|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
RE: Old God New Earth? I don't think so. - 4/8/2008 11:17:44 PM
|
|
|
drmark
Posts: 3126
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: online
|
quote:
So then by your logic the earth could have been sitting there cooling and forming for an undetermined period prior to light being created? I will admit, EverLearning, that verse 2 is the most puzzling one in Genesis 1 for me. It seems to me that the most reasonable explanation is that the Hebrew word erets is used to designate matter or substance, not the planet earth itself. Indeed, planetary earth could not have already been formed before the creation of light since God's account specifically states that erets was formless, empty, and dark - that's not describing any planet I'm familiar with. So, I think that erets in this verse refers to some sort of proto-substance that God was nuturing to create reality by placing it in time and space. I'm certainly open for other suggestions - YEC oriented, of course! 
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Old God New Earth? I don't think so. - 4/9/2008 8:14:50 AM
|
|
|
theo_book
Posts: 100
Joined: 4/8/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
JESUS dealt with men who purported to teach God's word; only he focused upon one aspect of men's teaching; the source. It must always go back to "WHAT SAITH THE SCRIPTURE?"
And where specifically does Scripture say time existed before the universe did?
Where specifically does scripture say God is not a spider?
That is not the way scripture works. You do not base faith on what is not said. It is based on a deep abiding trust in what is said, by evidence of things not seen.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Old God New Earth? I don't think so. - 4/9/2008 8:33:18 AM
|
|
|
theo_book
Posts: 100
Joined: 4/8/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
So then by your logic the earth could have been sitting there cooling and forming for an undetermined period prior to light being created? I will admit, EverLearning, that verse 2 is the most puzzling one in Genesis 1 for me. It seems to me that the most reasonable explanation is that the Hebrew word erets is used to designate matter or substance, not the planet earth itself. Indeed, planetary earth could not have already been formed before the creation of light since God's account specifically states that erets was formless, empty, and dark - that's not describing any planet I'm familiar with. So, I think that erets in this verse refers to some sort of proto-substance that God was nuturing to create reality by placing it in time and space. I'm certainly open for other suggestions - YEC oriented, of course!
And how exactly would you describe a planet that was void and formless? One that has not yet been shaped or formed?
And Gen 1:10 tells us " 10 And God called the dry land (erets) Earth," so I do not think erets, in verse 2 pertains to "matter" as such, but to earth as yet unformed, and void. Of course it does not describe any planet with which you are familiar. Why does that make you doubt it is earth in a preformed state? Or do you think it was created with cars and trucks on hiway 99 going north at a high rate of speed?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Old God New Earth? I don't think so. - 4/9/2008 9:09:35 AM
|
|
|
theo_book
Posts: 100
Joined: 4/8/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
Well, no, that ‘beginning’ refers to the inception of the material universe and time; obviously not to God. Indeed, Scripture affirms that God existed casually prior to time:
Jude 1:25 - to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever.
"Time" in the Greek is "chronos" [Acts 1:7] not aionos. Aionos is "age. So Jude is saying "To the only God our saviour through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority before all the age, and now, and unto all the ages."
"All time" is not a consideration in the referent passage.
quote:
"Before," and "began" are both a reference to time and its relation to event, in this case, "event" referencing creation, a process involving six "days," whatever that may mean.
Well, the problem is that time, as we understand it, is the passage of events – things change as those events transpire, so we talk about our movement around the sun as a ‘year’ and the earth’s revolution as a ‘day’ – but God isn’t subject to such events, He isn’t defined by the passage of time. When we say God existed ‘before’ the beginning of the universe, that is a casual description, not a temporal one.
quote:
To insist that God created "time" or somehow existed "outside of time," makes the account recorded in Proverbs chapter eight, suspect at least.
Not at all, though I will make this caveat; our view of God’s existence in terms of time has to do with our view of time itself. If time is a continuum – that is, if any point in time is equally real, and that the order of time is merely a continuum, then God can exist outside of time.
If time is dynamic, that is if the past no longer exits and the future is only potential, then God would be temporal in relation to the universe.
quote:
And again, my friend, where is your scriptural reference for God creating time?
Well, if time is an aspect of the material universe, as say for example gravity is, or dimensions are, then every Scriptural reference that indicates God created the material universe is also a reference to the creation of time.
But believing that God exist in time is in a sense to subject God to something that is greater than He is; and that rather diminishes God from the way Scripture describes Him I would think.
Several things are wrong with this explanation. First, You say that God is not subject to time. Your argument resting upon a flawed premise; that to submit to something less than self, makes one subject to that to which one submits.
If I build a submarine, and climb inside it, I become subject to the environment of the submarine, with all its faults and advantages. That does not make me somehow less that that which I invented.
God subjected himself to "time" when he recorded that it took six days for the creative process. Could he have simply thought everything into existence? I think he could have. But he chose to submit himself to time, and recorded the creation accordingly.
Again, When God ordered man to "keep holy the Sabbath" he HAD TO HAVE been cognizant of a period of time of "seven days," for it to have any meaning whatsoever. And he was certainly submissive to his own creation, the sabbath, for he invoked penalties for breaking the sabbath, which he did not invoke the other six days. And why did he not invoke penalties the other six days? Because he was bound by his own covenant, that which was the sabbath covenant. He was bound by his word in his dealings in time.
Every "day" that was an appointed time for a sacrifice or memorial, and was part of his covenant with Israel, or with man in general (the flood promise) is an appointment that binds God to time, by his word which is unbreakable.
You see, there are some things God cannot do. He cannot lie, cannot break his word, cannot be less than he is. And so he is bound to time and timeliness, just as man with whom he covenants.
And he did not create time, for to say God is from eternity, defines a time before now; even a very old time, but time indeed. You cannot separate
God from time and stay within the scriptures.
< Message edited by theo_book -- 4/9/2008 9:26:05 AM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Old God New Earth? I don't think so. - 4/9/2008 9:38:20 AM
|
|
|
theo_book
Posts: 100
Joined: 4/8/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: WesSavedByGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: theo_book
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
JESUS dealt with men who purported to teach God's word; only he focused upon one aspect of men's teaching; the source. It must always go back to "WHAT SAITH THE SCRIPTURE?"
And where specifically does Scripture say time existed before the universe did?
Where specifically does scripture say God is not a spider?
That is not the way scripture works. You do not base faith on what is not said. It is based on a deep abiding trust in what is said, by evidence of things not seen.
LOL! Scripture says that God is eternal. Where is this time thing you speak of in reference to God? When did His time begin? 
"Eternal" comes from a Greek word "aionos" meaning "through the ages." There is no such word as eternal, only a concept of endlessness (age lasting). (Which I willl agree means much the same thing), "eternal" being a translation by men trained to think God is eternal.
"Eternal," endlessness," "age lasting" are all references to time. There are no references to "end of time" in scripture; only "end of the age,"
Heb 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the (kosmos) world: but now once in the end of the (aionos) world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Kosmos is the created earth while aionos is the end of the age. It is sad that the translators had to translate so many words so carelessly. This is just two examples.
Nevertheless, aionos is a reference to time, not the world. Specifically, this is a reference to the end of the Jewish age or dispensation.
As for your question, "God is" references how long God has been. As long as time itself. You will find no reference in scripture that shows God creating time.
Even the effort to establish light as time fails in light of scripture. They are not the same. That would presume God existed only so long as light existed, which denies the very premise that God existed in time to say "let there be light."
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Old God New Earth? I don't think so. - 4/9/2008 10:13:20 AM
|
|
|
Jhud
Posts: 6781
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: offline
|
quote:
Where specifically does scripture say God is not a spider?
That is not the way scripture works. You do not base faith on what is not said. It is based on a deep abiding trust in what is said, by evidence of things not seen.
Well, this is the primary problem with your reasoning; you claim to be appealing to Scripture in terms of when or whether time began, but you can cite no Scripture that talks about time beginning or always existing. And when others claim that time began when the universe began, you claim they aren't basing such a notion on Scripture!
So what we are left with a rather limited description of time from a a Scriptural perspective. As I have pointed out, Jude says that Christ existed 'before' time.
Jude 1:25 - to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever.
This could not be unless time came into existence at some point.
Also I think lacking in this conversation is a coherent notion of what time is.
Obviously it exists. Obviously, it is a property of this universe.
It isn't clear that it could exist outside of this universe where God must reside, and indeed, there is much we understand about the universe to suggest it really can't exist outside this universe, at least not as it does here.
So what you need to do then theo-book is proffer a reasonable definition of time, demonstrate that time as you have defined it can exist apart from the universe as it is, and that Scripture supports this notion.
I wish you well.
< Message edited by Jhud -- 4/9/2008 10:20:30 AM >
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-200
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Old God New Earth? I don't think so. - 4/9/2008 1:35:17 PM
|
|
|
WesP
Posts: 1524
Joined: 11/28/2005
From: Where God needs me to be
Status: offline
|
quote:
As for your question, "God is" references how long God has been. As long as time itself. You will find no reference in scripture that shows God creating time.
Even the effort to establish light as time fails in light of scripture. They are not the same. That would presume God existed only so long as light existed, which denies the very premise that God existed in time to say "let there be light.
theo,
I do not argue the whole light thing. It is pointless in view of God's power. Since you speculate that God has existed as long as time, when did He begin? How did that happen? Was there suddenly time and an omnipotent (with your exclusions) being that snapped into existence?
_____________________________
Peace,
Wes
Isaiah 40:31 But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Old God New Earth? I don't think so. - 4/9/2008 1:52:07 PM
|
|
|
theo_book
Posts: 100
Joined: 4/8/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: theo book
Where specifically does scripture say God is not a spider?
That is not the way scripture works. You do not base faith on what is not said. It is based on a deep abiding trust in what is said, by evidence of things not seen.
quote:
Well, this is the primary problem with your reasoning; you claim to be appealing to Scripture in terms of when or whether time began, but you can cite no Scripture that talks about time beginning or always existing. And when others claim that time began when the universe began, you claim they aren't basing such a notion on Scripture!
Not quite my friend. I am not appealing to scripture for when time began, for scripture is silent upon the subject. What I am saying is scripture's silence on the subject demands our silence as well.
To say "God is" or quote God saying "I am (who am)" itself tells you time existed in which God "IS." Nothing can "BE" if there is not time in which or during which one "is." Time is as old as God. And your earlier remark (I think it was you who posted it) that to be eternal has nothing to do with time, that being eternal is not the same as being old, misses the significance of both concepts. Eternal, old, and age, ALL relate to time.
"Age" and "old" both relate to how much time a person is perceived to have in his past, while "eternal" means in its simplest form, "age lasting." It has nothing to do with "beyond time."
quote:
So what we are left with a rather limited description of time from a a Scriptural perspective. As I have pointed out, Jude says that Christ existed 'before' time.
Jude 1:25 - to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever.
This could not be unless time came into existence at some point.
As I have previously pointed out, "time" is xronos in Greek, not aionos, which is "age." And the verse is adressed TO God, THROUGH our saviour Jeuss Christ, so it is GOD to whom glory, majesty, dominion, and authority before all age are attributed, NOT JESUS CHRIST.
And God certainly functioned prior to anything remotely perceived as "an age" so far as men are concerned.
quote:
Also I think lacking in this conversation is a coherent notion of what time is.
Obviously it exists. Obviously, it is a property of this universe.
That time is a property of this universe is not "obvious" to me. Quite the contrary, this universe is a property of Time and God's eternal purpose. God created the universe in time, not time in the universe.
quote:
It isn't clear that it could exist outside of this universe where God must reside, and indeed, there is much we understand about the universe to suggest it really can't exist outside this universe, at least not as it does here.
Clarify please! Are you saying "this universe where God must reside?" Or are you saying "exist outside of this universe where God must reside?"
Now it seems God is limited by his creation! If you say "God must reside in this universe," You say there is a place God cannot go. If you say God must reside outside this universe, you deny him place within the universe.
Both are incorrect. It still requires clarification so I know with which perception I must deal.
What do you understand to be the focus of "That God may be all in all?" Is there some boundary to the universe beyond which God cannot "be?" Reference please!
quote:
So what you need to do then theo-book is proffer a reasonable definition of time, demonstrate that time as you have defined it can exist apart from the universe as it is, and that Scripture supports this notion.
I wish you well.
Time is that notion of "when" during which God is, and contemplates, and acts, and functions as God. He cannot do anything or "Be" anything outside of "when," which is a reference to time.
Once more, time has always been, and will always be. It is not a construct. It is necessary for function, however infinitessimal, however irregarded; if there is "be" there must also be "When" to be.
Is this really so difficult to comprehend?
< Message edited by theo_book -- 4/9/2008 2:33:47 PM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Old God New Earth? I don't think so. - 4/9/2008 2:23:49 PM
|
|
|
theo_book
Posts: 100
Joined: 4/8/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: WesSavedByGrace
theo,
I do not argue the whole light thing. It is pointless in view of God's power. Since you speculate that God has existed as long as time, when did He begin? How did that happen? Was there suddenly time and an omnipotent (with your exclusions) being that snapped into existence?
I consider it a matter of "faith" not "speculation." Just because commentators mis-speak has no bearing on the reality expressed by scripture.
Show me the point at which time begins.
"In the beginning" can be a reference to anything which has/had a beginning. Text and context must supply sufficient modification to enable us to pinpoint the "when" under consideration.
It cannot reference the beginning of God for God had already been functioning prior to the "beginning" of Gen 1:1. (See Prov 8 for a "beginning of his way" that precedes Gen 1:1's "beginning."
Prov 8:22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. (This has to reference that point in time wherein God "began" his functioning beyond that of simply "being." But time was functioning whether we know how, or even understand the principle, or not. And it always is unidirectional. In this passage, "beginning," "before," and "old" are references to time.
"Now" is always understood to reference the time of the present of the author of the expression of the thought; "then" can be either prior time or subsequent time, text and context being determining factors; and "tomorrow" is always a future consideration.
And wisdom was "set up" prior to the earth's "being."
Prov 8:23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
Wisdom already "was" (present "am") before God created seas, mountains, hills, or even the earth itself.
24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.
25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:
26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
Gen 1:1 - Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. (This has to be the beginning of creation)
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.
Prov 8:30 THEN I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was DAILY his delight, rejoicing always before him;
"Then" references "time" and the word translated "daily" as in "I was daily his delight" is the same word translated "day" throughout the old testament. So again, both time, and the concept of regulation of time were already present prior to when God established the sun, moon, stars, and gave to men concepts ruling timeliness considerations. (Like sabbaths, sacrifices, and memorial days.)
If you can perceive God as always "being" why is it so hard to understand time had to have been always functioning? God had a "where" and a "when" in which to exist, whether he tells us of it or not.
To say time did not exist because I cannot explain "when" it began, is like saying God did not exist until men's minds developed sufficiently to accept that he did.
Why is it you can accept "God always was" but balk at the concept "time always was." Just because commentators are befuddled does not mean Christians are to follow their folly.
< Message edited by theo_book -- 4/9/2008 2:39:18 PM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Old God New Earth? I don't think so. - 4/9/2008 2:37:31 PM
|
|
|
WesP
Posts: 1524
Joined: 11/28/2005
From: Where God needs me to be
Status: offline
|
quote:
Why is it you can accept "God always was" but balk at the concept "time always was." Just because commentators are befuddled does not mean Christians are to follow their folly.
The only way for this to be possible is for time to run in both directions: past and future. That being said, it negates the principle definition of time. Therefore, it is not time. You see?
For several definitions of time, see here.
_____________________________
Peace,
Wes
Isaiah 40:31 But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Old God New Earth? I don't think so. - 4/9/2008 2:40:54 PM
|
|
|
Jhud
Posts: 6781
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: offline
|
quote:
Not quite my friend. I am not appealing to scripture for when time began, for scripture is silent upon the subject. What I am saying is scripture's silence on the subject demands our silence as well.
To say "God is" or quote God saying "I am (who am)" itself tells you time existed in which God "IS." Nothing can "BE" if there is not time in which or during which one "is." Time is as old as God. And your earlier remark (I think it was you who posted it) that to be eternal has nothing to do with time, that being eternal is not the same as being old, misses the significance of both concepts. Eternal, old, and age, ALL relate to time.
First off, we don’t use the ‘silence’ of Scripture to justify our positions; know one can say something is so because Scripture doesn’t say it is otherwise, which is just what you are doing. I can’t for example say gravity doesn’t exist when Scripture is silent on the matter; in the same way, I can’t say ‘time always was’ simply because Scripture doesn’t say otherwise.
quote:
"Age" and "old" both relate to how much time a person is perceived to have in his past, while "eternal" means in its simplest form, "age lasting." It has nothing to do with "beyond time."
But to put it more succinctly, when you say, “Time is as old as God” it shows how nonsensical your notion is, because time must be measured in some sort of units – days, months, seconds, nano-seconds, what have you. These are all product of changes in a sequence of events – if nothing changed, the idea of time would be meaningless.
God just ‘Is’, He doesn’t change, He is neither subject to, nor affected by, the passage of time; it is meaningless in terms of describing His existence, which is why He didn’t say to Moses, “I’m very old” “or “I’m eternal”, but rather, “I am” – that statement always describes His state of existence. It is a tensless staement of being.
quote:
As I have previously pointed out, "time" is xronos in Greek, not aionos, which is "age." And the verse is adressed TO God, THROUGH our saviour Jeuss Christ, so it is GOD to whom glory, majesty, dominion, and authority before all age are attributed, NOT JESUS CHRIST.
Are you suggesting God and Jesus are different in respect to there eternal existence?
quote:
And God certainly functioned prior to anything remotely perceived as "an age" so far as men are concerned.
So here you agree that the language used (age) is a product of human perspective on the matter of time. Could this be because God’s use of temporal language (Eternal, old, and age) is a matter of communicating to temporal beings rather than being a commentary on the nature of God’s existence?
quote:
That time is a property of this universe is not "obvious" to me. Quite the contrary, this universe is a property of Time and God's eternal purpose. God created the universe in time, not time in the universe.
Well, this brings us back to the original point, doesn’t it – when, from God’s perspective, did God create the universe?
quote:
Clarify please! Are you saying "this universe where God must reside?" Or are you saying "exist outside of htis universe where God must reside?"
Now it seems God is limited by his creation! If you say "God must reside in this universe," You say there is a place God cannot go. If you say God must reside outside this universe, you deny him place within the universe.
Both are incorrect. It still requires clarification so I know with which perception I must deal.
What do you understand to be the focus of "That God may be all in all?" Is there some boundary to the universe beyond which God cannot "be?" Reference please!
I hope you agree God exists apart from the universe (which did not always exist), and that His primary residence is not within the universe, though He may indeed involve Himself with it. If the universe were to no longer exist, God would not cease to exist, nor would any part of Him be lessened. So in that respect, He does not ‘reside’ (primarily inhabit) the universe and is not subject to it.
quote:
Time is that notion of "when" during which God is, and contemplates, and acts, and functions as God. He cannot do anything or "Be" anything outside of "when," which is a reference to time.
Once more, time has always been, and will always be. It is not a construct. It is necessary for function, however infinitessimal, however irregarded; if there is "be" there must also be "When" to be.
Is this really so difficult to comprehend?
Well, you make time out to be a god here; time is subject to God, not vice versa; presumably you believe God is not limited by time?
Do you believe God controls time? If so, how if it is not His creation?
Also, if there is always a ‘when’, then please tell us when God began.
< Message edited by Jhud -- 4/9/2008 2:48:04 PM >
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-200
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Old God New Earth? I don't think so. - 4/9/2008 2:53:04 PM
|
|
|
WesP
Posts: 1524
Joined: 11/28/2005
From: Where God needs me to be
Status: offline
|
quote:
Also, if there is always a ‘when’, then please tell us when God began.
Please, tell us!
_____________________________
Peace,
Wes
Isaiah 40:31 But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Old God New Earth? I don't think so. - 4/9/2008 2:54:45 PM
|
|
|
WesP
Posts: 1524
Joined: 11/28/2005
From: Where God needs me to be
Status: offline
|
quote:
As I have previously pointed out, "time" is xronos in Greek, not aionos, which is "age." And the verse is adressed TO God, THROUGH our saviour Jeuss Christ, so it is GOD to whom glory, majesty, dominion, and authority before all age are attributed, NOT JESUS CHRIST.
theo,
The above quote really disturbs me, too. I look forward to the response you give Jack.
_____________________________
Peace,
Wes
Isaiah 40:31 But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Old God New Earth? I don't think so. - 4/9/2008 3:00:34 PM
|
|
|
theo_book
Posts: 100
Joined: 4/8/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: WesSavedByGrace
quote:
Why is it you can accept "God always was" but balk at the concept "time always was." Just because commentators are befuddled does not mean Christians are to follow their folly.
The only way for this to be possible is for time to run in both directions: past and future. That being said, it negates the principle definition of time. Therefore, it is not time. You see?
For several definitions of time, see here.
I think you conflict the perception of time with the reality of time. Much time can pass when we are concentrating on a focussed objective, and we say "Where has the time gone?" Or, we may be waiting for some important event, and wonder why it takes so much time to "happen." So, the perception of time's passing is subjective in the extreme.
That has no bearing on the fact of time's function in the universe.
You send me to a page having many definitions of time, then observe "it negates the principle definition of time," without delineating the principle definition of time. Yet, I perceive you expect of me, "the" definition of time that will satisfy all needs. Not likely.
I have said all that is necessary to understand my position. Time references the "when" during which events happen. It is a "duration," a passage of available "during"ness by which to get things accomplished, or to block the accomplishment of things.
To my comment: "time always was." you responded "The only way for this to be possible is for time to run in both directions: past and future.
Can you explain why that is so? When I was a child, my grandparents were perceived as "always being." As I grew older, I thought of them as having always been. Because for me, time was subjective, limited by my exposure to its fact of being, I was limited in perceptions about it.
As I now plumb its merits, I perceive time outside of my own experience, but make no demands as to what it must consist of. I can only express what I understand as to its focus and function. And I do not see that it must be bi-directional to have always been functioning.
< Message edited by theo_book -- 4/9/2008 4:18:43 PM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Old God New Earth? I don't think so. - 4/9/2008 3:03:23 PM
|
|
|
WesP
Posts: 1524
Joined: 11/28/2005
From: Where God needs me to be
Status: offline
|
quote:
And I do not see that it must be bi-directional to have always been functioning.
So what duration was first?
_____________________________
Peace,
Wes
Isaiah 40:31 But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Old God New Earth? I don't think so. - 4/9/2008 3:06:27 PM
|
|
|
theo_book
Posts: 100
Joined: 4/8/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: WesSavedByGrace
quote:
And I do not see that it must be bi-directional to have always been functioning.
So what duration was first?
NOW!
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Old God New Earth? I don't think so. - 4/9/2008 3:14:14 PM
|
|
|
Jhud
Posts: 6781
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: offline
|
quote:
I have said all that is necessary to understand my position. Time references the "when" during which events happen. It is a "duration," a passage of available "during"ness by which to get things accomplished, or to block the accomplishment of things.
So when from God's perspective did God create the universe, and for what duration did He 'possess' wisdom'?
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-200
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Old God New Earth? I don't think so. - 4/9/2008 3:15:14 PM
|
|
|
Jhud
Posts: 6781
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: offline
|
quote:
Attention moderators. Any chance we can get an emoticon with a person sucking his finger while in a fetal position?
That is an excellent suggestion.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-200
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Old God New Earth? I don't think so. - 4/9/2008 4:04:54 PM
|
|
|
Jhud
Posts: 6781
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: offline
|
quote:
I was hoping for one with a guy inspecting the contents of his nose. But it might require too many bytes.
Not to mention affecting one's lunch (which I suppose would reduce the bites)
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-200
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Old God New Earth? I don't think so. - 4/9/2008 4:10:37 PM
|
|
|
theo_book
Posts: 100
Joined: 4/8/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
Not quite my friend. I am not appealing to scripture for when time began, for scripture is silent upon the subject. What I am saying is scripture's silence on the subject demands our silence as well.
To say "God is" or quote God saying "I am (who am)" itself tells you time existed in which God "IS." Nothing can "BE" if there is not time in which or during which one "is." Time is as old as God. And your earlier remark (I think it was you who posted it) that to be eternal has nothing to do with time, that being eternal is not the same as being old, misses the significance of both concepts. Eternal, old, and age, ALL relate to time.
First off, we don’t use the ‘silence’ of Scripture to justify our positions; know one can say something is so because Scripture doesn’t say it is otherwise, which is just what you are doing. I can’t for example say gravity doesn’t exist when Scripture is silent on the matter; in the same way, I can’t say ‘time always was’ simply because Scripture doesn’t say otherwise.
Oh. And what then were you doing when you posted "Time began when the universe began, so as much as you believe God created the universe, you also believe He created time," in post number six?
Is it not an appeal to the silence of scriptures?
And when I showed from the scriptures that some actions predated the Gen 1 account, showing that time existed prior to Gen 1's record of the creation, it is not the silence of scriptures to which I appeal, but to the clearly stated historical account [Prov 8] of what took place and in what order.
So far it has not been refuted, only disagreed with.
quote:
"Age" and "old" both relate to how much time a person is perceived to have in his past, while "eternal" means in its simplest form, "age lasting." It has nothing to do with "beyond time."
But to put it more succinctly, when you say, “Time is as old as God” it shows how nonsensical your notion is, because time must be measured in some sort of units – days, months, seconds, nano-seconds, what have you. These are all product of changes in a sequence of events – if nothing changed, the idea of time would be meaningless.
Well, I don't think "nano-seconds" is a product of the universe so much as it is a product of the mind of men. And while it is true, we live in the universe, I do not think it prudent to give the universe credit for all the machinations of the minds of men.
And the measures of time (artificially applied by men) are not the reality of time. I may speak of a pica-second, but that has no relation to the reality of some segment of time duration other than the saying of it.
And there is no direc | | |
Forum Tools
Printable Version
