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RE: EXPELLED - 4/11/2008 2:07:47 AM
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Jhud
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quote:
Would that be Sparta? Or can we think of anything prior? We probably can. Maybe Hitler had some perverse and twisted view of Darwinism and natural selection, who knows? If he did, it is clear he didn't understand it. From Mein Kampf:
"Even the most superficial observation shows that Nature's restricted form of propagation and increase is an almost rigid basic law of all the innumerable forms of expression of her vital urge. Every animal mates only with a member of the same species. The titmouse seeks the titmouse, the finch the finch, the stork the stork, the field mouse the field mouse, the dormouse the dormouse, the wolf the she-wolf, etc.
Only unusual circumstances can change this, primarily the compulsion of captivity or any other cause that makes it impossible to mate within the same species. But then Nature begins to resist this with all possible means, and her most visible protest consists either in refusing further capacity for propagation to ****s or in limiting the fertility of later offspring; in most cases, however, she takes away the power of resistance to disease or hostile attacks."
There are several quotes in Mein Kampf where he talks about species, and sounds a lot like an anti-evolutionist. Quite a few of Darwin's writings and Haeckel's writings were on the Nazi banned book list, and burned. Hitler also warped and misused and abused Christianity to drive anti-semitism in the German population. You could consider Christianity just as significant a justifier for the Holocaust and Nazi eugenics. Christianity was one of their primary tools used to herd the German population like a pack of sheep.
But the truth is, Hitler's beliefs as far as we can tell, are a hodge-podge of random things picked from here, taken from there and twisted into a warped evil convoluted mess, but none of it had anything to do with the original subject matter.
I didn't say aything about Hitler, I said eugenics, as in the science of; directly and undeniably from Darwin, around well be for Hitler found a use for it, though it helped that the scientific consensus of the time backed him up.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-200
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RE: EXPELLED - 4/11/2008 2:10:52 AM
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Jhud
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quote:
I dunno about you, but if I were featured in a film, under false pretenses, I might be a little anxious to see how I ended up on film. Generally AFIAK, guys like Dawkins and PZ make it a point not to take part in such films because they don't want to create the illusion of controversy over these issues. So I don't doubt for a second the Expelled team deceived them about the films intentions. The funny thing is, Mathis has been trying to say it was an honest mix up and the title of the film got changed later, but the domain name for expelled got registered prior to all the interviews. Oops!
From what I've heard (we'll have to wait till its out to find out) but it doesn't look like this film does much for presenting a case for ID, or getting into its details.. its a conspiracy flick about a few people who got fired... and of course the film leaves out important details such as one of the featured 'victims' had a contract that ended and was never actually an employee of the place he claims fired him.
Like I said, if you want Darwin et. al. to be honest, like any good journalist you don't waltz in and ask them about how they want to suppress the criticism of evolution; you catch them with their guard down. That's what we get to see in Expelled; evolutionists being honest.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-200
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RE: EXPELLED - 4/11/2008 2:31:38 AM
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drj11
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
I dunno about you, but if I were featured in a film, under false pretenses, I might be a little anxious to see how I ended up on film. Generally AFIAK, guys like Dawkins and PZ make it a point not to take part in such films because they don't want to create the illusion of controversy over these issues. So I don't doubt for a second the Expelled team deceived them about the films intentions. The funny thing is, Mathis has been trying to say it was an honest mix up and the title of the film got changed later, but the domain name for expelled got registered prior to all the interviews. Oops!
From what I've heard (we'll have to wait till its out to find out) but it doesn't look like this film does much for presenting a case for ID, or getting into its details.. its a conspiracy flick about a few people who got fired... and of course the film leaves out important details such as one of the featured 'victims' had a contract that ended and was never actually an employee of the place he claims fired him.
Like I said, if you want Darwin et. al. to be honest, like any good journalist you don't waltz in and ask them about how they want to suppress the criticism of evolution; you catch them with their guard down. That's what we get to see in Expelled; evolutionists being honest.
Well, you get to see Dawkins and PZ espouse their atheistic view, and see in no uncertain terms what they think of religion.... But you don't have to watch Expelled to see that. Ben Stein could have taken any random clip from a Dawkins/Myers youtube video to get that. From what I have seen, they don't hold back, no matter who they're talking too.
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RE: EXPELLED - 4/11/2008 2:34:09 AM
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drj11
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
I didn't say aything about Hitler, I said eugenics, as in the science of; directly and undeniably from Darwin, around well be for Hitler found a use for it, though it helped that the scientific consensus of the time backed him up.
The quote you were responding too was about Naziism and the Holocaust so thats why I took it that way.
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RE: EXPELLED - 4/11/2008 2:35:02 AM
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Jhud
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Well, you get to see Dawkins and PZ espouse their atheistic view, and see in no uncertain terms what they think of religion.... But you don't have to watch Expelled to see that. Ben Stein could have taken any random clip from a Dawkins/Myers youtube video to get that. From what I have seen, they don't hold back, no matter who they're talking too.
Yeah, but how often do you get to see Dawkins admit life could have been designed?
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-200
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RE: EXPELLED - 4/11/2008 2:41:27 AM
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drj11
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
Well, you get to see Dawkins and PZ espouse their atheistic view, and see in no uncertain terms what they think of religion.... But you don't have to watch Expelled to see that. Ben Stein could have taken any random clip from a Dawkins/Myers youtube video to get that. From what I have seen, they don't hold back, no matter who they're talking too.
Yeah, but how often do you get to see Dawkins admit life could have been designed?
The space aliens thing? From Dawkin's review:
"Another example. Toward the end of his interview with me, Stein asked whether I could think of any circumstances whatsoever under which intelligent design might have occurred. It's the kind of challenge I relish, and I set myself the task of imagining the most plausible scenario I could. I wanted to give ID its best shot, however poor that best shot might be. I must have been feeling magnanimous that day, because I was aware that the leading advocates of Intelligent Design are very fond of protesting that they are not talking about God as the designer, but about some unnamed and unspecified intelligence, which might even be an alien from another planet. Indeed, this is the only way they differentiate themselves from fundamentalist creationists, and they do it only when they need to, in order to weasel their way around church/state separation laws. So, bending over backwards to accommodate the IDiots ("oh NOOOOO, of course we aren't talking about God, this is SCIENCE") and bending over backwards to make the best case I could for intelligent design, I constructed a science fiction scenario. Like Michael Ruse (as I surmise) I still hadn't rumbled Stein, and I was charitable enough to think he was an honestly stupid man, sincerely seeking enlightenment from a scientist. I patiently explained to him that life could conceivably have been seeded on Earth by an alien intelligence from another planet (Francis Crick and Leslie Orgel suggested something similar -- semi tongue-in-cheek). The conclusion I was heading towards was that, even in the highly unlikely event that some such 'Directed Panspermia' was responsible for designing life on this planet, the alien beings would THEMSELVES have to have evolved, if not by Darwinian selection, by some equivalent 'crane' (to quote Dan Dennett). My point here was that design can never be an ULTIMATE explanation for organized complexity. Even if life on Earth was seeded by intelligent designers on another planet, and even if the alien life form was itself seeded four billion years earlier, the regress must ultimately be terminated (and we have only some 13 billion years to play with because of the finite age of the universe). Organized complexity cannot just spontaneously happen. That, for goodness sake, is the creationists' whole point, when they bang on about eyes and bacterial flagella! Evolution by natural selection is the only known process whereby organized complexity can ultimately come into being. Organized complexity -- and that includes everything capable of designing anything intelligently -- comes LATE into the universe. It cannot exist at the beginning, as I have explained again and again in my writings.
This 'Ultimate 747' argument, as I called it in The God Delusion, may or may not persuade you. That is not my concern here. My concern here is that my science fiction thought experiment -- however implausible -- was designed to illustrate intelligent design's closest approach to being plausible. I was most emphaticaly NOT saying that I believed the thought experiment. Quite the contrary. I do not believe it (and I don't think Francis Crick believed it either). I was bending over backwards to make the best case I could for a form of intelligent design. And my clear implication was that the best case I could make was a very implausible case indeed. In other words, I was using the thought experiment as a way of demonstrating strong opposition to all theories of intelligent design. "
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RE: EXPELLED - 4/11/2008 2:45:26 AM
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Jhud
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That's lovely spin.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-200
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RE: EXPELLED - 4/11/2008 2:47:56 AM
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drj11
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ORIGINAL: Jhud
That's lovely spin.
From excerpts I've read in The God Delusion, Dawkin's also said God might exist. But its just so improbable in his vew, its not worth considering as a possibility.
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RE: EXPELLED - 4/11/2008 3:03:45 AM
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Jhud
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From excerpts I've read in The God Delusion, Dawkin's also said God might exist. But its just so improbable in his vew, its not worth considering as a possibility.
I think that's pretty common knowledge at this point.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-200
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RE: EXPELLED - 4/11/2008 5:39:07 AM
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Drekoguk
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ORIGINAL: Jhud
He’s a spinmeister.
So you’re saying this film isn’t propaganda? The liberal evolutionist front Fox news must be wrong then.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,348468,00.html#2
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Only if I responded as foolishly as Dawkins did.
He responded by revealing their lies. I guess honesty is only considered foolish in the ID camp but that shouldn’t be that surprising.
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But actually the point of the movie was to show that Dawkins and Meyers et. el. are fascists who want to suppress free speech; they were unlikely to get the honest responses they did by saying, “We just want to prove you are fascists who want to suppress free speech”.
They’re fascists because they want to suppress the non-science of Intelligent Design? So that’s what makes you a fascist these days!
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Actually, he isn’t claiming it’s his ‘own work’, and I know a little bit about the law, as well interestingly as 3D animation.
Well you should learn how to read as well. “The segments depicting these models in your film are clearly based upon, and COPIED from, material in the "Inner Life" video. Are you actually claiming that both the University Harvard and Expelled came up with almost the exact same video right after each other?
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Here. Wrong.
The Uncommon Descent blog, very compelling evidence you have there…you understand Mathis already admitted he expelled Myers in a whim. What’s with creationists and making things up. The creationists give three different accounts of the same thing. UD says Myers wasn’t invited, that Blessman guy said Myers was apparently causing trouble when he was with his family in the line to the theatre and the security asked him to stop his disturbance and after he didn’t he got expelled and the producer Mathis says he was expelled in a whim. So what is it!? Creationists need to agree on their lies beforehand then present them. You’ll look much more professional and organized.
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And it’s not double think to advocate expelling critics and then complain about beig expelled for being a critic?
Non-sequitur. Myers correctly thinks ID is nonsense and avows so no double thinking there. This film is about FREEDOM OF INQUIRY! And the producer Mathis expelled someone of a different scientific perspective, understand the irony and hypocrisy yet?
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Obviously Dawkins and Meyers are.
No they’re laughing their butts off. And it really is funny, it’s sad you can’t appreciate it.
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Well, if it is so obviously unconvincing, then one wonders why Dawkins and Meyers even care?
They care because IDers are trying to pass up nonsense as science. How do you not know that yet? At least creationists are specific about what was designed, when it was designed and who designed it. Tell me Jhud how was life designed, when was it designed, what parts are designed and what parts came about through natural mechanisms and when should we expect the next designed thing to come about? Answer them ROBUSTLY and I might change my mind and think Myers and Dawkins really are afraid of ID.
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I live in the bluest state in the union; I’ll be seeing it next week – it’s obvious you have no idea what you are talking about.
No idea whatsoever, Jhud.
“According to the film’s website, the producers are in a whopping 45 theaters in North Carolina, and a mere 7 in Massachusetts, 35 in Georgia, 11 in New Jersey, 4 in Connecticut, and 1 in Vermont. And so on. There are huge numbers of screens in Florida and Texas taking the film, particularly 7 in San Antonio. If I lived in the deep south, I’d boycott the filmmakers for thinking of me as this gullible and unsophisticated.”
Again: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,348468,00.html#2
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Feel free keep your head in the sand and ignore the origin of eugenics.
Yes, I’m the one who’s guilty of ignoring history, Jhud. You know it wasn’t until eugenics was thought up that people knew that dead people were incapable of passing on their genes, oh wait..
Why didn’t you respond to the centuries of anti-Semitic Christian history? I’m sure there’s some kind, albeit slight, connection between that and the Holocaust but you never know..
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RE: EXPELLED - 4/11/2008 10:40:04 AM
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Jhud
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So you’re saying this film isn’t propaganda? The liberal evolutionist front Fox news must be wrong then.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,348468,00.html#2
So, the entertainment writer at Fox is now an expert on evolution and intelligent design? I guess we know where some evolutionists learn science...
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He responded by revealing their lies. I guess honesty is only considered foolish in the ID camp but that shouldn’t be that surprising.
Actually, in the movie he basically agrees that life could be intelligently designed; if that is Dawkins being honest, more power to him.
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They’re fascists because they want to suppress the non-science of Intelligent Design? So that’s what makes you a fascist these days!
They are fascists because they want to suppress free speech; what that speech is about is irrelevant.
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Well you should learn how to read as well. “The segments depicting these models in your film are clearly based upon, and COPIED from, material in the "Inner Life" video. Are you actually claiming that both the University Harvard and Expelled came up with almost the exact same video right after each other?
No, I am saying that it would be pretty hard to say that one holds a copyright on depictions of a cell, which is owned by no one.
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The Uncommon Descent blog, very compelling evidence you have there…you understand Mathis already admitted he expelled Myers in a whim. What’s with creationists and making things up. The creationists give three different accounts of the same thing. UD says Myers wasn’t invited, that Blessman guy said Myers was apparently causing trouble when he was with his family in the line to the theatre and the security asked him to stop his disturbance and after he didn’t he got expelled and the producer Mathis says he was expelled in a whim. So what is it!? Creationists need to agree on their lies beforehand then present them. You’ll look much more professional and organized.
I read all the accounts; all of them support the notion that Darwin and Meyers were attempting to enter an invitation only event to cause trouble, and that Meyers was rightfully removed (which he didn’t protest, by the way)
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Non-sequitur. Myers correctly thinks ID is nonsense and avows so no double thinking there. This film is about FREEDOM OF INQUIRY! And the producer Mathis expelled someone of a different scientific perspective, understand the irony and hypocrisy yet?
Sorry, you can’t have it both ways; you can’t advocate suppression iof free speech and complain suppression happens to someone you agree with.
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No they’re laughing their butts off. And it really is funny, it’s sad you can’t appreciate it.
I appreciate the attention they brought to the film. 
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They care because IDers are trying to pass up nonsense as science. How do you not know that yet? At least creationists are specific about what was designed, when it was designed and who designed it. Tell me Jhud how was life designed, when was it designed, what parts are designed and what parts came about through natural mechanisms and when should we expect the next designed thing to come about? Answer them ROBUSTLY and I might change my mind and think Myers and Dawkins really are afraid of ID.
The reality is if this if this movie were about UFOs, or Bigfoot, or about a flat earth no one would protest because no one would take it seriously; the fact is, even evolutionists take this notion seriously.
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“According to the film’s website, the producers are in a whopping 45 theaters in North Carolina, and a mere 7 in Massachusetts, 35 in Georgia, 11 in New Jersey, 4 in Connecticut, and 1 in Vermont. And so on. There are huge numbers of screens in Florida and Texas taking the film, particularly 7 in San Antonio. If I lived in the deep south, I’d boycott the filmmakers for thinking of me as this gullible and unsophisticated.”
Again: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,348468,00.html#2
It’s at 26 theaters in the Minneapolis area alone, which is in the most liberal state in the Union; you apparently will believe anything you are told without checking the facts.
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Yes, I’m the one who’s guilty of ignoring history, Jhud. You know it wasn’t until eugenics was thought up that people knew that dead people were incapable of passing on their genes, oh wait..
Why didn’t you respond to the centuries of anti-Semitic Christian history? I’m sure there’s some kind, albeit slight, connection between that and the Holocaust but you never know..
Darwin -> Galton -> First International Eugenics Conference.
The ignorance of history here is astounding, and frightening, considering the implications of forgetting what actually happened.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-200
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RE: EXPELLED - 4/11/2008 11:11:26 AM
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drj11
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
From excerpts I've read in The God Delusion, Dawkin's also said God might exist. But its just so improbable in his vew, its not worth considering as a possibility.
I think that's pretty common knowledge at this point.
Then why is it surprising to see him talk about what he views as absurdities? Alien designers, Gods, or anything else?
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RE: EXPELLED - 4/11/2008 11:13:06 AM
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drj11
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
Darwin -> Galton -> First International Eugenics Conference.
The ignorance of history here is astounding, and frightening, considering the implications of forgetting what actually happened.
We can thank Darwin for Eugenics in the same way we can thank Newton for ICBM's.
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RE: EXPELLED - 4/11/2008 11:17:17 AM
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Jhud
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quote:
Then why is it surprising to see him talk about what he views as absurdities? Alien designers, Gods, or anything else?
He doesn't appear to consider alien designers as absurdities in the film.
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We can thank Darwin for Eugenics in the same way we can thank Newton for ICBM's.
Hardly; Darwin's cousin (Galton) developed the science of eugenics with Darwin's blessing. Darwin's own son presided over the First International Eugenics Conference; the link is direct, and irrefutable.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-200
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RE: EXPELLED - 4/11/2008 11:52:07 AM
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essentialsaltes
Posts: 550
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
I read all the accounts; all of them support the notion that Darwin [heh] and Meyers were attempting to enter an invitation only event to cause trouble, and that Meyers was rightfully removed (which he didn’t protest, by the way)
In Christianity Today's update to the story, it states:
"3/26 UPDATE: There has been much discussion about the use of the word "crash" to describe how Dawkins got into the screening. Since this story posted, CT has learned that the screening was not an "invitation-only" event, but that attendees had simply signed up on a website--that it was open to anyone who signed up in advance. Tickets were not needed. CT regrets the choice of the word "crash" in the title and in the story, because neither Dawkins nor Myers were trying to "crash" the event, but had legitimately signed up for the screening as did everyone else who attended."
_____________________________
"My object in all arguments is not to make any preconceived opinion of mine seem right, but merely to discover and establish the truth, whatever the truth may be."
-- HP Lovecraft, letter to Robert E. Howard 7/27-28/34
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RE: EXPELLED - 4/11/2008 12:03:57 PM
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Jhud
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quote:
In Christianity Today's update to the story, it states:
"3/26 UPDATE: There has been much discussion about the use of the word "crash" to describe how Dawkins got into the screening. Since this story posted, CT has learned that the screening was not an "invitation-only" event, but that attendees had simply signed up on a website--that it was open to anyone who signed up in advance. Tickets were not needed. CT regrets the choice of the word "crash" in the title and in the story, because neither Dawkins nor Myers were trying to "crash" the event, but had legitimately signed up for the screening as did everyone else who attended."
The problem is, where they 'signed up' was a site set up to RSVP for tickets; last I checked, an RSVP is a response to an invitation. They could argue that the producers hadn't sufficiently secured the site, but I would argue that is because the producers were unfamiliar with the lengths atheists will go to disrupt something they don't agree with.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-200
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RE: EXPELLED - 4/11/2008 12:28:55 PM
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essentialsaltes
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
In Christianity Today's update to the story, it states:
"3/26 UPDATE: There has been much discussion about the use of the word "crash" to describe how Dawkins got into the screening. Since this story posted, CT has learned that the screening was not an "invitation-only" event, but that attendees had simply signed up on a website--that it was open to anyone who signed up in advance. Tickets were not needed. CT regrets the choice of the word "crash" in the title and in the story, because neither Dawkins nor Myers were trying to "crash" the event, but had legitimately signed up for the screening as did everyone else who attended."
The problem is, where they 'signed up' was a site set up to RSVP for tickets; last I checked, an RSVP is a response to an invitation.
Oh please. CT says "it was open to anyone who signed up in advance." The producers did not pick and choose a precise list of 120 people to whom they issued engraved invitations. I have RSVP'ed to a number of advance screenings here in Los Angeles trhough emails forwarded from friends.
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the lengths atheists will go to disrupt something they don't agree with.
Again, what disruption occurred? Myers acquiesced to the decision to oust him. Dawkins and many other atheists sat through the film. No one has mentioned that popcorn was thrown at the screen or anything.
_____________________________
"My object in all arguments is not to make any preconceived opinion of mine seem right, but merely to discover and establish the truth, whatever the truth may be."
-- HP Lovecraft, letter to Robert E. Howard 7/27-28/34
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RE: EXPELLED - 4/11/2008 12:36:59 PM
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Jhud
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Oh please. CT says "it was open to anyone who signed up in advance." The producers did not pick and choose a precise list of 120 people to whom they issued engraved invitations. I have RSVP'ed to a number of advance screenings here in Los Angeles trhough emails forwarded from friends.
People were invited, they were allowed to bring guests, they indicated how many tickets they needed at the RSVP page on the expelled site; Dawkins and Meyers gamed the system, which was clever, but still an attempt to interupt an event they weren't invited to. Meyers did the same thing a few days later to an Expelled press call. That is what he does.
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Again, what disruption occurred? Myers acquiesced to the decision to oust him. Dawkins and many other atheists sat through the film. No one has mentioned that popcorn was thrown at the screen or anything.
Probably because Meyers was removed!
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-200
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RE: EXPELLED - 4/11/2008 1:45:33 PM
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Drekoguk
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ORIGINAL: Jhud
So, the entertainment writer at Fox is now an expert on evolution and intelligent design? I guess we know where some evolutionists learn science...
Do need to be an expert to call out propaganda when you see it?
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Actually, in the movie he basically agrees that life could be intelligently designed; if that is Dawkins being honest, more power to him.
Giving up on this one then?
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They are fascists because they want to suppress free speech; what that speech is about is irrelevant.
So we should allow any overly debunked crackpot theory into science class? Just for the sake of free speech?
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No, I am saying that it would be pretty hard to say that one holds a copyright on depictions of a cell, which is owned by no one.
Computer generated graphics can be copyrighted though and the Expelled posse ripped that off in fine detail. Are you beginning to understand?
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I read all the accounts; all of them support the notion that Darwin and Meyers were attempting to enter an invitation only event to cause trouble, and that Meyers was rightfully removed (which he didn’t protest, by the way)
All of them? More lies. What should I expect, really..
So let me get this straight; Myers, his family and his cronies all crashed the screening yet Myers was the only one to get expelled. Wouldn’t they all be banned if this were true? Your claim doesn’t stand up to the slightest bit of scrutiny.
This guy actually did the research and figured out what actually happened. Now I know how IDers react to evidence so I’m not holding my breath.
http://pigeonchess.wordpress.com/2008/03/29/the-expelled-rsvp-sites-getting-to-the-facts/
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Sorry, you can’t have it both ways; you can’t advocate suppression iof free speech and complain suppression happens to someone you agree with.
Read what I said again.
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I appreciate the attention they brought to the film.
Mostly negative attention. Check the hits for Pharyngula and the Expelled website.
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The reality is if this if this movie were about UFOs, or Bigfoot, or about a flat earth no one would protest because no one would take it seriously; the fact is, even evolutionists take this notion seriously.
There’s no mainstream religions advocating the existence of UFOs, or Bigfoot and.. well the Bible says the earth is flat..but hardly any Christians believe so. Christians claim that the flat earth parts of the BIble are just symbolic while the rest of the Bible is most definitely literal, cept the part about bat birds, 4 legged insects and birds, the motionless earth, the firmament and a bunch of other stuff. Clearly that is all symbolic and the rest is completely literal.
Anyway, it’s only in your mind that you think there’s some kind of controversy over evolution and ID because your Holy Book contradicts evolution. Sorry to disappoint.
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It’s at 26 theaters in the Minneapolis area alone, which is in the most liberal state in the Union; you apparently will believe anything you are told without checking the facts.
The whole state of Minnesota only has 23. And that’s some bad logic employed by you. You try to debunk a researched paper’s claim by showcasing the film being supposedly heavily shown in one liberal area. I don’t know if you know this but just because the film is shown a lot in one liberal area doesn’t mean that’ll be the case for all the liberal areas. Let’s look at the facts shall we: http://lippard.blogspot.com/2008/03/is-expelled-going-to-show-up-in-any.html
You can see clear a positive correlation between creationism loving states and number of theatres showing Expelled.
What do you know...I was right.
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Darwin -> Galton -> First International Eugenics Conference.
Read what I wrote carefully, you’ll understand - hopefully.
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The ignorance of history here is astounding, and frightening, considering the implications of forgetting what actually happened.
Yes, too bad it's you contributing most of the ignorance. You should pick up some history books. Start with a book about Luther and his book The Jews and Their Lies and you'll maybe understand why the mostly Lutheran Germans did what they did.
< Message edited by Drekoguk -- 4/11/2008 1:52:35 PM >
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RE: EXPELLED - 4/11/2008 2:16:37 PM
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Drekoguk
Posts: 6
Joined: 1/12/2008
Status: offline
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Bolinsky wrote this today about Expelled stealing their animaton and months of hard labour. To anyone familiar with IDers - this shouldn't be surprising.
'Expelled' ripped off Harvard's 'Inner Life of the Cell' animation
by David Bolinsky
To the anti-ID community which is giving XVIVO support in our ideological battle against the microcephalic apostates of "Intelligent Design":
XVIVO created The Inner Life of the Cell for Harvard, through fourteen months of painstaking examination of how a myriad of systems, functional structures and proteins in a cell, could be depicted in a sweeping panoramic style of animation, reminiscent of cinema, that fundamentally raised the bar on the visualization of molecular and cellular biology for undergraduate students. In depicting what we did, other than merely maintaining the intent of the syllabus, we needed to edit like mad. A cell has billions of molecules, millions of active functional proteins and tens of thousands of structural elements separating, sequestering and joining compartments and systems into a functional whole. An initial foundational decision process of our creative vision, consisted of editing out 95% of the contents of our cell in order to gain, for our virtual camera, a vista to visualize what elements we left in. The decisions we made blended aesthetics with science. They were not made lightly, nor were they made without extensive consultation with researchers at Harvard, and an extensive body of literature, including protein data libraries and new findings by Harvard researchers.
Given the vast number of structures to be removed, and given the structures remaining "on camera", whose positioning and relationships, both aesthetic and functional, needed to remain true to the function and beauty of molecular biology, it is inconceivable, mathematically, that the animator hired by EXPELLED's producers, independently and randomly came up with the same identical actin filament mesh XVIVO depicted in one scene, which had never before been rendered anywhere in 3D! It is astonishing that among well over a dozen functional kinesins from which an animator might choose, we both chose the same configuration of kinesin, pulling the same protein-studded vesicle, on the same microtubule! Can YOU believe we coincidentally picked the same camera angles and left in the same specific structures in the background, positioned with the same composition? Equally astonishing is the "Intellgent Design" treatment of these and other proteins surfaces, which XVIVO derived using procedural iso-surface skinning of the PDB cloud data of our proteins' atom placement. There are an infinite number of possble "correct" solutions to that problem.
Coincidence? Given their "access to the same literature" we had, where Graham Johnson at Scripps so brilliantly worked out the real motion of kinesins, I am simply blown away that the "Intelligent Design" animators slavishly made the hands of their kenesins move exactly as we did, even though we intentionally left out the stochastic Brownian motion which actually characterizes the tractive force and periodic pedicle placement of these tiny motivators. We simply did not have the time or budget to render these, and a dozen other details, to the level of insanity we would like to have done! This was, after all, an underfunded proof-of-concept piece. The cellular biology that serves as "filler" material, between scenes copied from Inner Life, is riddled with biological errors. Imagine "Intelligent Design's" depiction of protein synthesis without ribosomes!
To Mr. Dembski: The only reason I am involved in this discussion is because I do not want the reputation of my company, hard-earned as it is, to be sullied by even oblique affiliation to your sort of smarmy ethics, if only through works of ours, purloined to fit your agenda. Last year you were charging colleges thousands of dollars to give lectures showing a copy of The Inner Life of the Cell, you claimed you "found somewhere", with Harvard's and XVIVO's credits stripped out and the copyright notice removed (which is in itself a felony) and a creationist voice-over pasted on over our music (yes, I have a recording of your lecture). Harvard slapped you down for that, and yes there is a paper trail. One can only assume that had we not taken notice then, we would be debating The Inner Life of the Cell being used in EXPELLED, instead of a copy. You have enough of a colorful history that Harvard, in its wisdom, decided to 'swat the gnat' with as little fuss as possible. Imagine our surprise earlier this month, to see our work copied in a movie trailer for EXPELLED! And you are in the movie too! Not quite a star, but brown dwarfs are cool. XVIVO has no intention of engaging alone, in asymmetrical fighting against an ideological entity with orders of magnitude more resources than we have. That might make great theater, but would resemble a hugely expensive game of whack-a-ID. Boring!
It makes me happy, though, that you decided to implicate your friends in print, on your blog (http://www.uncommondescent.com/legal/expelled-plagiarizing-harvard/#comment-229619), in what is legally, malignant infringement, since you no had doubt discussed with EXPELLED's producers, Harvard's previous legal infringement action against you, the Discovery Institute, where you are a fellow and Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, where you teach. Once we uncover the EXPELLED animation dollar trail, and bring it to light, we will have even more fun. The sublimely ridiculous claim that EXPELLED uses completely original animation, in light of copying our work so closely that a budget was reserved to pay for an infringement suit by Harvard, is delicious! Why should I try to take you guys down when you are doing such a splendid job yourselves? For free! So go ahead and release your movie. Just keep track of how many tickets you sell. We may just find that data valuable, too.
David Bolinsky
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Couldn't link it because the comment section is uncensored. Sorry.
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RE: EXPELLED - 4/11/2008 2:22:57 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 6781
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: offline
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Do need to be an expert to call out propaganda when you see it?
Well no; in fact I think we should have a new rule; anytime someone presents something we don’t like or disagree with we should just call it ‘propaganda’ – thanks for making this clear.
Oh, and stop posting propaganda on this thread.
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Giving up on this one then?
Nah, just happy Dawkins saw the light for a moment.
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So we should allow any overly debunked crackpot theory into science class? Just for the sake of free speech?
Well, only occasional references to evolution just for the sake of fairness.
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Computer generated graphics can be copyrighted though and the Expelled posse ripped that off in fine detail. Are you beginning to understand?
Actually, it’s looking more like this is a hoax; there are a number of misspellings in the supposed ‘letter’ posted on the blog that ‘broke’ the story, and no actual announcement from either XVIVO or Harvard. In fact, XVIVO doesn’t even hold the copyright – Harvard does. Looks like gullibility loses again.
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So let me get this straight; Myers, his family and his cronies all crashed the screening yet Myers was the only one to get expelled. Wouldn’t they all be banned if this were true? Your claim doesn’t stand up to the slightest bit of scrutiny.
This guy actually did the research and figured out what actually happened. Now I know how IDers react to evidence so I’m not holding my breath.
http://pigeonchess.wordpress.com/2008/03/29/the-expelled-rsvp-sites-getting-to-the-facts/
More heasay. *YAWN*
It’s all rather irrelevant at this point, and evident now you will believe anything you read.
Basically, you seem to be saying, “I don’t like fascism unless I am the one employing it.”
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Mostly negative attention. Check the hits for Pharyngula and the Expelled website.
There is no negative publicity; Dawkins should know this, he is a master of it.
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There’s no mainstream religions advocating the existence of UFOs, or Bigfoot and.. well the Bible says the earth is flat..but hardly any Christians believe so. Christians claim that the flat earth parts of the BIble are just symbolic while the rest of the Bible is most definitely literal, cept the part about bat birds, 4 legged insects and birds, the motionless earth, the firmament and a bunch of other stuff. Clearly that is all symbolic and the rest is completely literal.
Anyway, it’s only in your mind that you think there’s some kind of controversy over evolution and ID because your Holy Book contradicts evolution. Sorry to disappoint.
You avoided the point; the reason no ‘mainstream’ religions advocate such things is because there is no evidence for such things, unlike ID.
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The whole state of Minnesota only has 23. And that’s some bad logic employed by you. You try to debunk a researched paper’s claim by showcasing the film being supposedly heavily shown in one liberal area. I don’t know if you know this but just because the film is shown a lot in one liberal area doesn’t mean that’ll be the case for all the liberal areas. Let’s look at the facts shall we: http://lippard.blogspot.com/2008/03/is-expelled-going-to-show-up-in-any.html
You can see clear a positive correlation between creationism loving states and number of theatres showing Expelled.
Well, it’s 26, but NY has 27, OR 17, and CA over 100. So your source again has the wrong info.
But, the fact is it’s not unusual for a film (especially a documentary) to be initially in limited release or be released in places where it will do best; it really is just more spinning.
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Read what I wrote carefully, you’ll understand - hopefully.
Yeah, I understand you aren’t particularly amenable to facts.
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Yes, too bad it's you contributing most of the ignorance. You should pick up some history books. Start with a book about Luther and his book The Jews and Their Lies and you'll maybe understand why the mostly Lutheran Germans did what they did.
Oh, the Jews have certainly always faced antipathy; Darwin made it scientifically respectable.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-200
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