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RE: Native American Christians? - 4/16/2008 10:53:25 AM
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doinkdom
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In many historical accounts, you will find some hints of the Cherokee people being a remnant of the Hebrew people from the bible.
I have no clue what is and what isn't accurate, but it's interesting from a purely historical account.
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RE: Native American Christians? - 4/16/2008 3:30:57 PM
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cherokeehippie
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I read Thomas Mail's book, too. And it really blew me away to see the comparisons between the Cherokee feasts and the Feasts of Israel. I think maybe Cherokees differ in opinion on things, when it comes to these things.. LOL I'm shy and hestitant to talk about this stuff, since I'm still learning...I went to a Native christian gathering and was talking a little and it got on this topic, and a certain Cherokee guy, that I know...he mc's powwows, told me of a Cherokee elder (I can't remember his name) who believes that Cherokee are descendents of Israel....I've wondered about this and figured...in Mail's book, he says that there were two different groups in hte tribe when it came to Beliefs...One Creator verses worship of sun, moon, etc. But others say Mail is wrong...that all Cherokee believed in One Creator, anyway....
What's interesting is an archaeological discovery in Tennessee back in the 1800's of a tablet under the head of a skeleton...it turned out to be paleo-Hebrew, meaning "A comet of Judah"...that is a title that refered to Bar Khoba, a Jewish revolt leader against the Romans in 135AD.. They call this tablet the Bat Creek tablet. There were also some bronze(or brass...I get the two mixed up) bracelets...scientists tested the alloy and it turned out it was made like the Romans ...and had a nonnative material in it...
Another story!!! I know a lady here in the town I live in...she is a rock hound and she came across 12 flat stones (she won't tell me where she found them)..somewhere in Arkansas...Some of the stones, you can make out letters of some kind...(I can read Hebrew)...one of the tablets looked like it had in Hebrew, "Utensil" she had showed it to a professor and it looked like Hebrew to him, too.
However, the phoenicians, and nephilim, and others were here, too, so there was both the influence of idolatry, too, so you have (in my opinion, both the Israelites and pagan coming and bringing both)....I ran into a native guy one time, who was really into giants and the stories of giants in his tribe's history....he had a new agey european girlfriend and they freaked some christian native friends of mine out....I was at a knap in(a gathering where people get together and learn to flintknap arrowheads and other native/primitive crafts)...I hung out with two christian natives...one of whom is Apache and a direct descendent of Geronimo! After the native giant obsessed guy and his new age girlfriend walked off, one of my friends turned and said "too many vision quests!!"
The reason I find that native guy's interest in giants significant, is because biblically, the giants were nephilim, the offspring of fallen angels and human women (genesis 6:4)....demons are really dead nephilim...fallen angels is a different entity from the demons.
One story that I find interesting in Thomas Mails' book, and I've heard it told by other cherokee, too, ...in fact there is a cherokee author, I can't think of his name right off...he has a whole series of books on this...
That at one time, there were a class of ruling priests over the people...they started being abusive, and demanded human sacrifices and forced themselves upon the women, etc....the people rose up and overthrew these abusive priests! I was at a gathering where the focus was on diffusionism (the theory that there was more interaction going on between the new world and the old than is acknowledged in mainstream science)...and I told this story and a lecturer told me that the algonguins have this same story!!! It blew me away!!!! See, and I know some will cringe on the topic of burials being uncovered....a sensitive subject in Native circles...because of the white man's abuse and insensitivity of native burials..robbing them, etc)...but they have found that the mounds...contain giant skeletons 7 or 8 ft tall with a phoenican type script tablet beside them...these were in Ohio...the regular sized skeletons happened to be the native skeletons, but the giant skeletons were a totally different dna from the native! My theory?? The nephilim(after the flood, there was another episode of fallen angels going into women....Remember Og of Bashan and Goliath are AFTER the flood) They descended upon Mt. Hermon and made their way in the Bashan (golan heights area) and Lebanon...and the mystery religions played a major part in that area, besides starting in Babylon, then making its way to Greece, Roman, etc. I believe that just as the LORD had the Gospel to be spread over the world...so, too, the enemy had his message to be spread over the earth, thru the mystery religions....I believe understanding all of this, will cause one to have their eyes opened to what is really going on in our world today...with hte big corporations, etc, the so called political and industrial elite, illuminati, etc. There are native stories---especially the Paiutes out in Nevada...that tell about giants who were cannibals and that the Paiutes killed...what's interesting is that these giants had red hair, six fingers on each hand and double rows of teeth...Scripture tells of one giant that had six toes on each foot and six fingers on each hand. My theory is...that those abusive priests were phoencian nephilim who abused and made themselives rulers over all of the tribes...maybe even had their headquarters at Cahokia or in Ohio...and all the tribes as one rose up and overthrew them....of course I may be wrong....I hope this theory of mine, doesn't offend anyone.
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RE: Native American Christians? - 4/16/2008 3:34:27 PM
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doinkdom
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Theories just that...theories unless proven otherwise
I mean the American Indian got to this country somehow before everyone else  
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RE: Native American Christians? - 4/16/2008 3:43:27 PM
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cherokeehippie
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I'm not into "Dancing with Snakes" LOL....I never like snake handling churches!! I yearned to worship Abba native style and at a christian powwow in Oklahoma, I danced in the circle while Jonathan Maracle sang "Ride the Wind"...a Native minister encouraged us to break out of tradition (just as there is traditions of men in churches, inhibitation from worshipping the Lord freely, so too, unfortunately there's that in Native circles, powows, etc) and to worship the LORD any how we felt led to...don't be bound...well, I got up...this mixed Cherokee hippie, and I twirled around the circle with my arms out like an eagle...at first I was afraid of what the others would think, but I focused on worshipping Abba....to my surpised, the ladies in thier shawls timdly started copying me...spreading their arms out...it was awesome!! Later that night, I was one of the few honored in a certain way....
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RE: Native American Christians? - 4/16/2008 3:45:25 PM
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cherokeehippie
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No no...i'm not saying Natives didn't get here...I'm just saying that there was interaction between natives and other people...even the assistant chief Chad Smith of the Oklahoma Cherokee, I bought a book of his, and he some stories like this, too...there was one story of african people coming nad the cherokee doing battle with the african people, etc.
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RE: Native American Christians? - 4/16/2008 11:08:52 PM
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PaleHawkWoman
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I am Cherokee and still practice my traditional culture. We are monotheists, and always have been. We knew of Creator-Son long before any whites came over here because the Nanyehi, the Immortal Ones, came and told us of His birth, and 33 years later of His death and resurrection. We honor all of creation as sacred, and treat each and every thing with the respect it is due because of Who it belongs to. Yeah, some of our stories are difficult for outsiders to understand, and that is a cultural thing which in many cases cannot be translated into another language or made understandable to another culture's point of reference.
One of our names for the Creator translates as The Three Eternal Flames, which is- get ready for this, folks- the Trinity! We also refer to Him as the Almighty, the Giver, The Breath of Life, The Heaven Chief, Grandfather, The Sacred, The Ancient One, and several others. Many names, one God.
Yes, we do believe that everything has a spirit, and thus approach everything with reverence and respect. We use things with caution, use only what we need, and put back. Even in Psalms, does it not speak of the rocks singing? How could they sing if they have no spirit? When I was a child, I had a waking dream or vision in which I heard the voices of everything around me, the wind, the Earth, the hills, the water, the trees and each leaf, each blade of grass, each creature, each rock, the clouds- everything had its own voice, its own song and each song was different from every other- each its own melody and yet perfect harmony to all the others, and each praising and thanking Creator. It was more beautiful than any human singer, choir, and orchestra could ever be. I can still hear it from time to time when I am stilled and at peace in my spirit.
Actually the best way to find out what we Native believers actually believe is to make our acquaintence and see for yourself. Want to know what our traditional beliefs are? Spend some time with us and ask. Our traditional elders are some of the most spiritually humble people you will ever meet, and our people have alot to share with others. Consider this, we have suffered a holocaust for over 500 yrs, and yet still we are here. Yeah, we have lost bits and pieces of our cultures but we have retained a lot more than most folks might think. Inspite of every effort by the invading culture to remake us in their image, we remain true to the image the Creator Himself made us in so as to reflect His relationship to us.
As for Jonathan Maracle, who is a friend of mine, and other Native believers who minister musically within our culture, this is music for Native people and may not be everyone's cup of tea. That's ok. I can hardly stand most Christian pop as is played on most Christian radio stations, and am not a huge fan of Southern Gospel either. Yet I respect that other people do like it and are ministered to by it. No problem- we Native people do not fight over religion and never have.
Pow-wow songs aside, music for Native people is an act of worship and creates a sacred space for people to share in the experience, which is one reason we do not permit people to videotape or record ceremonial songs and dances, and oftimes exclude outsiders for that reason. The experience is for those present - not for others who are not there to view as a spectacle or appropriate as entertainment. It is, metaphorically,
"church" for us and the drum is an altar. The beat of the drum represents the heartbeat of the Creator to which all things dance, and each step is prayer, praise, and offering.
I have never thought of Native people of any tribe as being "wild". We have always been civilized peoples, and willing to share everything we have with others. Greed, dishonesty, abuse of women and children, and taking the Lord's name in vain were not known over here before 1492. Our languages have no profanities in them, either, and have a far richer vocabulary of relationship than English or many other languages do. But if you consider living close to the land and being sensitive to the seasons and changes, to the habits of the critters, and understanding the part you have in relationship to all that is around you, then I guess we are wild, and I thank God for it. There is nothing more awesome or humbling than realizing just how much life is above, beneath, around, and within oneself, and how much greater and more awesome the One who made it in the beginning and makes it all new each day.
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RE: Native American Christians? - 4/16/2008 11:34:54 PM
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cherokeehippie
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One time I went in a cave...exploring...and it was real dark and I got scared...lol...I then sat down, turned out my flashlight and it was soooo quiet, that I actually heard music! That's right! I actually heard music...the faint sound of music...I knew it was the rocks...the cave that was singing Praise to the Creator! It made me think of when Jesus told the pharisees, (after they rebuked him for the children praising him...excited, etc) that if they were silent, then the ROCKS would CRY out!!
Another time, I was traveling on the road, and it seemed that every time I passed by pine trees, I could sense them singing...I could actually sense them praising Creator, just being joyful in being pine trees!
That's how I believe Abba would have us in worship...not afraid of how others see us...but to be like a little child before HIM and grateful that He created us...I'm not much for much christian pop or southern gospel either ;) though I do love folksy hippie christian type music...like the Enter the WOrship Circle cds..espeically the first one that 100 portraits and Waterdeep did...as well as Native worship, Jonathan Maracle, and BIll Miller... and Israeli music.
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[Deleted] - 4/16/2008 11:53:30 PM
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RE: Native American Christians? - 4/17/2008 1:17:32 AM
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PaleHawkWoman
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Hate to tell ya this Tall One, but as far as cruelty to enemies and pagan pratices go, Europeans still had us beat hands down as they had better weapons and torture devices with which to dispatch those they considered enemies.
I have friends who are Dine'(Navajo and Apache both call themselves this) and no mention of blood drinking or cannibalism as part of ritual has come across in conversation. However, there are stories of cannibalism during famines in the distant past. It has been shown that there was a cult from the Aztecs which infiltrated some of the Hopi and Zuni ancestors and this cult brought with it human sacrifice and cannibalism. At the same time, what would you call the Inquisition and the Salem Witch Trials? Were not people tortured and put to death in horrible ways to please God by "purging" the land of heretics and non-believers? I doubt God was pleased, and by no stretch of the imagination could anyone examine the Gospels and call this behavior Christ-like either.
Take a look at our society today- abortion, gangs and organized crime, corporations ripping off millions from stockholders, employees, and retirees, people behaving badly then posting it on You-Tube, class warfare, racism, domestic violence, promiscuity, and people who are so tuned into the internet yet unable to connect with their fellow human beings, the increasing filth and violence in the media. Look carefully and tell me wht is civilized about all of that? We have greater technology and less respect, more knowledge and less understanding. We are, quite frankly, devolving into barbarism because we have become consumed with what all we have and forgotten who we are.
No people is perfect, no people can say to the others, "I am the acme of God's creation- be like me!" Nobody can claim they know the mind of God or that they speak for Him. We all have parts of His image, like fragments of a mirror. What I have wil be somewhat different that what you have. But if we all place our pieces in the mosaic, we get a better picture of Him and a better understanding of His reflection in each and everyone of us.
As far as where the voices in my vision came from, I DO know the difference between good and evil spirits because I learned how to listen for His Spirit to tell me. Do I believe in Jesus? Very much. Do I believe my culture is demonic and must be chucked for the fallen culture of the mainstream society? Absolutely not. Is everything in my traditional culture of God? No and that's the Holy Spirit's role to show me where weeding out and redeeming needs to take place. Same as for anyone else.
Human beings are, well, human. We each have our strengths and weaknesses, our virtues and faults, our triumphs and failures, our talents and ineptitudes, both individually and corporately as tribes, nations, or cultures. We all mess up, we all sin, we all engage in acts of stupidity, cruelty, and just plain evil. We all also rise above and beyond, shine with goodness, show surprising creativity and ingenuity, compassion, and altruism. Nobody is perfect, but neither is anyone beyond redemption so long as there is one single spark of the desire for that Presence that is so much more than this life still present in the spirit. That's both the blessing and bane of humanity, that we are so fallible and know so albeit grudgingly.
The mystery of humanity may reflect it dimly, but does reflect the Greater Mystery that is the Almighty. Ours is the fractured reflection, tho, and only made whole in right relation to God. That is our daily journey and struggle, the steep and difficult path, the mountains and valleys we must navigate every moment of every day. He gives to each people the ways He wants this to be done, in the ceremonies, songs, and sacred ways and puts in the person's souls the desire to follow that way- what "speaks" to the spirit in worship. I go to water in the mornings as worship, you get on your knees. I light a smudge or offer tobacco, you light a candle. I use an eagle or hawk feather, you may use a tallit. I dance to the drum, you dance to a worship band.
His covenant with each person and each people group must be respected by others, and by respect I mean "refrain from interference with" as much as I do "admired or reverenced". His covenants place boundaries which are not to be trespassed upon by others so that His presence and authority within the person's or people's territory is not usurped. That is one thing most Native people understand, the concept of respecting boundaries and upholding protocols. Conflict ensues where trespass occurs, both physically and sprirtually. His covenant with my people is different than with yours or someone else's, and neither is inferior to the other.
We may not understand one another's culture or how each views our relationship with the Creator and creation, and maybe we aren't meant to. Personally I'm ok with that, that there are things that are beyond my ability to comprehend. Part of faith is being able to accept the mysteries that will not be solved in one's lifetime or in this life period. That too is something most Native folks believe.
More later. I gott go to bed.
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RE: Native American Christians? - 4/17/2008 1:43:38 AM
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faith_alone
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This is an interesting thread. I was on a mission trip last summer in Anadarko, OK. We did some construction work for a community center there. Anyways, the directors father was a pastor at an Indian church just outside town. Now, let me clarify "Indian church". This was a Baptist church whose congregation was Indian. These people were from the Kiowa tribe. This pastors' whole focus is on spreading the gospel to the Indian people.
So to answer the main question, "Yes." There are Native American Christians. And you should hear them sing some worship songs in their native language... it's simply beautiful.
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RE: Native American Christians? - 4/17/2008 1:52:10 AM
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nativemary
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I believe some of the native americans are as authentic in their worship to our Adonnai as we are. And some native americans are not authentic in their worship as are some of us. Example : worship of idols and pagan practices in some of the largest churches and denominational organizations in the United States. Just because the idol worship is sophisticated does not make it less paganistic and an abomination to our Adonnai.
Yeshua Shalom
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RE: Native American Christians? - 4/17/2008 11:00:33 PM
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kung_fu_sed
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Tall_One
Actually Enigma is a secular group and they are from Ireland. Beautiful songs, however, singing "you" is not designating that I am necessarily singing to God - Jehovah Jirah - Adonnais - Eloyahim - Jesus Christ. Often times, mainstream musicians will substitute the word "you" for God so they will "fit in better" and their songs will be more wide spread in sales as they will sell to the masses who are not Christians. When, instead, we should sing only songs which speak the name of God so we are known to the world that we are singing praises to God in Heaven. Sadly satanists will sing praise songs with "you" in the lyrics to satan. It is imperative in these end times that we are known for who we serve and there is no question left in anyone's mind.
Interesting.
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RE: Native American Christians? - 4/18/2008 12:27:48 AM
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fallenstar
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The Native Americans original religon was very pagan. They had rituals honoring a God for just about every thing tangible and every emotion and spirit. Even though they keep some of their beliefs about each living thing being beautiful and wise in it's own way, they can still love Christ the same as you and me. Let them adjust in their own way, at their own pace. I'm sure it's a big change for them, it was a HUGE change for me when I converted out of my old belief. Just be patient (I'm not really sure just what your true emotions are, but I hope I don't offend you) and as long as they love Christ they can become, or are Christians.
 Jody
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RE: Native American Christians? - 4/18/2008 4:34:13 AM
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Casper22
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cherokeehippie
I read Thomas Mail's book, too. And it really blew me away to see the comparisons between the Cherokee feasts and the Feasts of Israel. I think maybe Cherokees differ in opinion on things, when it comes to these things.. LOL I'm shy and hestitant to talk about this stuff, since I'm still learning...I went to a Native christian gathering and was talking a little and it got on this topic, and a certain Cherokee guy, that I know...he mc's powwows, told me of a Cherokee elder (I can't remember his name) who believes that Cherokee are descendents of Israel....I've wondered about this and figured...in Mail's book, he says that there were two different groups in hte tribe when it came to Beliefs...One Creator verses worship of sun, moon, etc. But others say Mail is wrong...that all Cherokee believed in One Creator, anyway....
What's interesting is an archaeological discovery in Tennessee back in the 1800's of a tablet under the head of a skeleton...it turned out to be paleo-Hebrew, meaning "A comet of Judah"...that is a title that refered to Bar Khoba, a Jewish revolt leader against the Romans in 135AD.. They call this tablet the Bat Creek tablet. There were also some bronze(or brass...I get the two mixed up) bracelets...scientists tested the alloy and it turned out it was made like the Romans ...and had a nonnative material in it...
Another story!!! I know a lady here in the town I live in...she is a rock hound and she came across 12 flat stones (she won't tell me where she found them)..somewhere in Arkansas...Some of the stones, you can make out letters of some kind...(I can read Hebrew)...one of the tablets looked like it had in Hebrew, "Utensil" she had showed it to a professor and it looked like Hebrew to him, too.
However, the phoenicians, and nephilim, and others were here, too, so there was both the influence of idolatry, too, so you have (in my opinion, both the Israelites and pagan coming and bringing both)....I ran into a native guy one time, who was really into giants and the stories of giants in his tribe's history....he had a new agey european girlfriend and they freaked some christian native friends of mine out....I was at a knap in(a gathering where people get together and learn to flintknap arrowheads and other native/primitive crafts)...I hung out with two christian natives...one of whom is Apache and a direct descendent of Geronimo! After the native giant obsessed guy and his new age girlfriend walked off, one of my friends turned and said "too many vision quests!!"
The reason I find that native guy's interest in giants significant, is because biblically, the giants were nephilim, the offspring of fallen angels and human women (genesis 6:4)....demons are really dead nephilim...fallen angels is a different entity from the demons.
One story that I find interesting in Thomas Mails' book, and I've heard it told by other cherokee, too, ...in fact there is a cherokee author, I can't think of his name right off...he has a whole series of books on this...
That at one time, there were a class of ruling priests over the people...they started being abusive, and demanded human sacrifices and forced themselves upon the women, etc....the people rose up and overthrew these abusive priests! I was at a gathering where the focus was on diffusionism (the theory that there was more interaction going on between the new world and the old than is acknowledged in mainstream science)...and I told this story and a lecturer told me that the algonguins have this same story!!! It blew me away!!!! See, and I know some will cringe on the topic of burials being uncovered....a sensitive subject in Native circles...because of the white man's abuse and insensitivity of native burials..robbing them, etc)...but they have found that the mounds...contain giant skeletons 7 or 8 ft tall with a phoenican type script tablet beside them...these were in Ohio...the regular sized skeletons happened to be the native skeletons, but the giant skeletons were a totally different dna from the native! My theory?? The nephilim(after the flood, there was another episode of fallen angels going into women....Remember Og of Bashan and Goliath are AFTER the flood) They descended upon Mt. Hermon and made their way in the Bashan (golan heights area) and Lebanon...and the mystery religions played a major part in that area, besides starting in Babylon, then making its way to Greece, Roman, etc. I believe that just as the LORD had the Gospel to be spread over the world...so, too, the enemy had his message to be spread over the earth, thru the mystery religions....I believe understanding all of this, will cause one to have their eyes opened to what is really going on in our world today...with hte big corporations, etc, the so called political and industrial elite, illuminati, etc. There are native stories---especially the Paiutes out in Nevada...that tell about giants who were cannibals and that the Paiutes killed...what's interesting is that these giants had red hair, six fingers on each hand and double rows of teeth...Scripture tells of one giant that had six toes on each foot and six fingers on each hand. My theory is...that those abusive priests were phoencian nephilim who abused and made themselives rulers over all of the tribes...maybe even had their headquarters at Cahokia or in Ohio...and all the tribes as one rose up and overthrew them....of course I may be wrong....I hope this theory of mine, doesn't offend anyone.
The Nephilim thats a word I havent heard in a while and a very touchy subject with the proponenents of those who support the Line of Seth theory. My Mamaw used to talk about giants she would call them the Stone Men or the Stone People I would have to ask my Aunt about the name its been a while for me on my Cherokee lore. But they were more animal like covered in hair but walked like a man almost like there version of Sasquatch.
take care
Casper
< Message edited by Casper22 -- 4/18/2008 5:10:06 AM >
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RE: Native American Christians? - 4/18/2008 4:37:29 AM
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Casper22
Posts: 51
Joined: 3/29/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cherokeehippie
I'm not into "Dancing with Snakes" LOL....I never like snake handling churches!! I yearned to worship Abba native style and at a christian powwow in Oklahoma, I danced in the circle while Jonathan Maracle sang "Ride the Wind"...a Native minister encouraged us to break out of tradition (just as there is traditions of men in churches, inhibitation from worshipping the Lord freely, so too, unfortunately there's that in Native circles, powows, etc) and to worship the LORD any how we felt led to...don't be bound...well, I got up...this mixed Cherokee hippie, and I twirled around the circle with my arms out like an eagle...at first I was afraid of what the others would think, but I focused on worshipping Abba....to my surpised, the ladies in thier shawls timdly started copying me...spreading their arms out...it was awesome!! Later that night, I was one of the few honored in a certain way....
It was just how she was LOL she was a very eccentric woman and never shied away from things that most of us would consider abnormal.
take care
Casper
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RE: Native American Christians? - 4/18/2008 8:04:07 PM
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cherokeehippie
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Tall ONe...I know you mean well...but...you are going about it in the wrong way....You are judging Native Believers as being in demonic worship when there is just as much demonic worship in the mainstream white world.....I'm sorry...but I think you need to go to the LORD in prayer and let Him speak to you about His heart for Native people...not in a zealous self righteous agenda.
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I know I know, enigma is new age. But I don't find anything wrong with this song. Everytime it says "you", "your", or "yourself", just pretend it says "God" or "God's". 