RE: Why do so many people reject water baptism

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restored08 -> RE: Why do so many people reject water baptism (4/10/2008 4:26:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: doinkdom Thanks Ephesians4_32...hope that helps you out restored08 This might help, too: The purpose of a creed is to act as a yardstick of correct belief. The creeds of Christianity have been drawn up at times of conflict about doctrine: acceptance or rejection of a creed served to distinguish believers and deniers of a particular doctrine or set of doctrines. yes it did help, a LOT, thank you so much.

URForgiven -> RE: Why do so many people reject water baptism (4/10/2008 4:32:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JimboFletch quote: ORIGINAL: URForgiven quote: ORIGINAL: JimboFletch The vast majority of early Christians were Jewish. Those Christians were the sole source of information on becoming a Christian. And when the Gospel began to be shared with numbers of Gentiles, the question about conversion to Judaism was quickly settled by Church leaders (in the book of Acts). Personally, I don't think many Gentiles ever were confused over the need to become Jews first. Who do you suppose Paul was addressing in most of his writings? This is a non issue for me. I certainly would not want to see two brothers become less over it. Major on the majors, minor on the minors. Peace. To save a large post, read Acts 15. The leaders came together for the purpose of addressing this issue and sent letters to the Gentile believers about becoming Jews. The idea for them becoming Jews first came, not from the Gentile believers, but from the outside (Jewish converts that were legalists). I am not disagreeing with you. And I do not see you disagreeing with me.

restored08 -> RE: Why do so many people reject water baptism (4/10/2008 4:38:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JimboFletch quote: ORIGINAL: restored08 quote: ORIGINAL: JimboFletch restored08, in theological terms, repentance and remission are not identical. Remission is a pardon of a sin; the forgiveness of an offense. I'm not a theologist or anything but my bible dictionary gives basically the same meaning for both words, to stop, cancel, change or desist. As for pardon and forgive they're the same pardon--To excuse or [u]forgive for a fault. forgive- to[u] pardon, excuse or claim requital for a fault. I don't know how else to say this, repentance and remission are two different things. One YOU do, the other JESUS had to do because you AREN'T ABLE to satisfy God's demands. Repentance is a change of YOUR mind and YOUR course. Remission is a pardon of a sin; the forgiveness of an offense BY JESUS. You can have the REPENTANCE without REMISSION and still be LOST, even if you get dunked 100 times a day. o.k. thanks for putting it that way. that's makes perfect since.

greatdivide46 -> RE: Why do so many people reject water baptism (4/10/2008 5:51:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JimboFletch Therefore, one either enters the water saved before baptism or only enters the water lost before getting dunked. No, one either enters the water with the faith to be saved or only enters the water lost before getting dunked. quote: People who were baptized by John did not get saved by the water - and that includes Jesus who did not need salvation. He did it as a sign - just as we who are His redeemed do it as a sign and a testimony in honor of Him. Quite right. People who were baptized by John did not get saved by the water. The same is true of baptism today. Anyone who gets baptized today is not getting saved by the water. As you know we are saved by grace through faith, not by water. Only God can save a person. We are baptized today because God tells us in numerous places in His word and in numerous ways that it is when we are baptized that He saves us by grace through faith. But God does it, not us.

JimboFletch -> RE: Why do so many people reject water baptism (4/10/2008 5:56:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: greatdivide46 quote: ORIGINAL: JimboFletch Therefore, one either enters the water saved before baptism or only enters the water lost before getting dunked. No, on either enters the water with the faith to be saved or only enters the water lost before getting dunked. Nope, I entered the water completely redeemed and totally saved. Had that not been a done deal, I would have had no desire to be baptized, probably would have been somewhere else.

abu_khomar -> RE: Why do so many people reject water baptism (4/10/2008 6:01:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: greatdivide46 quote: ORIGINAL: JimboFletch Therefore, one either enters the water saved before baptism or only enters the water lost before getting dunked. No, one either enters the water with the faith to be saved or only enters the water lost before getting dunked. quote: People who were baptized by John did not get saved by the water - and that includes Jesus who did not need salvation. He did it as a sign - just as we who are His redeemed do it as a sign and a testimony in honor of Him. Quite right. People who were baptized by John did not get saved by the water. The same is true of baptism today. Anyone who gets baptized today is not getting saved by the water. As you know we are saved by grace through faith, not by water. Only God can save a person. We are baptized today because God tells us in numerous places in His word and in numerous ways that it is when we are baptized that He saves us by grace through faith. But God does it, not us. So, if u say we are saved by grace thru faith when he baptizes us, then what do u make of the accounts in acts, particularly acts 8 and acts 19, where the people were baptized before they received the Spirit of God, in Acts, it was quite a period of time before they received the Spirit.

greatdivide46 -> RE: Why do so many people reject water baptism (4/10/2008 10:53:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: abu_khomar So, if u say we are saved by grace thru faith when he baptizes us, then what do u make of the accounts in acts, particularly acts 8 and acts 19, where the people were baptized before they received the Spirit of God, in Acts, it was quite a period of time before they received the Spirit. I believe they were saved by grace through faith when they were baptized, not when they received certain gifts of the Holy Spirit.

abu_khomar -> RE: Why do so many people reject water baptism (4/10/2008 11:06:50 PM)
Thanks for your reply Great, but the text doesnt say they received gifts, it says they received the Gift of the HOly Ghost, not gifts of the holy ghost. They received the actual thing, the spirit spoken of by peter in acts 2 when he referenced to Joel.

Ephesians4_32 -> RE: Why do so many people reject water baptism (4/11/2008 2:13:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: restored08 Eph4_32, thank you so much. and do pray for me my real name is beverly. I'll be glad to pray for you and feel free to PM me anytime. Please don't feel too stressed about the way people express themselves; we're all learning. Sometimes I ask my husband if my post sounds harsh and if there's a better way to say what I want to say. I have been able to study more since my children grew up and left home, but I'm still a student who got a late start in life. I don't have all the answers, but I do look for them in the Bible.

Ephesians4_32 -> RE: Why do so many people reject water baptism (4/11/2008 2:14:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: greatdivide46 quote: ORIGINAL: abu_khomar So, if u say we are saved by grace thru faith when he baptizes us, then what do u make of the accounts in acts, particularly acts 8 and acts 19, where the people were baptized before they received the Spirit of God, in Acts, it was quite a period of time before they received the Spirit. I believe they were saved by grace through faith when they were baptized, not when they received certain gifts of the Holy Spirit. Perhaps Abu was thinking of Acts 10: 45And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. 46For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, 47Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? The gift of the Holy Ghost is the indwelling presence of the Spirit of God. God doesn't give this gift to unsaved people. Abu seems to be saying that first the Gentiles received the Holy Ghost and afterwards they were baptized. That is an excellent point when trying to explain that baptism isn't required for salvation. Baptism follows salvation.

draexo -> RE: Why do so many people reject water baptism (4/11/2008 7:04:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: greatdivide46 I think it's because they've been taught that all their lives and they're not willing to approach the Scriptures with an open mind to discover what it really says about the meaning and purpose of baptism. They rely on what they've been taught instead of searching it out for themselves. I don't blame them though. It is exremely difficult to give up a doctrine that you've been taught all your life and that you believe is true, even if someone points out to you inconsistencies in that doctrine. This is very true. Also, I would combine this with a lack of willingness to make a public profession of faith.

draexo -> RE: Why do so many people reject water baptism (4/11/2008 7:54:04 AM)
Paul was baptized.. Acts 9 17 Then Ananias went to the house and entered it. Placing his hands on Saul, he said, "Brother Saul, the Lord�Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you were coming here�has sent me so that you may see again and be filled with the Holy Spirit." 18 Immediately, something like scales fell from Saul's eyes, and he could see again. He got up and was baptized, 19 and after taking some food, he regained his strength As you can see it was the FIRST THING Paul did after his sight was restored. Look at Acts 8 12 But when they believed Philip as he proclaimed the good news of the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. 13 Simon himself believed and was baptized. And he followed Philip everywhere, astonished by the great signs and miracles he saw. Look at Acts 8 again, farther down in the chapter, Philip runs into the Ehtiopian eunuch and the eunuch is baptized. It looks clear to me that once you believe, you are baptized. Believed and baptized in Luke's account here in Acts. Then we have Jesus Himself in Matthew 28 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age." This is the Great Commission.

draexo -> RE: Why do so many people reject water baptism (4/11/2008 7:57:48 AM)
I think we can safely say if you refuse to be baptized you are publicly rejecting Christ.

greatdivide46 -> RE: Why do so many people reject water baptism (4/11/2008 8:39:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: abu_khomar Thanks for your reply Great, but the text doesnt say they received gifts, it says they received the Gift of the HOly Ghost, not gifts of the holy ghost. They received the actual thing, the spirit spoken of by peter in acts 2 when he referenced to Joel. Well, you're quite right. It doesn't say they received gifts. In fact, in the version I have, both chapter 8 and chapter 19 don't even use the work "gift." But when the Holy Spirit fell on these folks, other people knew. How did they know? Now when Simon saw that the Holy Spirit was given through the laying on of the apostles' hands, he offered them money" (Acts 8:18). What exactly did Simon see? "And when Paul had laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking in tongues and prophesying' (Acts 19:6). In both cases there was a visible manifestation of the gift of the Holy Spirit. That's why I maintain that they were saved by grace through faith when they were baptized and what they received in the verses I quoted was the gift of the Holy Spirit that we commonly refer to as the gift of tongues.

greatdivide46 -> RE: Why do so many people reject water baptism (4/11/2008 8:49:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32 Perhaps Abu was thinking of Acts 10: 45And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. 46For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, 47Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? The gift of the Holy Ghost is the indwelling presence of the Spirit of God. God doesn't give this gift to unsaved people. Abu seems to be saying that first the Gentiles received the Holy Ghost and afterwards they were baptized. That is an excellent point when trying to explain that baptism isn't required for salvation. Baptism follows salvation. You are right. The gift of the Holy Ghost is the indwelling presence of the Spirit of God. But tongues is also termed the gift of the Holy Spirit. Prophesying is the gift of the Holy Spirit. Any number of other gifts of the Holy Spirit are mentioned in Scripture. They are all referred to as the gift of the Holy Spirit. What the gentiles received in the verses you quoted was the gift of tongues, which is a gift of the Holy Spirit. In other words, they received the Holy Ghost just exactly as the apostles had on the Day of Pentecost (as it says in verse 47 that you quoted); they received the gift of tongues.

abu_khomar -> RE: Why do so many people reject water baptism (4/11/2008 2:54:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: greatdivide46 quote: ORIGINAL: abu_khomar Thanks for your reply Great, but the text doesnt say they received gifts, it says they received the Gift of the HOly Ghost, not gifts of the holy ghost. They received the actual thing, the spirit spoken of by peter in acts 2 when he referenced to Joel. Well, you're quite right. It doesn't say they received gifts. In fact, in the version I have, both chapter 8 and chapter 19 don't even use the work "gift." But when the Holy Spirit fell on these folks, other people knew. How did they know? Now when Simon saw that the Holy Spirit was given through the laying on of the apostles' hands, he offered them money" (Acts 8:18). What exactly did Simon see? "And when Paul had laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking in tongues and prophesying' (Acts 19:6). In both cases there was a visible manifestation of the gift of the Holy Spirit. That's why I maintain that they were saved by grace through faith when they were baptized and what they received in the verses I quoted was the gift of the Holy Spirit that we commonly refer to as the gift of tongues. Thanks Great, I do not agree however. The text says they received the Holy Ghost, not tongues, and it does not say they received the Holy Ghost before they were baptized, but after, and it wasnt immediately after they were baptized. From what I understand you are expressing as to what you believe, you are saying that you believe the Holy Ghost is given at baptism, but here in acts 8 and acts 19, it isnt given at, it is given after, that is the point I am trying to make. The text does not say they were saved when they were baptized, and I dont understand how this can be, since they ddint receive the Spirit of God when they were baptized. And the gift of the Holy Ghost is NOT commonly referred as the gift of tongues, and it is never referred to in that way in Acts, in fact, acts 8 does not mention tongues. It def Does show something outward that happened when they received the Holy GHost, but it does not explicitly say tongues occurred, although I strongly believe they did, either way, these two terms, tongues and holy ghost are not interchangeable.

abu_khomar -> RE: Why do so many people reject water baptism (4/11/2008 2:58:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32 quote: ORIGINAL: greatdivide46 quote: ORIGINAL: abu_khomar So, if u say we are saved by grace thru faith when he baptizes us, then what do u make of the accounts in acts, particularly acts 8 and acts 19, where the people were baptized before they received the Spirit of God, in Acts, it was quite a period of time before they received the Spirit. I believe they were saved by grace through faith when they were baptized, not when they received certain gifts of the Holy Spirit. Perhaps Abu was thinking of Acts 10: 45And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. 46For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, 47Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? The gift of the Holy Ghost is the indwelling presence of the Spirit of God. God doesn't give this gift to unsaved people. Abu seems to be saying that first the Gentiles received the Holy Ghost and afterwards they were baptized. That is an excellent point when trying to explain that baptism isn't required for salvation. Baptism follows salvation. Thank you Ephesian, I was not referring to acts 10, because i mentioned about receiving the holy ghost AFTER baptism, and acts 10 shows baptism after receiving the Holy Ghost. However, you do bring up an interesting point, because here they were baptized after they received the Holy Ghost, they didnt receive the Holy Ghost when they were baptized. There is not a scriptural account of people receiving the Holy Ghost when they were baptized. I strongly believe that someone can receive at baptism, and I have witnessed this very thing first hand, but it does not always happen that way, and isnt recorded in scripture that way.

GrahamCracker -> RE: Why do so many people reject water baptism (4/11/2008 3:21:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: draexo I think we can safely say if you refuse to be baptized you are publicly rejecting Christ. Why? You don't think a person who refuses baptism can profess Christ?

restored08 -> RE: Why do so many people reject water baptism (4/11/2008 4:23:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32 quote: ORIGINAL: restored08 Eph4_32, thank you so much. and do pray for me my real name is beverly. I'll be glad to pray for you and feel free to PM me anytime. Please don't feel too stressed about the way people express themselves; we're all learning. Sometimes I ask my husband if my post sounds harsh and if there's a better way to say what I want to say. I have been able to study more since my children grew up and left home, but I'm still a student who got a late start in life. I don't have all the answers, but I do look for them in the Bible. Well, I do know what the bible says about doing unto other as you would have them do unto you. So I know that I can't control how people treat me but I can control how I treat others. And with knowing that, no one can control how someone will takes or percieves a comment. And thank you so much for your encouraging words and your prayer, I NEED THEM ALL!

JimboFletch -> RE: Why do so many people reject water baptism (4/11/2008 4:25:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: restored08 Well, I do know what the bible says about doing unto other as you would have them do unto you. So I know that I can't control how people treat me but I can control how I treat others. And with knowing that, no one can control how someone will takes or percieves a comment. And thank you so much for your encouraging words and your prayer, I NEED THEM ALL! That is one of the best posts I have read in a long time. Thanks for the blessing! Have a Wonderful Weekend, JF

greatdivide46 -> RE: Why do so many people reject water baptism (4/11/2008 4:29:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: abu_khomar I do not agree however. The text says they received the Holy Ghost, not tongues, and it does not say they received the Holy Ghost before they were baptized, but after, and it wasnt immediately after they were baptized. Yes the text says they received the Holy Ghost. But the text does not say they didn't receive the gift of tongues. In fact in Acts 19:6 it says, "they began speaking in tongues." In order for that to happen they had to have received the gift of tongues, even though it doesn't specifically say so. quote: From what I understand you are expressing as to what you believe, you are saying that you believe the Holy Ghost is given at baptism, but here in acts 8 and acts 19, it isnt given at, it is given after, that is the point I am trying to make. I understand the point you are trying to make. I just happen to disagree. I think its entirely possible that they received the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit when they were baptized, then received the Holy Spirit via the gift of tongues later. That's why I think when it says they received the Holy Spirit, it is specifically talking about the gift of tongues. quote: The text does not say they were saved when they were baptized, and I dont understand how this can be, since they ddint receive the Spirit of God when they were baptized. The text does not say they didn't receive the Spirit of God when they were baptized. And it doesn't say they were saved when they were baptized because every Christian in New Testament times would have understand that one is saved when they are baptized. quote: And the gift of the Holy Ghost is NOT commonly referred as the gift of tongues, and it is never referred to in that way in Acts, in fact, acts 8 does not mention tongues. You are right. The gift of the Holy Ghost is NOT commonly referred to as the gift of tongues. That's not what I said at all. And while you are correct that Acts 8 does not mention tongues, what do you suppose Simon saw that convinced him that they had received a gift of the Holy Spirit?

GrahamCracker -> RE: Why do so many people reject water baptism (4/11/2008 4:39:08 PM)
I believe that GD is correct with regard to whether or not the Samaritans spoke with tongues. The terms "have the Spirit" and "receive the gift of the Spirit" are virtually synonymous terms that indicate an outward manifestation.

restored08 -> RE: Why do so many people reject water baptism (4/11/2008 4:40:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: greatdivide46 quote: ORIGINAL: abu_khomar I do not agree however. The text says they received the Holy Ghost, not tongues, and it does not say they received the Holy Ghost before they were baptized, but after, and it wasnt immediately after they were baptized. Yes the text says they received the Holy Ghost. But the text does not say they didn't receive the gift of tongues. In fact in Acts 19:6 it says, "they began speaking in tongues." In order for that to happen they had to have received the gift of tongues, even though it doesn't specifically say so. When you receive the Holy Ghost you automatically receive the gift of tongues. In scripture it states that we will be filled with the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in tongues. So the speaking of the tongues is our evidence of being Holy Ghost filled.

Ephesians4_32 -> RE: Why do so many people reject water baptism (4/11/2008 7:34:15 PM)
quote: When you receive the Holy Ghost you automatically receive the gift of tongues. In scripture it states that we will be filled with the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in tongues. So the speaking of the tongues is our evidence of being Holy Ghost filled. Is the gift of the Holy Ghost a spiritual blessing or is it something else? I'll try to explain why I don't believe that speaking in tongues is evidence of being filled with the Holy Ghost. The Apostle Paul said that he would prefer that some Christians prophesy instead of having the gift of tongues(1 Cor. 14:5) If tongues are evidence of being spirit-filled, why would Paul say that? And how can there possibly be any Christians that don't have the fulness of the Spirit? I believe that all Christians are and need to be filled with the Spirit. I don't believe that speaking in tongues is a sign of salvation. If some Christians are blessed with the Holy Spirit, why did God adopt sons and daughters whom he wants to restrict from the blessings that He gives His other sons and daughters? If all sons and daughters go to heaven, could it be that there is a caste system in heaven? Is one side of heaven for full gospel Christians and the other side for part gospel Christians? Or are all the part gospel Christians thrown out with the goats? Ephesians 1 3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: 2 Timothy 3 16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works. I do not believe that God has withheld any spiritual blessings from His children. Not all Christians need the gift of tongues. A missionary would find it helpful to know other languages, but the majority of Christians are ministering to those who speak their own language. The Holy Spirit is our guide who convicts us of sin and brings to our remembrance the truths we have been taught. 1 Corinthians 14 5I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying. If all the believers in the congregation speak English, there is no need for tongues or an interpreter. On the other hand, when I spoke to a Spanish-speaking church, we had someone interpret my English into Spanish. I can't tell you how wonderful it was to see faces light up when they heard my message in their own language! Respectfully, Ephesians P. S. I've tried to not step on any toes. I hope you can forgive me if you feel that I have stepped on toes.

Ephesians4_32 -> RE: Why do so many people reject water baptism (4/11/2008 8:07:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: greatdivide46 I think it's because they've been taught that all their lives and they're not willing to approach the Scriptures with an open mind to discover what it really says about the meaning and purpose of baptism. They rely on what they've been taught instead of searching it out for themselves. I don't blame them though. It is exremely difficult to give up a doctrine that you've been taught all your life and that you believe is true, even if someone points out to you inconsistencies in that doctrine. Again I have to say that I wasn't taught anything about baptism as a child. I have been willing to search the scriptures with a mind open to the purposes of Him Who saved me. Those who think they have pointed out inconsistencies in my beliefs about baptism have their own minds made up about what baptism means to them. I am saved by the blood of Jesus Christ not the waters of baptism. Is there a part of Hades where the righteous spirits were waiting before being taken to heaven? Is it called Paradise? Luke 23 39And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us. 40But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? 41And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. 42And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. 43And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise. Rev. 2 7He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God. When Paul wrote 2 Cor 12:2-4, had paradise been taken out of Hades and placed in the third heaven which we refer to as simply heaven? I've got to run.

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