Old God New Earth? I don't think so. (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Theology] >> Science & Origins



Message

theo_book -> Old God New Earth? I don't think so. (4/8/2008 8:44:00 AM)

I am not a scientist, nor yet a theologian of any pedigree whatsoever. But I do have a thought about God and the age of earth.

Can you picture God sitting around an empty universe for aeons of time contemplating creation of what is, but unable to make up his mind about which things to incorporate into his new concept, earth? I can't either.

I think God is first and foremost, active. In fact, Genesis begins by telling us God is six times as active as he is restful. So I find a certain reluctance to suppose God waited a looong time to begin the creative process which resulted in me and my generation. (Touch of ego there?)

No, I like to think of God as considering his "aloneness" as lacking purpose, and almost instantaneously, saying "Let there be light." Earth and all that is soon followed in the process as revealed in the Genesis account.

That would make the earth just an infinitessimal bit younger than God himself. It matters not how old the earth is, nor yet how old God is, so long as he considers us still his children, and still sends his rain and blessings and gives us hope.

As for carbon dating, it works for science. As for chronologically dating in accord with geneological records revealed in scripture, That works for some Christians. Personally, I think it more important to consider "today, while it is called today," and so much the more as I see the day approach.

Is it reasonable to accept evolution as the cause of me? Not for me. Is it reasonable to accept the self-serving revelation of God who lays his love on me? Yup! Got MY attention right away.

Do I care what evolutionists think? Most certainly, for therein is the soul of an image of God at stake. Would I argue with evolutionists? Most certainly. And I would win.

Would that make me smart? Not at all. It would make me reflect that "There, but for God's grace and the lamb's blood sacrifice, go I."

I thank God daily for his love and care, and for the opportunities he gives me to declare his being to those who deny such with their own being.



Jhud -> RE: Old God New Earth? I don't think so. (4/8/2008 10:22:45 AM)

Interesting thoughts, but as time is a product of the universe, it is improper to suggest that God was, "sitting around an empty universe for aeons of time "; God just was, He exists outside of time, and so His existence before (causally speaking) the beginning of the universe can't be described in terms of the passage of time. The moment God created the universe would be no sooner or later than any other in God's experience.



theo_book -> RE: Old God New Earth? I don't think so. (4/8/2008 10:26:39 AM)

So you assume God created time? Reference?

God created sun, moon, and stars for the purpose of MEASURING what was already there; TIME. There is no way God created time. There is also no reference in scripture that says he did.



DanJames -> RE: Old God New Earth? I don't think so. (4/8/2008 10:28:16 AM)

I agree with, but do not understand, Jhud's statement.



theo_book -> RE: Old God New Earth? I don't think so. (4/8/2008 10:31:21 AM)

While it may be in some cases, I agree with the circumstance of things that I do not understand, it never is the case that I agree with a process I do not understand.

I agree for example, that time is as old as God; both always are. I do not agree that one created the other, whatever direction the argument poses.



Jhud -> RE: Old God New Earth? I don't think so. (4/8/2008 10:44:16 AM)

quote:

So you assume God created time? Reference?

God created sun, moon, and stars for the purpose of MEASURING what was already there; TIME. There is no way God created time. There is also no reference in scripture that says he did.


God is eternal (infinite) and unchanging. Time would not make any sense in terms of describing God, because He has no beginning and end, he just is. That’s why when Moses asked His name He simply said, “I am”. Time is a measure of change, a description of a sequence of events; it doesn’t apply to an unchanging infinite being. Time began when the universe began, so as much as you believe God created the universe, you also believe He created time.

quote:

I agree for example, that time is as old as God; both always are. I do not agree that one created the other, whatever direction the argument poses.


Something that is infinite and unchanging is not 'old', it just is.



ta_mosquito -> RE: Old God New Earth? I don't think so. (4/8/2008 11:03:54 AM)

If God created the universe 10 billion years ago, He was STILL "sitting around in a blank universe" for eons. Eternity past is eternity past.



WesP -> RE: Old God New Earth? I don't think so. (4/8/2008 11:12:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ta_mosquito

If God created the universe 10 billion years ago, He was STILL "sitting around in a blank universe" for eons. Eternity past is eternity past.


LOL!!! Actually, heaven was already present. Since that is true, we know God wasn't just sitting around in nothingness. [;)]



theo_book -> RE: Old God New Earth? I don't think so. (4/8/2008 11:19:00 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jhud

quote:

So you assume God created time? Reference?

God created sun, moon, and stars for the purpose of MEASURING what was already there; TIME. There is no way God created time. There is also no reference in scripture that says he did.


God is eternal (infinite) and unchanging. Time would not make any sense in terms of describing God, because He has no beginning and end, he just is. That’s why when Moses asked His name He simply said, “I am”. Time is a measure of change, a description of a sequence of events; it doesn’t apply to an unchanging infinite being. Time began when the universe began, so as much as you believe God created the universe, you also believe He created time.

quote:

I agree for example, that time is as old as God; both always are. I do not agree that one created the other, whatever direction the argument poses.


Something that is infinite and unchanging is not 'old', it just is.


First my friend, allow me to establish a frame of reference for this concept understood as "universe." It seems to reference a place of which God was outside at one point, it being not in existence pending its creation. With this I do not agree.

WHEREVER God was prior to the creation of what is, call it what you will, it still "WAS" for God WAS "there." To assert that God was "noplace" asserts God was not. For there would be of necessity, no "place" for him to "Be."

If you will examine the creation account recorded in Genesis, (I know you have done so already, but bear with me for a moment) You will see that there is referenced a "beginning" which is a reference to an activity, not to time itself. "In the beginning" refers to those activities which culminated in something becoming something else. It is a reference to a cause, a resulting change, and a conclusive effect.

Prov 8:22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. 23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

The word that is translated "way" is "deh-rek" meaning a road, journey, direction, manner, or similar meanings. Prior to creating, God "possessed." So you see, there was something God "did" before creation. This implies "time" as being effective prior to its use in the creative process. He possessed Wisdom before the creation process began.

"Before," and "began" are both a reference to time and its relation to event, in this case, "event" referencing creation, a process involving six "days," whatever that may mean.

As we have no reason to understand how long God possessed wisdom prior to the creation process, I think it respectful to say he always possessed wisdom. "Always" is a reference to time, again, prior to the creation.

To insist that God created "time" or somehow existed "outside of time," makes the account recorded in Proverbs chapter eight, suspect at least.

Time is necessary for ANYTHING to "be." Even God cannot "be" separate and apart from a time for "being."

And again, my freind, where is your scriptural reference for God creating time?



upNORTder -> RE: Old God New Earth? I don't think so. (4/8/2008 11:20:53 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: theo_book

So you assume God created time? Reference?

God created sun, moon, and stars for the purpose of MEASURING what was already there; TIME. There is no way God created time. There is also no reference in scripture that says he did.



Time is relative to those observing it.



cow451 -> RE: Old God New Earth? I don't think so. (4/8/2008 12:12:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: upNORTder

quote:

ORIGINAL: theo_book

So you assume God created time? Reference?

God created sun, moon, and stars for the purpose of MEASURING what was already there; TIME. There is no way God created time. There is also no reference in scripture that says he did.



Time is relative to those observing it.

Bear that in mind as you read Genesis 1 and 2.



drmark -> RE: Old God New Earth? I don't think so. (4/8/2008 1:28:06 PM)

quote:

So you assume God created time? Reference?
Genesis 1:1 - God created time (in the beginning), space (the heavens), and matter (the earth). His first created physical reality was light (Genesis 1:3) which is energy (converted matter) moving in all directions (space) through time. Light requires time for its very definition. Thus, God created time when He created light.



Jhud -> RE: Old God New Earth? I don't think so. (4/8/2008 2:46:28 PM)

quote:

First my friend, allow me to establish a frame of reference for this concept understood as "universe." It seems to reference a place of which God was outside at one point, it being not in existence pending its creation. With this I do not agree.


How do you define the ‘universe’? I define it as the set of all material things that exist.

quote:

WHEREVER God was prior to the creation of what is, call it what you will, it still "WAS" for God WAS "there." To assert that God was "noplace" asserts God was not. For there would be of necessity, no "place" for him to "Be."


Well, God exists spiritually, not materially- He isn’t a product of atoms and molecules; if God is indeed infinite and omnipresent, then it doesn’t make sense to say He is in a particular place. In also would not follow that He is ‘no place’ but rather, there is no place where God isn’t.

quote:

If you will examine the creation account recorded in Genesis, (I know you have done so already, but bear with me for a moment) You will see that there is referenced a "beginning" which is a reference to an activity, not to time itself. "In the beginning" refers to those activities which culminated in something becoming something else. It is a reference to a cause, a resulting change, and a conclusive effect.


Well, no, that ‘beginning’ refers to the inception of the material universe and time; obviously not to God. Indeed, Scripture affirms that God existed casually prior to time:

Jude 1:25
to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever.

So certainly God is a cause, but He is a timeless cause.

quote:

Prov 8:22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. 23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

The word that is translated "way" is "deh-rek" meaning a road, journey, direction, manner, or similar meanings. Prior to creating, God "possessed." So you see, there was something God "did" before creation. This implies "time" as being effective prior to its use in the creative process. He possessed Wisdom before the creation process began.


Actually, I think this simply means that we were ever in God’s mind, as was the knowledge of the universe. It doesn’t really have to do with ‘time’ as we understand it.

quote:

"Before," and "began" are both a reference to time and its relation to event, in this case, "event" referencing creation, a process involving six "days," whatever that may mean.


Well, the problem is that time, as we understand it, is the passage of events – things change as those events transpire, so we talk about our movement around the sun as a ‘year’ and the earth’s revolution as a ‘day’ – but God isn’t subject to such events, He isn’t defined by the passage of time. When we say God existed ‘before’ the beginning of the universe, that is a casual description, not a temporal one.

quote:

As we have no reason to understand how long God possessed wisdom prior to the creation process, I think it respectful to say he always possessed wisdom. "Always" is a reference to time, again, prior to the creation.


Actually, ‘always’ is not necessarily a reference to time – after all, how much time would ‘always’ be?

quote:

To insist that God created "time" or somehow existed "outside of time," makes the account recorded in Proverbs chapter eight, suspect at least.


Not at all, though I will make this caveat; our view of God’s existence in terms of time has to do with our view of time itself. If time is a continuum – that is, if any point in time is equally real, and that the order of time is merely a continuum, then God can exist outside of time.

If time is dynamic, that is if the past no longer exits and the future is only potential, then God would be temporal in relation to the universe.

quote:

Time is necessary for ANYTHING to "be." Even God cannot "be" separate and apart from a time for "being."


Well, no, indeed, is something exist that is changeless, that is that always is and always will be, exists essentially outside of time, that is the passage of events in a sequence.

quote:

And again, my freind, where is your scriptural reference for God creating time?


Well, if time is an aspect of the material universe, as say for example gravity is, or dimensions are, then every Scriptural reference that indicates God created the material universe is also a reference to the creation of time.

But believing that God exist in time is in a sense to subject God to something that is greater than He is; and that rather diminishes God from the way Scripture describes Him I would think.



theo_book -> RE: Old God New Earth? I don't think so. (4/8/2008 2:53:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark

quote:

So you assume God created time? Reference?
Genesis 1:1 - God created time (in the beginning), space (the heavens), and matter (the earth). His first created physical reality was light (Genesis 1:3) which is energy (converted matter) moving in all directions (space) through time. Light requires time for its very definition. Thus, God created time when He created light.


Well set's examine the record, my friend, just for clarity. I shall ask scriptures some questions and post the responses found therein.

Question: Did God "do" anything whatsoever prior to his creation process as recorded in Gen one?

Response: Yes. The Lord "possessed."
Prov 8:22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, BEFORE his works OF OLD ("of old" is a reference to "time"). If his works of old included creation of heaven and earth, then his possession of Wisdom was "Before (a reference to time) his works of old (creating the heaven and earth)

Wisdom testifies to "being" prior to the earth being created, which took place in the first instance recorded in Gen 1.
Prov 8:23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

So Scripture testifies God possessed (a verb of action) prior to the creation (another verb of action).

It is my contention that a verb of action REQUIRES "time" - i.e., he possessed, he created... All of which implies the presence of time. And so far, all prior to the separation of light from darkness, and prior to the creation of sun, moon, stars. Light had not yet been separated from darkness.

Furthermore, Wisdom was not only "possessed" she was "brought forth," another action verb requiring time.
Prov 8:24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. 25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:

Are you telling me Wisdom was brought forth prior to the earth being formed?
Answer: Prov 8:26 While as yet he had not made the earth...
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.


Which came first, creation of Earth or bringing forth wisdom?

Which was done in light? One has testified "Light is time"

quote:

God created time (in the beginning), space (the heavens), and matter (the earth). His first created physical reality was light (Genesis 1:3) which is energy (converted matter) moving in all directions (space) through time. Light requires time for its very definition. Thus, God created time when He created light.


One has somewhere testified: "Light is matter, converted to energy, moving in all directions, requiring time for its very definition. What then of darkness? Is darkness anti-matter? Is it the same as light? No, my friend, light existed in time, mixed with darkness, before God ever began his creative effort with Heaven and Earth."

Are you telling me Wisdom was brought forth prior to creation of heavens?
Prov 8:27 "When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:"

What about prior to all those other things referenced in Gen 1?
Prov 8:28 "When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:
29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:
30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;
31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men."

So after God brought forth Wisdom, and created heaven and earth, What form was the earth?
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

WAIT! WAIT! WAIT A MINUTE! I thought someone somewhere said "time began when light was created." Gen 1:1 said "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth;" Gen 1:3 said "And God said, let there be light," so if heaven and earth were created before light, and if light is time, then heaven and earth were created outside of time. And only AFTER the creation of heaven and earth did a "beginning" come into being.

Nope! Not what scripture says.

So what did God do then?
3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

God divided the light from the darkness, and saw that it was good. Genesis does not say God created light, he said he separated it from darkness, calling it forth into a form separate from that of being mixed with darkness.

And it does not say God created time. For time existed prior to his separating light from darkness, otherwise, God could not have "possessed" wisdom. There would have been no time for that circumstance to occur.

God did not create time, it existed for him to "Be."



drmark -> RE: Old God New Earth? I don't think so. (4/8/2008 3:03:42 PM)

quote:

Well set's examine the record, my friend, just for clarity.
quote:

God did not create time, it existed for him to "Be."
Actually, theo_book, you may want to get hold of a good commentary on Genesis to understand some of the basic grammatical constructions used in Genesis 1:1 - 2:4. Jhud is quite correct in affirming that God created the material universe including time. Anyone who thinks time must have existed for God "to Be" does not understand the concept of transcendence. God states "I AM THAT I AM", not I am because time existed for me to be!



Jhud -> RE: Old God New Earth? I don't think so. (4/8/2008 3:22:04 PM)

quote:

Well set's examine the record, my friend, just for clarity. I shall ask scriptures some questions and post the responses found therein.

Question: Did God "do" anything whatsoever prior to his creation process as recorded in Gen one?

Response: Yes. The Lord "possessed."
Prov 8:22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, BEFORE his works OF OLD ("of old" is a reference to "time"). If his works of old included creation of heaven and earth, then his possession of Wisdom was "Before (a reference to time) his works of old (creating the heaven and earth)


Possessing something is tenseless. I posses the knowledge to speak English; if time were to freeze at this moment, I would still posses that knowledge. The same would be for wisdom; God of course possesses wisdom timelessly.

quote:

Wisdom testifies to "being" prior to the earth being created, which took place in the first instance recorded in Gen 1.
Prov 8:23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

So Scripture testifies God possessed (a verb of action) prior to the creation (another verb of action).

It is my contention that a verb of action REQUIRES "time" - i.e., he possessed, he created... All of which implies the presence of time. And so far, all prior to the separation of light from darkness, and prior to the creation of sun, moon, stars. Light had not yet been separated from darkness.


God always had wisdom; He didn’t ‘get’ wisdom at a point in time, it is a timeless quality of God, unless you think at some point He lacked wisdom.

The creation is a product of this wisdom and God’s will; He was casually prior without being temporally prior. To say God caused the universe to exist at a point in time, we would have to have a reference by which to determine where that point existed; how could such a point exist when there was nothing in existence but an eternal God?

And as far as the reference to Proverbs 8, I think it is important to remember the entire passage is a metaphorical description about the activity of wisdom, which is of course an aspect of God, which also existed casually prior to the existence of the universe.



WesP -> RE: Old God New Earth? I don't think so. (4/8/2008 3:23:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark

quote:

Well set's examine the record, my friend, just for clarity.
quote:

God did not create time, it existed for him to "Be."
Actually, theo_book, you may want to get hold of a good commentary on Genesis to understand some of the basic grammatical constructions used in Genesis 1:1 - 2:4. Jhud is quite correct in affirming that God created the material universe including time. Anyone who thinks time must have existed for God "to Be" does not understand the concept of transcendence. God states "I AM THAT I AM", not I am because time existed for me to be!


Yep. Can't really say the bible is true if you argue against what is says. [&:]



theo_book -> RE: Old God New Earth? I don't think so. (4/8/2008 3:35:16 PM)

So let's see what we have "voted" that the bible teaches.

In the beginning God created the heavens and earth, then created time.

Hmmmm!!!

Nope! Don't think so.



Jhud -> RE: Old God New Earth? I don't think so. (4/8/2008 3:56:01 PM)

quote:

So let's see what we have "voted" that the bible teaches.

In the beginning God created the heavens and earth, then created time.

Hmmmm!!!

Nope! Don't think so.


Who said anything about voting?

And incidentally, time and the universe would have come into existence simultaneously.



WesP -> RE: Old God New Earth? I don't think so. (4/8/2008 4:04:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: theo_book

So let's see what we have "voted" that the bible teaches.

In the beginning God created the heavens and earth, then created time.

Hmmmm!!!

Nope! Don't think so.


To relegate God to time is to say that there was a point at which He did not exist. That is counter to what God tells us. He is eternal. Although existence without time may tax our abilities to completely understand, we do not need to constrain God so that we can grasp a concept to some extent. There will always be things about God that are beyond our comprehension.



drmark -> RE: Old God New Earth? I don't think so. (4/8/2008 4:18:14 PM)

Once more, theo_book, Genesis 1:1 and 3 states that God created time (in the beginning), space (the heavens), and matter (the earth). This occurred instantaneously and simultaneously when light (converted matter moving in all spatial directions through time) came into existence at His command. I'm sorry if you're not getting this.



theo_book -> RE: Old God New Earth? I don't think so. (4/8/2008 8:02:41 PM)

Once again my friend, you are contradicting the scripture account of creation.

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

This cannot be the beginning of time, but rather the beginning of heaven and earth. In the beginning, God created them.

And light was not first, but at least third, so light is not, cannot be, time.

And Wisdom was with God prior to Gen 1:1. involved in the creative process, prompting the "us" expressions of Gen 1:26

JESUS dealt with men who purported to teach God's word; only he focused upon one aspect of men's teaching; the source. It must always go back to "WHAT SAITH THE SCRIPTURE?"

What follows serves to show what would have happened in Jesus' own day, if the current method of bible study had been in practice, and he had NOT referenced the scriptures, but resorted to the commentaries. He would have relied on "SCHOLARS" instead of inspired writers. Scholarship requires that one be able to research and document "X" number of "Sources" to "prove" a point.

NOT-Mat 21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the COMMENTARIES, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is
become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is
marvellous in our eyes?

NOT-Mat 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the COMMENTARIES, nor the power of God.

NOT-Mat 26:56 But all this was done, that the COMMENTARIES of the prophets might be fulfilled. Then all the disciples forsook him, and fled.

NOT-Mar 12:10 And have ye not read this COMMENTARY; The stone
which the builders rejected is become the head of the corner:

NOT-Mar 12:24 And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the COMMENTARIES, neither the power of God?

NOT-Mar 15:28 And the COMMENTARY was fulfilled, which saith, And he was numbered with the transgressors.

NOT-Luke 4:21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this
COMMENTARY fulfilled in your ears.

NOT-Luke 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he
expounded unto them in all the COMMENTARIES the things concerning himself.

NOT-Luke 24:32 And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the COMMENTARIES,

NOT-Luke 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the COMMENTARIES,

NOT-John 2:22 When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the COMMENTARY, and the word (logos) which Jesus had said.

NOT-John 5:39 Search the COMMENTARIES; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

NOT-John 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the COMMENTARY hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

NOT-John 7:42 Hath not the COMMENTARY said, That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was?

NOT-John 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the COMMENTARY cannot be broken;

NOT-John 13:18 I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen:
but that the COMMENTARY may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread
with me hath lifted up his heel against me.

NOT-John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the COMMENTARY might be fulfilled.

NOT-John 19:24 They said therefore among themselves, Let us not rend it, but cast lots for it, whose it shall be: that the COMMENTARY might be fulfilled, which saith, They parted my raiment among them, and for my vesture they did cast lots. These things therefore the soldiers did.

NOT-John 19:28 After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the COMMENTARY might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.

NOT-John 19:36 For these things were done, that the COMMENTARY should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.

NOT-John 19:37 And again another COMMENTARY saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.

NOT-John 20:9 For as yet they knew not the COMMENTARY, that he must rise again from the dead.

NOT-Act 1:16 Men and brethren, this COMMENTARY must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.

NOT-Act 8:32 The place of the COMMENTARY which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:

NOT-Act 8:35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same COMMENTARY, and preached unto him Jesus.

NOT-Act 17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the COMMENTARIES,

NOT-Act 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the COMMENTARIES daily, whether those things were so.

NOT-Act 18:24 And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the COMMENTARIES, came to Ephesus.

NOT-Act 18:28 For he mightily convinced the Jews, and that publickly, shewing by the COMMENTARIES that Jesus was Christ.

NOT-Rom 1:2 Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the
holy COMMENTARIES,

NOT-Rom 4:3 For what saith the COMMENTARY? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

NOT-Rom 9:17 For the COMMENTARY saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

NOT-Rom 10:11 For the COMMENTARY saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

NOT-Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the COMMENTARY saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,

NOT-Rom 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the COMMENTARIES might have hope.

NOT-Rom 16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the COMMENTARIES of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

NOT-II Cor 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the COMMENTARIES;

NOT-II Cor 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the COMMENTARIES:

NOT-Gal 3:8 And the COMMENTARY, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

NOT-Gal 3:22 But the COMMENTARY hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

NOT-Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the COMMENTARY? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

NOT- II Tim 5:18 For the COMMENTARY saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.

NOT-II Tim 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy COMMENTARIES, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation
through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

NOT-II Tim 3:16 All COMMENTARY is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

NOT-Jam 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the COMMENTARY, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:

NOT-Jam 2:23 And the COMMENTARY was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

NOT-Jam 4:5 Do ye think that the COMMENTARY saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?

NOT- II Pet 2:6 Wherefore also it is contained in the COMMENTARY,
Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and
he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

NOT- II Pet 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the COMMENTARY is of any private interpretation.

NOT- II Pet 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other COMMENTARIES, unto their own destruction.

And so it goes as Jesus and the apostles would resort to commentaries today, if they did as our present religious society does.



EverLearning -> RE: Old God New Earth? I don't think so. (4/8/2008 9:39:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark

quote:

So you assume God created time? Reference?
Genesis 1:1 - God created time (in the beginning), space (the heavens), and matter (the earth). His first created physical reality was light (Genesis 1:3) which is energy (converted matter) moving in all directions (space) through time. Light requires time for its very definition. Thus, God created time when He created light.


So then by your logic the earth could have been sitting there cooling and forming for an undetermined period prior to light being created? How is it that the first "day" was only a day long as you so strongly claim elsewhere when light was not the first thing created and you yourself just stated that time was created when light was?



theo_book -> RE: Old God New Earth? I don't think so. (4/8/2008 10:31:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: EverLearning

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark

quote:

So you assume God created time? Reference?
Genesis 1:1 - God created time (in the beginning), space (the heavens), and matter (the earth). His first created physical reality was light (Genesis 1:3) which is energy (converted matter) moving in all directions (space) through time. Light requires time for its very definition. Thus, God created time when He created light.


So then by your logic the earth could have been sitting there cooling and forming for an undetermined period prior to light being created? How is it that the first "day" was only a day long as you so strongly claim elsewhere when light was not the first thing created and you yourself just stated that time was created when light was?


Actually, what you are attributing to me is a quote from a previous response. What I actually said was -
quote:

This cannot be the beginning of time, but rather the beginning of heaven and earth. In the beginning, God created them. And light was not first, but at least third, so light is not, cannot be, time.


And at no point have I claimed that the first day was "only a day long." That has no meaning without defining "a day." You are only saying "a day is a day long."

Since there were no sun, moon, stars, or other celestial means of measuring time till the third day, it is highly conjectural to assume anything at all about the length of the first three "days." And there is not really a need for the next four days to be limited to a twenty-four hour day, other than popular demand.

As a matter of fact, the days of creation are referred to as "the day" of creation.

Genesis 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in "THE DAY" that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

And the progenitors of Israel were said to have been upon the earth a "day."
Exodus 10:6 And they shall fill thy houses, and the houses of all thy servants, and the houses of all the Egyptians; which neither thy fathers, nor thy fathers' fathers have seen, since the day that they were upon the earth unto this day. And he turned himself, and went out from Pharaoh.

So not every reference to a day is twenty-four hours. Some of them are more like an epoch or an era.

There is no necessity to insist a twenty-four day for creation anyway, because it is not provable. Way too long a time passed between Adam and the flood, to try to claim credence for a chronology of life.



Jhud -> RE: Old God New Earth? I don't think so. (4/8/2008 11:03:49 PM)

quote:

JESUS dealt with men who purported to teach God's word; only he focused upon one aspect of men's teaching; the source. It must always go back to "WHAT SAITH THE SCRIPTURE?"


And where specifically does Scripture say time existed before the universe did?



Page: [1] 2 3 4 5   next >   >>



Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.5 ANSI