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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 3/27/2008 8:28:30 AM
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greatdivide46
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It's a shame that people put their experience above what Scripture teaches. I too walked an aisle, said the sinners prayer and believed that I was saved and indwelled by the Holy Spirit at that moment because that's what I was told. I also felt like I was indwelled by the Holy Spirit at that moment. However, as I began to read the scriptures for myself and study them for myself, I found that my experience didn't line up with what scripture said. Especially regarding the nine conversion accounts in Acts, but also regarding Paul's teaching on salvation. Therefore, I had a decision to make. Do I trust my experience or do I trust Scripture. I came down on the side of Scripture.
I have a high view of Scripture. I believe it means what it says. If it says there is only one baptism (and it does), then I believe that. I don't think there are four baptisms. If Scripture says that we are to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, then I believe that. If Scripture says that when we are baptized for the forgiveness of our sins that we will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, then I believe that. In my life what Scripture actually says will always take precedence over what my personal experience says that it can't be saying or what it must say based on that experience.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
For it is time for judgment to begin at the household of God: and if it begins with us, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God? -- 1 Peter 4:17
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 3/27/2008 9:38:54 AM
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Dona Nobis Pacem
Posts: 133
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Who is your authority ??
Those teaching baptism saves:
Jesus
The Apostles
Scripture
2000 years of traditional Christian teaching
Those teaching baptism doesn't save:
Some modern denominations since Calvin
450 years of modern Christian teaching
A lot of people are claiming that baptism does not save using their own opinions to back it up but I don't see too many people challenging Jesus and the Apostles commandments regarding baptism.
Here are just a couple, there are many more unanswered back on page 1.
Mark 16:15-16
quote:
He (Jesus) said to them, "Go into the whole world and proclaim the gospel to every creature.
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved; whoever does not believe will be condemned.
John 3:4-5
quote:
Nicodemus said to him, "How can a person once grown old be born again? Surely he cannot reenter his mother's womb and be born again, can he?"
Jesus answered, "Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit.
Acts 2:37-38, 41
quote:
Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and they asked Peter and the other apostles, "What are we to do, my brothers?"
Peter (said) to them, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the holy Spirit.
Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand persons were added that day
Again, I guess Jesus, the Apostles and scripture got it wrong.
Peace,
DNP
_____________________________
Pray the Chaplet of Divine Mercy.
For the sake of His sorrowful Passion,
Have mercy on us, and on the whole world.
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 3/27/2008 9:41:40 AM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 3707
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quote:
Again, I guess Jesus, the Apostles and scripture got it wrong.
No, just those who handle the scriptures poorly.
Show me anywhere that the Bible asserts that the shedding of water atones/propitiates for sin and you'll have my full attention.
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 3/27/2008 10:21:11 AM
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LBolt
Posts: 455
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quote:
"Maybe you should all read my first post where I said you can be saved before baptism."
I was being sarcastic. LOL
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 3/27/2008 11:25:49 AM
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lgpreacherman
Posts: 89
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LOL,
Sorry I guess I missed that bit of sarcasim!
_____________________________
There are not over a hundred people in the United States who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions, however, who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church.
Bishop Fulton J. Sheen
www.iccec.com
www.cechome.com
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 3/27/2008 11:44:40 AM
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Ps103
Posts: 11779
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I still want someone to define "ordinance."
_____________________________
Fasten your seatbelts...it's going to be a bumpy night.
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 3/27/2008 12:31:12 PM
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lgpreacherman
Posts: 89
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Even though I do not agree with the term "ordinance" I will take a go at it, please someone correct me if I am wrong. The tern sacrament is too weighty of a word for mant people and in their mind carries too much supperstisious baggage with it. For these people the term ordinance replaces the term sacrament so as to signify less importance to the act and to say that it is something we do because it is a good practice but there is nothing spiritual that truly goes along with it. Since the term sacrament comes from the greek word which means mystery. Ordinance is used because supposedly the infallible word of God tells us everything we need to know and there is no such thing as mystery as long as you are reading the Bible through the right lenses.
_____________________________
There are not over a hundred people in the United States who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions, however, who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church.
Bishop Fulton J. Sheen
www.iccec.com
www.cechome.com
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 3/27/2008 12:42:52 PM
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Ps103
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Thanks, lg. That is sort of what I have observed, too, but here is what I was getting at:
If Jesus made something an "ordinance," does that not mean it is something He requires of us?
That is how *I* would define "ordinance"--a command.
To me, if Jesus commanded it, He *required* it.
But the manner in which "ordinance" is being used in this thread makes me think others are defining it differently.
_____________________________
Fasten your seatbelts...it's going to be a bumpy night.
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 3/27/2008 3:34:53 PM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 971
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
I agree and pray that one day you'll get your theology corrected through studying it without CoC-colored glasses.
It might interest you to know that I am not now, nor have I ever been a member of a Church of Christ. Certainly I agree with their doctrine on baptism, but they're a little too strict about it for me.
I came to my conclusions about the role of baptism in salvation by myself without any "colored glasses" CoC or otherwise. Imagine my surprise when I found that there were entire churches who believed the same thing I did. Having come out of the Episcopal church, through the Southern Baptist Church, I was so glad to find somewhere I could worship with people of like precious faith.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
For it is time for judgment to begin at the household of God: and if it begins with us, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God? -- 1 Peter 4:17
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 3/27/2008 4:31:09 PM
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A_crucified_man
Posts: 164
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ps103
Thanks, lg. That is sort of what I have observed, too, but here is what I was getting at:
If Jesus made something an "ordinance," does that not mean it is something He requires of us?
That is how *I* would define "ordinance"--a command.
To me, if Jesus commanded it, He *required* it.
But the manner in which "ordinance" is being used in this thread makes me think others are defining it differently.
I believe I have used ordinance and command in conjunction with one another - but a command doesn't add to our salvation through Calvary.
_____________________________
Derek
John 3:30 "He must increase, but I must decrease."
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 3/27/2008 4:48:54 PM
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A_crucified_man
Posts: 164
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
It's a shame that people put their experience above what Scripture teaches. I too walked an aisle, said the sinners prayer and believed that I was saved and indwelled by the Holy Spirit at that moment because that's what I was told. I also felt like I was indwelled by the Holy Spirit at that moment. However, as I began to read the scriptures for myself and study them for myself, I found that my experience didn't line up with what scripture said. Especially regarding the nine conversion accounts in Acts, but also regarding Paul's teaching on salvation. Therefore, I had a decision to make. Do I trust my experience or do I trust Scripture. I came down on the side of Scripture.
I have a high view of Scripture. I believe it means what it says. If it says there is only one baptism (and it does), then I believe that. I don't think there are four baptisms. If Scripture says that we are to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, then I believe that. If Scripture says that when we are baptized for the forgiveness of our sins that we will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, then I believe that. In my life what Scripture actually says will always take precedence over what my personal experience says that it can't be saying or what it must say based on that experience.
My experiences with God line up with Scripture with respect to the Believers Baptism (by the Holy Spirit into the Body of Christ), the Baptism of the Holy Spirit (by the Lord Jesus Christ with the physical evidence of speaking in unknown tongues), and water baptism - and in that exact order with respect to my Christian experience. The Baptism of Suffering is also clearly shown in Scripture - just read about Paul's life and ministry if you're not sure about it.
I've been through the dark night of the soul several times (and going through it again) with respect to my faith, my unbelief, and my doubt concerning my salvation, my infilling with the Holy Spirit, and whether or not God's Word is sufficient for my every need spiritually, emotionally, and physically.
I know that Jesus is who the Bible says He is, and that I am sealed with the Holy Spirit. I also know that my beliefs are not widely accepted among those whom I call my brethren - even on this site - but I'll keep the faith once delivered unto the Saints until my dying day.
There are four baptism's, divide - they are clearly defined in Scripture and I can give you the references. But, alas, I've offered ample proof in other threads for three of them to no avail.
I'm frustrated that all we do is argue about our pet doctrines, there is no true desire to know the Truth, and I'm done mixing it up on this site - it isn't a blessing coming here anymore.
Shalom.
_____________________________
Derek
John 3:30 "He must increase, but I must decrease."
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 3/27/2008 5:19:42 PM
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FreeGrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: A_crucified_man
Scripture doesn't support it - we're saved by GRACE alone, water can't save you.
I agree we are saved by grace alone. But the fact that we are saved by grace alone doesn't mean that we do nothing in order to receive that grace.
It means exactly that! We do nothing to receive God's grace. It is available for whosoever believes in His Son.
Grace is God's doing. Baptism is man doing. It doesn't save. It is an obedience.
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 3/27/2008 5:23:19 PM
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FreeGrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
I do believe that's its required, but I don't not believe that it is what saves us. We are saved by God's grace and nothing else.
This is contradictory, gd. If it doesn't save us, they why is it "required"?
otoh, faith IS required for salvation.
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 3/27/2008 5:46:57 PM
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LBolt
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quote:
"I certainly have no desire to detract from anyone's testimony, but I learned a long time ago the experience can sometimes be wrong, but Scripture never is. I have had the experience of thinking that I had the Holy Spirit without the benefit of baptism in water. But when I started reading the Scriptures in earnest and studying them, I found that my experience was incorrect. So, in my view, experience never trumps scripture."
I guess me wanting to tell others about Jesus, witness and be baptized in water (which happened the next week) were all desires of satan or something completely false..Heh?
I think you may want to check you understanding of the scriptures before you post because it has been proven through scripture and experience to be wrong.
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 3/27/2008 6:18:36 PM
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FreeGrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: A_crucified_man
I'll have to revisit it as it relates to the ONE baptism, but there are to my understanding, FOUR Baptism's:
* A Baptism of Repentance (Christ's salvation by means of our acknowledgement of sin and our need of forgiveness)
* The Believers Baptism (the one being discussed here and is symbolic of the believer becoming identified with Christ's death, burial, and resurrection)
* A Baptism of Suffering (the believer's preparation for the cross and is part of our dying-out process; He must increase, but I must decrease)
* The Baptism of the Holy Spirit (aforementioned as the "infilling" which associates the believer with Christ in power and authority, resulting in a fruitful life and an effective ministry. I've been taught that it always follows with the physical evidence of speaking in other tongues which also allows us to operate in the other Gifts of the Spirit as He wills).
I am aware of 7 baptisms, 3 of which involve water, and 4 that do not. All Biblical baptisms involve an identification.
1-John's baptism included water, for identification with repentance
2-Jesus was baptized by John in water for identification with His Father's plan
3-believer's baptism in water, for identification with the death, burial and resurrection of our Savior
4-baptism of the Holy Spirit for identification as one of God's children. No water.
5-baptism into Moses, 1 Cor 10:2, for identification with Moses as the exodus generation left Egypt. No water. Though there was quite a bit of water all around them, they passed through the Jordan "dry shod".
6-Jesus referred to going to the cross as His baptism, in Mark 10:38,39 and Luke 12:50, for identification with our sins, which He bore substitutionally. No water.
There is one more, but I cannot find my notes. Sorry.
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 3/27/2008 6:24:40 PM
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FreeGrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ps103
Thanks, lg. That is sort of what I have observed, too, but here is what I was getting at:
If Jesus made something an "ordinance," does that not mean it is something He requires of us?
That is how *I* would define "ordinance"--a command.
To me, if Jesus commanded it, He *required* it.
But the manner in which "ordinance" is being used in this thread makes me think others are defining it differently.
Good point, Ps 103. Now the question is: what is baptism required for? Appears some think it is for salvation, and others think it is an act of obedience as testimony of their faith.
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 3/27/2008 9:07:20 PM
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Ps103
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But if someone refuses baptism, and it was a command of Jesus, I would seriously wonder about their faith.... If I believe in Jesus do I not want to do what He tells me to do?
In that sense, anyway, I do not see how anyone can say baptism is *not* a requirement.
_____________________________
Fasten your seatbelts...it's going to be a bumpy night.
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 3/27/2008 9:40:24 PM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 971
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
It means exactly that! We do nothing to receive God's grace. It is available for whosoever believes in His Son. Did you read what you wrote? First you say that we do nothing to receive God's grace, then turn right around and boldly state that its available to whoever believes in His son. Are you trying to tell me that believing in His Son is doing nothing??
The only way that God's grace can be received by doing nothing is if someone is sitting there one day, not even thing about God, when ZAP -- God's grace takes them by surprise. I don't think that happens because I don't think it's Biblical.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
For it is time for judgment to begin at the household of God: and if it begins with us, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God? -- 1 Peter 4:17
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 3/27/2008 9:46:43 PM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 971
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
I do believe that's its required, but I don't not believe that it is what saves us. We are saved by God's grace and nothing else.
This is contradictory, gd. If it doesn't save us, they why is it "required"?
otoh, faith IS required for salvation.
I believe that faith and baptism are both required, but I do not believe that it is faith or baptism that saves us. We are saved by God's grace and nothing else.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
For it is time for judgment to begin at the household of God: and if it begins with us, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God? -- 1 Peter 4:17
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 3/28/2008 6:48:26 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 5067
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
It means exactly that! We do nothing to receive God's grace. It is available for whosoever believes in His Son. Did you read what you wrote? First you say that we do nothing to receive God's grace, then turn right around and boldly state that its available to whoever believes in His son. Are you trying to tell me that believing in His Son is doing nothing??
When one says to "do something", that usually indicates "accomplishing something", right? How do you view the act of believing something to be accomplishing something? There is no effort in thinking, or believing, and nothing is "accomplished", from our perspective. From God's perspective, He takes "action" as a result of our belief.
quote:
The only way that God's grace can be received by doing nothing is if someone is sitting there one day, not even thing about God, when ZAP -- God's grace takes them by surprise. I don't think that happens because I don't think it's Biblical.
You and I view thinking and believing differently. Does God "benefit" from what you think? No. Does God "benefit" from your acts of obedience in witnessing, helping others, etc? Yes. And those things are called good deeds/works. If they were required for salvation, our salvation would be earned by those works. But it's not. Believing cannot be thought of as a work or deed, since nothing is accomplished from simply thinking something.
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 3/28/2008 7:18:22 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 971
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
When one says to "do something", that usually indicates "accomplishing something", right? How do you view the act of believing something to be accomplishing something? There is no effort in thinking, or believing, and nothing is "accomplished", from our perspective. From God's perspective, He takes "action" as a result of our belief.
You and I view thinking and believing differently. Does God "benefit" from what you think? No. Does God "benefit" from your acts of obedience in witnessing, helping others, etc? Yes. And those things are called good deeds/works. If they were required for salvation, our salvation would be earned by those works. But it's not. Believing cannot be thought of as a work or deed, since nothing is accomplished from simply thinking something. So, now you're telling me that thinking and believing don't accomplish anything? I guess you're right. You and I do view thinking and believing differently. While I don't consider belief or thinking to be a work, I do think that it accomplishes something. Does God "benefit" from what you think? Maybe not, but neither does God "benefit" from people being baptized. Certainly God "benefits' from our good works, but I don't count baptism as a work. Baptism has more the character of a promise than a work.
Apparently the Apostle Paul saw baptism and grace as nearly synonymous because in Ephesians 2:1-7 he doesn't mention baptism, but in the parallel passage in Colossians, he doesn't mention grace, and yet he was purveying the same message.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
For it is time for judgment to begin at the household of God: and if it begins with us, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God? -- 1 Peter 4:17
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 3/28/2008 9:32:21 AM
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SureHope
Posts: 1243
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Believing in fact is not doing anything. I do no work to believe. When Christ was revealed to me as the most wonderful Savior, the most valuable Treasure, the most beautiful Shepherd, the most irresistible Person, I did not need to labor over whether to believe or not - I believed what I knew was true. I heard His voice, I knew His voice and therefore believed that which I knew was true. No work in that at all. The convincing proof is the witness of the Spirit of God, not what I do.
On the other hand, getting into water is work. If anything I have to do is made to be a requirement for my salvation then it is works based salvation or legalism.
Now of course works naturally come out of faith. That is why I was baptized in water . . . because I was already saved by grace through faith.
Blessings,
SH
_____________________________
-Fix Your Hope Completely on the Grace to be Brought to You at the Revelation of Jesus Christ (1 Pet 1:13)
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 3/28/2008 10:07:44 AM
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lgpreacherman
Posts: 89
Joined: 2/9/2008
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"Lord I believe help my unbelief"
Clearly Belief is not something that comes natural to everyone. Some people need to labor over it. For those who experience the "Dark Night of the Soul" it is a labor to keep up belief, it would be much easier to scrap the whole thing for these people
_____________________________
There are not over a hundred people in the United States who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions, however, who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church.
Bishop Fulton J. Sheen
www.iccec.com
www.cechome.com
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