How to Teach/Parent/Discipline Troublesome Students (Full Version)

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lewbcw -> How to Teach/Parent/Discipline Troublesome Students (4/6/2008 10:28:31 PM)

Hi Everyone,

This is my first post here, but I've enjoyed reading CW Forums for quite some time.

I have a question/dilemma regarding how to teach/parent/discipline middle school-aged students, who are troublesome (bad behavior), from a Christian perspective. Though I do not have children of my own, I work as a substitute teacher in a predominantly urban, lower-income area with mostly middle school students.

The particular school district that I work in has much more extreme types of defiant and disrespectful student behavior on a typical day than the schools that I attended while growing up. (There's also a growing gang problem that I am not completely familiar with, but that others have mentioend to me in the past.) Although I've had success in working with students who are are well-behaved and moderately troublesome (those who may misbehave, but relent to authority after multiple warnings and disciplinary measures), I have had less success in dealing with the more unruly and violent kids. The latter group are the kids who fight (both verbal and physical) with others, disrespect the teacher and other students (e.g., cursing and name-calling), and are frequently involved in various types of disruptive behavior.

I'm hoping to gain some feedback and advice on how to deal with this latter group of troublesome students and am wondering if there are any good Christian books/resources that deal with these issues that people could recommend?

Thanks!



TMeeks -> RE: How to Teach/Parent/Discipline Troublesome Students (4/7/2008 12:43:35 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lewbcw

Hi Everyone,

This is my first post here, but I've enjoyed reading CW Forums for quite some time.

I have a question/dilemma regarding how to teach/parent/discipline middle school-aged students, who are troublesome (bad behavior), from a Christian perspective. Though I do not have children of my own, I work as a substitute teacher in a predominantly urban, lower-income area with mostly middle school students.

The particular school district that I work in has much more extreme types of defiant and disrespectful student behavior on a typical day than the schools that I attended while growing up. (There's also a growing gang problem that I am not completely familiar with, but that others have mentioend to me in the past.) Although I've had success in working with students who are are well-behaved and moderately troublesome (those who may misbehave, but relent to authority after multiple warnings and disciplinary measures), I have had less success in dealing with the more unruly and violent kids. The latter group are the kids who fight (both verbal and physical) with others, disrespect the teacher and other students (e.g., cursing and name-calling), and are frequently involved in various types of disruptive behavior.

I'm hoping to gain some feedback and advice on how to deal with this latter group of troublesome students and am wondering if there are any good Christian books/resources that deal with these issues that people could recommend?

Thanks!

I don't know of any books. But, I can offer some simple advice to try.

Working as a substitute already sets you up for disruption because the kids see it as a day off. This would even be true in a Christian school. So, NEVER try to be friends. You are NOT their friend, you are their TEACHER. You can be a KIND teacher. But, you are still their TEACHER. And, their caretakers (as they are called in urban settings) sent them to school so they wouldn't have to dig ditches for a living and you are going to see that they learn. Period.

A tough teacher can have fun with their students. An weak teacher cannot.

Advice #1: Never make it about you. Make it about their peers.

Respect is a big thing among teens and especially so in urban neighborhoods. So, never say, "You are interrupting me." ..or.. "I can't teach with you interrupting!" Never make it about YOU.

Make it about their peers. "I am not going to let you show disrespect to your fellow classmates that want to learn!" ..or.. "Ben, I expect every student in this class to respect every other student... and right now you are not showing them respect."

Advice #2: The louder they get the quieter you get.

This flies in the face of a teacher's instincts. But, there are ALWAYS students who DO want to hear. And, if your voice rises as the class noise rises these students can still hear over the noise. But, if you LOWER your voice then these students cannot hear and they usually will start calling for the others to quiet down.

Advice #3: Use Silence.

This one may or may not work in your particular school. But, it's worth a try.

When you first come into a classroom, and the class is unruly, be completely silent and remain silent until you see that they are getting nervous about the silence. If they continue. Just say, "I don't teach students that don't show respect for each other." and resume the quiet treatment. If you have to, point out those that are respectful and those that aren't and then resume silence until those that want to learn take control. Silence drives kids crazy. There is NOTHING that they like less than silence.

There is one common denominator in all of these techniques. It's about their peers. It's not about the teacher. They could care less if you are unhappy. But, they care a lot if their peers are unhappy.

Think a lot about the importance of respect in lower income neighborhoods. Think how you can use it with the toughest of the tough. "Ben, would it be right for me to disrespect you? No? Then, why is it OK for you to disrespect Jim or Jamie or me? You may not see that that is what you are doing. But, it is. Come on, man... Let's respect each other for the next hour. OK?"

Make respect work for you and them.



brothertodd -> RE: How to Teach/Parent/Discipline Troublesome Students (4/7/2008 1:30:55 AM)

Tmeeks has given good advice, I myself have been a counselor at treatment centers for kids like this. Alot of them loose control when at home usually by a dominating family figure at home, and this behavior they exhibit is them getting control back, even though they are out of control.
It is very important like Tmeeks said you are not to be a friend, but a teacher. In my instance an athoritativre figure. I have seen fellow staff go in with an attitude of being their friend, to try to connect better. the problem and possible danger in this is when it is time to be athorative they take offence and usually get even. I have seen fellow staff members put in hospitals all due to being their friends attitude.I dont have any better advice then what has been given. Just dont show fear, and let them know if they want respect from you they have to respect you too. Let them know its there world not yours, if they want a negitive world-make negative choices, a positive world- make the positive choices.
Look up Josh Mcdowell's web site, and if possibe get his book on youth counselling



car2ner -> RE: How to Teach/Parent/Discipline Troublesome Students (4/7/2008 6:11:30 AM)

being a sub, you don't really get a chance to estalish your authority on a regular basis. I agree, firm first (not mean, just mean what you say)... the quiet strength. Not a guarantee of settling down students who intend to make an issue and show off. The next best tool, the phone to the office. Pick it up and use it for major problems right away. It will let the office and the students know that you mean business (and neither the office or the students will appreciate it at first).



Row1 -> RE: How to Teach/Parent/Discipline Troublesome Students (4/7/2008 9:42:59 AM)

cool. some good advice.
i would also add some social strategies.

as kids come in the door, greet every single one.

beginning with the first couple of kids to show up, tell them the plan for the day.

as you lecture or when they are doing work, roam all around the classrooom.

smile at kids one to one.

give little compliments.

by all of this, you end up developing and shaping the social scene in the room. if you stay at your desk waiting for them to be quiet before you START to create the environment, you are far behind them - they hve already started.

also - this may sound impossible, but is not -
learn every single kids' name.

before the class time, look through the roster. then you will have seen/read each kids' name.

as they come in, ask their name. try to remember each kids' name.

later, you can call on a couple by name. also, when you don't remember their name, you can say - 'sorry, i forgot your name..can you remind me." that is almost as good as remembering.

knowing names reduces the degree that they are anonymous, and allowed to act as we humans do when we are anonymous.

to learn how to learn 30 people's names in a few minutes, just look for the couple of strategies on the web. like making an association between the person's name and something else - if some one is 'johnny' think of johnny carson, then imagine that kid hosting the tonight show. chances are, you will remember his name forever.

then practice - keep looking at the room of kids and repeating the names.

this will help a lot. plus, sometimes you substitute in the same room for a few days, and will be invaluable.

i have worked in a couple similar situations. it helped a lot to know names, and greet each kid right at the beginning.



lewbcw -> RE: How to Teach/Parent/Discipline Troublesome Students (4/12/2008 1:41:14 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Row1

cool. some good advice.
i would also add some social strategies.

as kids come in the door, greet every single one.

beginning with the first couple of kids to show up, tell them the plan for the day.

as you lecture or when they are doing work, roam all around the classrooom.

smile at kids one to one.

give little compliments.

by all of this, you end up developing and shaping the social scene in the room. if you stay at your desk waiting for them to be quiet before you START to create the environment, you are far behind them - they hve already started.


Hi Row1,

Thank you specifically for your "pre-class" social strategies. I can definitely add these tips to my repetoire. The point you made about not waiting for the class to quiet down to get started, but instead to start working on setting the tone and getting the kids prepared as they walk in is great. I agree that it's usually too late to set the tone if you wait until THEY quiet down first.

Thanks and Blessings,
lewbcw



IAMJulie -> RE: How to Teach/Parent/Discipline Troublesome Students (4/12/2008 4:59:47 PM)

The folks who write the Love and Logic books and do the seminars offer materials specifically for teachers. I can't remember the web address but you can google it to check out what they have to offer.



lewbcw -> RE: How to Teach/Parent/Discipline Troublesome Students (4/12/2008 11:58:41 PM)

Thanks Brothertodd and TMeeks. I appreciate your comments.

I did have a follow-up question, however, about the teacher/friend problem you two mentioned. I have often heard it said by many parents/teachers that we should never be a friend to our kids/students, but rather an authority figure first and foremost. And their reasoning was partially the same as yours - that kids need guidance and can confuse boundaries if you are perceived as a friend. When serious matters or disciplinary issues come up, as you alluded to, they can become upset or confused about what your role is....

Would you happen to know if there were specific Biblical passages dealing with this? And also, could you elaborate on the differences between a friend and being friendly? I know it's a tough balance to maintain - being both authoritative and loving/friendly (without being a friend) at the same time. [sm=comp1.gif]

Thanks,
lewbcw



lewbcw -> RE: How to Teach/Parent/Discipline Troublesome Students (4/13/2008 12:40:54 AM)

Another thing I wanted to add was that the kids I was referring to happen to be more of the type who misbehave in "extreme" ways (I realize this is relative though)...I'm talking more about kids who curse at you, threaten you, and/or have a defiant and unruly attitude/behavior.

In talking with friends and colleagues, who have worked in other school districts, I have found that they have much different disciplinary problems with their students than the ones in my community and district. I realize this has a lot to do with the different social, cultural, and economic factors affecting my students' lives, but I still need to deal with their disciplinary problems fairly and consistently as a teacher. Whereas the typical bad day for some of my friends teaching in other school districts might consist of a student refusing to do work and possibly cursing and causing a scene, this is almost the norm with some of the students and classes I teach in. There are much more severe social and personal problems facing the youth that I work with than those from different districts. The typical students I have are often exposed to drugs, sex, violence (guns), and other vices at an early age (some as early as Fourth Grade). In one particular elementary school I taught at, close to every child in my Fourth Grade class understood and knew about marijauna and oral sex, as they were discussing both in depth during a recess break. They also talked about being scared to walk outside after 7:00PM, because of the drug dealers and shootings in their neighborhood. It's understandable that by the time they get to middle school, where I teach, that these kids are hardened and jaded by some of what they've seen (and often apathetic about their education).

...But to return to my original point, I would like to gain a better understanding of how to work with and discipline kids/students coming from difficult backgrounds and whose "normal" behavior is quite "bad" compared to other kids from more stable family and community backgrounds? Though I am only serving as a substitute instructor at the moment, I still often see and work with the same kids/classes/schools on a regular basis. I tend to stick with a limited number of schools to work in, so that I can have a better repoire with the students, instead of walking into a class and school building cold.

Perhaps someone who has parented a particularly rebellious child may have some parrallel experiences and suggestions? I greatly appreciate everyone's thoughts and advice so far. Thank you again.

lewbcw



42servehymn -> RE: How to Teach/Parent/Discipline Troublesome Students (4/16/2008 7:50:58 PM)

I wish I had words of advice for you but I'm sorry to say I don't. I just wanted to say how refreshing it is that you are looking for a way to reach these difficult kids instead of just writing them off as a lost cause. My youngest went through some difficult times in middle school. It was nothing like what you are dealing with but certainly difficult to us. I saw his teachers just decide that he wasn't worth the effort and just focus on their easier students. Once he got to high school he had one teacher in particular who refused to believe what he was trying to show her and instead saw who he really was and built on that. She was instrumental in him making changes in his behavior. Teachers such as yourself are a rare breed indeed. May God bless your efforts.



pbaribeault -> RE: How to Teach/Parent/Discipline Troublesome Students (4/16/2008 9:22:56 PM)

With kids like these, the illusion of authority isn't going to work.

Ordinary school kids have this idea that you obey your teacher 'or else' - they don't tend to ask "Or else what?" (Or if they do ask, they understand that they get sent to the office, but they don't know what's going to happen there.) This is the illusion of authority, and most people remain under it all their lives. (Like people who believe a nurse or doctor can 'make' them do something they object to etc.)

These kids have no illusion of authority. In your case you're going to have to have the capacity to act. Your best course is to find out things you can actually do that will act as a deterrent. Then figure out exactly what you will use those deterrents against, and how.

For example, you are capable of writing a student's name on the board (provided that you know their names... which I would really recommend that you do, and can reference by picture). This can act as a deterrent because it is kind of an absurdly childish way to treat someone who is trying to be cool. So then you decide to tolerate unlimited mild cursing, not directed at you, up to 3 curses directed at you, and no use of the Lord's name after a warning. At the first incident, you calmly warn, "I allow each student to curse at me up to 3 times. If you go over your limit, I'll put you in that box on the board. You might want to save the rest of your strikes in case I really tick you off later. " The situation is diffused, you have not needed to use a head-to-head confrontational technique, you've not even given a command -- but the warning is understood. (On the third curse, you write their name on the board -- including middle name would be particularly effective -- and continue as if nothing had happened.) You'll need another 'level' in case they continue to escalate, of course.

In the end, the most you can do is send them to the office, and you need to be willing to do that, but in the meantime, what other things can you do?

You can (try) to 'make' them stand up while you move their desk to an undesirable place in the room. If you can 'make' them stand, you can remove their desk completely, or you can even 'make' every student stand for a time while you teach if the whole class is unruly. (This trying to 'make' them do stuff is going to need a back-up real consequence for if a student refuses to your face.)

Can you eat up their lunch hour or make them stay late? Can you provide a nice thing at the end of the day, but eliminate that privilege from misbehaving students? Can you shine an unused overhead projector directly at someone who is not complying? (OK, not if that would hurt... do you think it would hurt?)

You see what I mean? Clear, reasonable non-confrontational limits on their behaviour, backed up with consequences that you can actually make happen. (Make sure that you also know what you WILL put up with, so you don't waste your words on battles you aren't planning to fight.)



TMeeks -> RE: How to Teach/Parent/Discipline Troublesome Students (4/16/2008 10:53:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lewbcw

Thanks Brothertodd and TMeeks. I appreciate your comments.

I did have a follow-up question, however, about the teacher/friend problem you two mentioned. I have often heard it said by many parents/teachers that we should never be a friend to our kids/students, but rather an authority figure first and foremost. And their reasoning was partially the same as yours - that kids need guidance and can confuse boundaries if you are perceived as a friend. When serious matters or disciplinary issues come up, as you alluded to, they can become upset or confused about what your role is....

Would you happen to know if there were specific Biblical passages dealing with this? And also, could you elaborate on the differences between a friend and being friendly? I know it's a tough balance to maintain - being both authoritative and loving/friendly (without being a friend) at the same time. [sm=comp1.gif]

Thanks,
lewbcw

Being a 'friend' and being 'friendly' are two entirely different concepts. You get your authority from the fact that you are their parent's (or guardian's) proxy. The parent sent them to school expecting you to teach them and that is the charge you have. That charge makes you a peer with their parents and not the child's peer. In this role you can certainly be friendly as long as both you and they know that you are an adult and they are children.

If you revert to a 'friend' roll, you move down from being a peer of their parents and become their peer... which is confusing since they know by your age that you are NOT their peer.

If you are authoritive then you can actually afford to be MORE friendly to your charges and have a lot more fun than a teacher that trys to be a 'friend'. That is because if your establish your authority as their parent's proxy you can pulled the class back to order should the fun get out of hand. In all classrooms there is a time for hard work and a time for play. Being able to move between those states smoothly is what makes for a great classroom experience.

I don't know of any specific Bible verses except, perhaps, this:

Ecclesiastes 3:1
There is a time for everything, and a season for every activity under heaven:

That is certainly true for teaching.



TMeeks -> RE: How to Teach/Parent/Discipline Troublesome Students (4/16/2008 11:10:53 PM)

I'll tell you a funny story about one technique I tried. There was one 8th grade class that was a bit more fiesty than usual. So, I realized I had to do something. That night my young daughter showed me a sticker she'd gotten on her work in the 1st grade and that gave me an idea.

So, I purchased a bunch of paper stickers and also some 'puffy' stickers. And, I put up a board with the student's name on it. Then, in fun, I declared that since they acted like 1st graders they would be treated like 1st graders and would get a star on the board for being good and a sticker. 5 paper stickers and they'd get a puffy sticker.

I was HOPING that they would be insulted enough to straighten up without the incentives. But, they LOVED the idea. In fact, the students in the other grades (7 & 9) ALSO wanted to be able to earn stickers. I came close to going broke buying stickers and for the students their sticker covered notebooks were sources of pride.

We made it a fun thing by exaggerating why they got a sticker or not. "And, Do we get a sticker when we talk in class after I say quiet? N-o-o-o-o-oo-! And, THIS sticker would have looked GREAT on that notebook! But, n-o-o-o-o, it's not going to BE on that notebook is it." [:D]

It's very important to make it a slapstick type of thing. So, even NOT getting a sticker is part of the fun. But, still sends a message.

Would it work everywhere? No. But, it's amazing that everyone likes tangeble ways to measure how they are doing, no matter how old we are. [:D]

I ended up having to not only provide puffy stickers; but, puffy stickers with google eyes! [:D]



shadowspring -> RE: How to Teach/Parent/Discipline Troublesome Students (4/17/2008 11:34:24 AM)

To the OP,

Go to your public library and see what you can find from author Ruby K. Payne. She is an educator who has done extensive research in the area of public education and discipline, especially as it relates to children who are "problems" to our middle class public school systems.

I think you will find her books extremely helpful. My bro-in-law who teaches middle school science in Tampa enlightened me to this author's existence. [:)]



crankius -> RE: How to Teach/Parent/Discipline Troublesome Students (4/17/2008 12:43:52 PM)

Since you are the substitute, I can't imagine that the administration expects you to handle "extreme" disobedience like you are describing. You should be able to directly hand those children off to the administration, following the protocol of the school.

I've been a sub and I've been a regular classroom teacher. As a regular classroom teacher, I used to do what I called a Behavior Prevention Plan[sm=icon_smile.gif]. I followed all sorts of little tricks to keep things running along smoothly, with expectations set so that they really didn't have time or motive to misbehave. But a regular classroom teacher has an entirely different relationship with the students than a substitute teacher.

Questions:
Are you subbing in the same classroom each time, or a different classroom each time? Are you daily walking into a room of kids you don't know, or are you a regular and they recognize you and know your name?



lewbcw -> RE: How to Teach/Parent/Discipline Troublesome Students (4/17/2008 10:17:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 42servehymn

I wish I had words of advice for you but I'm sorry to say I don't. I just wanted to say how refreshing it is that you are looking for a way to reach these difficult kids instead of just writing them off as a lost cause. My youngest went through some difficult times in middle school. It was nothing like what you are dealing with but certainly difficult to us. I saw his teachers just decide that he wasn't worth the effort and just focus on their easier students. Once he got to high school he had one teacher in particular who refused to believe what he was trying to show her and instead saw who he really was and built on that. She was instrumental in him making changes in his behavior. Teachers such as yourself are a rare breed indeed. May God bless your efforts.


Hi 42,

Thank you so much for your kind words of encouragement. I am so glad your son was able to make positive changes through working with a caring teacher. Those are the exact stories that encourage so many teachers when the going gets rough. :) (I know I have to always remind myself that all of the little things we do add up to something in a person's life, even if they are small or take a while to take effect. So with every kid, there's always something - even if it is small - that you can contribute positively to in their life.)

lewbcw



lewbcw -> RE: How to Teach/Parent/Discipline Troublesome Students (4/17/2008 10:23:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: shadowspring

To the OP,

Go to your public library and see what you can find from author Ruby K. Payne. She is an educator who h


Thank you so much for the recommendation. I look forward to checking out her work! [:)]

Blessings,
lewbcw



lewbcw -> RE: How to Teach/Parent/Discipline Troublesome Students (4/17/2008 11:46:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: crankius

Since you are the substitute, I can't imagine that the administration expects you to handle "extreme" disobedience like you are describing. You should be able to directly hand those children off to the administration, following the protocol of the school.

I've been a sub and I've been a regular classroom teacher. As a regular classroom teacher, I used to do what I called a Behavior Prevention Plan[sm=icon_smile.gif]. I followed all sorts of little tricks to keep things running along smoothly, with expectations set so that they really didn't have time or motive to misbehave. But a regular classroom teacher has an entirely different relationship with the students than a substitute teacher.

Questions:
Are you subbing in the same classroom each time, or a different classroom each time? Are you daily walking into a room of kids you don't know, or are you a regular and they recognize you and know your name?


Hi Crankius,

Great to hear from an experienced teacher! [:)]

Yes, I do tend to teach at the same schools, but not the same classroom all the time. I started out substitute teaching last year and tried different schools and grade levels, but have now narrowed my teaching to specifically working with middle school kids at three specific schools (one of which has me on their preferred call list), making these assignments easier for me by having a student repoire. I know most of the students at two of the three schools I work at, but not so much with the third school. The two primary middle schools I substitute teach for, I am there probably two-three times a week and have gotten to know many of the kids. They do know me by name as well.

But as you mentioned, there is a definite difference in the relationship between the regular teacher and the students and that of the substitute; I feel limited in so many ways (but still feel I can do better).

The specific types of problem students I was referring to tend to vary in terms of how "bad" their behavior is and how the specific school administrators handle them. One of the schools I taught at for three weeks during a long-term sub assignment was particularly bad and frustrating to work at. When a student was surrounded and physically assualted (oddly enough, it was a male being assualted by four females), I had to call security and then ask for referall/conduct notice forms from another teacher. The teacher who gave me the forms was questioning whether I really needed them and then pulled me aside and said, "Let me give you some advice. You can write that up, but the Dean...he's not going to do anything about it. These kids just act that way and they don't do anything here." ...That type of response was frustrating and I could tell from the teacher's eyes and facial expression that she seemed frustrated herself. Her tone of voice was one of defeat. ...I later did find out that one of the students involved received absolutely no penalty at all, but am not sure of the cirumstances. I no longer work at that school, but the comment the teacher made to me always stuck in my mind, because there were countless other incidents like that that I witnessed in which it was considered "normal" or "typical" behavior to have fights and cursing without much penalty. ......The typical students at that particular middle school routinely told teachers (including myself) to "Shut up"...or "Get the f*#& out of my face"....or "F#^K off." At another school in the same district, I've had a student tell me he would punch me (for telling the 7th grader to term off his cell phone during an assignment, because the phones were not allowed and he was disrupting the class by chatting with his girlfriend I think it was). So these were the types of behavior I had trouble dealing with, because they were not as normal, nor frequent in the schools I attended growing up.

The normal procedure for most schools is to call security or the Dean when problems arise that the teacher cannot deal with, but depending on the particular school and how they handle things, some problems that I personally feel are bad are not considered that bad. So in essence, I am just forced to deal with them and have a troublesome student remain in my class. Most of the time, I am assured that the regular teacher will deal with the student(s) once they return and usually a call home is in order, but until then I have to keep the student(s) in class. (This is not always the case, but it happens often enough - usually every other day - that it does force me to learn new skills to deal with these types of kids.) Often it is only when a situation gets completely out of hand that the students are removed (which would usually involve a severe physical fight).

For me, it was difficult being sort of thrown into this environment, because the types of problems these students faced were nowhere near what I experienced growing up. The majority of my students are African American and I am not, and they also reside in a predominantly lower-income, urban area that is different from where I grew up (though I did attend a high school with a severe gang problem). What I have been noticing that has been the most troubling for me is how young so many of these students are, who have been engaging in such bad behavior. The kids often openly discuss their gang affiliations and beatings and fights they engaged in or witnessed over the weekend (often bragging about it) and openly speak of weapons at the middle school age (and even some as early as elementary). Many of them have parole officers as well. In some ways, these problems may explain why the one teacher I mentioned earlier tried to pull me aside and discourage me from even filling out the paper work on the assault in my class, because that may have been the least of their worries (as incidents of murder, robbery, teen pregnancy, and shootings are very common).

I hope I did not go on too long with my response. These were just a few of the issues I deal with as a substitute in my district and how some of the schools handle things (which are quite different from my own background and upbringing). I always look forward to getting feedback from other experienced parents and teachers, since I am still quite young myself and still learning. One thing I do realize, though, is that no matter what the circumstance, there is always something eternally and universally true about what God says in His wisdom in dealing with things, so that is why I am looking to gain a solid Christian perspective on everything as well! [:)]

-lewbcw



crankius -> RE: How to Teach/Parent/Discipline Troublesome Students (4/18/2008 11:11:39 AM)

I'm sure I'm not as experienced as some on here who are currently teaching, so I'm glad others are giving their wise input.

I'm very glad you don't sub at that other school anymore. As much as we all have a great desire to reach out to those kids, a weak administration puts everyone at risk. The kids stretch the boundaries because they can, and the teachers are very limited due to the lack of proper leadership from the administration. I've never been in a school as bad as you describe, but one high school I was at had quite a few troubles. Teachers learned to handle things on their own, because the administration wouldn't handle things at all.

Did your district provide training at all?

I hope you are able to read the books others suggested. I'll ponder this topic more and if I can think of anything specific and helpful I'll post it.



lewbcw -> RE: How to Teach/Parent/Discipline Troublesome Students (4/21/2008 10:58:35 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: crankius

Did your district provide training at all?

I hope you are able to read the books others suggested. I'll ponder this topic more and if I can think of anything specific and helpful I'll post it.


Hi Crankius,

Thank you again for your suggestions. It's been great to be able to bounce ideas off of others and see where God can reveal little nuggets of wisdom here and there. I am actually at the library today and will soon look up the books mentioned by others here.

In terms of teacher training, one of the unfortunate things about the district I teach in is that the training is extremely scarce and mostly voluntary (a total of two hours required before hiring - most of which is just filling out paper work and watching a 30 minute video on safetey and blood borne pathagens). I learned from a teacher, who taught in another district, that their subs are required to attend a six hour orientation, which is followed up by I believe another two or three days of weekend training. One lady described to me role playing type simulations they did of how to handle rowdy kids and extreme scenarios, which I thought would have been very useful for my situation. Their district seemed to be much more structured and in order. The school system I teach in just recently began offering voluntary training, but nothing that really covers the type of troublesome scenarios I described.

Part of me wonders whether the school administration does not want substitutes to know about these problems ahead of time, because they do not want to scare them away. In talking to many teachers and other substitutes, there is a very high turn-over rate amongst all teachers in the district. During lunch and duty breaks I have noticed that a lot of the chatter amongst teachers is on how bad everything is and how this teacher or that teacher is leaving. My own observations seem to confirm a lot of the teacher frustrations and high turn-over rate, as I have heard many times that teachers have left to "better" districts as soon as they could (or when they could not take it any longer). It's all very unfortunate, because many of the students suffer from a lack of continuity in those situations (e.g., one class at a middle school I taught in had 43 consecutive different substitutes, because the first year teacher left and no one could handle or wanted to teach the rowdy kids.). I wonder sometimes whether the administrators realize just how bad the situation is and whether they can actually do something about it? I do not think it is easy being an administrator either and wonder how they deal with these sorts of extreme, yet common disciplinary issues.

(By the way, I think there are a great number of other factors that tie into the problems I mentioned, but many of them seem out of the teachers' and administrators' control, such as family background, economics, and culture.)

lewbcw



doinkdom -> RE: How to Teach/Parent/Discipline Troublesome Students (4/21/2008 2:22:37 PM)

Here's a good resource book:

The Age of Opportunity: A Biblical Guide to Parenting Teens by Paul Tripp



42servehymn -> RE: How to Teach/Parent/Discipline Troublesome Students (4/25/2008 9:24:23 AM)

I just remembered something that my dear husband did with our son through that rough patch that we had with our son. Through what had to be divine intervention there was a well placed coffee shop right by my sons middle school. Each morning my husband and son would arrive early and go to that coffee shop. There were many mornings that my son was so hostile and angry but my patient husband would sit across from my stubbornly quiet son and he would read the paper and talk about what he was reading about. They did not discuss problems we were having with my son but just other things. It was a safe place for my son and husband to put aside their differences and just come together. Some days these were very pleasant get togethers. My husband was wise enough to remain upbeat and friendly regardless of my sons mood. They did this pretty much every day for my sons 8th grade year. When my son finally came around and became his old self again I could really see how those coffee breaks influenced my son. Also for one year I worked at my kids elementary school. I would have lunch with my son and 4 or 5 of his friends each day in my classroom. I was amazed at how much those kids would share during those lunches. I shared my experiences with the school psychologist who then started having lunch with groups of kids each day. I don't know if you could do something like this with the kids but they do seem to let their guard down when they are eating or drinking something and there is no pressure to share.



ballfieldmom -> RE: How to Teach/Parent/Discipline Troublesome Students (4/25/2008 6:58:52 PM)

Hello Lewbcw, I also work in a simlar enviorment, only as a lunch aide, but I have more patience with the behavioral children than the children with out issues. The children with out issues have little or no excuse(maybe a bad day here or there) to be acting out except to show off or act tough. It dosen't always work, but I just try to explain life's lesson as in a consequence always follows an action. I sometimes add a little to some stories or blend two stories into one to get my point across and then add a little touch of love in there. I also go home and forget what each child has done...sometimes I find a child on the wall saying can I get up now. I say huh? why are you there? they say you told me to yesterday, I say sure and add a big "good job listening!" I do walk a fine line though being in a public school...no need for futher explanation!! Good luck ballfield mom



lewbcw -> RE: How to Teach/Parent/Discipline Troublesome Students (5/6/2008 10:36:12 AM)

Hi Everyone,

I wanted to get an opinion on something I discussed with another teacher last week regarding a particular group of problematic students and how to work with them. The main strategy in question here was the appropriate use of positive reinforcement, which I will discuss in more detail throughout this post.

In giving me feedback on how to handle a specific class, this teacher mentioned that the class of eight students was very troublesome and that the entire sixth grade faculty knew of them. They were students who absolutely refused to do any school work, did not care whether they passed or failed, refused discipline, and had horrendous home lives/backgrounds (the stories were very heartbreaking to listen to for each child). Each of the kids sadly had irresponsible, absentee, and abusive caretakers and all of them lived in poverty with no positive resources, nor role models to draw upon; the school teachers prior to and up through their sixth grade year also had little impact on them as their records and history indicated constant discipline problems and poor academic performance. (In fairness, I have, in fact, had "worse" classes, but because these were sixth graders, perhaps the behavior and attitude of this group was a bit more extreme for their age. They were completely wild with no care for authority, nor school work on a test day.)

The teacher's response and comments to me were that rather than trying traditional discipline methods (because these were ignored by the children), the faculty shifted their focus to the use of positive reinforcement methods , along with frequent expressions of love and compassion. They found that no matter what they threatened the child with in terms of disciplinary consequences, the group of kids did not care to change their behavior. When they were told they needed to serve detention after school for cursing or fighting with another student, many of the children felt that was no different, if not better (qualitatively), than going home and being beaten or sexually abused by their caretaker(s). Some students preferred to be at school rather than at home, specifically to avoid their family life. Likewise, when the teachers discussed the consequences of laziness with their students and having to work at low-paying, unfulfilling jobs in their future, the kids felt that working at McDonald's was an improvement over their mother or father's welfare checks and complete lack of employment. Simply having a job was already good in the child's mind. The children's family lives were so depressed that the teachers essentially found they could not use negative deterrents to teach them, because no matter how they punished these kids, it was not worse (and possibly better) than what they experienced at home. She mentioned that those teachers who had tried traditional discipline found that it caused a "hate-hate" relationship, where both student and teacher "could not stand each other". I believe this was out of frustration from the child at being nagged and from the teacher seeing the ineffectiveness of traditional discipline methods on these kids. (A lot of the kids had very low self-esteem, which they felt was attacked and lowered even more each time the teachers disciplined or corrected them, so this led to increased resentment and hostility towards the teacher.) In response, the teachers' strategy was to use positive reinforcement and reward these children (instead of traditional discipline/punishment), as much as possible, for every good thing they did to try to get them to "do good" and to work with them on developing basic life skills at a different pace than the other school kids.

I wondered about this strategy and possibly the need to balance it with "regular" or "normal" discipline (at some point), which would still include punishment. I recognize that Scripture teaches us the need to discipline our kids to show them right and wrong and the consequences of our actions, yet I also find what the teachers are doing to be very loving and helpful to the kids as well.

Is it ok to teach the kids with an alternative method? And if we use this method, how do we balance it with discipline/punishment? Part of me feels that these kids need psychological counseling and lots of love even before they can be "normal," healthy participants in society and the classroom, and so I wonder as a teacher how to work with them? Do we give them a kind of "grace period" or different standard than the other kids? That has seemed to be the strategy the sixth grade faculty have adopted at this particular school. They say that they no longer punish the kids for their inappropriate remarks and constant fighting (as the kids would literally be suspended every day and put out of school), but instead try to use mostly positive reinforcement - though I am guessing they do punish them in extreme cases of misbehavior. But essentially, they have created a different set of rules for these particular kids (they let things "slide" a bit more easily).

This was not unlike the story I mentioned in my earlier post, where a teacher advised me not to write up an assault report in my class, because the Dean would not do anything about it and there were bigger problems than these regular or "common" occurences, but with this teacher, she went a step further and referred to the use of positive reinforcement as their teaching and discipline strategy. Whereas, the other teacher in the assault case, did not offer me that advice and alternative program.

What are parents' and teachers' thoughts on this? I know that positive reinforcement is taught commonly as one of many strategies to use in the classroom and parenting, but using it as a primary strategy with the kids I mentioned above....is that a good approach?

Thank you all again for your comments and thoughts so far. I look foward to future dialogue with everyone.

Blessings,
lewbcw [:)]



lewbcw -> RE: How to Teach/Parent/Discipline Troublesome Students (5/6/2008 11:38:30 AM)

As an addendum to my most recent post, I wanted to clarify that the teachers using positive reinforcement in this particular situation do not entirely discard punishment and warnings (and explanations of right and wrong), but seem to have greater tolerance and understanding of misbehavior and try to redirect their energies from warning and scolding these particular students to reminding them of the rewards for better behavior.

I do see that they still try to tell a child why something is right and why something is wrong, but because there are so many outbursts with this group of kids, rather than getting upset every minute, they try to do more reminders of positive rewards for positive behavior and encourage them more than correct them. (Essentially, it seems more like greater forgiveness.)

Hope that made sense. [:)]



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