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RE: This just isn't right. - 4/19/2008 9:53:42 AM
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lightshineon
Posts: 3538
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I am sorry, yes, pick and choose is what I see also, I do not care if it is a church of 1,000 people there should be systems in place, that no one feels unloved by pastor, staff, or members. I have seen this often also, the popular, the pastors and staffs family, the rich whatever, well they have to turn visitors away. Lukewarm, and when do we become the church of brotherly love? All members having the same care, and love for one another, No one said love is easy it is hard work.
quote:
ORIGINAL: gmedifast
Unfortunately this is the shape that our churches have gotten into. I had 2 episdoes of long illness where my church has not stepped up to support me and it hurts. Several years ago I had surgery and my pastor (in a church of less than 100 and I was on staff) did not visit me before, during or after. On top of that the church people completely started to ignore us and everyone dropped us like hot potatoes. Again recently after surgery again, my church---a different church---did very little to support us, howbeit we found out that they were coordinating food and other items for other members in the church in the same situation. It is really easy to get a complex in these situations. I believe the church has lost the ability to care for one another. The church also has to be careful when they "pick and choose" who they are going to take care of. If you do something for one, you need to at least reach out and do it for all people. Both of these churches were less than 100 people so it was not like they did not know we needed help. With the last time, the illness went on for several months and we were out of work and struggling and there were days we did not know if we were going to make it. I told my wife I just wish someone would show they cared.
Oh to be his hand extended Glenn
_____________________________
Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: This just isn't right. - 4/19/2008 9:58:13 AM
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gmedifast
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quote:
lightshineon
I agree with a what you had to say.
My pastor does not work a secular job....and yet he is always "so busy" Busy doing what we run less than 100 people. There is no excuses for not tending to the people especially when there is sickness involved. I work 50 hours a week and spend another 20-25---working my church doing a 100 jobs because people will not step up and help.
Do not get me wrong, I love what do, I do it to build the kingdom, it is when a person gives so much, when you fall down, you want someone to pick you up. A card, a hot meal, a phone call, a visit....sometimes you would settle for an e-mail. But when they don't come, what it tells you is...we are going to use and abuse you and your gifts....but buddy when you can't function in those roles please don't bother me I have to move on to the biggest and best.
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RE: This just isn't right. - 4/19/2008 10:09:57 AM
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lightshineon
Posts: 3538
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You are alot like me, a willing servant, maybe we are not perfect, but there is alot to be said for the "willing". This is not bragging, there are others, but not enough to be "willing" I am sorry if this is bragging, not intended to be, just truth. I am so sorry what happened to you and husband it was wrong without excuse. 100 members, and they could not have loved you enough to break away from Monday night Football.
quote:
ORIGINAL: gmedifast
quote:
lightshineon
I agree with a what you had to say.
My pastor does not work a secular job....and yet he is always "so busy" Busy doing what we run less than 100 people. There is no excuses for not tending to the people especially when there is sickness involved. I work 50 hours a week and spend another 20-25---working my church doing a 100 jobs because people will not step up and help.
Do not get me wrong, I love what do, I do it to build the kingdom, it is when a person gives so much, when you fall down, you want someone to pick you up. A card, a hot meal, a phone call, a visit....sometimes you would settle for an e-mail. But when they don't come, what it tells you is...we are going to use and abuse you and your gifts....but buddy when you can't function in those roles please don't bother me I have to move on to the biggest and best.
_____________________________
Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: This just isn't right. - 4/19/2008 10:14:28 AM
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Kat_D
Posts: 3130
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From: Where We Shake, Rattle & Roll!
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quote:
ORIGINAL Lightshineon
They are to equip the saints. How do you do that, but being a leader.
Our church's main focus is to train up the body for the work of the ministry and we do a great job at doing that. However, in the last several years, we have noticed a lack of responsibility and commitment on the parts of many that have been trained. if no one shows up, we (the staff) have to pick up the slack...and believe me, this happens so often it's pathetic.
I also find lately that there is a general lack of respect and people have become extremely critical of pastors and church staff...So quick to jump all over them for their shortcomings and cut them absolutely no slack just like you did. Personally, I'm tired of it! Maybe that's because I'm up close and personal and see the hours and hours of work our pastor and our staff put in to assure that the people are properly cared for. It's a tough job and as I said, the body makes it no easier by their lack of responsibility...oh, and btw, you can talk to me about our shortcomings after you've walked a mile in our shoes.
_____________________________
~Kat
"...And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes...no more death, sorrow, nor crying."
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RE: This just isn't right. - 4/19/2008 10:19:43 AM
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gmedifast
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quote:
So, with all the respect I can muster, put a lid on it!
Do you have programs in place to empower your lay people to do some of the work? Maybe you guys need to step back evaluate how you do things, crash all your busy ministry's and begin to build people to do things that you are doing in which lay people can do. You would be surprised how many people want to help but don't know how or where. Maybe some strong Wednesday night teachings on gifting and callings and then put people to work.
You sound frustrated, and I am sorry. But in many cases the pastoral department wants to be a one person show and what happens is they forget empower their lay people when the ministry grows. I attended a large well-known church a few years ago...I was absolutely amazed at the volunteers at that church from the time we got there to the time we left. You would probably be surprised at how many gifted people are sitting dormant in your church with gifts to do everything from administration to teaching. Don't be afraid to train and trust them to do the act of ministry.
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RE: This just isn't right. - 4/19/2008 10:51:16 AM
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Kat_D
Posts: 3130
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gmedifast
quote:
So, with all the respect I can muster, put a lid on it!
Do you have programs in place to empower your lay people to do some of the work? Maybe you guys need to step back evaluate how you do things, crash all your busy ministry's and begin to build people to do things that you are doing in which lay people can do. You would be surprised how many people want to help but don't know how or where. Maybe some strong Wednesday night teachings on gifting and callings and then put people to work.
You sound frustrated, and I am sorry. But in many cases the pastoral department wants to be a one person show and what happens is they forget empower their lay people when the ministry grows. I attended a large well-known church a few years ago...I was absolutely amazed at the volunteers at that church from the time we got there to the time we left. You would probably be surprised at how many gifted people are sitting dormant in your church with gifts to do everything from administration to teaching. Don't be afraid to train and trust them to do the act of ministry.
Hmmm...you make a lot of incorrect assumptions.
Yes, as I said in my previous post, we do train our people properly...it's just that when they don't show up, it's much easier to just do it ourselves than to have to do what we do, and then have to run behind those who are not responsible and clean up their messes on top of it!
I only get frustrated when (being on the inside) I know how much hard work is put in by staff and pastors and then to have people rip us apart...well, yes, it is extremely disheartening and frustrating. We are human, for heaven's sake.
_____________________________
~Kat
"...And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes...no more death, sorrow, nor crying."
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RE: This just isn't right. - 4/19/2008 10:59:15 AM
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lightshineon
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Kat, did you not read I am busy too? What are the staff so busy with? I am a lay person doing more, at times than our paid staff. So well, walk in my shoes, but for free. Now it could have be people do fall through the cracks, but how many cracks are allowed. Again what is staff so busy with? If they are so much more busy than people working fulltime, with families, ministries whatever, let them just take a moment, pick up the phone and ask someone, to go, send cards whatever. If they are in charge let them delegate. Send mass e-mailings to the members asking them to visit. Most of the time, the staff knows what is happening with members of the body, because the church is called first. So at the very least staff can mass e-mail, picking up the phone ect.... I am sure this can be done with very little effort. No one is ripping anyone apart, they just want to know they matter. Your pastor and staff maybe very busy, that is not my call, but, I am saying what is the most important thing. And I also mentioned members of the body who are equipped, to do these things also. I also feel people feel a lack of respect from pastors and staff. Though you say yours is doing all they can, so I will buy that.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Kat_D
quote:
ORIGINAL Lightshineon
They are to equip the saints. How do you do that, but being a leader.
Our church's main focus is to train up the body for the work of the ministry and we do a great job at doing that. However, in the last several years, we have noticed a lack of responsibility and commitment on the parts of many that have been trained. if no one shows up, we (the staff) have to pick up the slack...and believe me, this happens so often it's pathetic.
I also find lately that there is a general lack of respect and people have become extremely critical of pastors and church staff...So quick to jump all over them for their shortcomings and cut them absolutely no slack just like you did. Personally, I'm tired of it! Maybe that's because I'm up close and personal and see the hours and hours of work our pastor and our staff put in to assure that the people are properly cared for. It's a tough job and as I said, the body makes it no easier by their lack of responsibility...oh, and btw, you can talk to me about our shortcomings after you've walked a mile in our shoes.
< Message edited by lightshineon -- 4/19/2008 11:09:00 AM >
_____________________________
Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: This just isn't right. - 4/19/2008 11:11:44 AM
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lightshineon
Posts: 3538
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I am not bashing pastors, I know most are dedicated Shepards who care about people. I also know things have become, sort of upside down on what is important in the body, so fault lies on a myrid of folks. I know us who do lay ministries in our church are few, trying to hold everything up also, because we are willing. I know I will continue to be willing, because I serve Jesus Christ. The Bible talks about, how Jesus and his disciples went without food, because the were working so hard. hard work, for the Kingdom is what is expected of us, all of us.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Consecrated2God
Kat, I agree that I get tired of pastor-bashing. There's a lot of it going on out there. But on the other hand, I've also seen pastors say a lot of not-so-nice things about their people, too, so it goes both ways. I've heard pastors say things like, "I love the ministry--it's the people I can't stand." 
I wish people would take responsibility for their own actions and not be so busy blaming everyone else.
< Message edited by lightshineon -- 4/19/2008 11:18:23 AM >
_____________________________
Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: This just isn't right. - 4/19/2008 11:19:34 AM
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Kat_D
Posts: 3130
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Consecrated2God
Kat, I agree that I get tired of pastor-bashing. There's a lot of it going on out there. But on the other hand, I've also seen pastors say a lot of not-so-nice things about their people, too, so it goes both ways. I've heard pastors say things like, "I love the ministry--it's the people I can't stand."
I wish people would take responsibility for their own actions and not be so busy blaming everyone else.
Amen and Amen!
If I ever heard a pastor say something like the one you quoted, I'd be out of there in 2 seconds flat, because it would be obvious that pastor was absolutely in the wrong line of work.
It certainly is a two way street...no one is perfect but bashing pastors and staff in a general way is not something I'd ever engage in. All pastors and churches are unique and all pastors and staff make mistakes. Before I'd cause division by bashing them and putting them down, I'd find another church.
If I may return to the topic to sum it up for me...
Once again, I think the OP's father may have fallen through the cracks for some reason and that is unfortunate. Then again, no one called to let the pastors know he was in the hospital or to say they actually wanted a visit, so I can't hold the church entirely responsible because there was likely some degree of failure on both sides. If I wanted a hospital visit and no one came, I wouldn't just lay there waiting for it to happen...then, after taking no action, get upset because no one ever showed up.
_____________________________
~Kat
"...And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes...no more death, sorrow, nor crying."
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RE: This just isn't right. - 4/19/2008 11:25:31 AM
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lightshineon
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I wonder why no one noticed him missing. Did anybody members, pastor, teacher check on him? No one is pastor bashing, you are taking this way to personal. I did not read where it said no one called. Church is most likely one of the first places called.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Kat_D
quote:
ORIGINAL: Consecrated2God
Kat, I agree that I get tired of pastor-bashing. There's a lot of it going on out there. But on the other hand, I've also seen pastors say a lot of not-so-nice things about their people, too, so it goes both ways. I've heard pastors say things like, "I love the ministry--it's the people I can't stand."
I wish people would take responsibility for their own actions and not be so busy blaming everyone else.
Amen and Amen!
If I ever heard a pastor say something like the one you quoted, I'd be out of there in 2 seconds flat, because it would be obvious that pastor was absolutely in the wrong line of work.
It certainly is a two way street...no one is perfect but bashing pastors and staff in a general way is not something I'd ever engage in. All pastors and churches are unique and all pastors and staff make mistakes. Before I'd cause division by bashing them and putting them down, I'd find another church.
If I may return to the topic to sum it up for me...
Once again, I think the OP's father may have fallen through the cracks for some reason and that is unfortunate. Then again, no one called to let the pastors know he was in the hospital or to say they actually wanted a visit, so I can't hold the church entirely responsible because there was likely some degree of failure on both sides. If I wanted a hospital visit and no one came, I wouldn't just lay there waiting for it to happen...then, after taking no action, get upset because no one ever showed up.
_____________________________
Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: This just isn't right. - 4/19/2008 11:27:35 AM
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lightshineon
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So the church was aware. It is a given a visit of encouragement was needed very much, by someone.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mrs.Noah
The church is aware of what's going on. At least the first Wed. his name was in the prayer bulletin, and he has received several cards.
_____________________________
Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: This just isn't right. - 4/19/2008 12:45:30 PM
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tafkam
Posts: 2069
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This is not uncommon. I went through a horrid time both physically and spiritually a few years ago, I even stopped attending church for almost a year. Not a single phone call or visit or anything.
Now that I'm "back" so to speak, I really try to keep up with folks. If I notice someone hasn't been in Sunday School or choir for a couple of weeks, I take it upon myself to call them and see what's up. They are always very grateful.
Never put too much trust in man, they'll let you down every time....
_____________________________
"The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.' - Ronald Reagan
Tafkam
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RE: This just isn't right. - 4/19/2008 2:15:00 PM
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Consecrated2God
Posts: 4984
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The thing is, generalizations aren't very helpful for a specific situation like this. It's easy enough to say, "Well, churches just don't care about each other like they should" but we don't know if that's the case in this instance. It might be. I don't know. A lot of churches do struggle with trying to get people to care for one another. On the other hand, a lot of churches are full of love and care. Our church is very close knit. About a month ago, one of the ladies had a horse that was in labor and all the women were out helping the horse give birth. But that's my church, not everyone else's church. I can't become defensive because "MY church isn't like that!" but neither can I easily dismiss this church in question as one of "those" churches that don't like they should.
The fact is, we don't know why they didn't visit, and unless the OP calls and finds out and lets us know, we can only guess.
_____________________________
<--Plantation house in Louisiana
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RE: This just isn't right. - 4/19/2008 10:40:58 PM
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lightshineon
Posts: 3538
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I know your husband is hard working, remember when he as working going to school, had very little strength, and I said, maybe God is preparing him for the ministry, I know you work hard. Horse birthing may have been something, I may not have had the courage to be part of (LOL). I never got that I, are anyone else were bashing pastors, and find it offensive another sister would say "put a lid on it." That is not right, this was not her church, and is more than rude. I do not understand that kind of attitude. Kat D and I have always gotten on well, so, really shocked at the rude attitude towards me.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Consecrated2God
The thing is, generalizations aren't very helpful for a specific situation like this. It's easy enough to say, "Well, churches just don't care about each other like they should" but we don't know if that's the case in this instance. It might be. I don't know. A lot of churches do struggle with trying to get people to care for one another. On the other hand, a lot of churches are full of love and care. Our church is very close knit. About a month ago, one of the ladies had a horse that was in labor and all the women were out helping the horse give birth. But that's my church, not everyone else's church. I can't become defensive because "MY church isn't like that!" but neither can I easily dismiss this church in question as one of "those" churches that don't like they should.
The fact is, we don't know why they didn't visit, and unless the OP calls and finds out and lets us know, we can only guess.
_____________________________
Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: This just isn't right. - 4/19/2008 11:40:50 PM
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Kat_D
Posts: 3130
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I apologize, Light. I'm sorry that I hurt you by my flippant comment. I just know how difficult it can be for church staff and pastors and they take a lot of flak and criticism. I do know we can always do better and we try to work hard at that. Your post just sort of threw me over the edge. I have always known you to be kind and encouraging. Please forgive me.
_____________________________
~Kat
"...And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes...no more death, sorrow, nor crying."
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RE: This just isn't right. - 4/20/2008 12:17:21 AM
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funny_girl
Posts: 882
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Is it possible that the gentleman being neglected IS the representative from the church that normally visits the sick?
What happened to the OP? Never responded after her second post? I wonder how her dad is? I sure hope someone has gone to visit him.
To bad we are fallible men serving here.
I think our society figures that people want to be left alone. I remember one of our parishioners, a widow of a younger pastor, didn't like a lot of company and would ask us not to bother her. Probably rare.
< Message edited by funny_girl -- 4/20/2008 12:29:51 AM >
_____________________________
"...bad report and good report; genuine, yet regarded as imposters; known yet regarded as unknown...poor, yet making many rich; having nothing, and yet possessing everything." II Corinthians 6:8-10
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RE: This just isn't right. - 4/20/2008 12:20:44 AM
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lightshineon
Posts: 3538
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Oh, I forgive you, forgive me, if I was out of line. (LOL) sometimes things just get to us. I know they do me in my ministry. I went off on poor husband today. He is still going HUH? I am sure your church and pastor, and you are great. I have always known you to be kind, and very intelligent.  Friends again?
quote:
ORIGINAL: Kat_D
I apologize, Light. I'm sorry that I hurt you by my flippant comment. I just know how difficult it can be for church staff and pastors and they take a lot of flak and criticism. I do know we can always do better and we try to work hard at that. Your post just sort of threw me over the edge. I have always known you to be kind and encouraging. Please forgive me.
_____________________________
Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: This just isn't right. - 9/4/2008 11:53:44 AM
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Mrs.Noah
Posts: 17
Joined: 1/30/2007
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Hello,
There have been several good posts that have caused me to do some soul searching. I appreciate everyone's posts. My folks or I are not in any way mad, nor do I feel that I am pastor or church bashing, and I apologize if I come across that way. Some of you did not read my posts carefully enough.
It's been over four months since I last posted, and my dad has been in and out of the hospital several times since then with some serious infections. I think each time he was in he received a couple of visits from one or more of the pastors. They would usually come when dad was either at dialysis or having some sort of a test run. They would leave a business card with a note written on the back. We are thankful for the efforts they made, especially since the hospital is about 20 miles from the church. In total dad was probably in the hospital more than 30 days, and not one church member visited. His name appears in the Wed. night prayer bulletin weekly. Each time he has been in the hospital I have called church office to let them know. My dad has told the pastor a couple of times when he was still able to get to church that he was disappointed that he (pastor) had not been to see him during his previous hospital stay, and then went on to tell him once that even the pastor of my husband's church had been to see him. I don't think there should be any question that my dad wants to be visited when in the hospital. I'm not trying to be smart here, but does the Bible tells us anywhere that when we are aware of someone hurting or see someone in need, we should wait until they ask for help before we visit or offer help?
My folks have not been to church since dad broke his hip. He's had two visits from a fellow SS member and these took place at least two months ago. Dad is on heavy duty antibiotic and has lost his appetite and is existing on nutrition drinks these days. He has lost about 50 pounds and gets weaker by the day. He is pretty much bedridden except for the time that he goes to dialysis. He is receiving home hospice care now, and I don't think he will live much longer. My mom has commented a couple of times that she wonders where all the people are that she thought were their friends. They have received cards from people stating they would be by for a visit, but as of yet have not shown up. I run into people out in public that have stated that they would be by for a visit, but that is as far as it goes. My dad called me one evening a week or so ago and expressed how disappointed he is that no one comes to visit. This is the first time he has called me in months. We see each other several times a day and making a phone call is a huge effort for him, so I know for him to call me means he is really hurt by this. A couple days later, he called one of the secretaries at the church and told her how disgusted (his word) he was with the fact that no one comes by for a visit. The secretary told him she couldn't believe that. That is all my dad told me about the conversation. This happened over a week ago now and as of yet there have been no calls or visits. He told me over the weekend he guessed it was time to find a new church.
Things have gotten even more complicated recently in that my mom may have a reoccurance of lymphoma that she first had a little over three years ago. She has a mass in her abdomen and the oncologist is assuming it is lymphoma. She had a PET scan recently that will show if she has any cancer in any other places. My mom's SS class is aware of this, but she has received no calls or visits.
As stated in my first post, my parents have been faithful members, attenders and tithers of this church for a very long time. My dad has been in a wheelchair for 14 years and has been sickly most of this time so they have not served the church in the way a lot of people can. They are, however, prayer warriors. I can't help but think that if my folks gave lots of money, were charter members or on staff, they wouldn't be ignored like they seem to be. I want to write a nasty letter and send it to several people stating that if they can't come around now not to show up and pretend to care after he's gone, but I know that would be wrong and accomplish nothing. I am upset that there is no Shut-In ministry in place. There appears to be no evidence of the shepherd heart of Jesus because the shepherd heart of Jesus goes after the sheep or sends someone after them to help, hold while wounded, build back up, strengthen and encourage. I doubt whether this church is functioning as a healthy church body when the love of Christ is not being offered.
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RE: This just isn't right. - 9/4/2008 1:01:22 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 5693
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
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I have read through this thread and I find a lot of sincere posters (lightshiningon, and others) who are concerned about the Church and itl car of the folks attending the Chruch.
I also find what I feel is a lot of smoke and mirrors and well I guess BS from some who just wish to bash Churches and Pastors.
That might be just me, but that is how I read it.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: This just isn't right. - 9/4/2008 1:07:02 PM
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LaurainAL
Posts: 1260
Joined: 8/13/2005
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quote:
If they are so busy I ask again with what Kat?
Study, Sermon Prep, Prayer, Administration, etc...
Seriously...do some of you thing a pastor just sits around all day with nothing to do???
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