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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 4/16/2008 6:24:08 PM
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abu_khomar
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: abu-khomar
Show this occurrence happening in scripture please. I believe I have and the verses I gave were dismissed as having either nothing to do with baptism or nothing to do with receiving the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit. But here are the verses again: Acts 2:38 -- Peter clearly says repent and be baptized for the remission of your sins and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Now, you can interpret that anyway you want but for me it answers your request. Another place where this happens is in Acts 9:17-18 where Ananias prayed for Saul of Tarsus and what happened as a result of that prayer. Again, you can interpret that any way you please, but for me it answers your request.
thanks for your response, but as I have already stated, acts 2:38 is open for different interpretations of the last part of the verse, the part referring to baptism. and acts 2:38 is not an occurrence of this actually happening. and occurrence would be something like examples of people being baptized as we see in acts 8, acts 10, and acts 19. However, they are not any that line up with your view. In fact, acts 10 contradicts your view, and acts 8 and acts 19 show people receiving the spirit of God AFTER being baptized, not AT baptism.
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 4/16/2008 8:53:27 PM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1190
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quote:
ORIGINAL: abu_khomar
thanks for your response, but as I have already stated, acts 2:38 is open for different interpretations of the last part of the verse, the part referring to baptism. and acts 2:38 is not an occurrence of this actually happening. and occurrence would be something like examples of people being baptized as we see in acts 8, acts 10, and acts 19. However, they are not any that line up with your view. In fact, acts 10 contradicts your view, and acts 8 and acts 19 show people receiving the spirit of God AFTER being baptized, not AT baptism. Like I said the verses I present are dismissed as either having nothing to do with baptism or having nothing to do with receiving the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit.
Perhaps its not so important when people receive the Holy Spirit as it is that they receive Him at all. It is interesting, though, that of the nine accounts of conversion in the book of Acts, all nine of them report that the people were baptized but only five of the nine say anything about receiving the Holy Spirit. It is also interesting that in all of the accounts you mentioned the people were baptized and received the Holy Spirit no matter what order it happened in.
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greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 4/16/2008 10:07:56 PM
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abu_khomar
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: abu_khomar
thanks for your response, but as I have already stated, acts 2:38 is open for different interpretations of the last part of the verse, the part referring to baptism. and acts 2:38 is not an occurrence of this actually happening. and occurrence would be something like examples of people being baptized as we see in acts 8, acts 10, and acts 19. However, they are not any that line up with your view. In fact, acts 10 contradicts your view, and acts 8 and acts 19 show people receiving the spirit of God AFTER being baptized, not AT baptism. Like I said the verses I present are dismissed as either having nothing to do with baptism or having nothing to do with receiving the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit.
Perhaps its not so important when people receive the Holy Spirit as it is that they receive Him at all. It is interesting, though, that of the nine accounts of conversion in the book of Acts, all nine of them report that the people were baptized but only five of the nine say anything about receiving the Holy Spirit. It is also interesting that in all of the accounts you mentioned the people were baptized and received the Holy Spirit no matter what order it happened in.
Yes, baptism is mentioned in all nine, but nothing is said and nothing is shown that there is a relation of receiving the holy spirit at baptism. we also know that the spirit can come after baptism, and some time after baptism, as we see in acts 8, so the incidences of their not being any mention of the spirit being given really is not that relevant because we know it can come after baptism.
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 4/17/2008 4:35:04 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: abu_khomar
Kel, the gift of the holy spirit is just that, a gift, it is not the gift of tongues, but the gift of the Spirit that God Himself gives. I agree with you, although, we do see in Acts 10:44-48 "tongues" called the gift of the Holy Spirit. This sign occurred very early on and in only four instances to indicate that the Gospel was to be brought to "Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth."
These are the very verses(Acts 10) which prove without a doubt that one receives the Holy Spirit before water baptism - "Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?"
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“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 4/17/2008 4:36:49 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide
Therefore, I cannot believe that these folks were regenerated before they received the gift of the Holy Spirit. Yes, I was wrong, both you and abu are correct. Acts 2:38 is not speaking of "tongues" when it speaks of the gift of the Holy Spirit. There are passages that do; but, this is not one of them. And, yes, of course, no one can be regenerated before receiving the Holy Spirit.
In any event, these passages are not speaking of water baptism - water is never mentioned at all. When we "receive", as they did in Acts 2:38-41, the word of the Gospel we are believing - we have faith - we have been baptized in the Holy Spirit - we have been regenerated.
And should you insist water is in view, and somehow I think you will :) they "gladly received" the Gospel, iow, they had already been saved since they evidenced faith and repentance - "For by grace are ye saved through faith.."
These verses in Acts 2 match the language of John 7:39 where Jesus promises that those who believe in Him are to receive the Holy Spirit.
"(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)"
In addition, the evidence is overwhelming in Acts 10 that regeneration takes place before water baptism.
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“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 4/17/2008 9:14:01 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1190
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
In any event, these passages are not speaking of water baptism - water is never mentioned at all. When we "receive", as they did in Acts 2:38-41, the word of the Gospel we are believing - we have faith - we have been baptized in the Holy Spirit - we have been regenerated. While water may not actually be mentioned it is understand because baptism inherently means in water. We use the term "baptized in the Holy Spirit" to distinguish that event from baptism in water which is normally termed simply "baptism." Therefore, unless the context states otherwise, I will assume that when the word "baptism" appears it means in water, even if water is not mentioned.
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greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 4/17/2008 9:32:04 AM
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greatdivide46
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It seems to me that as we read the conversion accounts in the book of Acts that it is expected that baptism and the giving of the Holy Spirit are always in close proximity no matter what order they occur in.
When the baptized Samaritans do not have the Holy Spirit, Luke explains the anomaly, as if it is expected that if they were baptized they would have the Holy Spirit (Acts 8:16). When an unbaptized Cornelius receives the Holy Spirit Luke explains the circumstances, as if it was unexpected that events would occur in this order. But however you look at it baptism and receiving the Holy Spirit were expected to normally occur together. And even though they were separated, in these two cases, they were eventually united in both events. Everyone who received the Spirit was baptized and everyone who was baptized received the Spirit. In fact, when Paul encountered some disciples in Ephesus, he asked them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you became believers?" Paul expected that they had, and when he discovered that their baptism was deficient he baptized them and the "Holy Spirit came upon them" (Acts 19:2, 6).
Conversion, baptism and receiving the Holy Spirit are interwoven. Luke connects them and no conversion story leaves the impression that there might be a Christian who has the Spirit but is unbaptized or that there is one who is baptized but has not received the Spirit. When either is the case, the other follows in order to complete the person's conversion.
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greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 4/17/2008 11:01:06 AM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1825
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
In any event, these passages are not speaking of water baptism - water is never mentioned at all. When we "receive", as they did in Acts 2:38-41, the word of the Gospel we are believing - we have faith - we have been baptized in the Holy Spirit - we have been regenerated. While water may not actually be mentioned it is understand because baptism inherently means in water. We use the term "baptized in the Holy Spirit" to distinguish that event from baptism in water which is normally termed simply "baptism." Therefore, unless the context states otherwise, I will assume that when the word "baptism" appears it means in water, even if water is not mentioned.
Kelman,
I'm not sure what you're saying.
With regard to Acts 2:38 specifically, I have to agree with GD. "Repent and be baptized" echoes pretty much the ministry of John the Baptist, fundamental to the coming of the Messiah and the kingdom. 2nd, the command to be baptized with the result that they would receive the gift of the HS makes absolutely no sense in the verse.
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Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 4/20/2008 2:46:59 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
With regard to Acts 2:38 specifically, I have to agree with GD. "Repent and be baptized" echoes pretty much the ministry of John the Baptist, fundamental to the coming of the Messiah and the kingdom. The verse says: "baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,"
Water baptism does not remit sins.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 4/20/2008 9:16:34 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1190
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
The verse says: "baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,"
Water baptism does not remit sins. Well, of course it doesn't. But you must admit, based on the verse you quoted, that there is some connection between baptism in the name of Jesus Christ and the remission of sins. I agree with John Stott who says that in the NT "baptism means water baptism unless in the context it is stated to the contrary."
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greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 4/20/2008 1:31:46 PM
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eschatologist
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jfaye
Are you saved but not baptized? If so, do you believe you have the Holy Spirit
indwelling you having 'believed' but not yet baptized?
I was baptized in the Catholic church when I was a baby. But I wasn't saved until I recieved Jesus at the age of 19. I have never been baptized in water since I was saved, but I have been baptized in the Holy spirit.
"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, by the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost, which He shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Lord (Titus 3:5-6)
Our sins are washed clean by the blood of the Lamb, and we are baptized in His Holy spirit. Water baptism is not essential for Salvation. It's only an outward show of an inward transformation, a way that some people can confess and show their Faith in Jesus. But if you show and confess your Faith in Jesus other ways, such as saying the sinners prayer or talking about your Faith to others, then you are still saved even if you never get baptized in water.
< Message edited by eschatologist -- 4/20/2008 1:41:43 PM >
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 4/20/2008 3:54:55 PM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1190
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quote:
ORIGINAL: eschatologist
But if you show and confess your Faith in Jesus other ways, such as saying the sinners prayer or talking about your Faith to others, then you are still saved even if you never get baptized in water.
Sounds good, but unfortunately there is nothing in the Bible that says we are saved by "saying the sinners prayer or talking about your faith to others." There are, however, a numbers of verses that make some kind of connection between baptism and salvation, and I believe that Titus 3:5-6 is one of them.
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greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 4/21/2008 12:56:47 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
"(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)"
In addition, the evidence is overwhelming in Acts 10 that regeneration takes place before water baptism.
Excellent points.
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 4/21/2008 1:26:02 PM
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FreeGrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
"(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)"
In addition, the evidence is overwhelming in Acts 10 that regeneration takes place before water baptism.
Excellent points.
And, that regeneration occurs with and not before faith. 
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 4/21/2008 2:35:00 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
There is some question as to whether Acts 10 portrays regeneration taking place before water baptism. But even if it does, its the only place in all of Scripture that does. So, I don't think I'll base my doctrine on a single example when there are multiple examples of it taking place in other orders.
For my illumination: If a passage is considered reliable as being a part of holy scripture, how many occurrences would it's information have to be repeated throughout scripture before it's worth including in one's formulation of a doctrine?
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 4/21/2008 4:16:43 PM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1190
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
For my illumination: If a passage is considered reliable as being a part of holy scripture, how many occurrences would it's information have to be repeated throughout scripture before it's worth including in one's formulation of a doctrine? Just once, if it's information is unique. However, in the case of Acts 10 the information is not unique. There are a number of passages in the book of Acts that report the conversions of people to Christianity. What is unique about Acts 10 is that it is the only conversion report that purportedly has regeneration occuring prior to baptism. Of the other nine conversion accounts in the book of Acts, two report that regeneration occured after baptism, two report that it occured at baptism, and five don't report when regeneration occured. Therefore, to base a doctrine on one account, in this case, is to dismiss eight other accounts of the same kind of event.
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greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 4/21/2008 5:57:43 PM
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abu_khomar
Posts: 103
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
For my illumination: If a passage is considered reliable as being a part of holy scripture, how many occurrences would it's information have to be repeated throughout scripture before it's worth including in one's formulation of a doctrine? Just once, if it's information is unique. However, in the case of Acts 10 the information is not unique. There are a number of passages in the book of Acts that report the conversions of people to Christianity. What is unique about Acts 10 is that it is the only conversion report that purportedly has regeneration occuring prior to baptism. Of the other nine conversion accounts in the book of Acts, two report that regeneration occured after baptism, two report that it occured at baptism, and five don't report when regeneration occured. Therefore, to base a doctrine on one account, in this case, is to dismiss eight other accounts of the same kind of event.
Where are two examples of people receiving the Spirit of God AT Baptism? What you could do is just agree based on the biblical accounts of acts that the spirit can come before or after baptism, because we see each happening.
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 4/21/2008 7:48:11 PM
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Heavendweller
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
Baptism is the normative way God's grace is conferred to us.
drmark's response: This is patently false since, by definition, grace is unearned, unmerited and undeserved favor. There is NOTHING we can do for God to confer or bestow grace on us! However, we do have a part to play in appropriating God's grace to our spiritual condition. That part is called FAITH and nothing in Scripture states that faith requires getting wet. It is "normative" for Christians to demonstrate their faith by undergoing baptism. That is a huge difference from God conferring grace to us during a human endeavor.
lgpreacherman: No it is not patently false! the definition of a sacrament as it has been for 2000 years is the outwardsign of an inner grace. it is the conference of Grace Just as the Supper is a means of grace but you still ned to actively partake of it. Ths is why infant baptism is legit because there is nothing the infant can do to merit grace it is done because God said to do it and in doing it Grace is confered.
Lg, Oddly enough, Martin Luther would have agreed with you on this! (smile)
Heavendweller
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 4/21/2008 8:18:38 PM
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Heavendweller
Posts: 576
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quote:
lgpreacherman:
Maybe you should all read my first post where I said you can be saved before baptism.
A_crucifiedman respnded: That's what you said but you also stated that infant baptism is the same as the believers baptism and they are not.
They're too young to make a conscious decision concerning the Lord Jesus Christ and water doesn't wash away sin; only remitted blood can do that and only the blood of the Lamb can suffice.
Conscious decision? Some would say that's a "works" oriented gospel which goes against "nor of the will of man" in St. John 1:13. Certainly Luther believed this. Which is why he believed baptism to be a sacrament. To quote Luther, "Baptism is not just plain water, but it is the water included in God's command and combined with God's word. It is nothing else than divine water, not that the water in itself is nobler than other water, but that God's Word and command are added to it." And Luther also believed that little children should be baptized when they are brought to Baptism by those who have authority over them, oddly enough using the citation from St. Mark's gospel ch.10:13-15.
quote:
That is why Jesus said to let all of the little children come unto Him.
This is the same passage that Luther used to defend baptizing infants and children. In Luther's words, "Babies are to be baptized because they are included in the words "all nations" (St. Matthew 28:19, Acts 2:38-39);Jesus especially invites little children to come to Him (St. Luke 18:15-18); As sinners, babies need what Baptism offers. St.John 3:5-6, Ephesians 2:3, St. Matthew 18:6."
There are still many Protestant denominations that baptize infants. The Presbyterian OPC & PCA are insistant on this as well as many Methodists, United Churches of Christ and Churches of Christ.
Heavendweller
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 4/21/2008 8:29:24 PM
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Heavendweller
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jfaye
If infant baptism saves, then how come there are so many who have undergone it and never
bore fruit in their lives, consistent with one who loves and follows God, having a love for Him above
all else?
jfaye,
The same could be said of many who have professed belief in Christ as an adult and have undergone "Believer's Baptism." I've met Lutherans who are very devoted to Christ as well as other Christians who have been baptized as infants. I don't think it's an either/or understanding.
Heavendweller
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 4/21/2008 9:05:33 PM
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Heavendweller
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lgpreacherman
"Lord I believe help my unbelief"
Clearly Belief is not something that comes natural to everyone. Some people need to labor over it. For those who experience the "Dark Night of the Soul" it is a labor to keep up belief, it would be much easier to scrap the whole thing for these people
I concur lg.
"Take care brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil unbelieving heart causing you to fall away from the living God. But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called today, that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin."
"Brethren, I do not consider that I have made it my own; but one thing I do, forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus." Philipppians 3:13-14
And he said to all, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me." St. Luke 9:23
"He who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me." St. Matthew 10:38
"Whoever does not bear his won cross and come after me, cannot be my disciple." St. Luke 14:27
Seems Christ expects us to do something. Seems faith and belief require some kind of response, some kind of action, from us. A....doing something.
Now before anyone jumps on me, I realize these verses apply to one who is already a Christian.
Heavendweller
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RE: Are you saved but not baptized? - 4/21/2008 9:40:19 PM
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Heavendweller
Posts: 576
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
"Why would anybody disagree to get baptised while claiming to be saved? that would be really strange behaivor, indicative of not being in faith as of yet ...."
WildByNature: "Who are you to judge someone's faith? It is not a matter of "disagreeing to get baptized" as if one is wilfully disobeying a command to be water baptized. It is simply that not all Christians believe we are commanded to be baptized in water. Water baptism is not salvific, so whether or not someone is baptized in water has no bearing on their faith or salvation. Wild,
Your reply makes sense if one's faith tradition teaches them that Baptism is only a symbol and nothing else. If there is no effect from doing it, then why do it, right? Which would beg the question, does Christ command us to do things that really have no effect if we do them?
Heavendweller
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