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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/12/2008 8:57:25 PM
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FreeGrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
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ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
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ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
However, you are correct that the water is not what saves us in baptism and I have never said it does. Only God can save a person -- water or our own actions certainly can't.
That is precisely why I disagree with your position. We are saved by faith apart from anything else. Water baptism is a ritual only, to demonstrate spiritual issues. Wow!! I say, "only God can save a person -- water or our own actions certainly can't," and you say, "that is precisely why I disagree with your position." I guess I must be missing something because I was certain you would agree with me on that.
You position is that we are "cleansed" during the act of water baptism by the Holy Spirit. I disagree with that. My understanding of the Bible is that water baptism is a ritual and has nothing to do with "getting saved". We are saved by God (as you agree) on the basis of faith in Christ (as you agree also), but you add that water baptism is necessary for salvation. I don't see how.
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/12/2008 8:59:41 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 5622
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
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ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
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ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
What I said was, "What he's saying is that water baptism doesn't make us physically clean, it makes us spiritually clean.
That is precisely where you are in error. It is the Holy Spirit who makes us "clean" when He regenerates us. How am I in error? I'm saying the same thing you're saying. I'm just not saying it with the same words. I agree with you that it is the Holy Spirit who makes us clean when He regenerates us. You are certainly NOT in error in saying that. 
If you and I are in such agreement, then why do you say that water baptism is necessary for salvation?
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/12/2008 9:16:41 PM
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greatdivide46
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
If you and I are in such agreement, then why do you say that water baptism is necessary for salvation? You mean to tell me that you think water baptism is unnecessary? If so, then you're right -- we do disagree at that point.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/12/2008 9:21:18 PM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1089
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
you add that water baptism is necessary for salvation. I don't see how. I'm not the one adding that water baptism is necessary for salvation. There are just too many verses in the New Testament that link salvation and water baptism for me to ignore, like I used to.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/12/2008 10:48:52 PM
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meerkat
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
you add that water baptism is necessary for salvation. I don't see how. I'm not the one adding that water baptism is necessary for salvation. There are just too many verses in the New Testament that link salvation and water baptism for me to ignore, like I used to.
Hi Greatdivide,
When you state that THE time that the Spirit regenerates someone is by the act of water baptism then, yes you are saying that water baptism is necessary for salvation. You are saying that the only way to be saved is to be water baptised. You have stated that whenever you see baptism you assume that it means water baptism unless it specifically states baptism of/by the Spirit.
I personally don't think that asuming that any time baptism is mentioned that it should be read as water baptism.
What do you think of
Matt 20:23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but [it shall be given to them] for whom it is prepared of my Father.
Isn't that the baptism referred to of his death and resurrection. I think that this is what the passage in Peter refers to , the spiritual reality which the water baptism symbolises.
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/13/2008 1:38:26 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
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Actually, I'm astounded you think that an action you take can cleanse you of sins :) Actually I'm not saying that my action of being baptized is what cleanses me of my sin. What I am saying is that it is the action that God takes when I am baptized that cleanses me from my sin.
It is the action you take when you make the decision to be water baptized. And, you only assume this is the time God will take His action. God must "wait" until you decide to be water baptized - until you decide to be saved. No matter how you cut it - it is an action you take and a decision you make - all apart from God.
Apart from God because, a person is not saved, not indwelt by the Holy Spirit and lacks faith until he decides to be water baptized. And, water baptized by immersion "only" no less...lots of assumptions going on.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/13/2008 1:39:35 AM
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kelman
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ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
We find that baptizo, baptismos and baptisma are usually translated as "baptize" or "baptism"; but, also are translated as "wash" or "cleanse". For example, we find this in Mark 7:4; Luke 11:38; Hebrews 9:10. Therefore, these passages show us that in the Bible "baptize" means to wash, cleanse or purify. So, it is not correct to say that these words mean "to immerse". It may be different in other versions but in the NASB "baptizo" is translated "wash" once (Luke 11:38); the word "baptismos" only appears three times in scripture and is translated washing (1) and washings (2); and the word "baptisma" is always translated "baptism." So, I think four instances is hardly a mandate for not understanding baptism to inherently mean immerse. Besides how do you wash something or cleanse something without getting in completely wet? Seems to me that "immerse" is even inherent in the words "wash" and "cleanse." Let me know the next time you "immerse" your table before you eat.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/13/2008 1:47:14 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
In 1Peter 3:21, we see that it is not the figure, shadow or antitype of "water" which can only remove dirt from our bodies; but, the "spiritual" baptism which gives us the answer of a good conscience toward God. That is, our conscience can no longer accuse us of being under the wrath of God because our sins have been washed away.
"The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:"
Next to Mark 16:16 I think this is the most straightforward and unequivocal statement in the New Testament concerning the relationship between baptism and salvation.
Some have, though, through careless reading, interpreted this verse to mean that baptism itself is the figure or symbol that stands for some other reality. Rather, the verse is clear that water baptism is the sign, shadow, antitype or figure of the baptism that saves - that of the Holy Spirit - water is "the like figure".
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So, baptism isn't the symbol but the reality itself, and that reality is the fact that salvation occurs simultaneously with baptism (or as Peter says it, "baptism doth also now save us.")
You neglected to add something else Peter said which is the clear indication that it is not water he is speaking about. Why?....because he says water can only cleanse the dirt from the body. "(not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:"
It is clear he is talking about spiritual baptism because he insists - not water - "(not the putting away of the filth of the flesh,"
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/13/2008 1:49:16 AM
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kelman
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ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
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ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Was Noah saved BY water or FROM water? I rest my case. The point is that the water didn't save him, just as neither does water baptism save us. Only if the water saved Noah would you have a point, but you don't. Noah was saved FROM death BY water, yes. Absolutely not! Noah was saved by the ARK which is a figure of Jesus Christ - not by water. Just as water baptism is the like figure of what actually does save - the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.
It is the "spiritual" baptism which gives us the answer of a "good conscience toward God". Our conscience can no longer accuse us of being under the wrath of God because our sins have been washed away by the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
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That is precisely where you are in error. It is the Holy Spirit who makes us "clean" when He regenerates us. How am I in error? I'm saying the same thing you're saying. I'm just not saying it with the same words. I agree with you that it is the Holy Spirit who makes us clean when He regenerates us. You are certainly NOT in error in saying that. Actually, you're not saying the same thing at all. You are insisting that when one gets baptized in water that is the precise time the Holy Spirit baptizes. We find no scriptural support for this. One must evidence faith to be baptized in water; and, faith is the evidence one has already been baptized by the Holy Spirit.
< Message edited by kelman -- 5/13/2008 2:00:10 AM >
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“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/13/2008 2:22:23 AM
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kelman
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ORIGINAL: Heavendweller
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ORIGINAL: kelman
For one thing, unless God has given us a new heart and a new spirit we cannot truly believe. And, to "confess" means to be of one mind with Christ which is something a spiritually dead person cannot be.
FreeGrace: "Really? Then you are disagreeing with your Lord, who said "Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear shall live[." Jn 5:25.
Note what the "dead" can do: hear. Also note the sequence: the dead shall hear and (then) live."
Just before this verse we read Jn 5:24 in which Jesus says, "He who hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life; he does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life."
I stress the words "hear" and "believe" because in so many places in Scripture these two concepts are connected. The spiritually dead do not hear, see or believe until God opens their blind eyes, deaf ears and gives them a new heart. And when God does this miracle of regeneration the dead will see, will hear and will believe. Nor, can a reprobate be of the "same mind as Christ".
To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me. -Acts 26:18
The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, -Luke 4:18
Then I will give them a heart to know me, that I am the LORD; and they shall be my people and I will be their God, for they shall return to Me with their whole heart. -Jeremiah 24:7
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Further on in the 10th ch. of Romans St. Paul says, "But how are men to call upon him in who they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without a preacher? (v.14) So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes by the preaching of Christ." (v.17)
What would be the point in a preacher if unregenerated man is unable to hear and respond? The "point" should be obvious. The Gospel must be preached to spiritually dead men for the Holy Spirit to apply the Gospel to their hearts - their NEW hearts - the new hearts given by the Holy Spirit when He regenerates them - when He "recovers the sight of the blind and sets them at liberty."
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“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/13/2008 9:25:08 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1089
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quote:
ORIGINAL: meerkat
Hi Greatdivide,
When you state that THE time that the Spirit regenerates someone is by the act of water baptism then, yes you are saying that water baptism is necessary for salvation. You are saying that the only way to be saved is to be water baptised. You have stated that whenever you see baptism you assume that it means water baptism unless it specifically states baptism of/by the Spirit. I'm agreeing with Scripture that the Spirit regenerates someone in the act of water baptism. I'm not the one saying it, I'm simply agreeing with Scripture. I also agree with Scripture that water baptism is necessary for salvation.
However, I don't believe that I have ever said that the only way to be saved is to be water baptized. I believe it is the way Scripture teaches, but since God is the author of Scripture if He wants to save someone else in some other way, I'm not one to stand in His way. But even though being water baptized may not the only way to be saved, it is the way that is taught in Scripture, therefore I cannot go against Scripture and teach another way.
quote:
I personally don't think that asuming that any time baptism is mentioned that it should be read as water baptism.
What do you think of
Matt 20:23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but [it shall be given to them] for whom it is prepared of my Father.
This is one of those verses where the context clearly indicates that Jesus is not talking about water baptism. Therefore, I would not see this as water baptism. But whenever the context does not make it clear, like it is here, then I assume its referring to water baptism.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/13/2008 9:31:39 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1089
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
We find that baptizo, baptismos and baptisma are usually translated as "baptize" or "baptism"; but, also are translated as "wash" or "cleanse". For example, we find this in Mark 7:4; Luke 11:38; Hebrews 9:10. Therefore, these passages show us that in the Bible "baptize" means to wash, cleanse or purify. So, it is not correct to say that these words mean "to immerse". It may be different in other versions but in the NASB "baptizo" is translated "wash" once (Luke 11:38); the word "baptismos" only appears three times in scripture and is translated washing (1) and washings (2); and the word "baptisma" is always translated "baptism." So, I think four instances is hardly a mandate for not understanding baptism to inherently mean immerse. Besides how do you wash something or cleanse something without getting in completely wet? Seems to me that "immerse" is even inherent in the words "wash" and "cleanse." Let me know the next time you "immerse" your table before you eat.
Ohhh, good point!! Ya got me!!! 
_____________________________
greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/13/2008 9:42:22 AM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 4680
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
For one thing, unless God has given us a new heart and a new spirit we cannot truly believe. And, to "confess" means to be of one mind with Christ which is something a spiritually dead person cannot be.
Really? Then you are disagreeing with your Lord, who said "Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear shall live." Jn 5:25.
Note what the "dead" can do: hear. Also note the sequence: the dead shall hear and (then) live.
But they don't hear or live without supernatural intervention - they do not have the ability to hear any time they choose and they do not have power within themselves to live just by hearing - unless you subscribe to the false teaching that just hearing the Gospel is all that is needed for obtaining eternal life (no rebirth, faith, or repenting required).
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/13/2008 9:42:55 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1089
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
You neglected to add something else Peter said which is the clear indication that it is not water he is speaking about. Why?....because he says water can only cleanse the dirt from the body. "(not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:"
It is clear he is talking about spiritual baptism because he insists - not water - "(not the putting away of the filth of the flesh," I did not neglect the phrase "not the putting away of the filth of the flesh." Paul is not eliminating water by saying that. What he's saying is that the water of baptism is not a bath where one cleans the physical dirt off. It is during water baptism that our spiritual cleansing takes place, not a physical cleansing.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/13/2008 9:56:12 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1089
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From: Opp, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
Absolutely not! Noah was saved by the ARK which is a figure of Jesus Christ - not by water. Just as water baptism is the like figure of what actually does save - the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. Verse 20 says literally that eight persons were saved through water. I'll admit that there is some disagreement as to whether "through" means "by means of" or "while going through." In the former case the water is the instrument of salvation in the sense that it keeps the ark afloat; in the latter case the water is the element from which Noah's family is saved. Since Peter is making a comparison with baptism, I think it is more likley that he intends the instrumental use since it more readily corresponds to baptism. I may not be accustomed to think of the waters of the flood as an instrument of salvation, but I am even less prepared to think of the water of baptism as something we must be "brought safely through."
Whatever the precise connection between the flood and baptism may be, this fact remains clear: in some sense Noah's family was saved by the water of the flood, and this prefigures the fact that "baptism now saves you."
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It is the "spiritual" baptism which gives us the answer of a "good conscience toward God". Our conscience can no longer accuse us of being under the wrath of God because our sins have been washed away by the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Heinrich Greeven, in Theological Dictionary of the New Testament says, "The request for a good conscience . . . is to be construed as a prayer for the remission of sins." (p. 688)
_____________________________
greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/13/2008 8:35:19 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 5622
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
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ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
If you and I are in such agreement, then why do you say that water baptism is necessary for salvation? You mean to tell me that you think water baptism is unnecessary? If so, then you're right -- we do disagree at that point.
I have said that water baptism is unnecessasry for salvation. It is necessary for obedience to the commands of our Lord as a believer who is already saved.
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/13/2008 8:43:31 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 5622
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
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ORIGINAL: Heavendweller
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
For one thing, unless God has given us a new heart and a new spirit we cannot truly believe. And, to "confess" means to be of one mind with Christ which is something a spiritually dead person cannot be.
FreeGrace: "Really? Then you are disagreeing with your Lord, who said "Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear shall live[." Jn 5:25.
Note what the "dead" can do: hear. Also note the sequence: the dead shall hear and (then) live."
Just before this verse we read Jn 5:24 in which Jesus says, "He who hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life; he does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life."
I stress the words "hear" and "believe" because in so many places in Scripture these two concepts are connected.
The spiritually dead do not hear, see or believe until God opens their blind eyes, deaf ears and gives them a new heart.
That isn't what Jesus said. He said the "dead SHALL HEAR" and as a result of hearing, SHALL LIVE. Do you notice the progression. The "dead" first "hear", and then "shall live". Until they "live", they are "dead". Got it?
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And when God does this miracle of regeneration the dead will see, will hear and will believe. Nor, can a reprobate be of the "same mind as Christ".
Where do you find clear evidence that regeneration precedes faith?
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To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me. -Acts 26:18
kelman, do you know who is the one who "opens their eyes"? Paul, not God. This text doesn't support your view.
quote:
The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, -Luke 4:18
How does this verse support your view?
quote:
Then I will give them a heart to know me, that I am the LORD; and they shall be my people and I will be their God, for they shall return to Me with their whole heart. -Jeremiah 24:7
Can you demonstrate clearly that they are given a heart to know God before faith?
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/13/2008 8:46:40 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 5622
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
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ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
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ORIGINAL: kelman
For one thing, unless God has given us a new heart and a new spirit we cannot truly believe. And, to "confess" means to be of one mind with Christ which is something a spiritually dead person cannot be.
Really? Then you are disagreeing with your Lord, who said "Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear shall live." Jn 5:25.
Note what the "dead" can do: hear. Also note the sequence: the dead shall hear and (then) live.
But they don't hear or live without supernatural intervention - they do not have the ability to hear any time they choose and they do not have power within themselves to live just by hearing - unless you subscribe to the false teaching that just hearing the Gospel is all that is needed for obtaining eternal life (no rebirth, faith, or repenting required).
Do you really grasp what Jesus said in John 5:25? He said the dead will hear, and as a result of hearing, will live. Do you notice that the "dead" hear before they live? Does that support regeneration preceding faith? No.
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/14/2008 4:48:26 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3351
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
You neglected to add something else Peter said which is the clear indication that it is not water he is speaking about. Why?....because he says water can only cleanse the dirt from the body. "(not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:"
It is clear he is talking about spiritual baptism because he insists - not water - "(not the putting away of the filth of the flesh," I did not neglect the phrase "not the putting away of the filth of the flesh." Paul is not eliminating water by saying that. What he's saying is that the water of baptism is not a bath where one cleans the physical dirt off. It is during water baptism that our spiritual cleansing takes place, not a physical cleansing.
If you'll forgive me, that makes no sense. Where is water baptism ever seen as intended to simply clean the body? No, it always signaled a spiritual symbolism. Peter is differentiating between the two baptisms - water and spiritual - and indicating the one he now speaks of is not water when he says: "not the putting away of the filth of the flesh."
The baptism that is in view must be spiritual baptism because, simply put, water baptism, an action we take, can never save. This verse is explaining that spiritual baptism does not put away the filth of the flesh as the shadow water baptism does.
Rather, it gives us the answer of a good conscience toward God; our conscience can no longer accuse us of being under the wrath of God because our sins have been washed away and we walk in "newness of life".
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/14/2008 4:53:29 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3351
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
Verse 20 says literally that eight persons were saved through water. I'll admit that there is some disagreement as to whether "through" means "by means of" or "while going through." In the former case the water is the instrument of salvation in the sense that it keeps the ark afloat; in the latter case the water is the element from which Noah's family is saved. Since Peter is making a comparison with baptism, I think it is more likley that he intends the instrumental use since it more readily corresponds to baptism. I may not be accustomed to think of the waters of the flood as an instrument of salvation, but I am even less prepared to think of the water of baptism as something we must be "brought safely through."
This is the water that drowned all of mankind save eight believers. We cannot say the same water kills and saves. Only the Ark, which is a figure of Christ, can save anyone. The sense of the verse is better understood as: "they were safely preserved through the water," because they were in the Ark.
In a sense, we can look at it this way which gives a more precise understanding of the role of water baptism. Noah evidenced faith, he was a believer, he was saved, in was in Christ, he was spiritually baptized; and, the flood was his water baptism.
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It is the "spiritual" baptism which gives us the answer of a "good conscience toward God". Our conscience can no longer accuse us of being under the wrath of God because our sins have been washed away by the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Heinrich Greeven, in Theological Dictionary of the New Testament says, "The request for a good conscience . . . is to be construed as a prayer for the remission of sins." (p. 688)
Oh, well, then it must be true :)
There is no "request" being made here. The word also means to: earnestly desire, to crave. It means the evidence of regeneration as we earnest desire to walk in the "newness of life"; therefore our conscience can no longer accuse us because we've had our sins washed away as evidenced by our "new life".
BTW, this verse basically sinks the idea that immersion is the mode of water baptism. The Ark was never immersed in the water. Had it been all would have died. The rain "water" sprinkled the Ark; and, this sprinkling corresponds to the OT ceremonial cleansing rituals.
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“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/14/2008 8:32:28 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1089
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
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ORIGINAL: kelman
If you'll forgive me, that makes no sense. Where is water baptism ever seen as intended to simply clean the body? No, it always signaled a spiritual symbolism. Peter is differentiating between the two baptisms - water and spiritual - and indicating the one he now speaks of is not water when he says: "not the putting away of the filth of the flesh." Paul is not differentiating between two baptisms here. His point is precisely that water baptism is never intended to simply clean the body. It is in water baptism that we are spiritually cleansed. Rather than differentiating between two baptisms (water and spiritual), he is combining them to go along with Paul's statement in Ephesians 4:5 that there is only one baptism.
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greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/14/2008 8:36:04 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1089
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
Status: offline
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ORIGINAL: kelman
The baptism that is in view must be spiritual baptism because, simply put, water baptism, an action we take, can never save. This verse is explaining that spiritual baptism does not put away the filth of the flesh as the shadow water baptism does. Certainly the baptism in view is spiritual, but the very fact the Peter uses the flood as a type of baptism indicates that he's talking about water baptism. So, while it's true that water baptism, an action we take, cannot save us, that doesn't make it impossible for God to perform His spiritual baptism at the same time as our water baptism.
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greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/15/2008 4:33:43 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3351
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ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
Paul is not differentiating between two baptisms here. His point is precisely that water baptism is never intended to simply clean the body. Where do we find anything indicating people believed water baptism was simply for the purpose of taking a bath? Perhaps you could support that idea with something from Scripture?
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“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/15/2008 5:00:50 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3351
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
So, while it's true that water baptism, an action we take, cannot save us, that doesn't make it impossible for God to perform His spiritual baptism at the same time as our water baptism. To take the action, or make the decision, to be water baptized is generally in response to faith. And, if one has faith, he is already spiritually baptized/born from above/regenerated.
Obviously, some do make the decision to be water baptized without first coming to faith. Water is the figure or sign that points to the washing away of the sins of the one who became saved or desires to come to salvation. It points to the hope that some time in the future the individual baptized may become saved - as in the case of children.
Jesus was baptized with the Holy Spirit and fire(Luke 3:16). The fire, that is, the burnt offering Jesus was to become as He endured the wrath of God on our behalf, would provide the cleansing. The Holy Spirit applies the cleansing to those who would be saved.
We see what "washes" us in Rev 1:5 "washed us from our sins in his own blood." and again in 1John 1:7 "the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." This is the "only" cleansing and it is appropriated for us when we are spiritually baptized/born from above/regenerated.
I don't see anything in Scripture that would lead to the understanding that this spiritual cleansing takes place when "we" take an action.
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“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 5/15/2008 7:37:53 AM
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greatdivide46
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