RE: Merciless God makes people do his dirty work?

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WesP -> RE: Merciless God makes people do his dirty work? (4/9/2008 8:45:00 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bluethread quote: ORIGINAL: WesSavedByGrace I have read through the posts, but I have not seen something I thought would be here. Forgive me if I missed it. Many things that happened in the OT were reinforcing the fact that following the law was an impossibility. There were severe punishments for adultery, sorcery, etc. The severity of punishments in the OT underscored just how bad those sins were against God. In the NT, those sins are still considered abominations, but through faith and repentance, we now have the blood of Christ to cleanse us. This was not present in the OT, thus sacrifices were made. However, they were repeated because they were unable to stand for all sins. Heb 10:3 But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins, 4 because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. The sacrifices were never intended to take away sin. They are meant to be an act of faith in the repentance process, forcing us to recognize the consequences of our actions. The blood of The Pesach(Sacrifice Lamb), that is Yeshua Ha Meshiach(Jesus the Messiah) cleaned the Patriarchs just as it cleanses us now, by faith. Thus made acceptable to Adonai, we are granted the privilige taking part in the developement of His community. Some may see some aspects of Adonai's social structures as cruel, but is our secular humanist society any better? Right. It was symbolic but expressive of faith in God. Thanks for the clarification.

restored08 -> RE: Merciless God makes people do his dirty work? (4/9/2008 10:54:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: victorwyant I have been a Christian for 10 years, and have read the entire Bible twice. In the past, I have always "glossed over" the more difficult OT passages dealing with God's wrath, dismissing them as "something funky in the OT dealing with Israel". But now, I am troubled because God's character seems very inconsistent with that of Jesus Christ. Reading the bible and understanding it are two entirely different things. And to get understanding you have to let the Holy Spirit do His job. He is the revealer and the one that gives knowledge of what scripture means. God's character cannot be inconsistent with that of Christ because they are one in the same spirit. We all, including Christ, was made in His image. When something or someone is made in your image you have, in some aspects, their ways, looks, and characteristics. Specifically, Exodus 32:27 and Numbers 15:32 (plus or minus a few versus to get context) are troubling me most at the moment. Here are the issues which I have been unable to answer: 1) why God decides to kill these individuals? Is death really necessary, and more importantly, is this really consistent with his character (especially in the case of the wood gatherer). Would Jesus have killed them? We are all God's children. Think about your child. If your child was continually disobedient to your words and rules wouldn't you discipline them in some form. We are put on this earth to live and die. To live is to choose to live God's way and to die is not to. 2) not only does God decide to kill them, but he doesn't even appear to have the fortitude to do it himself. He makes the Levites do his dirty work in Exodus, and the whole community in Numbers. He then rewards the Levites for this slaughter by making them priests! Yikes! Trying to reconcile this, I think about Jesus, and can't imagine the parallel........imagine if upon seeing the moneychangers in the temple, Jesus says to the disciples "pick up your swords and slay them!" No way! But that's EXACTLY what it appears God is doing here in these OT passages. In the golden calf story, God could have commanded Moses to have the rebels leave, not to be a part of the community any longer, or, if death was necessary, he could have killed them himself instead of making the Levites do it. As for the guy gathering wood, give me break! Maybe a stern reminder, but death!?!? And even if death was to be the punishment, once again, God could have done it himself rather than making the people do it. How many stern reminders do you give your child before finally punishing him or her? ---in the process of trying to make sense of this, I've come across a few other OT passages which seem even more egregious, but I'll try to take this a small chunk at a time, so I'll focus just on these two for now. What is going on with this????? Do you not beleive that when a law is given, you have to follow them? Do you not believe that when under someone in authority, you have to be submissive to them? You have to believe these things. If you don't, I can't imagine you being a parent, being employed with supervisors over you or even being obedient to the laws of public transportation.

perfectWeakness129 -> RE: Merciless God makes people do his dirty work? (4/9/2008 7:27:43 PM)
Ugh. Why do people do this fly-by posting of topics with loaded questions and then show no interest in response. Are you looking for an answer? or are you trying to push a certain agenda? If you look a this post again, let me know.

CherishedbyGod -> RE: Merciless God makes people do his dirty work? (4/9/2008 8:07:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: perfectWeakness129 Ugh. Why do people do this fly-by posting of topics with loaded questions and then show no interest in response. Are you looking for an answer? or are you trying to push a certain agenda? If you look a this post again, let me know. As far as I could tell, there was no sincere inquiring...That is why I saw yellow lights flashing from the beginning... It seemed an absolute dump on the Character of God, to me....

Prairiehiker -> RE: Merciless God makes people do his dirty work? (4/9/2008 10:52:06 PM)
. [/quote] As far as I could tell, there was no sincere inquiring...That is why I saw yellow lights flashing from the beginning... It seemed an absolute dump on the Character of God, to me.... [/quote] This is harsh. What if the peson forgot about the thread. I've done that...create a thread, follow it for a few days then forget all about it. Let's not be harsh to the poster who's struggling with an honest question.

perfectWeakness129 -> RE: Merciless God makes people do his dirty work? (4/10/2008 2:51:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Prairiehiker quote: As far as I could tell, there was no sincere inquiring...That is why I saw yellow lights flashing from the beginning... It seemed an absolute dump on the Character of God, to me.... This is harsh. What if the peson forgot about the thread. I've done that...create a thread, follow it for a few days then forget all about it. Let's not be harsh to the poster who's struggling with an honest question. I strive to be sensitive to struggling believer or even seekers. I was one once myself and I think it the upmost importance to discuss and confess struggle in faith. However, as of this posting, the original poster only has ONE post in the entire Forum. Seems like a bomb-thrower at least by the evidence. Attacking the character of God.

victorwyant -> RE: Merciless God makes people do his dirty work? (4/12/2008 6:59:08 PM)
to all who have responded: thank you for taking time to help me with this difficult biblical topic. to the moderator: thank you for helping get the post focused back on my original two questions. pertaining to the original questions: 1) why would God pronounce death for these two scenarios (idolatry with the golden calf and gathering fuelwood on the sabbath) ? DVFISH's response is most thoughtful and genuine. It's the best explanation so far, simply stating that Jesus and Jehovah, although one in a sense, are different in their dealings with sinful humans. Unfortunately, it troubles me more because it makes the triune God appear to be some sort of divine schizophrenic, and I have placed all my life's confidence in this God. I know this sounds ridiculous to think of God as such, but to the objective observer it appears this way...........God's command to stone a man for gathering wood on the Sabbath is as about as far away from the personality of Jesus as it seems one could get. I have been reading lately Jesus' sermon on the mount in parallel with these OT passages, and they appear as different from each other as night is from day. Some thoughts so far: At the time of execution of the 3000, there were still some of Israel who remained faithful. Simply banishing the violators might have allowed for them to continue to dissuade the faithful, and perhaps human sacrifice as religious expression was just around the corner. Or maybe the hardening of the hearts of the entire nation to the point of making repentance impossible would have become a reality if the 3000 had been spared. Maybe the potential for violence existed (see more below), and without this judgment the entire nation would have just wiped itself out, and by doing so would have also wiped out the seed of Christ. Just some thoughts, I have to confess that none of them are completely satisfying, but I think I'm making progress. As for the guy gathering wood, nothing's coming to me. Seems like all he should have had to do would have been a sin offering as prescribed in ceremonial law? Gotta' be more to this story than what is recorded in Numbers. I can't find any cross-references to the story, and a google search didn't come up with much exposition on this passage. 2) why would God instruct people to carry out His death sentence? DAVEW and VCO pointed out the Ananias and Sapphira incident. Good point that God has chosen to enact strict judgment even post-resurrection and post-Holy Spirt indwelling. But a VERY IMPORTANT difference exists between Acts 5 and the OT passages I am struggling with. Note that in Acts 5 God enacts the judgment himself. He doesn't instruct the apostles nor the laypeople to do it. In Exodus, He instructs the leadership to kill, and in Numbers, the whole community to stone the man. It is this issue, more than that of question 1, which troubles me most. If God chooses to execute someone, He is justified in doing so, although he runs the risk of alienating His children if He doesn't reveal a rationale that makes sense. But to command a whole community to execute someone for the modern equivalent of a misdemeanor, this befuddles and frightens me because this is not at all like the God who has been so gracious to me, so forgiving, so patient, and so encouraging for the last 10 years. Maybe in the Exodus case we have a safety issue for those who were trying to remain faithful to God? Perhaps it was not just worshiping the calf and sexual impropriety, but maybe also there was violence towards the faithful, in which case we would have a case of them defending themselves? For both questions, perhaps there is some hermeneutical information to bear on these passages which helps to offer more explanation? I did a little bit of research on this, and found the following: - different word for kill in Ex. 32 vs. in the 10 commandments. Ratsch (kill) is forbidden by the 10 commandments, but the Levites were instructed to harag (kill) in Ex. 32. Looks like the difference is between predatory killing vs. something akin to capital punishment. As for Numbers 15, it's ragam, which is to kill by stoning......I haven't been able to determine if this is a form of ratsch or harag, but probably more similar to harag. more on the different words for kill in OT: http://www.tektonics.org/lp/nokilling.html http://www.milwaukeechurchofchrist.com/default.aspx?pageid=2397 http://www.adventistreview.org/2003-1550/story4.html Perhaps there are some more hermeneutical clues? There are countless scriptures OT and NT which give accounts of God's mercy and grace, and these are the stories which draw me to God, which make me want to trust my entire being to him, and which have caused me to do so. But these accounts do not satisfy my questions above. If God is perfect, if I can count on him completely as God and not just a human companion, then there must not even be one blemish on his character, his record. I can't make things right just by wishing away what looks like a blemish. I need to discover a purpose to the events and God's actions which align with his character in order to dismiss the concern. to those who have rallied to my aid expounding on the great importance of searching out the truth regardless of how offensive it may seem to ourselves and others...........may God bless you for your integrity. My pursuit is that of the truth. To blindly accept that someone's character is flawless in the face of something which appears to the contrary is to bury one's head in the sand. To dismiss these questions which arise in our hearts at times is to be dishonest with both ourselves and God. We are actually commended by Paul for being honest with God and each other about these questions which arise (read about his compliment to the Bereans). If God is perfect in truth and in love, then He is not worried about my questioning, nor will He punish me for it. I once thought as CherisedbyGod does, that it was sort of disrespectful or unholy to question God on these apparently conflicting passages. As my relationship with Him has matured, as it has become more intimate, I have come to realize that God does not want me to make excuses for Him when something arises that appears to challenge His character, but rather to ask Him about it and to plead for Him to make sense of it all to settle my heart. Here is an analogy which helped me to have courage to confront my Savior with these types of questions, and which may help believers non-believers with this. Imagine that you marry someone whom you have known for years, and who has demonstrated the love of Christ to you in so many ways. His/her character is flawed like all humans, but he/she is so transparent with you, so genuine and authentic. You have shared your deepest thoughts with each other, and you have come to realize that there is complete safety in being vulnerable with this person. He/she never lies to you, is always forgiving and patient with you and others. Then one day, you read a newspaper article describing something this person did long ago which is horrific by any rationale thinking person's standards, and certainly by the standard exemplified by Christ. If you love this person and cherish his/her love for you, wouldn't you ask him/her about the article? Wouldn't you want more than anything in the world to know whether or not the event really happened, and if so that there was a good reason for his/her actions? And wouldn't it be critical for you to know this if the intimacy of this relationship is to continue? I think so. To not ask is not to care about the relationship. What would you think if the wife in this married couple were a close friend of yours, and the newspaper article was about the husband. You ask your friend about the article, and she says "oh, but he's my husband, and I just have to trust him". what would you think about the health of that relationship? Our relationship with God is far more intimate than that of a marriage, and so the openness between us and God should be far more than that of a marriage as well. If I question God about this and He doesn't want me to know enough of the reason to have my heart settled and remain confident in His goodness, then that would mean that intimacy with me isn't very important to Him, and I don't believe that. The title of this post is not to say I believe God is merciless and makes people do His dirty work, but rather that there are scriptures which make this appear to be so, therefore these passages deserve intense investigation in order to discover the real truth and be able to lead others to that same truth.

Godhead -> RE: Merciless God makes people do his dirty work? (4/12/2008 8:15:51 PM)
We all deserve death for disobeying God. He is supreme ruler of all creation and has the right to execute punishment upon those in whom He wills. It is madness an folly to question His will in anything. Think yourself lucky that He sent his only begotten Son to be executed in your place. And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is your mina, which I have kept in a handkerchief. For I feared you, because you are a harsh man. You take up what you did not lay down, and you reap what you did not sow. And he said to him, I will judge you out of your own mouth, wicked servant! You knew that I was a harsh man, taking up what I had not laid down and reaping what I did not sow. (Luk 19:20-22) God is supreme ruler of all things, what kind of ruler would he be if He let His subjects rebel and scoff at His divine sovereignty. We must view God for what He is, just be thankful that He punished His Son instead of you. That way He has given you a chance to be saved, your only chance! I would call that a great mercy.

VCO -> RE: Merciless God makes people do his dirty work? (4/12/2008 8:48:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: victorwyant to all who have responded: thank you for taking time to help me with this difficult biblical topic. . . . 2) why would God instruct people to carry out His death sentence? . . . If God chooses to execute someone, He is justified in doing so, . . . If God is perfect, if I can count on him completely as God and not just a human companion, then there must not even be one blemish on his character, his record. I can't make things right just by wishing away what looks like a blemish. I need to discover a purpose to the events and God's actions which align with his character in order to dismiss the concern. . . . U&U Romans 6:23 (NKJV) 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. {"eternal life" is a GIFT, NOT something owed to us, NOT something we have earned, and NOT something we even Deserve} Romans 3:12 (NASB) 12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE." Isaiah 53:6 (NASB) 6 All of us like sheep have gone astray, Each of us has turned to his own way; But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all To fall on Him. Ephesians 2:1-5 (NIV) 1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions--it is by grace you have been saved. ANOTHER FACTOR YOU MAY BE OVER-LOOKING, is Satan is temporarily ruler of this world, and God occasionally permits Him to go FAR, as HE did with JOB: John 16:11 (GW) 11 He will convince the world that God judges it, because the ruler of this world has been judged. Satan Allowed to Test Job Job 1:6-22 (NASB) 6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them. 7 The LORD said to Satan, "From where do you come?" Then Satan answered the LORD and said, "From roaming about on the earth and walking around on it." 8 The LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, fearing God and turning away from evil." 9 Then Satan answered the LORD, "Does Job fear God for nothing? 10 "Have You not made a hedge about him and his house and all that he has, on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. 11 "But put forth Your hand now and touch all that he has; he will surely curse You to Your face." 12 Then the LORD said to Satan, "Behold, all that he has is in your power, only do not put forth your hand on him." So Satan departed from the presence of the LORD. 13 Now on the day when his sons and his daughters were eating and drinking wine in their oldest brother's house, 14 a messenger came to Job and said, "The oxen were plowing and the donkeys feeding beside them, 15 and the Sabeans attacked and took them. They also slew the servants with the edge of the sword, and I alone have escaped to tell you." 16 While he was still speaking, another also came and said, "The fire of God fell from heaven and burned up the sheep and the servants and consumed them, and I alone have escaped to tell you." 17 While he was still speaking, another also came and said, "The Chaldeans formed three bands and made a raid on the camels and took them and slew the servants with the edge of the sword, and I alone have escaped to tell you." 18 While he was still speaking, another also came and said, "Your sons and your daughters were eating and drinking wine in their oldest brother's house, 19 and behold, a great wind came from across the wilderness and struck the four corners of the house, and it fell on the young people and they died, and I alone have escaped to tell you." 20 Then Job arose and tore his robe and shaved his head, and he fell to the ground and worshiped. 21 He said, "Naked I came from my mother's womb, And naked I shall return there. The LORD gave and the LORD has taken away. Blessed be the name of the LORD." 22 Through all this Job did not sin nor did he blame God.

victorwyant -> RE: Merciless God makes people do his dirty work? (4/12/2008 9:43:52 PM)
The questions I am wrestling with are not answered simply by me acknowledging that I am unworthy of God's mercy and grace. I know that I am a sinner, and that God has been good to me in countless ways. But just because I am sinful, and because God been so gracious as to provide me with salvation through Jesus Christ, doesn't explain the issues surrounding His character in the passages I am dealing with here. In the past that's how I dealt with these passages........"oh well, whatever God was like then, it doesn't matter now, because Jesus has come and He's good to me". Nope, that's not going to cut it. To paraphrase your response, it's basically saying "hey, God's been good to you when you didn't deserve it, so why should you gripe if God acts in a way that seems contrary to His character towards someone else?" It matters greatly, for to remain wholeheartedly dedicated to someone and to desire to continue bowing humbly at their feet in worship (in other words, to continue believing that this individual is the One benevolent God), requires that one believes that this individual's character is good, and that this character is unwavering, 100% consistent. The passages I am referring to seem to indicate an inconsistency in God's character, at least if Jesus and God are one. The thought of God having inconsistent character qualities is appalling to me, and so I continue to study these passages with much ferver praying to God for understanding. quote: ORIGINAL: Godhead We all deserve death for disobeying God. He is supreme ruler of all creation and has the right to execute punishment upon those in whom He wills. It is madness an folly to question His will in anything. Think yourself lucky that He sent his only begotten Son to be executed in your place. And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is your mina, which I have kept in a handkerchief. For I feared you, because you are a harsh man. You take up what you did not lay down, and you reap what you did not sow. And he said to him, I will judge you out of your own mouth, wicked servant! You knew that I was a harsh man, taking up what I had not laid down and reaping what I did not sow. (Luk 19:20-22) God is supreme ruler of all things, what kind of ruler would he be if He let His subjects rebel and scoff at His divine sovereignty. We must view God for what He is, just be thankful that He punished His Son instead of you. That way He has given you a chance to be saved, your only chance! I would call that a great mercy.

victorwyant -> RE: Merciless God makes people do his dirty work? (4/12/2008 9:54:36 PM)
[quote]ORIGINAL: restored08 Do you not beleive that when a law is given, you have to follow them? Do you not believe that when under someone in authority, you have to be submissive to them? You have to believe these things. If you don't, I can't imagine you being a parent, being employed with supervisors over you or even being obedient to the laws of public transportation. _____________________________ Titus 3:3 "For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another." Sure I believe in law and authority. Do you believe every time someone breaks any law that the rest of society should gather around and stone him/her to death? If so, then you and I have fundamental differences in our view of mercy. If not, then perhaps you, like me, have difficulty in squaring the events of Numbers 15 with the merciful love the Holy Spirit has placed in our hearts. And if that be the case, then perhaps we can put our minds together and discover some blessing in a truth that God would like to reveal to us.

VCO -> RE: Merciless God makes people do his dirty work? (4/13/2008 4:37:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: victorwyant The questions I am wrestling with are not answered simply by me acknowledging that I am unworthy of God's mercy and grace. I know that I am a sinner, and that God has been good to me in countless ways. But just because I am sinful, and because God been so gracious as to provide me with salvation through Jesus Christ, doesn't explain the issues surrounding His character in the passages I am dealing with here. . . . U&U The problem is you are holding a human yard stick up to GOD. We human beings tend to think of character terms as good, better, best; or the opposite way as bad, badder, worst evil. GOD says one sin, NO MATTER HOW SMALL WE THINK IT IS, is worthy of physical death AND eternity in Hell. He even says in Isa. 64:6 that ALL OF OUR RIGHTEOUS ACTS are nothing more than a pile of filthy rags, and the word rags in the original language is very specifically a reference to soiled rags used for feminine hygene. We therefore in human terms are defining "godly character" in human terms of what we think a good human being is, and then taking that human yard stick and saying, "God does not messure up to my standards."; when it is WE who are not messuring up to God's standards. GOD is PERFECTLY HOLY AND PERFECTLY JUST AT THE SAME TIME. To FAIL TO CARRY OUT PERFECT JUSTICE, would be sin on God's part. So we are back to "Why has God NOT carried out His PERFECT JUSTICE on us?" BECAUSE SOMEONE ELSE HAS PAID THE PRICE FOR OUR SIN. If one rejects Jesus Christ as Lord, he is also rejecting the Price Christ PAID for his or her sin, and remains WORTHY of the FULL WRATH OF A HOLY GOD. John 3:36 (NIV) 36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him." Ephesians 5:1-7 (NKJV) 1 Therefore be imitators of God as dear children. 2 And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma. 3 But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; 4 neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not be partakers with them. Romans 13:1-7 (NKJV) 1 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. 4 For he is God's minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. 5 Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience' sake. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God's ministers attending continually to this very thing. 7 Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor. Romans 3:10-12 (NASB) 10 as it is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE; 11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD; 12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE." We really NEED to view our sin from God's eyes! We too DESERVE the full blunt of God's WRATH; and that is EXACTLY what Jesus TOOK for us. Mark 15:34 (NASB) 34 At the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, "ELOI, ELOI, LAMA SABACHTHANI?" which is translated, "MY GOD, MY GOD, WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME?" 2 Corinthians 5:21 (NKJV) 21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. May I suggest, Stand at the foot of the cross in your mind's eye for an hour. Look up and WATCH the pain and agony HE is enduring for your peronal sins. UNDERSTAND that each sin you have ever committed is like hanging another one pound weight on each of His forarms, pulling down on those nails. As you WATCH, notice the blood dripping from those nail wounds at the base of His hands. WATCH as HIS blood falls splashing on your arms. KNOW He is PAYING THE PRICE for your sins. FEEL that warm holy Blood cleanse your sins from your whole body! CRY AND WEEP, but above all THANK HIM for taking your place on that Cross. My guess is, then and only then will you understand, how HOLY, how JUST, how LOVING, how GRACIOUS, and how MERCIFUL our God truly is.

iSERVEaJEW -> RE: Merciless God makes people do his dirty work? (4/13/2008 5:12:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: victorwyant I have been a Christian for 10 years, and have read the entire Bible twice. In the past, I have always "glossed over" the more difficult OT passages dealing with God's wrath, dismissing them as "something funky in the OT dealing with Israel". But now, I am troubled because God's character seems very inconsistent with that of Jesus Christ. Specifically, Exodus 32:27 and Numbers 15:32 (plus or minus a few versus to get context) are troubling me most at the moment. Here are the issues which I have been unable to answer: 1) why God decides to kill these individuals? Is death really necessary, and more importantly, is this really consistent with his character (especially in the case of the wood gatherer). Would Jesus have killed them? 2) not only does God decide to kill them, but he doesn't even appear to have the fortitude to do it himself. He makes the Levites do his dirty work in Exodus, and the whole community in Numbers. He then rewards the Levites for this slaughter by making them priests! Yikes! Trying to reconcile this, I think about Jesus, and can't imagine the parallel........imagine if upon seeing the moneychangers in the temple, Jesus says to the disciples "pick up your swords and slay them!" No way! But that's EXACTLY what it appears God is doing here in these OT passages. In the golden calf story, God could have commanded Moses to have the rebels leave, not to be a part of the community any longer, or, if death was necessary, he could have killed them himself instead of making the Levites do it. As for the guy gathering wood, give me break! Maybe a stern reminder, but death!?!? And even if death was to be the punishment, once again, God could have done it himself rather than making the people do it. ---in the process of trying to make sense of this, I've come across a few other OT passages which seem even more egregious, but I'll try to take this a small chunk at a time, so I'll focus just on these two for now. What is going on with this????? Yes, our Master would have killed them. Remember, He is God and He will be returning again to destroy everyone who has opposed Him. It will be a terrible day for those who have decided to live a life that mocks Him. Not only will He destroy them, but He will laugh while He does it. To see our Messiah is to see God. He is loving, patient, and merciful. However, He also loves justice and will punish and destroy those who oppose Him.

meerkat -> RE: Merciless God makes people do his dirty work? (4/14/2008 4:53:12 AM)
victorwyant, I have been doing a lot of searching regarding hell and punishment and have come to the conclusion that God is a just God and also a merciful God. The message that comes across in the bible to me is that to be alive in the spirit the flesh must die. It is not just a head belief that saves it is a trusting belief and following Jesus and walking in the spirit. I think the wrath of God is against the flesh. The wages of sin is death. 1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: All have sinned and come short of the glory of God God is a consuming fire In the NT Paul says that we are to crucify the flesh 1Pe 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. Just some additional thoughts :- I think hell and the lake of fire are 2 different concepts (in Revelation hell and death are thrown into the lake of fire so they can't be the same thing) Is the lake of fire the judgement of the flesh? Also pertaining to this a question that has occurred to me is with the resurrection of the damned are they resurrected then damned or damned (judged) in the flesh then resurrected in the spirit?

Godhead -> RE: Merciless God makes people do his dirty work? (4/14/2008 6:47:35 PM)
And you shall not lie carnally with your neighbor's wife, to defile yourself with her. And you shall not let any of your seed pass through the fire to Molech, neither shall you profane the name of your God. I am Jehovah. You shall not lie with mankind as with womankind. It is abomination to God. And you shall not lie with any animal to defile yourself with it. And a woman shall not stand before an animal to lie down to it. It is a perversion. Do not defile yourselves in any of these things. For in all these the nations are defiled, which I cast out before you. And the land is defiled. Therefore I visit its wickedness on it, and the land itself vomits out those who live in it. You shall therefore keep My statutes and My judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations, neither the native, nor any stranger that lives among you. For the men of the land who were before you have done all these abominations, and the land is defiled. You shall not do these so that the land may not spew you out also when you defile it, as it spewed out the nations that were before you. For whoever shall commit any of these abominations, even the souls who commit them shall be cut off from among their people. And you shall keep My ordinance, so as not to do any of these abominable customs which were committed before you, and that you do not defile yourselves in them. I am Jehovah your God. (Lev 18:20-30) There you have the reasons why God had destroyed those people. Look at the terrible sins that they were doing. The body was made for the Lord and not for such terrible things. They showed such contempt for God's Holy Temple. "For whoever shall commit any of these abominations, even the souls who commit them shall be cut off from among their people."

VCO -> RE: Merciless God makes people do his dirty work? (4/15/2008 2:58:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Godhead . . . There you have the reasons why God had destroyed those people. Look at the terrible sins that they were doing. . . U&U There is a perfect example of how we view sin differently than GOD does. We think of their sins as more terrible than ours. NO,THAT IS NOT HOW GOD SEES SIN. Our sins, {NO MATTER HOW SMALL WE THINK THEY ARE}, are EQUALLY TERRIBLE is God's sight. We think "Jeffrey Dahmer committed HORRIBLE sins!" God thinks, "Each sin, including bad thoughts and sins of omittion, are EQUALLY as HORRIBLE as those of Jeffrey Dahmer!" James 2:10-11 (GW) 10 If someone obeys all of God's laws except one, that person is guilty of breaking all of them. 11 After all, the one who said, �Never commit adultery,� is the same one who said, �Never murder.� If you do not commit adultery but you murder, you become a person who disobeys God's laws. Hebrews 10:30-31 (GW) 30 We know the God who said, �I alone have the right to take revenge. I will pay back.� God also said, �The Lord will judge his people.� 31 Falling into the hands of the living God is a terrifying thing.

Bluethread -> RE: Merciless God makes people do his dirty work? (4/16/2008 6:28:48 PM)
quote: victorwyant: Unfortunately, it troubles me more because it makes the triune God appear to be some sort of divine schizophrenic, and I have placed all my life's confidence in this God. This is the risk of the tridentine view of Adonai. If one tries too hard to define Adonai, one can be forced into seeing contradictive behavior. I believe you see Adonai Elohiem, called The Father, as too cruel and Adonai Yeshua, called The Son, as too accomodating. The stoning of the man gathering wood shows us how seriously Adonai takes the keeping of Shabbat. The reason we took part in the execution is three fold. First, we (Adam) have been give authority over the earth and, therefore, are responsible for what takes place here. Second, if the witnesses bare false witness they are subject to the same condemnation as the accused. These witnesses begin the execution and therefore with their own hands attest to what they saw at the risk of their own lives. Third, we learn by doing. If we as acommunity take part in the execution of the wrong doer , we will bw less likely to do it ourselves. Now, if you look at the system with it's safeguards and its effect on society, and compare that to the system of justice in the USA, I believe it is clear that Adonai's society is far superior to that of the USA. Also, many believe that Yeshua softened the mitzvot(good deeds) of Adonai. I contend that Yeshua clarified how those mitzvot should have been understood, which in many cases shows us that we have been too leniant.

DaveW -> RE: Merciless God makes people do his dirty work? (4/17/2008 2:47:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: VCO We think of their sins as more terrible than ours. NO,THAT IS NOT HOW GOD SEES SIN. Our sins, {NO MATTER HOW SMALL WE THINK THEY ARE}, are EQUALLY TERRIBLE is God's sight. We think "Jeffrey Dahmer committed HORRIBLE sins!" God thinks, "Each sin, including bad thoughts and sins of omittion, are EQUALLY as HORRIBLE as those of Jeffrey Dahmer!" On what basis do you put those word's into HIS mouth???? I know of nowhere that is ever stated in the bible. Indeed, Jesus tells Pilate that he who was the betrayer (Judas) had committed the greater sin.

VCO -> RE: Merciless God makes people do his dirty work? (4/18/2008 3:30:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DaveW quote: ORIGINAL: VCO We think of their sins as more terrible than ours. NO,THAT IS NOT HOW GOD SEES SIN. Our sins, {NO MATTER HOW SMALL WE THINK THEY ARE}, are EQUALLY TERRIBLE is God's sight. We think "Jeffrey Dahmer committed HORRIBLE sins!" God thinks, "Each sin, including bad thoughts and sins of omittion, are EQUALLY as HORRIBLE as those of Jeffrey Dahmer!" On what basis do you put those word's into HIS mouth???? I know of nowhere that is ever stated in the bible. Indeed, Jesus tells Pilate that he who was the betrayer (Judas) had committed the greater sin. U&U James 2:10 (GW) 10 If someone obeys all of God's laws except one, that person is guilty of breaking all of them. Romans 2:6-11 (ISV) 6 For he will repay everyone according to what that person has done: 7 eternal life to those who strive for glory, honor, and immortality by patiently doing good; 8 but wrath and fury for those who in their selfish pride refuse to believe the truth and practice wickedness instead. 9 There will be suffering and anguish for every person who practices doing evil, for Jews first and for Greeks as well. 10 But there will be glory, honor, and peace for every person who practices doing good, for Jews first and for Greeks as well. 11 For God does not show partiality. Matthew 5:28 (GW) 28 But I can guarantee that whoever looks with lust at a woman has already committed adultery in his heart. Matthew 5:21-22 (HCSB) 21 �You have heard that it was said to our ancestors, Do not murder, and whoever murders will be subject to judgment. 22 But I tell you, everyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. And whoever says to his brother, �Fool!� will be subject to the Sanhedrin. But whoever says, �You moron!� will be subject to hellfire. Revelation 20:15 (NKJV) 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

DaveW -> RE: Merciless God makes people do his dirty work? (4/18/2008 6:29:23 AM)
You have adequately pointed out that God punishes sin and that all sins are bad. However you have not made the case that all sins are equal. That is what I am asking you to prove.

VCO -> RE: Merciless God makes people do his dirty work? (4/19/2008 12:28:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DaveW You have adequately pointed out that God punishes sin and that all sins are bad. However you have not made the case that all sins are equal. That is what I am asking you to prove. U&U Yes I did! Read the verses again. A bad thought makes one GUILTY of breaking HOW MANY OF GOD's LAWS? The Same number as Jeffrey Dahmer broke. Looking with lust is EQUAL to the deed of adultery. Hating is EQUAL to the deed of Murder. ALL who reject Christ as Lord, and the price He paid for our sins, RECEIVE the EQUAL punishment of eternity in HELL.

DaveW -> RE: Merciless God makes people do his dirty work? (4/21/2008 7:06:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: VCO ALL who reject Christ as Lord, and the price He paid for our sins, RECEIVE the EQUAL punishment of eternity in HELL. Do they? Is that what Jesus said? Mat 10:14 "Whoever does not receive you, nor heed your words, as you go out of that house or that city, shake the dust off your feet. Mat 10:15 "Truly I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city. Mat 11:21 "Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles had occurred in Tyre and Sidon which occurred in you, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. Mat 11:22 "Nevertheless I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you.

ta_mosquito -> RE: Merciless God makes people do his dirty work? (4/21/2008 11:01:05 AM)
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