where they live in poverty and where they have few options for schooling their kids, feeding their families, and earning a decent wage; 2 million are refugees inside their own country. They have all fled the horrible, hellish violence generated AFTER THE FALL OF SADDAM HUSSEIN.
That's just the price of "freedom".
_____________________________
Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: Oh Really? - 4/14/2008 2:05:30 PM
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RichLP
Posts: 1635
Joined: 5/4/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lightshineon
I know, you guy's are not that blinded, atleast I hope. saddam was evil, he murdered, raped, stoled from thousands, maybe millions. His demonic sons raped and murdered many young virgin girls, they have proof. Have you ever watched a documentry on this man? Life had no meaning to him at all, he had no mercy, no compassion, except for his demon spawn, when they were killed. He murdered all those he was parniod about in his ruling party, calling them out one one by one, as they shouted they were loyal to him. He had acid vats. He mailed his SIL head to his daughter in a box. He executed people then charged their families money for it. I could go on and on. Life was no utopia for these people and you know it. It was an evil reign like Hitler, call me shrill, and whatever: point of fact, Hitler was his hero. I know, I just know you guy's know better than the lie, that life was better for the Iraq people before. If you think that, I wonder about everything that has been said.
Lightshineon:
Why did you ignore all those facts I listed about what daily life in Iraq is like now?
Why do you keep harping to Hitler, when Saddam is at worst a minor league tyrant if compared to Hitler?
Why do you ignore the fact that Saddam Hussein was an ally of the United States, that the Reagan administration supported him during the war w/ Iran, and that the very biological and chemical weapons you allude to were built in part thanks to ingredients sold to Iraq by US corporations, with the knowledge and authorization of the US Chamber of Commerce?
_____________________________
"We have removed an ally of Al Qaeda" - G.W. Bush lies to America and to the world, 5/1/2003
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Moqtada al-Sadr refuses Robert Gates' olive branch - 4/14/2008 2:10:28 PM
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RichLP
Posts: 1635
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US Defense Secretary Robert Gates had said that Moqtada al-Sadr "...was a significant political player due to his large following in Iraq’s Shiite community. Gates also called on Sadr to take part in the political process."
But al-Sadr rejected Gates' statement, branding him a terrorist and reaffirming that he will not work with the US occupation.
A political solution is as remote and out of reach as it ever was. And without one, the strife in Iraq will not be solved.
_____________________________
"We have removed an ally of Al Qaeda" - G.W. Bush lies to America and to the world, 5/1/2003
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RE: Oh Really? - 4/14/2008 2:15:00 PM
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lightshineon
Posts: 3463
Joined: 4/11/2005
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Hitler gassed people, Saddam gassed people, Sadam tried to get rid of the Kurds, by Gas, just as Hitler did. Hitler was Saddams hero, he would take the compliment of him being like Hitler a compliment. This monster and sons had rape houses, the SS raped Jews. see the line of reason her Rich? Hitler was his mentor, he loved the guy, and killed and tourtured just like Hitler. The people of Iraq were oppressed, gassed, you name it, and you act like they were living in peace, and love. Yeah. Why do you not read up on the man?
_____________________________
Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: Oh Really? - 4/14/2008 4:23:41 PM
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rlj
Posts: 1962
Joined: 4/14/2005
Status: online
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quote:
Hitler gassed people, Saddam gassed people, Sadam tried to get rid of the Kurds, by Gas, just as Hitler did.
The Nazis used the gas chambers to implement the final solution. The alleged Iraqi use of gas against the Kurds occured because in part because Halabja revolted against Iraq proper when they were in a state of war. When we supported him during that war it was common knowledge that chemicals and biological weapons were a part of his arsenal since we provided them the means though mustard gas isn't a big deal. Rich just pointed that out. I don't condone what Saddam did against the Kurds but the facts are that they 1)revolted against Saddam, 2)sided with the Iranians and 3)the Turks allegedly helped put down the insurrection.
quote:
The people of Iraq were oppressed, gassed, you name it, and you act like they were living in peace, and love.
After 8 years of war with Iran they had the highest standard of living of any nation in the region before they invaded Kuwait to. The only ones gassed were the ones who openly supported the Iranians. History doesn't condemn the Union army for the swath of destruction brought on the people of the south because of General Sherman's brutal tactics now does it?
I also assume that you are excluding the former US Rape facility in Abu Ghraib?
http://www.slate.com/id/2100014/
I also did a google search of Iraqi Rape Houses and on the first 3 pages of 10 I got nothing that had to do with Saddam's rape houses but still got 3 pages concerned with rape.
_____________________________
-Roger
This is who I'm voting for. He is from the same party I voted for last time. This is consistent with my belief in the failure of the two party system and my disgust with it.
http://www.baldwin08.com/#
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RE: Oh Really? - 4/14/2008 7:05:53 PM
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lightshineon
Posts: 3463
Joined: 4/11/2005
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It was his sons who were blown apart. If someone is so blind they think Saddam was not evil, then wow, I do not want to hear anything they have to say. Look up his sons when looking for rape kuesy, yuaeh who pecies were sold on e-bay, might be wrong spelling but his sons. It is funny no one condones this stuff, like the Kurds, but makes excuses. The man was like Hitler, get on the History channel, and serch saddam, and learn something.
_____________________________
Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: Oh Really? - 4/14/2008 10:15:29 PM
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lightshineon
Posts: 3463
Joined: 4/11/2005
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Another thing if saddam H was such a good man, why did his own people pull down his statue, while dancing in the streets? Do you see hisn face on the Iraq postage stamp? He is in hell with Hitler his hero, clinging to the Q'uran. Do I take joy in that no, I do not but how can you say this man was not evil? The war is a good thing, as far as wars can go. None are pleasent, that is why they say war is H***.
_____________________________
Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: Oh Really? - 4/14/2008 11:04:10 PM
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wing2000
Posts: 1051
Joined: 4/14/2005
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quote:
Another thing if saddam H was such a good man,
...why did the United States treat him favorably during the 1980's?
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RE: Oh Really? - 4/14/2008 11:06:44 PM
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lightshineon
Posts: 3463
Joined: 4/11/2005
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Are you saying he was a good man too?
quote:
ORIGINAL: wing2000
quote:
Another thing if saddam H was such a good man,
...why did the United States treat him favorably during the 1980's?
_____________________________
Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: Oh Really? - 4/14/2008 11:24:03 PM
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wing2000
Posts: 1051
Joined: 4/14/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
Are you saying he was a good man too?
quote:
ORIGINAL: wing2000
quote:
Another thing if saddam H was such a good man,
...why did the United States treat him favorably during the 1980's?
Not at all.
The point was, our nation supported this tyrant for several years...all in the name of our national security interest. That's what countries do....including our own. Will you acknowledge this point?
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RE: Oh Really? - 4/14/2008 11:29:15 PM
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lightshineon
Posts: 3463
Joined: 4/11/2005
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Do you acknowledge, Iraq is better off without. Saddam H? And just for you, we treated Saddam nice in the eighties if you say so?
quote:
ORIGINAL: wing2000
quote:
Are you saying he was a good man too?
quote:
ORIGINAL: wing2000
quote:
Another thing if saddam H was such a good man,
...why did the United States treat him favorably during the 1980's?
Not at all.
The point was, our nation supported this tyrant for several years...all in the name of our national security interest. That's what countries do....including our own. Will you acknowledge this point?
< Message edited by lightshineon -- 4/14/2008 11:35:38 PM >
_____________________________
Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: Oh Really? - 4/14/2008 11:38:11 PM
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wing2000
Posts: 1051
Joined: 4/14/2005
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quote:
Do you acknowledge, Iraq is better off without. Saddam H?
That remains to be seen....and in any case, the only people who can answer that are the Iraqis.
quote:
we treated Saddam nice in the eighties if you say so?
Read here:
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/index.htm
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RE: Oh Really? - 4/15/2008 10:02:11 AM
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RichLP
Posts: 1635
Joined: 5/4/2005
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Reading up on Saddam Hussein:
Hussein came to power in Iraq and the US had no qualms about his rise to power. As I’ve stated here ad nauseum, the US under President Ronald Reagan considered Baath Iraq an ally; the now-notorious photograph of Donald Rumsfeld shaking hands with Hussein proves that much.
I will say it once again: with the US Chamber of Commerce’s authorization and awareness, American corporations sold elements which the Iraqi military later used to make biological and chemical weapons. The Reagan administration did nothing to protest or to stop Saddam’s use of those horrible gases on civilians any more than the Bush administration has done anything to prevent abuses of Iraqi civilians by US troops (which I am not saying happens with every soldier, but it does happen, and it did happen).
No, Lightshineon, there is no line of reasoning other than that you’re trying to compare two despots to make a moral case for the deposition of one because the other was so terribly evil. Hitler was a monster, but Hitler’s crimes were against the Jews of Europe, and they were in a far larger and more organized scale than anything Hussein ever did.
Some Americans are so quick to make Hitler comparisons that they fail to understand, to research, and to examine each regional/historical context. There was never anything in Baath Iraq that was similar in scale to the Nazi Holocaust. Saddam Hussein was a brutal dictator and he used deadly violence against political rivals, but to say Hussein ordered the wholesale slaughter of millions of Iraqis is a convenient myth created by those who wanted Americans to buy the now debunked rationales for war against Iraq – WMDs, ties to 9/11 and Al-Qaeda, “Hussein was an Arab Hitler.”
Nonsense, lies, falsehoods.
Lightshineon: we say Hussein had US support, you say we think Saddam was not evil? I don’t quite follow, and I think you’re making logical leaps here.
Again, no one said Saddam Hussein was a good man, but it cannot be denied as RLJ stated that under Saddam, Iraq was an advanced, modern country with a high standard of living – which the 1991 and 2003 American-led wars have all but erased.
After the 1991 war ended, a team from the UN visited Iraq and reported that the air way conducted by the USAF had a “near apocalyptic impact" on Iraq and had made Iraq into a “pre-industrial age nation” (and until January 1991, that same Iraq had been “rather highly urbanized and mechanized society.”). As for now, it’s no news Iraq is one of the world’s most failed states.
As for talking about war being hell, it’s so arrogant of us here in America to talk about how war is hell. Yes, Lightshineon, your husband is a soldier and I salute him for that. But I believe that unless we have a loved one who died or was injured in combat, who are we to talk about how war is hell?
It’s not our cities getting hit by bombs and rockets; it’s not our children being kidnapped at school or forced to stay home; it’s not our sisters, daughters, mothers, and wives who can’t go to work anymore and who are forced to wear Islamic garb. It’s not our houses that have little electricity and running water. Our toilets aren’t broken. Our neighborhoods aren’t overflowing with unexploded ordnance or large puddles, festering with contamination. Cholera isn’t breaking out in our towns. It’s not millions of our countrypersons fleeing for their lives. It’s not our country that is a failed state. It’s not our nation that got invaded and occupied. It’s not our homeland that is wrecked by a civil war that has killed hundreds of thousands. Our home isn’t a failed state.
So who are WE to say to nonchalantly, “war is hell?”
I hope Jay Leno is made to answer to God when he stands before judgment for saying after Hussein was deposed about those jokes on national TV to loud cheers from the audience about America “kicking another country’s (expletive for toosh).” Invading another country is not comedy material and we comfy-living Americans should know better, given we had 9/11.
_____________________________
"We have removed an ally of Al Qaeda" - G.W. Bush lies to America and to the world, 5/1/2003
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60 dead in Baghdad today - 4/15/2008 12:17:28 PM
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RichLP
Posts: 1635
Joined: 5/4/2005
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A deadly Tuesday in Baghdad
_____________________________
"We have removed an ally of Al Qaeda" - G.W. Bush lies to America and to the world, 5/1/2003
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RE: Oh Really? - 4/15/2008 12:19:48 PM
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lightshineon
Posts: 3463
Joined: 4/11/2005
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Yes Saddam killed on a large scale, I remember in the nineties watching the news and the bloated body of a small baby with its eyes open was among the bodies of many. Hussien was evil, and Hitler was his mentor, he wanted to be like him. The Bath party was no different than the SS, or Hie Republican Gaurd. his sons raped and murder young girls. What do you have to do in your eyes to be considered evil? Go reaserch on the History Channel, under BIOs. You are not the only one who searched things out with due respect.
I can say war is H***, you in fairness do not know what I have lost, or who, and with that being said, because of our military we have not as of yet, suffered the ills of war, because of people like my husband willing to lay their lives down for our freedom. reanJay Leno was out of line, but, he often is about many things, he is inappropriate you must know that if you watch him at all. I will stand by my view Saddam was evil, like Hitler. I have watched documentries, read about him, and come on some things are a given. His own people pulling down his statue dancing in the streets, he was less than loved by them. Even at his hanging, his people were sceaming curses on him, that should have not happened, though he was screaming back at them.
People danced in the streets at his death, Iraq is free from him, and with our forces, and our prayers they will get things on track.
_____________________________
Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: Oh Really? - 4/15/2008 4:24:28 PM
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Leslie_JnJs_mom
Posts: 933
Joined: 9/6/2007
Status: offline
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I once got an email that said something to the effect that the big mistake Bush made when deciding to go to war was thinking that this nation would care about anything besides what a trip to the mall costs. They were comparing WW2 and how this nation rallied around our troops, even though times were much tougher then they are now. Sad sad sad. Personally I think it is easy to think we need to get out when we wont be the ones to suffer the fallout when terrorists take over Iraq if we leave before the government is stable.
_____________________________
<------- Jessica and I had so much fun with grandma!
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RE: Oh Really? - 4/15/2008 4:26:56 PM
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lightshineon
Posts: 3463
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote]ORIGINAL: 2monkeysmom
I once got an email that said something to the effect that the big mistake Bush made when deciding to go to war was thinking that this nation would care about anything besides what a trip to the mall costs. They were comparing WW2 and how this nation rallied around our troops, even though times were much tougher then they are now. Sad sad sad. Personally I think it is easy to think we need to get out when we wont be the ones to suffer the fallout when terrorists take over Iraq if we leave before the government is stable.
[/quote]
Yes, I agree, what happens when we just pull out. That is even doing the Iraq people bad. I do not understand why people are against the war. I really do not.
_____________________________
Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: Oh Really? - 4/15/2008 4:34:36 PM
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Leslie_JnJs_mom
Posts: 933
Joined: 9/6/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lightshineon
quote]ORIGINAL: 2monkeysmom
I once got an email that said something to the effect that the big mistake Bush made when deciding to go to war was thinking that this nation would care about anything besides what a trip to the mall costs. They were comparing WW2 and how this nation rallied around our troops, even though times were much tougher then they are now. Sad sad sad. Personally I think it is easy to think we need to get out when we wont be the ones to suffer the fallout when terrorists take over Iraq if we leave before the government is stable.
Yes, I agree, what happens when we just pull out. That is even doing the Iraq people bad. I do not understand why people are against the war. I really do not.
I have heard too many soldiers who are home on vacation or for good say that many in Iraq are happy we are there. Many soldiers there say we need to stay here and finish this or all this work all the soldiers who died will all be for nothing. I think the liberal media that is opposed to the war find the ones who are not happy who think we should not be there and broadcast that. For some in this country that is all they hear. They never get to hear the stories of Schools that are now working, how people now have the right to protest in the streets if they want to. One person even said that the bomb do not scare these people like we think it would. They grew up with this, they are used to it. Sad but our objective is to stablize the country. I do believe there is a civil war going on right now over there. The terrorist nations are not helping of course.
That speech after 9/11 President Bush said this was going to be a long fight and it would not be easy. Everyone seemed to be behind him then. I guess they did not take him seriously.
_____________________________
<------- Jessica and I had so much fun with grandma!
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RE: Oh Really? - 4/15/2008 4:39:14 PM
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lightshineon
Posts: 3463
Joined: 4/11/2005
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I know people do not understand that this can be a good thing, even though war is never good, but good can be achieved from it. If we leave it will be a house of cards waiting to fall.
quote:
ORIGINAL: 2monkeysmom
quote:
ORIGINAL: lightshineon
quote]ORIGINAL: 2monkeysmom
I once got an email that said something to the effect that the big mistake Bush made when deciding to go to war was thinking that this nation would care about anything besides what a trip to the mall costs. They were comparing WW2 and how this nation rallied around our troops, even though times were much tougher then they are now. Sad sad sad. Personally I think it is easy to think we need to get out when we wont be the ones to suffer the fallout when terrorists take over Iraq if we leave before the government is stable.
Yes, I agree, what happens when we just pull out. That is even doing the Iraq people bad. I do not understand why people are against the war. I really do not.
I have heard too many soldiers who are home on vacation or for good say that many in Iraq are happy we are there. Many soldiers there say we need to stay here and finish this or all this work all the soldiers who died will all be for nothing. I think the liberal media that is opposed to the war find the ones who are not happy who think we should not be there and broadcast that. For some in this country that is all they hear. They never get to hear the stories of Schools that are now working, how people now have the right to protest in the streets if they want to. One person even said that the bomb do not scare these people like we think it would. They grew up with this, they are used to it. Sad but our objective is to stablize the country. I do believe there is a civil war going on right now over there. The terrorist nations are not helping of course.
That speech after 9/11 President Bush said this was going to be a long fight and it would not be easy. Everyone seemed to be behind him then. I guess they did not take him seriously.
_____________________________
Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: Oh Really? - 4/15/2008 4:41:57 PM
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TheosCentric
Posts: 1905
Joined: 2/26/2006
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lightshineon, do you believe that we were told the truth for going to war in Iraq?
_____________________________
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God at the Center - Latest post - John 3:16 conference?
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RE: Oh Really? - 4/15/2008 4:43:50 PM
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stamper_ben
Posts: 10886
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lone Star State
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheoCentric
lightshineon, do you believe that we were told the truth for going to war in Iraq?
That the dozens of cease fire resolutions over a dozen years from the UN were ignored? Yes.
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We will be known as His by the love we show one another.
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RE: Oh Really? - 4/15/2008 4:45:28 PM
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lightshineon
Posts: 3463
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Yes, from the information they had at the time. I do believe there Weapons of Mass Destruction, that were moved around.
quote:
ORIGINAL: TheoCentric
lightshineon, do you believe that we were told the truth for going to war in Iraq?
_____________________________
Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: Oh Really? - 4/15/2008 5:01:23 PM
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TheosCentric
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Really? Where are they? That and where is the proof that Iraq was an ally of Al Quaida? All reasons for going to war in Iraq have proven false.
Anything else?
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"Missions exists because worship doesn't." -- John Piper, Let the Nations be Glad
God at the Center - Latest post - John 3:16 conference?
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