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RE: Can I prove God wrote the bible? - 4/22/2008 5:18:37 AM
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Jet_A_Jockey
Posts: 47
Joined: 4/9/2008
From: pensacola florid
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quote:
ORIGINAL: theo_book
Interesting observation. I have a question I would like your opinion on:
If Faith in God is the substance of things hoped for, by the evidence of things not seen (and it is, according to scripture) how do you think the athiest's faith system differs?
I see them as antithetic, but am not sure.
We are all the same in that we tend to easily get stuck in our ways, whether they be belief in God, or lack of belief in God.
The atheistic faith system only differs in that rather than their faith be placed in God, it is placed in man. For the most part, themselves, but it can be for others. This is why most (if not all) atheists are secular humanists as well. If they have no God, who else can they have faith in but themselves?
That kind of faith differs in that we, as Christians, have faith in God, who we believe to be above all of Creation, and part of all things. We have faith that He has control and sovereignity, not because He physically came down and commanded it to each of us, but rather because we can read it with our eyes, and feel it in our hearts.
Atheists have faith in other men, and things of this world, especially those who have humanistic ideals. It's one of their efforts to reconcile with the mind, that one is a 'good' person.
At the end of the day, the center for an atheist is himself.
Peace
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RE: Can I prove God wrote the bible? - 4/22/2008 2:42:25 PM
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theo_book
Posts: 570
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quote:
ORIGINAL: BibleL7
The only difference in an atheists faith system and ours is where our faith is placed Christians place faith in a living God. Atheists not believing in God place faith in things such as science, books, etc. just not in a God. And if your friend has proof of evolution he can probably collect a lot of money for agencies offering it for proof. Like why do we not see it today in progress. So your friend may be able to argue with unsound so called logic he is obviously not following through to show any proof.
As for proving the Bible DONT try. Let the others disprove it or prove their arguments. If they are honest then they will come to the same conclusions of Josh McDowell and the guy that wrote 'A Case For Christ'. One thing that many Christians fail in is arguing proofs, as Atheists and Agnostics start calling it phony imagined and the Christian gets flustered. Try the factor that we Believe in God of the Bible and the Bible as true, there is evidence of history in Bible so it is trustworthy so you prove what you say are facts and truth and I will listen. If we do that then they will end up looking foolish.
Just the opinion of a small town preacher
Actually I have published a treatise on "proof." There is no such thing. When everyone concerned evaluates the evidence of a common focus, they agree in sufficient nunbers to say "We have proved it." The reality is, they have found a point of agreement.
Just as at one time "everyone knew" the earth was flat, and it had been "proved" to "everyone's" satisfaction. Actually, they had only agreed, in their ignorance, that the probability was justified because of the vehemence of the Portugese sailor's testimony, and they were only trying to get the English and Frence, and Spanish to forego learning of the Portugese trade routes.
Anyway, "proof" is always a highly suggestive and subjective thing.
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RE: Can I prove God wrote the bible? - 4/22/2008 2:42:58 PM
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drmark
Posts: 3272
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quote:
Can I prove God wrote the bible? Can you scientifically prove God has done anything by observational methodology. Of course not, a spirit being, especially the One transcendent to the physical universe He created, is not subject to scientific observational methods.
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After showing him that evolution is not a fact, but is very much theory, Actually, macro-evolution is not even a theoretical hypothesis since it cannot be tested and is unfalsifiable. See various S&O threads for details.
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My understanding is that early Christianity held similar ideas, that the "literalist" interpretation of Genesis is a relatively recent development. I'm sorry, tony.nz but you're wrong. The vast majority of the Early Church Fathers (see Table 3.4) believed the world was about 5000-6000 years old (at their time) based on a straight-forward reading of the historical narrative account of Genesis and the genealogies listed in 1 Chronicles and Luke. This is a common misconception promulgated by those who wish to justify long ages of time for evolutionary purposes. The "Day-Age Theory" has been evaluated and found wanting in numerous ways!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Can I prove God wrote the bible? - 4/23/2008 8:28:29 AM
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theo_book
Posts: 570
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
Can you scientifically prove God has done anything by observational methodology. Of course not, a spirit being, especially the One transcendent to the physical universe He created, is not subject to scientific observational methods. ?
Can you (or anyone else) scientifically prove Evolution has done anything by observational methodology? Of course not. There are no eyewitness reports to show it was Evolution and not God who attained such a degree of perfection. And Evolution, being a theory, therefore specifically transcendent to the physical universe it evolved, is not subject to observational methodology.
Besides, "everyone knows" (My least favored authority) hurricanes, earthquakes, floods, tsunamis, landslides, hundred-car-wrecks on interstates are all "acts of God." Or did the 100-car-wreck "evolve" on the highway. I can testify to them as I have eyewitnessed at least two in my 74 years of life. Oh! Oh! I'm so confused!!! "acts of God?" "Evolution?" Insurance companies are offer better testimonials to "God" than to Evolution. And they will testify that their findings are scientifically computed. HAH!!!
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RE: Can I prove God wrote the bible? - 4/23/2008 11:20:14 AM
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drmark
Posts: 3272
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quote:
Can you (or anyone else) scientifically prove Evolution has done anything by observational methodology? Of course not. There are no eyewitness reports to show it was Evolution and not God who attained such a degree of perfection. Totally correct, theo_book! Evolution and creationism BOTH require religious faith for acceptance. Evolutionists have faith in godless naturalism while creationists have faith in Creator God who designed and made all physical reality.
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And Evolution, being a theory, therefore specifically transcendent to the physical universe it evolved, is not subject to observational methodology. Again, evolution is not technically a scientific theory because theories must be testable by observational methodology. Obviously, zillions of years of UCD is not.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Can I prove God wrote the bible? - 4/23/2008 12:27:03 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 1155
Joined: 11/8/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: theo_book
Besides, "everyone knows" (My least favored authority) hurricanes, earthquakes, floods, tsunamis, landslides, hundred-car-wrecks on interstates are all "acts of God." Or did the 100-car-wreck "evolve" on the highway. I can testify to them as I have eyewitnessed at least two in my 74 years of life. Oh! Oh! I'm so confused!!! "acts of God?" "Evolution?" Insurance companies are offer better testimonials to "God" than to Evolution. And they will testify that their findings are scientifically computed. HAH!!!
This is not best evidence, since forensics can reconstruct cause and effect to determine how a 100 car pile-up took place. Also, insurance companies use the term "acts of god" to identify those events that are beyond human control. Evidence after the fact can be evaluated to determine the proximate cause of the event. Of course, these are logical and legal arguments, not scientific arguments. Also, one can ask, who set these systems in motion in the first place. However, I believe it is best to go directly to the latter points rather than get caught up in the confusion of connecting the dots for people.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Can I prove God wrote the bible? - 4/26/2008 1:49:03 PM
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Heavendweller
Posts: 553
Joined: 12/22/2007
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quote:
Shrommer: "One last thought - apologetics don't hold a candle next to the fulminous brilliance of the Holy Spirit working in someone's heart. Someone may convert to theism without getting born again, and there is even the odd testimony out there of atheists who first get born again and then struggle to have their minds renewed to understand theism and explain to themselves what God has done in their lives. A prayer like, "God, I know you don't exist, but just in case you do, if you do, I'd really like to know you." That kind of prayer can open up doorways that no theist or rational argument will ever get through!" Shrommer,
As soon as I read this, I said, "Now that is my experience!" I grew up in an atheist/agnostic home, where the only mention of God or Jesus Christ was using His name in vain. I never heard the word "resurrection" till I was 12 yrs. old and inquired of my grandmother what it meant. I was told the Incarnation was a nice "fairy tale" and that it could not have happened because "humanly it was impossible." I was told the Bible was "nice poetry" but that was the extent of it.
There came a time after enduring much suffering, and losing many family members to death, that I began to call upon the Lord. I didn't know in my mind if He existed, but I wanted to believe that He did. I just couldn't conjure up enough belief within myself.
My prayer for several months before I would go to sleep would be "God, if you are real, if you are out there, if you can hear me, please let me know. I need to know if you are real, if you exist."
When I encountered the Living God, He changed me instantaneously. I believe He did this specifically to proove His existance to me. He changed my personality, my outlook on life, even my thoughts the moment after He revealed Himself to me.
Thanks for that reminder. God bless you.
Heavendweller
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RE: Can I prove God wrote the bible? - 4/26/2008 2:19:49 PM
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Heavendweller
Posts: 553
Joined: 12/22/2007
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quote:
Jet_A_Jockey: "Atheists have faith in other men, and things of this world, especially those who have humanistic ideals. It's one of their efforts to reconcile with the mind, that one is a 'good' person.
At the end of the day, the center for an atheist is himself."
Jockey:
I was taught that "once we're dead, we're dead. That's the end to life and existance, period." The only way we "live on" is through our progeny and our deeds and actions. Therefore, I was taught that it was important and necessary to be "remembered" for the good contributions I had made to humanity. This was to be my motivation in life and the impetus to help me make "good" choices and be the best person I could possibly be.
I would call this belief system "moral atheism (agnosticism)" since there is still a standard to which humanity should assent, and the goal is to help one be a "good and decent" person. I think that the more popular atheism of our day is nihilism. Since there is no "objective standard of truth" according to the nihilist, there is no motivation to do good, but only to give full vent to one's passions, with no concern where those passions may lead. This would explain the diabolical nature of Marxist Communism and what ensued after the Bolshevik Revolution.
Marxism may be popular within the minds of many professors within the halls and confines of academia, but in reality, how many of these professors would have wanted to live under atheistic Communism under Mao Tse Tung, Lenin or Stalin?
Heavendweller
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