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RE: 400 children in custody in polygamist compound raid - 4/14/2008 1:43:12 AM
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1love1God1way
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quote:
ORIGINAL: iSERVEaJEW
quote:
ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
Completely different time, culture, covenant, religion, reason, causation, results. . .
That's a very weak statement.
To talk about King David without the context of King David's whole life is purely prooftext.
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-Ben-
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RE: 400 children in custody in polygamist compound raid - 4/14/2008 1:51:40 AM
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iSERVEaJEW
Posts: 445
Joined: 3/29/2008
From: Canada
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
quote:
ORIGINAL: iSERVEaJEW
quote:
ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
Completely different time, culture, covenant, religion, reason, causation, results. . .
That's a very weak statement.
To talk about King David without the context of King David's whole life is purely prooftext.
Let me say it another way in the hope that I will get my message across to you. I was comparing King David's marriages to those of FLDS men. The similarities are what matters - that having more than one young wife shouldn't be thought of as an evil thing for FLDS men if you don't think that it was evil for King David. It was an attempt to illustrate that it isn't fair of us to condemn these men if we exonerate King David for being a "pervert... [with] sex slaves."
I also pointed out that it isn't right to condemn men who might be accused of a crime before they're actually found guilty.
I've said these things one or twice already this thread and I shouldn't have to say it again. If you continue to not accept what I'm saying I hope that we can just move on.
_____________________________
Saved by His grace alone.
Called to be His disciple and imitating Him.
Keeping the Torah with zeal.
http://www.journalof911studies.com/volume/200704/JonesWTC911SciMethod.pdf
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RE: 400 children in custody in polygamist compound raid - 4/14/2008 2:06:57 AM
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1love1God1way
Posts: 2004
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You continue to ignore the differences between a Jew living thousands of years ago in the middle east who had multiple wives, and old men living in Texas in the year 2008 forcing teen girls into marriage.
I'm pretty sure this behavior is no longer permitted. . .
Unless, of course, you are a cultural relativist.
_____________________________
-Ben-
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RE: 400 children in custody in polygamist compound raid - 4/14/2008 4:19:56 AM
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Annie64
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From: Indianapolis, IN
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I was very interested in the King David argument being talked about here. And I have a little bit different opinion of it. King David was a great king and a true lover of God but the Bible is clear that he was not perfect. Deuteronomy 17:17 states "He [the king] must not take many wives, or his heart will be led astray." David, with his eighteen wives, was in violation of this law, though he was acting in an expected way for a king in his culture. Just because it was expected doesn't mean it was right. David was absolutely wrong to do this! Look at the example he gave his son!
On the other hand, iSERVEaJEW also has a point. I hadn't thought about it before in all of this, until now. The FLDS men are human beings. We need to remember that the ones who are the ones who perpetrated this crime were raised to do this, and were taught from the time that they were children that this was right and expected. And it's also important to remember that no matter how loathsome their behavior, these are people Jesus died for. In fact, we're all guilty of loathesome behavior, and that was the reason Jesus went to the cross.
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On Christ the solid rock I stand
ALL other ground is sinking sand.
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RE: 400 children in custody in polygamist compound raid - 4/14/2008 4:37:20 AM
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Ephesians4_32
Posts: 2039
Joined: 4/30/2005
From: The Crossroads of America
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HisLamb26
quote:
Do what to an infant?
See 3Capps link.
Thank you for pointing out the link.
“The method he would use with infants was a form of water torture,” Jessop said of her former husband. “He would spank the baby until it was screaming out of control, and then he would hold the baby faceup under a tap of running water so it couldn’t breathe. He would do this repeatedly. Sometimes, it would go on for an hour, until the baby was so exhausted it couldn’t cry anymore. This method he called ‘breaking them.’”
quote:
Who could do that to an infant?
A very evil person!
Now what I see is that this one woman's husband was allegedly guilty of this crime. Do all the men in this cult treat infants like that?
I ask because my LDS brother-in-law was(no longer know if he's even alive) a child molestor. My husband was also LDS and he was not and is not a child molestor.
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RE: 400 children in custody in polygamist compound raid - 4/14/2008 4:42:48 AM
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Ephesians4_32
Posts: 2039
Joined: 4/30/2005
From: The Crossroads of America
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mb35
quote:
FLDS aren't fundamentalist Christians. Their beliefs are a perversion of Christianity; they don't even believe in our God!
Yeah, old joey smith rubbed his magic rocks together and put out press releases - all of a sudden he's greater than Jesus. Like Romney and other LD$'ers, they now openly condemn the practice of polygamy. However, their pedophile prophet had a direct revelation from God - so, that immediately makes all the LD$'ers that disagree a fraud. Although I think the FLDS'ers are even worse than the LD$'ers, at least they aren't hypocrites. But, they're as dumb as those rocks joey smith rubbed together.
They should just leave out the "m" and call them all Morons. For the record, I'm all about religous freedom. I read of lot of various material. However, the history of the LD$ Church (aside from polygamy), can't be overlooked - no matter how hard the LD$'ers try to cover it up!! The history of polygamy is one of disgust - and it's very destructive. Think of all the fun!!!! - your Aunt can be you mother-in-law....your 12 year old neice can be your wife, etc., etc., etc. - that sure makes Christmas dinner a whole lot more comfortable!!
You know, I wish they'd just take the name of the ONE, that being Jesus Christ, out of their name. I know it helps them convert people and validate their religion (by stealing from another religion) - it makes financial sense. But, to place joey smith above Jesus on top of it all.....just makes me sick.
You seem to have a somewhat distorted view of this religion. None of them, FLDS or LDS, place Joseph Smith above Jesus Christ. FLDS might believe that J. Smith is equal to Christ.
< Message edited by Ephesians4_32 -- 4/14/2008 5:11:21 AM >
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RE: 400 children in custody in polygamist compound raid - 4/14/2008 5:05:06 AM
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Ephesians4_32
Posts: 2039
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 3cappuccinosmom
quote:
The reason it is called sexual abuse is because the girls are under the legal age for marriage.
No. It is because they are being forced to marry. There is a difference between a 14 yo girl who wants to marry and her parents sign consent for it, and a 14 yo girl who does not want to be the 8th wife of a dirty old man, but is required to anyway. You can't see a difference?
Oh, yes, I see. I don't approve of forced marriages (they're probably happening all over the world). We need to do all we can to prevent it in our country.
Remember Genesis 29:25?
And it came to pass, that in the morning, behold, it was Leah: and he said to Laban, What is this thou hast done unto me? did not I serve with thee for Rachel? wherefore then hast thou beguiled me?
The girls are being forced to marry under the legal age in Texas. The FLDS fathers no doubt approve of it.
In Texas the legal age is 18 without from a parent or legal guardian. If under the age of 16, the law requires that the couple receives a court order before being allowed to marry.
quote:
ORIGINAL: 3cappuccinosmom
Did y'all hear that they found a bed in the "temple". 
ELDORADO, Texas - Agents searching a 1,700-acre polygamist compound in West Texas found a bed in the soaring limestone temple and prosecutors believe it was used for male members to have sex with their underage wives after sect-recognized unions.
Bed
I don't think the bed is the problem if you know what I mean. My husband and I went to bed on our wedding night! 
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RE: 400 children in custody in polygamist compound raid - 4/14/2008 5:34:37 AM
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Ephesians4_32
Posts: 2039
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From: The Crossroads of America
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quote:
ORIGINAL: happyhippie
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32
quote:
ORIGINAL: happyhippie
Remember David Koresh. He was a cult bu the precedent has been set. Janet Reno branded all fundamentalist Christians as cults.
FLDS aren't fundamentalist Christians. Their beliefs are a perversion of Christianity; they don't even believe in our God!
Can you tell us when and where Janet Reno said that Fundamentalist Christians are a cult? Or did you just hear it and can't remember your source of that alleged accusation?
I remember Rush and other radio hosts playing the soundbite several times after the David Koresh incident. I never said FLDS were Christians. It just scares me when governments get to decide what is true and not true when it comes to religions.
I don't think our government decides what is true and not true. We expect our government to protect children. And the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives is a necessary agency; its responsibilities include the investigation and prevention of federal offenses involving the unlawful use, manufacture, and possession of firearms and explosives, acts of arson and bombings, and illegal trafficking of alcohol and tobacco products. Our government isn't concerned with having a state religion so it allows some extremely weird religions to exist along with Christianity.
Did Janet Reno say that all Fundamentalist Christians are a cult? NO, she did not.
Claim: Janet Reno provided her definition of a "cultist" during a 60 Minutes interview in 1994...Status: False
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RE: 400 children in custody in polygamist compound raid - 4/14/2008 7:50:41 AM
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happyhippie
Posts: 45
Joined: 4/7/2008
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Are you acually saying the BATF is a good organization? There are dozens of dead children in Texas, Randy Weaver, and many other victims of this runaway organization that would differ. If this "organization is only concerned with Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms(which are legal products) only then why did they provide "security" when we had a big hurricane down her several yrs ago?
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RE: 400 children in custody in polygamist compound raid - 4/15/2008 8:08:27 PM
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Ephesians4_32
Posts: 2039
Joined: 4/30/2005
From: The Crossroads of America
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quote:
ORIGINAL: iSERVEaJEW
The similarities are what matters - that having more than one young wife shouldn't be thought of as an evil thing for FLDS men if you don't think that it was evil for King David. It was an attempt to illustrate that it isn't fair of us to condemn these men if we exonerate King David for being a "pervert... [with] sex slaves."
I also pointed out that it isn't right to condemn men who might be accused of a crime before they're actually found guilty.
Bigamy is a crime in the United States.
Matthew 5
28But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
1 Timothy 3
2A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
Titus 1
5For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:
6If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.
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RE: 400 children in custody in polygamist compound raid - 4/15/2008 9:28:06 PM
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relady
Posts: 961
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Greater St. Louis Metro
Status: online
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quote:
People want to practice "polyamory" and other perversions, well, sick , but the government doesn't have much say. Actually, polygamy IS against the law. These groups just manage to skirt it. The law in TX knew this was going on. They knew these people were there and what they were doing. I don't know that they knew to what extent it was going on.
And at least some of these girls were under 14. The reports I've heard said they married them as soon as they reached puberty. Got news for ya...that may be as young as 10 or 11 nowadays. This is just sick.
BTW, all the rumors about the Janet Reno stuff.....exactly that. Check it out on Snopes.com. It was an exaggerated urban legend.
And yeah, I'm all for polygamy as long as we make it a two way street. What about it guys? (kidding)
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RE: 400 children in custody in polygamist compound raid - 4/16/2008 4:46:58 PM
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dawgfan42
Posts: 5481
Joined: 4/20/2005
From: Cleveland now in Honolulu..
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I lived in Arizona for close to 13 years. The very same thing is going on in Colorado City. (FLDS) but they are reluctant to go in there and,protect the children. Why is that?
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RE: 400 children in custody in polygamist compound raid - 4/16/2008 5:10:17 PM
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Ephesians4_32
Posts: 2039
Joined: 4/30/2005
From: The Crossroads of America
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quote:
ORIGINAL: dawgfan_40
I lived in Arizona for close to 13 years. The very same thing is going on in Colorado City. (FLDS) but they are reluctant to go in there and,protect the children. Why is that?
Because how do you know that the FLDS won't take up arms and we'd have another Waco? Where do you take these traumatized children if it isn't like Waco? You also have to have enough evidence to justify going in there. Law enforcement doesn't just issue search warrants without probable cause and a chance to prove something in court.
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RE: 400 children in custody in polygamist compound raid - 4/16/2008 5:22:56 PM
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mapachito13
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Joined: 10/1/2007
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I thought Genesis 2:24 said "... and the two will become one body." I didn't read twelve. 
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RE: 400 children in custody in polygamist compound raid - 4/16/2008 11:20:08 PM
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lightshineon
Posts: 3422
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: online
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agreed
quote:
ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
quote:
ORIGINAL: happyhippie
Sounds like an overzealous over reaching power hungry government. Yes it is a cult but we will be next.
I see your name fits you well, happyhippie.
Perhaps you disagree that it is a bad thing to force 14 year old girls into marriage with old perverts?
_____________________________
Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: 400 children in custody in polygamist compound raid - 4/16/2008 11:23:43 PM
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lightshineon
Posts: 3422
Joined: 4/11/2005
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not to mention the lost boys, older men kick out, just kick them to the curb, so they can have the younger women. not good people, in the way they live. They know the laws of the land, no matter how they were raised.
_____________________________
Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: 400 children in custody in polygamist compound raid - 4/17/2008 8:57:11 AM
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Closie
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Many of the mothers said there was "no force. Everything we do is by choice." But when is it a choice? If you're told you're supposed to do this over and over and over, you see people punished or banned if they don't, when you're asked if you want to do it, you might say yes.
King David was a flawed man, by his own admission. The Apostle Paul was a flawed man by his own admission. Elijah was depressed and had doubt. The scriptures are there to provide us with examples of what to do and what not to do. Those examples can be shown in the same person.
I pray that Holy Spirit move swiftly to resolve the issues in a way that bring glory to the Lord and safety to the children.
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RE: 400 children in custody in polygamist compound raid - 4/17/2008 10:04:40 AM
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HisLamb26
Posts: 349
Joined: 4/17/2005
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quote:
But, I can't get past the fact that some of these girls had to have been "married" at 12 or 13, in order to be 16 with 4 children, as one of the reports mentioned.
That's disgusting.
My oldest daughter is going to be 12 this summer, and I can't imagine allowing her to be raped by some middle aged pervert, and NOT guarding her with my very life.
And I don't care if these men were raised to think child rape is ok.....That doesn't excuse the behavior of these perverts.
I hope they are able to similiarly break up the child rape ring masking as a religion in Colorado City.
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RE: 400 children in custody in polygamist compound raid - 4/17/2008 5:55:32 PM
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Ephesians4_32
Posts: 2039
Joined: 4/30/2005
From: The Crossroads of America
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Closie
Many of the mothers said there was "no force. Everything we do is by choice." But when is it a choice? If you're told you're supposed to do this over and over and over, you see people punished or banned if they don't, when you're asked if you want to do it, you might say yes.
You're right. We all want to survive and we will agree to what we think we can do to survive in the society we are in. A few people have the courage to go against the flow and they are branded as rebels. Like Rosa Parks. I'm sure people had plenty to say about her!
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I heard one interview with one of the wives, and thought it was bizarre. It may be that being so cloistered they've developed their own accent of speech, but still, the way she talked was soooo scripted and stilted. 
