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RE: SEX OFFENDERS IN THE CHURCH.... - 4/18/2008 1:15:25 PM
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WesP
Posts: 2463
Joined: 11/28/2005
From: Where God needs me to be
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: percussionlover
quote:
and I say Church is for Christians.
rcjames....again,i ask from your quote...if a sex offender is a born-again christian is he or she a christian in your eyes & if they are born-again that means church is for them cause they are a christian......just wanderin
RC said:
quote:
I offer them counsel (how ever much is necessary) invite them to the men's ministry night (all men and no children) and tell them if they come back to a regular service at the Church they are to sit back close to the door where I can see them. That they are to leave shortly after Church and if they get up to go to the bathroom or just to wander around during the service: I will stop preaching and go along with them. They are informed that they will not be coming to family fellowships, children's events etc.
Now if they want to become more involved they are ask to come before the congregation and explain who they are, what they have done, and explain about their repentance, counselling, etc. (I have found that folks who are truly repentant of any sin are not embarrased to speak to the Glory of God's Grace and his love and care in the recovery area.
If they are not open to those guidlines I tell them to not come back to the Church, though I still offer private or group counsel from myself and the other leaders of the Church.
That means if they follow the guidelines, they can attend.
_____________________________
Peace,
Wes
___________________________________
<--- BTW, this is the true function of corn! It is to help the oil industry and its functionaries, not detract from them! 
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RE: SEX OFFENDERS IN THE CHURCH.... - 4/18/2008 2:08:46 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 5229
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WesSavedByGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: percussionlover
quote:
and I say Church is for Christians.
rcjames....again,i ask from your quote...if a sex offender is a born-again christian is he or she a christian in your eyes & if they are born-again that means church is for them cause they are a christian......just wanderin
RC said:
quote:
I offer them counsel (how ever much is necessary) invite them to the men's ministry night (all men and no children) and tell them if they come back to a regular service at the Church they are to sit back close to the door where I can see them. That they are to leave shortly after Church and if they get up to go to the bathroom or just to wander around during the service: I will stop preaching and go along with them. They are informed that they will not be coming to family fellowships, children's events etc.
Now if they want to become more involved they are ask to come before the congregation and explain who they are, what they have done, and explain about their repentance, counselling, etc. (I have found that folks who are truly repentant of any sin are not embarrased to speak to the Glory of God's Grace and his love and care in the recovery area.
If they are not open to those guidlines I tell them to not come back to the Church, though I still offer private or group counsel from myself and the other leaders of the Church.
That means if they follow the guidelines, they can attend.
Yes and I have met hundreds of pedeophiles as a Pastor, Prison Chaplain, etc. and have yet to meet one who has repented and that I would let babysit my grandchildren.
Now I do have an ex-murder in my Church, he killed three folks that raped his little sister about 20 years ago. He does look after the children at times and I feel very comfortable about it. Everyone in Church knows his history and loves him.
Thanks
RC
edited for spelling
< Message edited by rcjames -- 4/18/2008 2:25:39 PM >
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: SEX OFFENDERS IN THE CHURCH.... - 4/18/2008 2:28:28 PM
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StephK
Posts: 1960
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Southwest Louisiana
Status: offline
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The thing with a lot of sex offenders is they often are very manipulative in order to prey on their victims. These are people who are experts at fooling people. They will say and do anything to get what they want even go to church. This is an area where you have to look at their actions and see if there is real fruit being produced and that takes TIME.
_____________________________
Stephanie
Communism "IS" socialism....
"How do you tell a Socialist:- It's someone who reads Marx and Lenin. And how do you tell an Anti-Socialist someone who understands Marx and Lenin" -Ronald Reagan
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RE: SEX OFFENDERS IN THE CHURCH.... - 4/18/2008 2:53:37 PM
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bluestone
Posts: 2934
Joined: 2/25/2008
From: United States of America
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The wisest pastor I ever had let us know up front his rule of thumb:
If you did it while unsaved(habitual sin) , you don't get in the way of temptation when you are saved.
ex gays stay away from gays or gay outreach
ex molesters stay away from kids
ex thieves stay away from the offering plate
adulterers stay away from the opposite sex
_____________________________
I need Christ. Not something that resembles Christ.
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RE: SEX OFFENDERS IN THE CHURCH.... - 4/18/2008 3:15:18 PM
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lw9
Posts: 1157
Joined: 7/22/2005
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quote:
bluestone: The wisest pastor I ever had let us know up front his rule of thumb:
If you did it while unsaved(habitual sin) , you don't get in the way of temptation when you are saved.
ex gays stay away from gays or gay outreach
ex molesters stay away from kids
ex thieves stay away from the offering plate
adulterers stay away from the opposite sex
Now that is some seriously wise advice. And I like the fact that he made this clear to everyone in the church.
_____________________________
Aperture Science. We do what we must because we can.
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RE: SEX OFFENDERS IN THE CHURCH.... - 4/18/2008 3:37:56 PM
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bluestone
Posts: 2934
Joined: 2/25/2008
From: United States of America
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It all goes back to the misconception of what forgiveness is...and what it is not.
_____________________________
I need Christ. Not something that resembles Christ.
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RE: SEX OFFENDERS IN THE CHURCH.... - 4/18/2008 3:38:52 PM
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phosadaud
Posts: 9791
Joined: 9/19/2005
From: Washington State
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Yep.
_____________________________
~Kristin~
42.7% of all statistics are made up on the spot.
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RE: SEX OFFENDERS IN THE CHURCH.... - 4/19/2008 10:51:57 AM
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zamdad
Posts: 1272
Joined: 4/8/2005
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I've been away from CW for the past couple days because of work. But, perusing through this thread again has me perplexedd. Percussionlover, it seems you have a misguided sense of forgiveness. Someone else asked how close you are to this sex offender. I am left wondering, is this about you? Like so many of the sex offenders I've worked with, you seem to want to get everyone to look past the crime that was committed and to move on, never looking back. While I agree with the principle that you can't move forward while looking at the rearview mirror, at the same time if we don't remember where we've been, we'll never know where we're going. To prevent someone from falling back into old stinkin thinkin patterns, accountability needs to be put in place. While background checks and registries are a start, they fall short of absolute security. We, the church, need to begin getting to know one another just as Christ knows us.
_____________________________
You can take the man out of Alaska, but you can't take Alaska out of the man.
Me
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RE: SEX OFFENDERS IN THE CHURCH.... - 4/19/2008 11:16:45 AM
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Memaw.
Posts: 2596
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Sunflower State
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quote:
We, the church, need to begin getting to know one another just as Christ knows us.
Zamdad,
*Standing ovation*
_____________________________
Life is uncertain...eat dessert first!
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RE: SEX OFFENDERS IN THE CHURCH.... - 4/19/2008 2:02:19 PM
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Kat_D
Posts: 3201
Joined: 9/2/2005
From: Where We Shake, Rattle & Roll!
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quote:
ORIGINAL: percussionlover
this person is on the sex registry as a sex offender for "attempted sexual battery without violence".
You know, this is something the OP said that struck me as odd, and perhaps it's an implication that he is attempting to make light of the crime the guy in his church was guilty of.
"Attempted sexual battery without violence"...just wondering how that works? The definition of Sexual Battery is:
"The forced penetration of or contact with another person’s or the perpetrator’s sexual organs. See also rape."
Just wondering how you attempt to do this to someone without violence. To me, the "forced" part is what makes the crime violent.
_____________________________
~Kat
"...And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes...no more death, sorrow, nor crying."
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RE: SEX OFFENDERS IN THE CHURCH.... - 4/19/2008 2:07:37 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 4431
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Kat_D
quote:
ORIGINAL: percussionlover
this person is on the sex registry as a sex offender for "attempted sexual battery without violence".
You know, this is something the OP said that struck me as odd, and perhaps it's an implication that he is attempting to make light of the crime the guy in his church was guilty of.
"Attempted sexual battery without violence"...just wondering how that works? The definition of Sexual Battery is:
"The forced penetration of or contact with another person’s or the perpetrator’s sexual organs. See also rape."
Just wondering how you attempt to do this to someone without violence. To me, the "forced" part is what makes the crime violent.
Trust me when I say that at times it's like the bad guys wrote the laws... I spent over a year going over rape cases during the trial regarding my children and I learned that the joke about tripping and falling on the women and raping her wasn't a (bad taste) joke but a viable defense in some ways...
John
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RE: SEX OFFENDERS IN THE CHURCH.... - 4/19/2008 3:31:56 PM
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phosadaud
Posts: 9791
Joined: 9/19/2005
From: Washington State
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Kat_D
quote:
ORIGINAL: percussionlover
this person is on the sex registry as a sex offender for "attempted sexual battery without violence".
You know, this is something the OP said that struck me as odd, and perhaps it's an implication that he is attempting to make light of the crime the guy in his church was guilty of.
"Attempted sexual battery without violence"...just wondering how that works? The definition of Sexual Battery is:
"The forced penetration of or contact with another person’s or the perpetrator’s sexual organs. See also rape."
Just wondering how you attempt to do this to someone without violence. To me, the "forced" part is what makes the crime violent.
Sexual battery includes more than just sexual assault. It can include molestation, sexual exploitation, etc. So, the doctor who gets his kicks touching a woman's private areas would not be using "violence" per se, but would be committing sexual battery - even if he didn't physically rape his patient. It would also include the victim not being aware of what was happening (they are somehow incapacitated).
It's really nothing more than legalese and certainly it's still a big deal and a serious crime.
_____________________________
~Kristin~
42.7% of all statistics are made up on the spot.
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RE: SEX OFFENDERS IN THE CHURCH.... - 4/19/2008 6:11:32 PM
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percussionlover
Posts: 91
Joined: 2/29/2008
Status: offline
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first of all..........no its not me..
second...his charge is listed as: attempted sexual battery without violence...and when i read thru his paper work from the courts etc....it stated that they had consentual sex,but later she cried rape. also the paper work said that there was no signs of rape etc when they did the rape kit......in the rape kit they only found a drop of seamen.
so basically they were taking her word against his & in the paper work also stated that she was taking prozack & because she was taking a prescribed drug that the state said she wasnt in the right state of mind to have consentual sex.....she was also 8 years older according to the paper work......so because of the prescribed drug thing...the prosecuter said it was without violence cause it was consentual,but they felt since she was on medication that at the time she wasnt in frame of mind......
just wanna make it clear............thanxxxx guys
quote:
ORIGINAL: phosadaud
quote:
ORIGINAL: Kat_D
quote:
ORIGINAL: percussionlover
this person is on the sex registry as a sex offender for "attempted sexual battery without violence".
You know, this is something the OP said that struck me as odd, and perhaps it's an implication that he is attempting to make light of the crime the guy in his church was guilty of.
"Attempted sexual battery without violence"...just wondering how that works? The definition of Sexual Battery is:
"The forced penetration of or contact with another person’s or the perpetrator’s sexual organs. See also rape."
Just wondering how you attempt to do this to someone without violence. To me, the "forced" part is what makes the crime violent.
Sexual battery includes more than just sexual assault. It can include molestation, sexual exploitation, etc. So, the doctor who gets his kicks touching a woman's private areas would not be using "violence" per se, but would be committing sexual battery - even if he didn't physically rape his patient. It would also include the victim not being aware of what was happening (they are somehow incapacitated).
It's really nothing more than legalese and certainly it's still a big deal and a serious crime.
< Message edited by percussionlover -- 4/19/2008 6:17:56 PM >
_____________________________
PERCUSSIONLOVER
SURFIN FOR JESUS
CONGA MAN
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RE: SEX OFFENDERS IN THE CHURCH.... - 4/19/2008 6:15:47 PM
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PrincessDonna
Posts: 10311
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Cow country, Upstate NY
Status: online
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quote:
when i read thru his paper work from the courts etc....it stated that they had consentual sex,but later she cried rape. also the paper work said that there was no signs of rape etc when they did the rape kit......in the rape kit they only found a drop of seamen.
It's very possible that the court papers are not entirely accurate as to what actually happened. If you weren't at the scene when the rape happened, I'd be very careful of saying it was NOT rape. While I know that some people have "cried rape" when it was not in fact rape at all, MANY, MANY more women do not report rape at all for fear of being shredded to pieces on the stand. It's not a pleasant prospect and one many women decide is not worth it.
If he was tried, convicted, and labeled by civil authorities as a sex offender, then I would treat him as such. Forgive, yes. Allow in appropriate ministry, probably after a long period of getting to know and knowledge of true repentance. Allow him alone with any woman or child, NO WAY!
< Message edited by PrincessDonna -- 4/19/2008 6:28:30 PM >
_____________________________
I will praise you, O Lord, among the nations;
I will sing of you among the peoples.
For great is your love, reaching to the heavens;
your faithfulness reaches to the skies.
~Psalm 57:9-10~
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RE: SEX OFFENDERS IN THE CHURCH.... - 4/19/2008 6:20:02 PM
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percussionlover
Posts: 91
Joined: 2/29/2008
Status: offline
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the court papers looked pretty accurate..plus it was the same in the public records......
quote:
ORIGINAL: PrincessDonna
quote:
when i read thru his paper work from the courts etc....it stated that they had consentual sex,but later she cried rape. also the paper work said that there was no signs of rape etc when they did the rape kit......in the rape kit they only found a drop of seamen.
It's very possible that the court papers are not entirely accurate as to what actually happened. If you weren't at the scene when the rape happened, I'd be very careful of saying it was NOT rape. While I know that some people have "cried rape" when it was not in fact rape at all, MANY, MANY more women do not report rape at all for fear of being shredded to pieces on the stand. It's not a pleasant prospect and one many woman decide is not worth it.
If he was tried, convicted, and labeled by civil authorities as a sex offender, then I would treat him as such. Forgive, yes. Allow in appropriate ministry, probably after a long period of getting to know. Allow him alone with any woman or child, NO WAY!
_____________________________
PERCUSSIONLOVER
SURFIN FOR JESUS
CONGA MAN
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RE: SEX OFFENDERS IN THE CHURCH.... - 4/19/2008 6:22:33 PM
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PrincessDonna
Posts: 10311
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Cow country, Upstate NY
Status: online
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My own statements in a "cry rape" case were twisted by both the investigator AND in the court room. It happens more than we like to think.
_____________________________
I will praise you, O Lord, among the nations;
I will sing of you among the peoples.
For great is your love, reaching to the heavens;
your faithfulness reaches to the skies.
~Psalm 57:9-10~
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RE: SEX OFFENDERS IN THE CHURCH.... - 4/19/2008 6:29:11 PM
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nitecrawlr
Posts: 5
Joined: 4/19/2008
Status: offline
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I think it's rediculous that if you sexually assault someone, even to the extent of rape, that you can simply go to church, get saved and everything is suddenly ok. Then that person goes to heaven (hypothetically speaking of course since neither God nor heaven exist) and be with all other good people. So, instead of having a place of pure goodness and sinlessness in heaven, it is filled with murderers, rapists, and child molesters. That does not sound like a place I would like to spend eternity in. It actually sounds more like hell. As if it were no different than living here on Earth.
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RE: SEX OFFENDERS IN THE CHURCH.... - 4/19/2008 6:39:56 PM
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PrincessDonna
Posts: 10311
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Cow country, Upstate NY
Status: online
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Except they will only be there if they have truly repented and those sins have been covered in Jesus' blood. Jesus' blood does not remove our consequences on this earth, but it does in Heaven.
I know I would not want a list of my sins tattooed to my new Heavenly body. We all fall short. Way short.
But that's not what this thread is about...it's about how we treat (or should) sex offenders in the church, not whether or not they belong in Heaven. None of us have a right to be there.
_____________________________
I will praise you, O Lord, among the nations;
I will sing of you among the peoples.
For great is your love, reaching to the heavens;
your faithfulness reaches to the skies.
~Psalm 57:9-10~
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RE: SEX OFFENDERS IN THE CHURCH.... - 4/19/2008 7:23:26 PM
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phosadaud
Posts: 9791
Joined: 9/19/2005
From: Washington State
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: percussionlover
first of all..........no its not me..
second...his charge is listed as: attempted sexual battery without violence...and when i read thru his paper work from the courts etc....it stated that they had consentual sex,but later she cried rape. also the paper work said that there was no signs of rape etc when they did the rape kit......in the rape kit they only found a drop of seamen.
so basically they were taking her word against his & in the paper work also stated that she was taking prozack & because she was taking a prescribed drug that the state said she wasnt in the right state of mind to have consentual sex.....she was also 8 years older according to the paper work......so because of the prescribed drug thing...the prosecuter said it was without violence cause it was consentual,but they felt since she was on medication that at the time she wasnt in frame of mind......
just wanna make it clear............thanxxxx guys
I'd also be very careful about assuming that nothing really happened. If he was convicted, there was a reason. Prozac does not make one "unable" to have consensual sex. That's just downright bizarre. Trust me, when I say I know. And rape is never consensual. If she was unable to say no (incapacitated, etc), that by definition is unconsensual sex. Sorry, but I can't help but believe there is a lot more to the case.
_____________________________
~Kristin~
42.7% of all statistics are made up on the spot.
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