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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 4/27/2008 6:26:52 PM
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Ephesians4_32
Posts: 2276
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From: The Crossroads of America
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Heavendweller
...Now to amend and clarify. It was Luther who opposed Zwingli's view on Baptism, specifically Zwingli's opposition to "regenerational" Baptism, of which Luther supported. However, Calvin didn't object to Zwingli's view (as I had originally stated, my error) Rather, he built upon Zwingli's model. That is, both Calvin and Zwingli opposed Luther, who believed that the Word of God when declared with the immersion/sprinkling of water, effected grace and introduced the life of God into the one being baptized. Granted, I am not quoting word per word from Luther here, but paraphrasing.
Therefore, Zwingli laid the groundwork upon which Calvin built. It's interesting to note however, that these two reformers (as well as Luther) believed in infant baptism. Upon this particular matter all 3 agreed. The anabaptists were the ones who opposed these 3 reformers, repudiating infant baptism. And it's interesting to note that Luther, Calvin and Zwingli considered the anabaptists to be heretics, and caught up in fanaticism.
"There are two kinds of Anabaptists, the sober and the fanatical."
Two Kinds of Anabaptists
Anabaptist Story
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 4/28/2008 2:16:18 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
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ORIGINAL: kelman
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ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
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ORIGINAL: kelman
Are you saying there are "two" ways in which God saves? One way before Christ ascended and another way afterwards? Actually I wasn't saying that, but I do believe that, yes.
Okay, gd, I'll bite - what are the "two" ways?
Faith in the promises of God (Old Testament) and Faith in the risen Christ (NT).
The first thing that requires a change in the nature of saving faith is that the actual works of redemption are now accomplished facts, and saving faith must be directed toward them specifically and not just toward the general promises of a mericiful God. Where does Scripture ever imply that belief in "the general promises of a merciful God" saves? Besides, Scripture teaches Christ is the "Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world"; therefore, the effectiveness of the atonement reaches back into time to save.
When we read 1Peter 1:10-11, we see that the OT prophets prophesied of Christ and the Spirit of Christ was in them and preached to them. And, so we see the method of salvation was the same in the OT as the NT - we must be indwelled by the Holy Spirit and faith comes by the hearing of the Word.
Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
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The second thing that requires a change in the nature of saving faith is the fact that these works of redemption have been accomplished by a God who is Triune in nature. Though the concept of the Trinity was forshadowed in the Old Testament revelation, its reality was never made explicit.
I really don't know what to make of this. It is the three Persons of the Trinity who accomplish salvation at any time in history. Even today, whether someone has a proper understanding of the Trinity or not has no bearing on salvation.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 4/28/2008 2:20:56 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide
I don't believe that the OT saints were indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Here's why:
Cornelius is described as "a devout man who feared God with all his household, gave alms generously to the people, and prayed continually to God" (Acts 10:2). Sounds like a saved man to me. Not to me it doesn't. This statement alone gives no indication of salvation. Many of the Pharisees were devout and gave alms to the poor.
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So, if what you say is true and he was already indwelt by the Holy Spirit, I've never said Cornelius was saved at this point. From the rest of the text it is obvious he was not. What I did say is that OT saints were saved the same way we are today - by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
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then Peter's trip to Caesarea was completely unnecessary and there was no need for him to tell Cornelius about Jesus since his salvation prior to his knowledge of Jesus was precisely the same as any salvation he might experience as a result of Peter's sermon. I agree, it was precisely for this reason that Peter was sent to preach the Gospel to Cornelius. It was at this time God brought him to salvation and then he was water baptized(Acts 10:47).
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"Now there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men from every nation under heaven" (Acts2:5). Again Peter's sermon would have been completely unnecessary since these men were already saved under the Old Testament. Being "devout" has absolutely no bearing on whether these OT Jews were saved or not. Again, many of the Pharisees were "devout" yet, Christ railed against them.
We see that Simeon saw the "salvation of the Lord" and the Holy Spirit revealed to him that he would not see death until he had seen the Messiah. This is an OT saint who believed in the coming Messiah and was indwelled by the Holy Spirit. And the same of Anna who spoke of the child in the Temple to all those who "looked for redemption".
The OT saints did not have the completed knowledge as we do; still, they believed in the coming Messiah for salvation. Exactly, as we believe in the Messiah who HAS come for salvation. There's no difference between the two - salvation is salvation - whether in the old or new testament times.
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And if you could give me an example of someone in the Old Testament who was permanently indwelled by the Holy Spirit, I'd appreciate it.  Could there be a better example than David?
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 4/28/2008 2:22:52 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
Indeed, there was a substantial change, but it was not in regard to the nature of salvation. It had to do with the extent of God's salvation program. Before Pentecost, only a few people believed and only a few people were qualified to be prophets - to declare God's Word. But, beginning at Pentecost, it was God's plan that there was to be an explosion of believers and each believer was to be mandated and qualified to bring the Gospel. I really think that God sent His only Son as a sacrifice into the world for more than merely to set off an explosion of believers. If that's all He wanted to accomplish seems like there might have been a less drastic way to accomplish it.
Please read what I wrote and respond to that - not to what you think I wrote. I was speaking of Pentecost and the very obvious change in the extent of God’s salvation program - not the Incarnation or Atonement.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 4/28/2008 2:27:15 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: Heavendweller
I've studied this subject of baptism almost to the point of exhaustion. I've read so many diverse opinions from Christian sources who claim the Scriptures speak on this issue plainly. Yet, what is presented before me is a plethora of interpretations from which to choose. What I've found interesting in my studies of baptism is that the plethora of interpretations didn't begin until Zwingli published his innovative interpretation of baptism. "In this matter of baptism," he decided, "all the doctors have been in error from the time of the apostles." (Zwingli, Huldreich. "Of Baptism." Zwingli and Bullinger. Library of Christian Classics, vol. 24. Ed. and tr. by G.W. Bromiley. Philadelphia: Westminster Press, 1953, pg. 130). And so in the years 1523 to 1525 he completely repudiated any connection between salvation and the time of baptism, and replaced this view with an explanation of baptism unknown up to that time.
I don't know about you but I think I'll go with the Apostles on this one instead of a man who came along 1500 years later.
If you follow your thoughts to their logical conclusion then you must adhere to the belief that salvation does not occur at water baptism since that is not what the "learned doctors" taught with whom Zwingli disagreed.
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Don't you think Zwingli's own statement shows that even he thought that his explanation was unknown up to that time? I mean if "all the doctors have been in error from the time of the apostles," then what he's saying must be something entirely new and hitherto unknown. Yes, he understood sins were not remitted in water - the "learned doctors" did not. They believed water baptism washed away original sin. Zwingli rightly understood this is not even within the realm of scriptural possibility.
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“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 4/28/2008 7:41:58 AM
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FreeGrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide
So, if what you say is true and he was already indwelt by the Holy Spirit, I've never said Cornelius was saved at this point. From the rest of the text it is obvious he was not. What I did say is that OT saints were saved the same way we are today - by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
kelman, God saves people on the basis of faith in Christ. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit is given on that same basis. Or, Gal 3:2,5 has no meaning.
v.2 "This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?"
v.5 "Does He then, who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?"
iow, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is given on the basis of faith in Christ, which is the same basis upon which we are saved.
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 4/28/2008 11:17:26 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1098
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
Where does Scripture ever imply that belief in "the general promises of a merciful God" saves? Besides, Scripture teaches Christ is the "Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world"; therefore, the effectiveness of the atonement reaches back into time to save. Maybe "saves" was the wrong word. In the Old Testament faith in the general promises of a merciful God made people acceptable to God. Whether means salvation or not is subject to interpretation I suppose.
In answer to your question, though, I immediately thought of Hebrews 11. All of the people listed there certainly exhibited faith in the promises of a merciful God, whether those promises concerned the coming Messiah or not. Therefore, their faith in the general promises of a merciful God made them acceptable to God.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 4/28/2008 11:27:52 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1098
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
When we read 1Peter 1:10-11, we see that the OT prophets prophesied of Christ and the Spirit of Christ was in them and preached to them. And, so we see the method of salvation was the same in the OT as the NT - we must be indwelled by the Holy Spirit and faith comes by the hearing of the Word. I don't deny 1 Peter 1:10-11. Certainly the Holy Spirit worked during Old Testament times. But I don't believe that He permanently indwelled every believer then, like He does now. He came upon certain people in the Old Testament, to give them the strength to carry out God's mission for them.
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greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 4/28/2008 11:39:10 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1098
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
And if you could give me an example of someone in the Old Testament who was permanently indwelled by the Holy Spirit, I'd appreciate it. Could there be a better example than David?
Good example! "And the Spirit of the Lord came mightily upon David from that day forward" (1 Samuel 16:13). I notice that the Word says "from that day forward" is if the Holy Spirit did not normally indwell someone permanently in those days. At a later time David pleaded with God to "not take Thy Holy Spirit from me" (Psalm 51:11), almost as if He thought God could actually do that! And in fact God did do that on occasion, "Now the Spirit of the Lord departed from Saul" (1 Samuel 16:14). Therefore, I don't believe that the Holy Spirit permanently indwelled every believer in Old Testament times in the same way He does today.
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greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 4/28/2008 10:30:04 PM
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PeterD
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Hello FreeGrace
Now, this is a profession of faith. btw, if you don't mind my asking. How old were you when you understood that Christ died for your sins personally, and you believed it? Thanks.
About 3 years after my confirmation, so I was 18 years old, Junior year of high school is when Jesus began opening my heart to Him. I will say after confirmation going to Sunday morning Church services was not as interesting. It was also during this time when my mom said God gave her strenght to move on from this Church and to another because of me. (not being properly fed she said) During this time my parent's started attending a PCA Church where my sister went with her husband 3 years before.
In faith I started bringing the Bible to school to read in my spare time. Other student's started asking me why I was reading this book and from that some other student's started asking me to find answers to there question's!!! My Senior year of High School was GREAT!!!
I can't exactly say what happened in my baptism but I was baptized In the Name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. And the way the Church and my parent's raised me must have also helped me to come to have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ my Junior year of high school.
PeterD
< Message edited by PeterD -- 4/28/2008 10:52:44 PM >
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 4/29/2008 5:29:25 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
Where does Scripture ever imply that belief in "the general promises of a merciful God" saves? Besides, Scripture teaches Christ is the "Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world"; therefore, the effectiveness of the atonement reaches back into time to save. Maybe "saves" was the wrong word. In the Old Testament faith in the general promises of a merciful God made people acceptable to God. Whether means salvation or not is subject to interpretation I suppose.
In answer to your question, though, I immediately thought of Hebrews 11. All of the people listed there certainly exhibited faith in the promises of a merciful God, whether those promises concerned the coming Messiah or not. Therefore, their faith in the general promises of a merciful God made them acceptable to God.
There is no one "acceptable" to God "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one" Rom 3:10 They only became "acceptable" when He gave them a new heart, a new spirit - exactly as salvation must happen today. "A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh." Eze 36:26
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 4/29/2008 5:32:29 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
And if you could give me an example of someone in the Old Testament who was permanently indwelled by the Holy Spirit, I'd appreciate it. Could there be a better example than David?
Good example! "And the Spirit of the Lord came mightily upon David from that day forward" (1 Samuel 16:13). I notice that the Word says "from that day forward" is if the Holy Spirit did not normally indwell someone permanently in those days. I think it's fairly obvious from the context that "from that day forward" is referring personally to David not to a general movement of the Holy Spirit.
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At a later time David pleaded with God to "not take Thy Holy Spirit from me" (Psalm 51:11), almost as if He thought God could actually do that! Simply because he was in the depths of despair over his sin. This psalm is the great example of repentance of sin.
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And in fact God did do that on occasion, "Now the Spirit of the Lord departed from Saul" (1 Samuel 16:14). Therefore, I don't believe that the Holy Spirit permanently indwelled every believer in Old Testament times in the same way He does today.
Saul is irrelevant here insofar as he was never a saved individual. You are correct, though, that the Holy Spirit sometimes "came upon" people to carry out the will of God by giving them special gifts - not spiritual gifts - similar to what we find in Exodus 31:3. We find He moved heathens to perform the will of God such as Cyrus king of Persia, Nebuchadnezzar or even wicked Balaam.
While we don't see it said of every OT believer, still, it is said of at least David and Job, that I know of. Then again, we don't see it said of every NT believer either; but, we know it must be just as it must be in the OT. As we've seen, God gives the new heart and the new spirit in the OT and in the NT which means they are all born again - the Holy Spirit dwells within each and every born again believer.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 4/29/2008 8:05:45 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1098
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
While we don't see it said of every OT believer, still, it is said of at least David and Job, that I know of. Then again, we don't see it said of every NT believer either; but, we know it must be just as it must be in the OT. As we've seen, God gives the new heart and the new spirit in the OT and in the NT which means they are all born again - the Holy Spirit dwells within each and every born again believer. Apparently you are correct regarding the Holy Spirit and David and Job. But those are only two people out of millions. Hardly a firm foundation on which to base a generalization.
Actually we do see it said of every NT believer. "For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit" (1 Corinthians 12:13). And I don't know that it has to be the same way in the OT. If you are refering to the passage in Ezekiel that you quoted, I take that to be prophecy.
I don't see any passages in the OT that indicate that a person must be born again to be acceptable to God. And BTW, while it is true that no one is acceptable God in their sinful state, I believe that in OT times, God accepted people based on their desire to keep His promises.
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greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 4/29/2008 4:41:57 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 5692
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PeterD
Hello FreeGrace
Now, this is a profession of faith. btw, if you don't mind my asking. How old were you when you understood that Christ died for your sins personally, and you believed it? Thanks.
When I was 7 y/o my mother explained the gospel to me and I understood that Jesus was the Son of God who died for my sins, and that I needed to place my faith/trust in Him as my Savior, which I did.
quote:
About 3 years after my confirmation, so I was 18 years old, Junior year of high school is when Jesus began opening my heart to Him. I will say after confirmation going to Sunday morning Church services was not as interesting. It was also during this time when my mom said God gave her strenght to move on from this Church and to another because of me. (not being properly fed she said) During this time my parent's started attending a PCA Church where my sister went with her husband 3 years before.
In faith I started bringing the Bible to school to read in my spare time. Other student's started asking me why I was reading this book and from that some other student's started asking me to find answers to there question's!!! My Senior year of High School was GREAT!!!
I can't exactly say what happened in my baptism but I was baptized In the Name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. And the way the Church and my parent's raised me must have also helped me to come to have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ my Junior year of high school.PeterD
I'm still not clear as to when you actually understood that Jesus is the Messiah and died for your sins personally, and you trusted in His work on the cross on your behalf. Thanks.
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 4/29/2008 8:02:31 PM
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PeterD
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Hello FreeGrace!
Is this what you are looking for...At age 18 I began reading the Bible on my own even sharing with others who Jesus is. After, I graduated high school at 19 sometime in my freshmen year college my parent's allowed me to stay at home during those college years. One day my parent's had a heating and airconditioning repairman come to the house. This man finished his work then I heard him talking to my mother about God so I went into the room where they were talking. And John that is his name, asked me who are you and I said Peter and this is my mom. John was someone my parent's knew before I was born but I didn't know that at the time. John then asked very boldly why did I come into the room and I said because I heard you speaking about God. At this point my mom became quiet and John began asking me if I know who Jesus is and what he has done for me. John began preaching John 3:16 and I was over joyed when John was affirming me that my faith in Jesus was growing in Love. John then removed a white cloth and a glass vile filled with oil from his coat and began to pray with my mom and me in Giving thanks to God the Father in Jesus name and John annointed my head and hands in Jesus name then he gave me some Bible passages to read and said to pay attention to them (Deuteronomy, Joshua, Psalms and the Gospel of John.)
Yes, I believe Jesus died for my sins and He is coming again to take all believers home, including me, with Him.
John is a pentecostal and every once in awhile he would write very strong Christian letters of encouragement to me during that time.
PeterD
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 4/29/2008 9:04:27 PM
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FreeGrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PeterD
Hello FreeGrace!
Is this what you are looking for...At age 18 I began reading the Bible on my own even sharing with others who Jesus is. After, I graduated high school at 19 sometime in my freshmen year college my parent's allowed me to stay at home during those college years. One day my parent's had a heating and airconditioning repairman come to the house. This man finished his work then I heard him talking to my mother about God so I went into the room where they were talking. And John that is his name, asked me who are you and I said Peter and this is my mom. John was someone my parent's knew before I was born but I didn't know that at the time. John then asked very boldly why did I come into the room and I said because I heard you speaking about God. At this point my mom became quiet and John began asking me if I know who Jesus is and what he has done for me. John began preaching John 3:16 and I was over joyed when John was affirming me that my faith in Jesus was growing in Love.
What I was looking for was when did you place your faith/trust in Jesus as your personal Savior, recognizing that He died in your place on the cross for your sins. As yet, I haven't seen where you indicated when you did.
Here, you note that John "affirmed that your faith was growing". But I was interested when you actually understood what Jesus did for you and you believed it and placed your trust in Him to save you. THanks.
quote:
Yes, I believe Jesus died for my sins and He is coming again to take all believers home, including me, with Him.
The question is, when did you believe that Jesus died for your sins? Thanks.
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 4/29/2008 10:05:22 PM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1098
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
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I once spoke with Haddon Robinson, former president of Denver Seminary, and he told me that he couldn't pinpoint a time when he actually began to believe that Jesus died for his sins, but he knew that he believed it. Perhaps the when of belief is as important as what you believe.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 4/29/2008 11:14:07 PM
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PeterD
Posts: 433
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Hello FreeGrace
I was baptized as an infant, raised up in a Christian family with it's up's and down's, heard the Word of God spoken in Church and at home, house Bible studies. I heard the Word of God from birth because I was given ears to hear. So between being baptized and 19 years old all this and more has happened. My sister taught me the Lord's prayer when I was 5 years old, my family and I pray in Jesus Name only. I was and still am brought up in a Christian household. The Lord Jesus seal of approval was put on me at baptism through water and the Word. I will say in my Junior year of high school I chose to open up the Bible on my own, I will say I now know that the Holy Spirit gave me understanding when reading that day.
But before that day, I don't remember having that ever before even while hearing it at church growing up. I was so captivated that I wouldn't put the Book down, so I brought the Bible to school to read and I told you about that already. I will say that that man John asked me, do you believe Jesus died for your sins and that you will be forgiven if you repent of your sins, I said yes and I have received Jesus as my Lord of Heaven and Earth and Savior from sin and death and I was baptized when I was a baby, after I said this the John annointed me with oil while the Word was being spoken, then he said receive the Holy Spirit. Man...it was here where 3 gathered in Jesus name (John, me and my mom) and agreed. I was affirmed in my faith that I have truely received Jesus in my heart and I confessed with my mouth that Jesus is Lord of my Life. I remember the next day being different even my mom viewed me different. It's a good thing that happened that day in Jesus Name.
Matthew 18:18-20
18Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. 19Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. 20For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them."
PeterD
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 4/29/2008 11:45:07 PM
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JesKlu
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Hello!
I was baptized as an infant too. I can't say either when I first believed, but I do know that I believe that Jesus is my Savior from sin and death and that's the important thing. Some people can't pinpoint a time when they started to believe, and that is ok. Pinpointing a time and place when you started to believe is not as important as believing that Jesus is your Savior and you know it. Conversion "experiences" are not important to all Christians, but it is a nice to hear sometimes. Believing in Jesus Christ and living your life out for Him is what is truly important.
For myself, I was raised as a Roman Catholic. I do remember, when I was 7 and made my first communion, that I was singing this song "I got the Joy of Jesus Down in my Heart" and I was excited knowing that Jesus was down deep in my heart and I let everyone in my house know, because there was a family gathering for my first communion. I don't remember anyone talking to me when I was singing this, so this was a personal thing that happened to me.
Even at this age, I remember knowing that Jesus was deep down in my heart and I will be with him in Heaven.
So many years has gone by, I am not attending a Roman Catholic Church anymore so I have given my baptismal papers to a Missouri Synod Lutheran Church where I will be giving my confession of faith/confirmation. Where I too, hope to say, in this communion of saints, that Jesus Christ is Lord of my life and He too has saved me from sin and death and I will be found with Him in Heaven. This is something I would like to say, in front of the Church that day, because I didn't get to say anything in the Catholic Church at confirmation. I just received oil on my forhead. But in the next few weeks, I will be professing my faith, and I'm excited, at this Missouri Synod Church.
Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica
< Message edited by JesKlu -- 4/29/2008 11:52:56 PM >
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And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 4/30/2008 5:15:06 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3368
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide
Apparently you are correct regarding the Holy Spirit and David and Job. But those are only two people out of millions. Hardly a firm foundation on which to base a generalization.
Not out of "millions". There were very few in the OT that were said to be saved. This is exactly what I meant about the change in the "extent" of God's salvation plan beginning at Pentecost where 3,000 were saved.
quote:
Actually we do see it said of every NT believer. "For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit" (1 Corinthians 12:13). What I meant is that we don't see it said of each individual that became saved. But yes, you're correct that Scripture says it generally of believers.
quote:
And I don't know that it has to be the same way in the OT. If you are refering to the passage in Ezekiel that you quoted, I take that to be prophecy. But what is your scriptural support that OT believers were not saved in the same manner as NT believers? As for Ezekiel, he is the prophet to Israel so it most certainly applied to Ancient Israel in the first instance; and, of course, applies to us today. God is clearly speaking to all "true" Israel and there were members of that Israel in Ancient Israel.
God says: "Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them."
You can't take God's promises away from the people He gave them to.
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I don't see any passages in the OT that indicate that a person must be born again to be acceptable to God. Well, what do you think the new heart and the new spirit is - the promise God made to Israel?
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And BTW, while it is true that no one is acceptable God in their sinful state, I believe that in OT times, God accepted people based on their desire to keep His promises. Are you saying these "acceptable" people are going into heaven with their dead spirit since they're not born again?
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“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 4/30/2008 7:05:12 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 5692
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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Peter D and JesKlu,
Thanks for your posts. I don't think it's all that important to be able to pinpoint any exact time/date when you believed, but I do want to make this very important point. No one is saved until they have understood the gospel offer of eternal life through faith in Jesus Christ and believe it. Only then does God give eternal life (john 6:40), justification (Rom 3:24-25), forgiveness (Acts 10:43).
Both of you mentioned infant baptism. Whether baptized as an infant or adult makes no difference. You are saved by grace through faith (Eph 2:8).
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved. Acts 16:31.
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 4/30/2008 8:00:00 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1098
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
Not out of "millions". There were very few in the OT that were said to be saved. This is exactly what I meant about the change in the "extent" of God's salvation plan beginning at Pentecost where 3,000 were saved. OK, maybe not "millions."
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greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 4/30/2008 8:08:47 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1098
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
What I meant is that we don't see it said of each individual that became saved. But yes, you're correct that Scripture says it generally of believers. So, is Ezekiel 36:26 the 1 Corinthians 12:13 of the Old Testament? That is, saying that generally all Old Testament believers are promised the Spirit of God in their lives. And if so, what are the conditions required for that to occur? Or does God just do it because He wants the people to be obedient to Him?
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greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 4/30/2008 8:13:09 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1098
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
But what is your scriptural support that OT believers were not saved in the same manner as NT believers? As for Ezekiel, he is the prophet to Israel so it most certainly applied to Ancient Israel in the first instance; and, of course, applies to us today. God is clearly speaking to all "true" Israel and there were members of that Israel in Ancient Israel.
God says: "Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them."
You can't take God's promises away from the people He gave them to.
You're right. I have no desire to take God's promises away from the people He gave them to. I don't know if its significant or not, but this is a promise. In the New Testament it's an accomplished fact. But maybe that doesn't make any difference, I don't know.
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greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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