Aliens and Ghosts? (Full Version)

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vixir -> Aliens and Ghosts? (3/31/2008 8:02:11 PM)

I'm not sure if this is in the right forum, but I tried looking elsewhere and this seemed to fit my topic the best.

I was watching videos on YouTube (via-Sumble!) one night when I was pretty bored. And sometimes I like to watch videos with "proof" of ghosts, since I'm not sure what to think concerning them. While I stumbled through the Paranormal topic, I came across a supposed UFO abduction caught on a security camera. After viewing that video and a few "ghost sightings", I started wondering what or who they are. What are your views concerning ghosts and/or aliens? I haven't read a whole lot of the bible (even though I should), but the parts that I did read didn't mention aliens or ghosts. I do recall somewhere (and I can't remember where), that those who have been saved prior to their death, go to heaven. But if my memory serves me right (which I really can't rely too much on, heh... I have a horrible memory), it doesn't state what happens to the souls of those who are non-believers. So my theory is that the souls of those who are not saved, are the ghosts that some people see and have caught on camera. I don't know, because some people say that they've seen ghosts of little children, and if that's true, then my theory is void. But they're just my thoughts. What is your opinion of these two subjects?



rebelyell -> RE: Aliens and Ghosts? (3/31/2008 8:09:53 PM)

I am not sure what you would define a "ghost" to be, but my definition is simply a spirit. this is why the Holy Spirirt is sometimes called the "Holy Ghost." a spirit has no size, therefore it cannot be seen. there have been 0 ghost sightings in all of history.



vixir -> RE: Aliens and Ghosts? (3/31/2008 8:52:08 PM)

That makes sense...


But no ghost sightings in all of history? What about the things you see in videos now a days? I realize that you can edit pretty much anything given the right program. And some of them are definitely fake... but all of them can't be, right?



rebelyell -> RE: Aliens and Ghosts? (4/1/2008 1:42:47 AM)

ok, well i have given you my definition of a ghost. what is yours? if a ghost is non physical, it cannot be seen. it may take on human form, like Jesus did, but it is not in and of itself physical. now, the Bible actually does state what will happen to non believers. they are predestined to everlasting boredom and guilt in hell. their spirit will continue to exist in a non physical place forever. they do not wander around the earth.



Bettawrekonize -> RE: Aliens and Ghosts? (4/1/2008 1:48:08 AM)

I watched this show called ghost hunters (and another show called UFO hunters) and I think there are some things we can't explain from a scientific perspective. From a Biblical perspective I would argue they are fallen angels here to deceive us (of course this isn't a scientific view) but from a scientific viewpoint the best I can answer is that I don't know. Much of what ghost hunters records (I would say 90%) is mostly explainable through camera pixilation (the camera will pixilate around some dust or something), dust, or some other naturalistic phenomena that they probably haven't considered (maybe a mouse or even a bird). But every once in a while they'll catch something that will make you wonder. I don't think that they would intentionally try to deceive us (though I'm sure there are plenty of times that the people within the houses or places they visit may try to deceive them and the ghost hunters simply don't catch it. I imagine it's very easy for some prankster to hide a small speaker somewhere and make the ghost-hunters receive/record some sound that they thought was legitimate. I don't think the ghost hunters try hard enough to catch people trying to trick them, there are plenty of times where they would catch something on camera and I could imagine ways that someone could have possibly tricked them), and while (from a scientific perspective) I appreciate the fact that they are open minded to something that could be a potentially new field in science sometime in the future, from a Biblical perspective I would argue that they should stay away from that stuff. I seen shows on Discovery channel (I think it was on the discovery channel. I think it's a show called a haunting or something) where people move out of their apartments and houses because they felt threatened by some unknown entity. In many of these shows many of these people claim they all saw the same things and that's what caused them to move out (in one show the people who bought the house couldn't afford to move out). Now, I highly doubt all of these people would be trying to deceive us and if they're willing to move out of a place because of something like this (especially if they can't afford it) then I would have to say that it's highly unlikely that they are making the whole thing up. From my understanding (at least according to what I remember hearing on the discovery channel), haunted real estate is hard to sell. If people are willing to make huge financial decisions based on whether or not a house is haunted (ie: move out, sell it, not buy it, etc...) then I would argue that this isn't something we can simply discredit. From a scientific perspective, the best I can say is I don't know.



bowlight -> RE: Aliens and Ghosts? (4/1/2008 1:48:19 AM)

I don't believe in ghosts. I know the movies depict them or something like it. Whether they know it or not, they are preaching against the word of God. I don't recall reading in the Bible about ghosts per se, but I do recall a section vaguely in the O.T., where Saul went to a ...like a fortune teller,
and asked her to bring up Samuel. That is delving into the occult. God was very angry with Him. Why? It produced nothing right or good in God's eyes. Was it the ghost of Samuel? I don't think so, but I'm not the Last Word...and I'm not going to go into that area. In another passage, in the New Testament...a man was praying and what appeared to him was Lazarus in the bosom of Abraham...that person asking was in hell, and he wanted but a drop of water..crying out for God to send someone to save his brothers. Was Abraham or Lazarus a ghost? I don't think so, but I'm not going to go into that path....
Aliens? There was a friend of mine...a long time ago. He told me there was evidence of UFOs. Did I believe him. At the time...probably accepted it, but if God wanted to display those UFO, which came out of Science Fiction movies...He would have shown them by now...and not by a handful of people.
"Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not yet seen." Hebrews 11:1



1love1God1way -> RE: Aliens and Ghosts? (4/1/2008 12:07:57 PM)

Anybody with half a brain and a computer made in the last decade can make a fake ghost movie/abduction.



Bettawrekonize -> RE: Aliens and Ghosts? (4/1/2008 12:20:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
Anybody with half a brain and a computer made in the last decade can make a fake ghost movie/abduction.


and it's conceivable that all the scientific literature is made up and every video I watch that shows me pictures of space in a science room were all made using some video editing software and all the scientists are lying to us and they just made up everything that's in their peer review journals.

I don't doubt that some people do make ghosts using video editing software and then lie about it, but I don't think that it's conceivable that everyone does this. In the case of the show ghonsthunters, I see no reason to believe that they are lying and in other shows that I've seen on (I believe it was) the Discovery channel (I think the show was a haunting) where you have multiple reports of multiple people who saw the same things (and they moved out of their or house or appartment), I find it hard to believe they're all lying.



1love1God1way -> RE: Aliens and Ghosts? (4/1/2008 1:21:10 PM)

There is a drastic difference between a professionally made film done through an organization and something a 15 year old posted on youtube.



vixir -> RE: Aliens and Ghosts? (4/1/2008 4:49:37 PM)

The videos that I've seen weren't professionally made. Now I'm not saying that every single one of them were 100% real, especially with todays technology. But the fact that we have so much available to us nowadays, shouldn't rule out the idea of some of these videos being real.

rebelyell; to me, a ghost is possibly two things. 1: the soul of one who has died 2: fallen angels -- because you hear some of these stories about evil "ghosts". And I know it says that non-believers go to hell for eternity. But doesn't it say that hell isn't occupied until judgment day? That not even Satan is there?



JimboFletch -> RE: Aliens and Ghosts? (4/1/2008 4:57:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: vixir

The videos that I've seen weren't professionally made. Now I'm not saying that every single one of them were 100% real, especially with todays technology. But the fact that we have so much available to us nowadays, shouldn't rule out the idea of some of these videos being real.

rebelyell; to me, a ghost is possibly two things. 1: the soul of one who has died 2: fallen angels -- because you hear some of these stories about evil "ghosts". And I know it says that non-believers go to hell for eternity. But doesn't it say that hell isn't occupied until judgment day? That not even Satan is there?

In the story of Lazarus and the rich man that Jesus told, the rich man woke up immediately in a place of torment when he died and Lazarus woke up in a place of paradise. Paul wrote that for a believer to die is to be in the presence of Jesus Christ. Scripture also tells us that it is appointed unto man once to die and THEN the judgment.

There is no NT evidence that any souls of either the saved or lost hang around after death. What evidence we have points the other way - you die and you go on to another place.







[Edited to correct typos]



hymnHIM -> RE: Aliens and Ghosts? (4/6/2008 2:04:51 AM)

quote:


In the story of Lazarus and the rich man that Jesus told, the rich man woke up immediately in a place of torment when he died and Lazarus woke up in a place of paradise. Paul wrote that for a believer to die is to be in the presence of Jesus Christ. Scripture also tells us that it is appointed unto man once to die and THEN the judgment.

There is no NT evidence that any souls of either the saved or lost hang around after death. What evidence we have points the other way - you die and you go on to another place.

Excellent post.[sm=thumbsup.gif][sm=thumbsup.gif][sm=thumbsup.gif]



Real_Solitude -> RE: Aliens and Ghosts? (4/6/2008 6:11:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
There is no NT evidence that any souls of either the saved or lost hang around after death. What evidence we have points the other way - you die and you go on to another place.

Link
Link
Link
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 "3Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. 14We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever."

Actually reading your holy book is a great substitute for simply speculating about what it says.



ManimalX -> RE: Aliens and Ghosts? (4/7/2008 2:51:49 AM)

I love it when non-Christians try to interpret the Bible. Ok, I don't love it, I am mostly annoyed by it [&:]

Real_Solitude, the links you provided have nothing to do with the spirits of dead people roaming the earth as ghosts, only some basic stuff on whether a human soul sleeps in the grave or goes to a spiritual paradise, and some arguments on whether the soul is immortal or not. The links you provide actually make quite a case against the existence of ghosts.

Actually reading our holy book is a great substitute for regurgitating non-relevant links.

Actually reading the links you post: priceless.

Trying to make free-roaming human ghosts a biblical teaching is an extreme form of interpretive gymnastics.

Ghosts are demons, bent on either deceiving, frightening, pestering, or a combination of all. Their campaign of deception has been largely successful, seeing how easily confused people are when it comes to the 'paranormal' and how deep the mythos of ghosts is entrenched into almost all human cultures.



JimboFletch -> RE: Aliens and Ghosts? (4/9/2008 9:45:51 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real_Solitude
...Actually reading your holy book is a great substitute for simply speculating about what it says.

That post is practical evidence that scripture cannot be understood apart from the indwelling Holy Spirit's help.
[8|]



Real_Solitude -> RE: Aliens and Ghosts? (4/9/2008 8:04:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
That post is practical evidence that scripture cannot be understood apart from the indwelling Holy Spirit's help.
[8|]

It's not usually my style to respond to posts like this (esotericism fallacy), but what the heck?
That might apply if I had been an atheist when I came to the conclusion that the Bible doesn't say that people immediately go to heaven. I was a Christian at the time, and by reading what the Bible says, came to that conclusion. Other people seem to agree with that interpretation, as evidenced by the links I posted.



JimboFletch -> RE: Aliens and Ghosts? (4/10/2008 8:24:55 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real_Solitude

quote:

ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
That post is practical evidence that scripture cannot be understood apart from the indwelling Holy Spirit's help.
[8|]

It's not usually my style to respond to posts like this (esotericism fallacy), but what the heck?
That might apply if I had been an atheist when I came to the conclusion that the Bible doesn't say that people immediately go to heaven. I was a Christian at the time, and by reading what the Bible says, came to that conclusion. Other people seem to agree with that interpretation, as evidenced by the links I posted.

I find my "Holy Book" to indicate that one doesn't quit being a Christian if they truly were ever saved. If one becomes an atheist after claiming to be a Christian, John tells us they left because they never were one of us. Another place, my "Holy Book" compares them to a pig returning to the mud hole or a dog returning to its vomit. So, by my "Holy Book," you have no authoritative or valid input. TYVM



earthless -> RE: Aliens and Ghosts? (4/10/2008 9:27:17 AM)

Amen, Jimbo. Matthew 7 comes to mind....



WesP -> RE: Atheist Ghost vs Christian Spirit! (4/10/2008 9:43:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real_Solitude

quote:

ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
There is no NT evidence that any souls of either the saved or lost hang around after death. What evidence we have points the other way - you die and you go on to another place.

Link
Link
Link
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 "3Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. 14We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever."

Actually reading your holy book is a great substitute for simply speculating about what it says.

quote:

Link


Jimbo responds:

quote:

That post is practical evidence that scripture cannot be understood apart from the indwelling Holy Spirit's help.


Loner retorts:

quote:

It's not usually my style to respond to posts like this (esotericism fallacy), but what the heck?


RS,

Do you see any contradiction in this? You can dish it out but not take it? [:D]

At any rate, there ain't no such thang as ghosteses and aliens. [;)]



ManimalX -> RE: Atheist Ghost vs Christian Spirit! (4/10/2008 7:16:40 PM)

Good post, Jimbo. There are believers, and there are make-believers. It is the make believers that usually end up giving real Christians a bad rap, and make-believers that cause these opinion polls to end up with results that show Christians are just the same as non-Christians regarding divorce rates, etc.

Real Christianity isn't a pair of pants you can put on and take off whenever you want.



Real_Solitude -> RE: Atheist Ghost vs Christian Spirit! (4/12/2008 4:38:25 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WesSavedByGrace
RS,

Do you see any contradiction in this? You can dish it out but not take it? [:D]

At any rate, there ain't no such thang as ghosteses and aliens. [;)]


Not especially. I was saying that other Christians disagree with Jimbo. He retorted by saying that I couldn't know what the Bible truly says, because I'm not a Christian. My response was that I had disagreed with him when I was a Christian, and that other Christians still disagree with him. He, again, says that I'm not qualified to say what the Bible says, because I am disqualified by the same text. Again, this has nothing at all to do with the fact that other professing Christians disagree with him.
Claiming that I, because I am not (and apparently never was) a Christian, can not use scripture, is irrelevant to the point I was making. Even if I were to agree with every one of his statements, he still would not have countered my original post.

My point was that, when he says "There is no NT evidence that any souls of either the saved or lost hang around after death.", he is being misleading, because other Christians use the verses I provided to counter his claim.

Oh, and Jimbo, I like how you issue an Ad-hominem attack, but hide behind scripture to do it. Let me try. Remember how you twice failed to address the issue, and refuse to acknowledge any interpretation other than your own?
Proverbs 26: 11 As a dog returns to its vomit,
so a fool repeats his folly.
12 Do you see a man wise in his own eyes?
There is more hope for a fool than for him.

Isn't this such grand fun?



vixir -> RE: Atheist Ghost vs Christian Spirit! (4/14/2008 9:41:35 PM)

What about those who dream of their deceased loved ones saying goodbye? So there are no ghosts... but is it possible for those whom you've lost, to visit you in your dreams? Or is that just mumbo-jumbo? I only ask because it has happened to me when two of my friends died. It could have just been because I was morning and that was my minds way of giving me peace with it all. But I'm not sure... yanno? heh...



WesP -> RE: Atheist Ghost vs Christian Spirit! (4/15/2008 9:45:59 AM)

OK. Let's see who has opinions concerning this take on it. Prior to the death of Christ on the cross, people who died went to Sheol. Half was for the righteous, and half was for the damned. Reference the story of Lazarus to define the separation. After Christ rose, He took the ones in Paradise with Him.

Now, what happens to people when they die? Did God change the way things are done, or do the righteous still go to Paradise? I would say God hasn't changed. All rules still apply. The only difference is that Paradise is removed from Sheol. There are no ghosts running around anywhere. Both the righteous and the damned still have their places, and those places are not here.



WesP -> RE: Atheist Ghost vs Christian Spirit! (4/15/2008 9:48:54 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: vixir

What about those who dream of their deceased loved ones saying goodbye? So there are no ghosts... but is it possible for those whom you've lost, to visit you in your dreams? Or is that just mumbo-jumbo? I only ask because it has happened to me when two of my friends died. It could have just been because I was morning and that was my minds way of giving me peace with it all. But I'm not sure... yanno? heh...


The dead don't visit the live. Dreams are processes in which our minds are reconciling the information that we have encountered. The possibility exists that you can have a vision from God in a dream, but the plausability and evidence of that is minute and rare.



ManimalX -> RE: Atheist Ghost vs Christian Spirit! (4/16/2008 2:49:14 AM)

Solitude: your ad hominem fails because Jimbo is not guilty under either of the passages you quote, rather he has spoken the truth and stood by it. You have gone out from among us because you were never of us. You are not "in" with the author of Scripture, and therefore your application of it is severely wanting.

However, this isn't some exclusive club. You can join the redeemed any time you want: admit your shortfallings (sin) and place your trust in Jesus. He died to remove the penalty due you: death. He raised Himself out of death to prove it. Real_Solitude, don't wait!


vixir: sometimes a dream is just a dream, and sometimes demons love to deceive. Remember that Scripture says Satan disguises himself as an angel of light, so it is logical that other demons can also. Just because a particular dream or message from 'beyond' makes you feel good, doesn't mean it is real. Many Christians and non-Christians alike are confused because apparent contact from 'beyond'. Trust the Word: there is a great gulf fixed between the righteous and the unrighteous dead, and the dead are not allowed to come back to witness. If God ever makes an exception, such as in the case of Saul and the witch of Endor, you would know it.



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