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RE: This just isn't right. - 9/4/2008 1:27:54 PM
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LaurainAL
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One more thing...
I know in our church there are a couple of people who are teminally ill right now. The pastor is spending as much time with them as he can.
Seriously though, this topic gets me all bent out of shape so I'm going to not read it anymore.
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Life Trumps Choice
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RE: This just isn't right. - 9/4/2008 4:08:18 PM
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Focusing
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I think relationships here on earth are very important. Yes, as believers, we do have Jesus and He is always with us. But even Jesus knew the importance of having close friends while He was here on earth.
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There is an appointed time for everything. And there is a time for every event under heaven
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RE: This just isn't right. - 9/6/2008 12:11:33 AM
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stimulus
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Mrs. Noah,
I'm so sorry your family is going this. It would be best if friends would assume you wanted a visit, but that often doesn't happen, and I'm sorry it's causing your family so much grief.
I wanted to suggest a couple things. You mentioned that you occasionally run into people who say they will visit soon, but they never do. So long as the conversations are positive (ie, the people don't feel like you're begging them to visit or chastising them for not having visited already), they may not follow through because they don't know when a good time would be to visit. They may also be concerned that they will be tied up at your parents for an extended period of time, particularly if they already know your parents are lonely.
Could you maybe take the next step for them, and suggest a start and finish time, in an upbeat, positive way? Something like, "My parents would LOVE to see you! You know, I'll be over there Saturday afternoon at 2. Why don't you come then? I'll make some tea (or we can play cards). He's got a nurse coming at 2:45, but that'll give us plenty of time."
In an ideal world, you wouldn't have to say that, and people wouldn't have the excuses I mentioned for not visiting on their own. But it's probably one of the easiest ways to get what you want for your parents, so I would do it.
Also, you might try the same thing when your parents get cards from friends. Can you help your mom send thank you cards or letters in response or make phone calls to acknowledge receipt of cards? In them, tell people that your parents would love to visit with them, but they can't get out of the house. Invite them over. Just keep it all really positive, because if people feel like you're begging for visitors or are upset that they haven't already come, well, they are less likely to come.
You really shouldn't have to do that, and I hope it doesn't sound like I'm "blaming" you or your parents for the lack of visitors, because I'm not. However, I hope one of those ideas work for you and get your parents some company soon! 
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RE: This just isn't right. - 9/7/2008 4:41:07 PM
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4ChristisLove
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Mrs. Noah - I'm heartbroken at your post. It is only obvious that your father and mother need love at this time and I'm sad that noone is showing them they care. I agree with Lightshineon for the most part. I'm sure most pastors are very busy people, but WE all are. There has to be someone from the church that has a call to visit (and what about close friends in the church?).
I have an uncle who recently died from cancer and it took a LONG time for the pastor to visit them. Many members were upset about it and contacted him and that's what finally got him to visit. The bad thing is (just like your case), my parent's pastor visited him when they hadn't even heard from their own pastor. This is a man who had been a faithful member and servant to the church for years. This really hurt them. They needed encouragement and prayer. This was enough to make them want to visit my parent's church. The most important thing we can do is show love.
I'm not blaming all pastors, but their should be someone (if not a pastor) in charge of this ministry. And, it's just sad that we are all too busy in life to show the much needed love that people like them need. :( My prayers are with your parents.
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RE: This just isn't right. - 9/7/2008 7:32:38 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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The ministry, in my opinion, is not just up to the leaders. The ministry, in my opinion, is every members' job and should be every members' interest and concern. However, It Must Be Coordinated.
I will tell you what is done where I attend because it works. Someone in the congregation hears that another is in the hospital or severely ill. That person asks about family food allergies and family food needs then organizes a food-delivery schedule with those who are willing to take food by. The congregation is told when it is a good time to visit, when not to visit, and under what circumstances to visit (like call or get permission first, etc.). The leaders, then, are free to follow the same rules set up by the organizer as well as to get on with perfecting of the members untill we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of G-d, unto a perfected believer with the measure of the stature of the maturity of Messiah.
The attitude is that we are the congregation, altogether. The leaders are not the only ones who represent the congregation. The leaders are not the only ones able to pray, to minister, to visit.
With all that said, I have had times when I thought I was going to be in and out of the hospital so quickly that I told no one in my congregation. I ended up staying longer than I expected, but I still did not tell. Why? Because I simply did not want to bother them. I know that some were upset because those where I worked knew I was sick, so they came. Don't assume too much. If I had told my congregation, they would have been there, and I knew it.
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Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: This just isn't right. - 9/7/2008 11:13:55 PM
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PopsiLufsJesus
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I like what you said Abiyah.
It seems sometimes that 10 % of the church does 80 % of the work...
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Then He said to His disciples, “The harvest truly is plentiful, but the laborers are few. Therefore pray the Lord of the harvest to send out laborers into His harvest.” ~Matthew 9:37-38 
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RE: This just isn't right. - 9/8/2008 12:12:49 AM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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Thank you, Popsi.
But one thing I have been avoiding saying is this:
People just clearly have a hard time with ministry to those in homes, from nursing homes to any other types of homes for those who cannot live among the rest of us. I can see why -- it is obvious -- but why can believers, of all people, not get over it, for good night!
My parents made many grievous errors, but one thing they did right was that they would take my sister and me with them as they held services in such homes. It was hard. I dreaded going then. But we went.
While in the old church, I had a ministry to a local home. I would prepare a schedule, setting up a pianist (if possible), a couple singers, at least one child (if possible), and a speaker. We would go and hold the "normal" service that the old church did for those people, with music, hymn-singing, and a sermon. When I could get children to go, they would sing a solo, duet, or whatever.
But the fact is that to many churches, these people are just throw-aways. I'm sorry, but this is absolutely true. The older one gets, the less likely they are to get any attention whatsoever from churches, which are too focused on church-growth, and getting new young families in, to give a hoot. These people don't contribute, so they are not worth the bother.
(And if they do try to contribute, my suggestion is to not take any funds, suggesting, instead, that they send their contributions to their old churches -- even if they are not showing up to see them.)
Why is it that pagan countries strongly honor their aged, while the U.S. churches, which have every opportunity to have Truth, pretend that they don't exist? These are the people who, as a whole, are closest to Eternity, and they are completely ignored. If we really believed what we claim -- that there is an Eternity to be spent with or without G-d -- we would be at the homes' doors, begging to be let in, to hold services.
G-d, help us!
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: This just isn't right. - 9/8/2008 12:31:51 AM
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PopsiLufsJesus
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..and I'll try...I'll
TRY...
to touch the world like YOU touched my life...
~ Audio Adrenaline...
_____________________________
Then He said to His disciples, “The harvest truly is plentiful, but the laborers are few. Therefore pray the Lord of the harvest to send out laborers into His harvest.” ~Matthew 9:37-38
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RE: This just isn't right. - 9/27/2008 2:43:28 PM
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Marksman
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Mrs. Noah, with most of these posts, I have never heard such sanctimonious claptrap. This church has got problems and the first one is that it is obviously in business to give the pastors a job. The needs of the congregation come a very distant second.
The word in the NT for pastor is Poimen which means to shepherd. If these so called pastors are not shepherding, they have no right to be called pastors and should step aside and let those that have this ministry to take over.
In addition we are all called to bear one another's burdens. A person should not have to ask for help. A church that cares for each other knows the appropriate response and makes sure that anyone is cared for in the appropriate way.
The fact that the church knows about the problem and has done nothing about it is appaling. Sounds more like a business to me than a church.
We have members that have emotional and mental problems and we don't wait until we are invited to visit them. We do it automatically every week and if they don't want that they tell us.
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God Bless America
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RE: This just isn't right. - 9/27/2008 11:27:00 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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Wow. Those are very strong words, Marksman. It is horrible, unconscionable, that the pastor has so totally dropped the ball on this, but where in the world is everyone else? What are their excuses? Where in the Bible does it say that caring for the sick, hungry, and naked is the leaders' job, and everyone else can twiddle their thumbs that the leader is going to take care of it?
Furthermore, some of us are very private individuals. If I want help, I will have to make it known, as we have not clairvoyants in the congregation.
Additionally, you wrote "that the church knows about the problem and has done nothing about it is appaling." Indeed, it is, but who is this "church"? Does the Bible not say such a gathering is the congregation -- all of it, not just the leader?
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Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: This just isn't right. - 9/29/2008 6:06:04 AM
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Marksman
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I obviously cannot speak for your fellowship, but you will find that more often than not, what the leader models is what the church does. If the leader does not model hospitality the church won't. Most leaders don't want you to do anything that they do not aprove of or do not see as important, so if you have a ministry of hospitality and major on it but the leader does not, he will take exception to your ministry even though it is from God.
Mrs. Noah's fellowship is like it is because the leadership don't see the need to do what they are paid to do and that is to pastor. Therefore the fellowship will not see the need.
Having studied church life, the activity of the church is designed to get the results it does. Inviting a professional from outside the church usually means that it is there to facilitate the ministry of that person, so the people just become an adjunct to the leader. Your usefulness is to enhance the ministry of the minister.
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God Bless America
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RE: This just isn't right. - 9/29/2008 12:22:46 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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Okay, I understand, to a point, what you are writing in your first paragraph, but to me, this also looks strongly like a failure on the whole congregation's part. That the church did not respond is complete failure -- they are not innocent, just as their leader is not innocent.
I have been in my present congregation, off and on until mid-December, 1999, even from the time when we fit in a small living room, and it was never up to the leaders to do these things; it was always up to all of us, inclusive of the leaders.
However, when you wrote, "Your usefulness is to enhance the ministry of the minister," that really surprised me. Where I attend, we are all ministers and are constantly told that -- we are all ministers (servants) to one another and are expected to act as such. Are you writing that this is the commonly accepted church-way of doing things, or are you writing that this is the "right" way? Whatever your answer, I am glad that where i attend, we are all expected to respond to those who need and not just leave it up to the leaders. I just could not handle thinking that I am only there to enhance the leaders.
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Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: This just isn't right. - 9/29/2008 9:21:47 PM
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Marksman
Posts: 269
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From: Drouin, Victoria, Australia
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quote:
I have been in my present congregation, off and on until mid-December, 1999, even from the time when we fit in a small living room, and it was never up to the leaders to do these things; it was always up to all of us, inclusive of the leaders.
Two things. One, your fellowship is not in question. Two, making a case out of one example is like making a doctrine out of one verse.
Because my background is theological college and university and I have worked as a researcher for christian organisations, I restrict myself to that which is quantifiable. To achieve this you need a body of research with consistent outcomes, which means more than one example.
I very rarely make any statement without first researching the subject, which includes quantifiable research. Until I have done this, I don't feel I can speak with any authority on the subject.
Therefore the obvious conclusion is that your fellowship does not inform me about the situation in general. I was in a fellowship in England for 10 years where we didn't have a pastor because we didn't need one, due to the fact that everyone was a pastor to everyone else. Having said that, I have not been in or seen one like that anywhere else.
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God Bless America
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RE: This just isn't right. - 9/30/2008 6:58:58 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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You know, Mark, I understand that you are very impressed with your studies and your knowledge. No problem. But it is very difficult for the rest of us to be so impressed when you come here, judge people harshly, assume things to be facts even though they have not been written here, promote your site which has biblical errors (baptize in Jesus' name only), make snide statements, and are so completely humorless. I guess I'll stop there.
People on Crosswalk are people, not institutions. I recognize that you see yourself as an institution, but the majority of us come here and write about our experiences as people! Of course, we recognize that what we write and experience are limited by our little lives, but you don't seem to understand that for yourself. That is your misfortune.
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: This just isn't right. - 10/1/2008 7:15:04 AM
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Marksman
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quote:
You know, Mark, I understand that you are very impressed with your studies and your knowledge. No problem.
The fact that you have raised the issue in a perjorative way indicates that it is a problem for you. As a result you are unable to compute that what I said was to enable you to understand how I think and the reason I think like I do because you are obviously filtering everything through your prejudice against people who have the temerity to disagree with you.
quote:
promote your site which has biblical errors (baptize in Jesus' name only),
I am still waiting for someone to show me from scripture that this is not fact.
quote:
I recognize that you see yourself as an institution,
You are the only one that does.
quote:
we recognize that what we write and experience are limited by our little lives
That is only the case if you choose it to be. I have a great big wonderful God and what and who I am is only limited by my ability to apprehend all that I am in Christ.
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God Bless America
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RE: This just isn't right. - 10/2/2008 12:56:51 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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You, Mark, are a problem for me, because you are elusive, you don't give straight answers, and you constantly promote your site which is oneness or a reasonable facsimile of oneness. That bothers me. Strongly. I have been around oneness people many times over the last 45 years, and those experiences give me strong reason to be concerned.
As far as my ability to "compute," I have no desire or need to "understand" you any further. You have strongly proven who and what you are.
However, your statement, quote:
because you are obviously filtering everything through your prejudice against people who have the temerity to disagree with you was quite humorous. You have No clue.
However, as of now, you are no longer "a problem."
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: This just isn't right. - 10/2/2008 2:03:12 PM
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Focusing
Posts: 6021
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quote:
quote:
(baptize in Jesus' name only),
I am still waiting for someone to show me from scripture that this is not fact.
Jesus: Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost - Matthew 28:19
_____________________________
There is an appointed time for everything. And there is a time for every event under heaven
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RE: This just isn't right. - 10/2/2008 6:29:58 PM
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gmc4Jesus
Posts: 227
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From: Torrance, California
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My experience as a minister and learning about the issues of other ministers is that the pastors at your church need volunteers and others who can come and take some of the workload from them. That workload, in most churches, includes visiting those in the hospital.
In a larger church, it becomes even more difficult for the paid pastors to make hospital visits. Time doesn't allow them that liberty. Therefore, it is important for you, small group leaders, elders and others to step in and minister to the needs of those saings.
This is a ministry for the elders, small group leaders and members. If you were a part of a small group, then why aren't they going to see him?
Another thought here is: Do you visit others when they are in the hospital? I do not intend to be judgmental on a situationn I barely know anything about, but if we are busy ministering to others, they will make themselves busy ministering to us when we are in need.
May God bless you with workable solutions and people of compassion who will come, visit, pray and love you you as you are going through this trial. May he grant quick healing so you may return to normal life and continue to bless Him who died for you.
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Let's talk about Jesus, His life and teachings at the www.gettingtoknowjesus.org Gospel Study Forum.
Home of "Getting To Know Jesus", a complete Bible study on the life and teachings of Jesus.
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RE: This just isn't right. - 10/3/2008 5:24:46 AM
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Marksman
Posts: 269
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From: Drouin, Victoria, Australia
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quote:
I have been around oneness people many times over the last 45 years, and those experiences give me strong reason to be concerned.
As I have said before, I don't live my life according to what other people believe. I prefer to search the scriptures for myself and find out what they say as opposed to what other people saying what they think they say. Apart from following scripture when baptising has nothing to do with the oneness doctrine as you would know if you knew what their doctrine was, which obviously you don't or you would not have made the comparison.
quote:
Jesus: Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost - Matthew 28:19
Sorry focusing, you will have to do better than that. This is one verse and it is accepted exegesis that you do not make a doctrine out of one verse of scripture. Do a search as I did for the word baptism and you will find that every other verse talks about being baptised in the name of Jesus or Jesus Christ.
Apart from that fact, the flaw with the trinitarian view is that Matthew says to baptise in the name of the .... Father, Son and Holy Spirit are not names they are titles. Therefore if you are baptising in the trinity you are not baptising in the name, you are baptising in the titles. To do that is to be disobedient to scripture.
Apart from that, the fact is that we are told to do everything else in the name of Jesus not in the titles of the godhead. i.e. pray in jesus name; cast out demons in jesus name; give thanks in jesus name.
The basis of all doctrine is the general revelation of scripture. In this case baptism in the titles of the godhead is not supported.
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God Bless America
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RE: This just isn't right. - 10/3/2008 7:48:32 AM
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Focusing
Posts: 6021
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Marksman,
Jesus said it, and that works for me (and countless other believers). I was providing scripture to your statement
quote:
I am still waiting for someone to show me from scripture that this is not fact.
which I did. I for one am not going to discount what Jesus said.
However, if you want to debate baptism, I'm certain you can find a thread over in Christian Doctrine. Perhaps a mod can provide a link to assist you.
_____________________________
There is an appointed time for everything. And there is a time for every event under heaven
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RE: This just isn't right. - 10/5/2008 7:34:30 PM
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Dancre
Posts: 1254
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You find that in a lot of these threads. Pretty sad, huh?
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
I have read through this thread and I find a lot of sincere posters (lightshiningon, and others) who are concerned about the Church and itl car of the folks attending the Chruch.
I also find what I feel is a lot of smoke and mirrors and well I guess BS from some who just wish to bash Churches and Pastors.
That might be just me, but that is how I read it.
Thanks
RC
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RE: This just isn't right. - 10/5/2008 8:25:20 PM
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Consecrated2God
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ATTENTION: Moderator's Note
This thread is not about baptism. Please return to the topic. Thank you.
Please do not reply to this message within the Community.
Please email Community@salemwebnetwork.com with questions, comments, or concerns.
Please do not send me PMs regarding this message.
Thank you for your attention and complicance in this matter.
Lisa Luper
Faith Community Network
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We are leaders of a new Sunday school class and one of the first things I did was ask a couple to join our class because they are good with loving others. I know they will be there when we cannot. 
