RE: Bad idea to pray together? (Full Version)

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shadowspring -> RE: Bad idea to pray together? (3/31/2008 5:58:44 PM)

quote:

no one said prayer causes sin, or that God tempts.


Actually the quote form the book was that
quote:

And I will also mention that the chapter had the following quote:
"A couple that PRAYS together LAYS together"


So people are saying exactly that prayer causes fornication. I can't get any other meaning out of that quote.

Your opinion that if I do A, it might result in my being tempted to do B, so no one should ever do A, that is just plain foolish.

That's why Orthodox Jews have separate dishes, refrigerators, and serving utensils for meat and dairy. The law says you should not cook a kid in its mother's milk. But just to be on the safe side, someone decided, let's not let any dairy touch any meat. Then it became let's not any item that touched dairy touch meat. Rules made by men. Sheesh.

That's what this new "rule" that men and women cannot pray together is- just another foolish rule made by men.

I'll stick to the Word of God, thank you. [:)]



OLEEguacamole -> RE: Bad idea to pray together? (3/31/2008 6:21:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: shadowspring

quote:

no one said prayer causes sin, or that God tempts.


Actually the quote form the book was that
quote:

And I will also mention that the chapter had the following quote:
"A couple that PRAYS together LAYS together"


So people are saying exactly that prayer causes fornication. I can't get any other meaning out of that quote.

Your opinion that if I do A, it might result in my being tempted to do B, so no one should ever do A, that is just plain foolish.

That's why Orthodox Jews have separate dishes, refrigerators, and serving utensils for meat and dairy. The law says you should not cook a kid in its mother's milk. But just to be on the safe side, someone decided, let's not let any dairy touch any meat. Then it became let's not any item that touched dairy touch meat. Rules made by men. Sheesh.

That's what this new "rule" that men and women cannot pray together is- just another foolish rule made by men.

I'll stick to the Word of God, thank you. [:)]

it means prayer is intimate and intimacy between a man and a woman can lead to physical intimacy.

it does not mean pray less. it means pray under different circumstances.

it's not a rule. it's wise counsel. the bible encourages wise counsel.



TMeeks -> RE: Bad idea to pray together? (3/31/2008 8:26:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Striving2BVirtuous
I agree 100% here. I just recently met and have been out on a couple of dates with a head Pastor who told me that slept with his associate pastor's daughter from his church. And that situation resulted in the associate Pastor leaving the church. This man is 37 years old.

With THAT being said, we are not only discussing this issue as it applies to the youth and college age individuals, but ADULTS as well who are serving in key positions within our churches.

If this is the same pastor that wants to marry you.... RUN and RUN very, very, VERY Fast!!!



TMeeks -> RE: Bad idea to pray together? (3/31/2008 8:32:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: shadowspring

quote:

no one said prayer causes sin, or that God tempts.


Actually the quote form the book was that
quote:

And I will also mention that the chapter had the following quote:
"A couple that PRAYS together LAYS together"


So people are saying exactly that prayer causes fornication. I can't get any other meaning out of that quote.

Your opinion that if I do A, it might result in my being tempted to do B, so no one should ever do A, that is just plain foolish.

That's why Orthodox Jews have separate dishes, refrigerators, and serving utensils for meat and dairy. The law says you should not cook a kid in its mother's milk. But just to be on the safe side, someone decided, let's not let any dairy touch any meat. Then it became let's not any item that touched dairy touch meat. Rules made by men. Sheesh.

That's what this new "rule" that men and women cannot pray together is- just another foolish rule made by men.

I'll stick to the Word of God, thank you. [:)]

You might want to check out your church history.

In the earliest church, men and women were COMPLETELY separated during a meeting and NO man and girl would EVER be allowed to pray together in the same fashion as a date. They didn't DATE!!!

Dating is a relatively new custom. History of Dating in the America.

Here is another History of Dating.

And, still another.

And, now for a bit of church history and the separate seating of men and women in the early church.

One web site had this to say:

Finally, the 3rd/4th century Apostolic Constitutions has a long section entitled “On Assembling In The Church”. It is much more specific than the Justyn Martyr account on issues such as:

Where different groups in the church are supposed to sit (men and women, young and old are separated)

The layout of the church itself. The description given is similar to later monastic churches.

The roles of various church officials during the service – bishops, priests, deacons and deaconesses, porters and presbyters are mentioned, all with distinct roles

You would not have many of the early church fathers (or mothers) taking your position.



Striving2BVirtuous -> RE: Bad idea to pray together? (3/31/2008 9:44:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TMeeks

quote:

ORIGINAL: Striving2BVirtuous
I agree 100% here. I just recently met and have been out on a couple of dates with a head Pastor who told me that slept with his associate pastor's daughter from his church. And that situation resulted in the associate Pastor leaving the church. This man is 37 years old.

With THAT being said, we are not only discussing this issue as it applies to the youth and college age individuals, but ADULTS as well who are serving in key positions within our churches.

If this is the same pastor that wants to marry you.... RUN and RUN very, very, VERY Fast!!!


Yep...this is the same guy. And as I mentioned, he has been engaged twice before and the last girl was only 25 years old. And if he had the same heavy conversations with her that he has had with me so far...then I can understand why she decided that it wasn't something that she wanted or was ready for. He feels that he can meet someone and MAKE it work. He doesn't understand needing to have a "connection" with a woman for things to progress naturally and mutually.



TMeeks -> RE: Bad idea to pray together? (3/31/2008 10:42:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Striving2BVirtuous

quote:

ORIGINAL: TMeeks

quote:

ORIGINAL: Striving2BVirtuous
I agree 100% here. I just recently met and have been out on a couple of dates with a head Pastor who told me that slept with his associate pastor's daughter from his church. And that situation resulted in the associate Pastor leaving the church. This man is 37 years old.

With THAT being said, we are not only discussing this issue as it applies to the youth and college age individuals, but ADULTS as well who are serving in key positions within our churches.

If this is the same pastor that wants to marry you.... RUN and RUN very, very, VERY Fast!!!


Yep...this is the same guy. And as I mentioned, he has been engaged twice before and the last girl was only 25 years old. And if he had the same heavy conversations with her that he has had with me so far...then I can understand why she decided that it wasn't something that she wanted or was ready for. He feels that he can meet someone and MAKE it work. He doesn't understand needing to have a "connection" with a woman for things to progress naturally and mutually.

I will reply in the other thread. This really changes things. He is probably a dangerous person to have in a pulpit.



Melitac -> RE: Bad idea to pray together? (3/31/2008 11:49:34 PM)

WWJD?

Or rather What DID Jesus Do?
What example of prayer did He give us?



TMeeks -> RE: Bad idea to pray together? (4/1/2008 12:43:29 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Melitac

WWJD?

Or rather What DID Jesus Do?
What example of prayer did He give us?

I didn't know he dated? [sm=shocked.gif]



Focusing -> RE: Bad idea to pray together? (4/1/2008 1:52:37 PM)

Wow! This is a wild thread! But it's all good.

I guess because I'm not that young any longer, and I know how to exercise self-control and discipline, and am able to separate my prayer life and having deeply spiritual discussions with a man (which is how I define sharing spiritual intimacy) versus wanting to hop into bed with him, I will stick with my opinion that praying together does not lead to sex.

However, I will agree that young people, or even those new to the faith (okay, even those old to the faith, but lacking the fruits of self-control and disclipline) could be tempted into *blending* these things together.

This may be slightly off topic, but perhaps not, but could it fall under the realm of understanding various types of love? I have seen far too often male/female relationships go from friend to lover because of what I would call a lack of defined boundaries.

For instance, a man and a woman get together for a Bible study. There is sharing of faith, a mentor/mentee situation, he is teaching her some deep spiritual truths. Rather than taking it as a teaching relationship, the fondness and appreciation turn into a romance. However, is it truly a romance, or is it simply a crush, an infatuation with the other?

I would agree that it is best for us to stick with a mentor of the same sex, for many reasons, this discussion being one. But I do believe a man and a woman can share spiritual intimacy without it leading to the bedroom.


Then again, I could be the odd one out who feel this way. It has not posed a problem for me in the past, nor does it at the present time.




Striving2BVirtuous, you need to stay away from that pastor. There are so many red flags, no other color is visible. He clearly has a serious lack of self-control. He needs to step down from the pulpit and get himself some counseling. He is taking advantage of women in vulnerable situations. He clearly does not respect women, nor does he have any boundaries. Chances are he won't stop even if you were to get involved with him. He has some very serious heart issues to deal with, and he needs to get himself right before God.

Do not be deceived by his words or smooth talk. It's called manipulation, and manipulation has no place in a relationship centered around God. It is not a word that one thinks of when reflecting on the word LOVE.

While it's good to read books about relationships, and have lively conversations with others online, consult God. What does He have to say about all this? If you have any doubts, any questions, any concerns whatsoever about this man, you need to seperate yourself from everyone and everything for a time - maybe a few hours, maybe an entire weekend - and commune with God. Seek His direction, not ours and not some book's. If you humble your heart and truly seek after Him, He will guide your path. One thing you can be assured of is that He has your absolutely best interests at heart.



OLEEguacamole -> RE: Bad idea to pray together? (4/1/2008 9:44:24 PM)

what ancient practise is being recreated or layed out as a rule here? it was only pointed out that "dating" and male/female prayer and study didn't even occur then.

why would the bible speak to dating when dating wasn't practised, etc?



sunluvingirl -> RE: Bad idea to pray together? (4/1/2008 10:31:41 PM)

I will say once again, I agree with ShadowSpring. A born-again, Spirit-led Christian will NOT all of a sudden be commiting fornication. It is a CHOICE resulting from a heart who is not in tune with God. And if we are talking of carnal, unconverted young people commiting fornication, then their sin is not fornication but simply not being born again. And you can set the boundaries as high and as wide as you want & IT WILL NOT CHANGE THEIR HEARTS! As for how our brain works, well I am sorry but if we are walking in the Spirit then He will be in control of our brain too. How much sense does it make to say God created our brains to work in such a way that we must avoid praying to Him in certain situations because we might sin??!! And seriously, if two young people are not the kind who are mature enough to be trusted to pray together then I really don't think they are going to be praying anyway when they are together. That is why this is such a silly, pointless discussion!! I am not trying to be arrogant but God's word still says: from the HEART spring the issues of life, not from the brain.



shadowspring -> RE: Bad idea to pray together? (4/1/2008 10:34:55 PM)

Tmeeks,

I am and have been working with young people for twenty years. I have been married for twenty-one years. I have been serving the Lord with all my heart for twenty-six years. The Lord's blessing on my life is rich, and I enjoy watching Him work in the lives I touch every day.

The Lord has blessed me with many wonderful opportunities to pray with many righteous and godly people. In fact, prayer is the single most important and satisfying part of my relationships with other believers. Not because it makes me intimate with them, but because it makes US intimate with the FATHER GOD.[:)]

I have not ever even thought of getting in an illicit sexual relationship with anyone I have ever prayed with. Not once.

I was celibate from becoming a sold-out believer twenty-six years ago until I married my one and only husband five years later. I have remained faithful to him and would NEVER betray the Lord or my husband's trust in me by sinning against our marriage vows.

I know the Lord will keep me from straying. I completely trust in Him, and I seek Him with all my heart every day. I will never turn away from Jesus.

Prayer is a holy activity. It is not "intimate" with others, it is intimacy with the Holy One Himself.

How anyone can get from the throne of grace to the bed of an adulterer is beyond me. I really don't see how anyone who knows the Lord can possibly come to that conclusion.

But I know that I sure would not pray with them! Creepy. [:(]



OLEEguacamole -> RE: Bad idea to pray together? (4/1/2008 10:37:37 PM)

so no such thing as a genuine christian falling into sexual sin? "take heed lest you fall" means what?



sunluvingirl -> RE: Bad idea to pray together? (4/1/2008 10:47:11 PM)

There is no such thing as a christian who is truly seeking guidance from the Holy Spirit falling into sin because he was praying with a person of the opposite sex.



TMeeks -> RE: Bad idea to pray together? (4/1/2008 11:10:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: junerose79

I will say once again, I agree with ShadowSpring. A born-again, Spirit-led Christian will NOT all of a sudden be commiting fornication. It is a CHOICE resulting from a heart who is not in tune with God. And if we are talking of carnal, unconverted young people commiting fornication, then their sin is not fornication but simply not being born again. And you can set the boundaries as high and as wide as you want & IT WILL NOT CHANGE THEIR HEARTS! As for how our brain works, well I am sorry but if we are walking in the Spirit then He will be in control of our brain too. How much sense does it make to say God created our brains to work in such a way that we must avoid praying to Him in certain situations because we might sin??!! And seriously, if two young people are not the kind who are mature enough to be trusted to pray together then I really don't think they are going to be praying anyway when they are together. That is why this is such a silly, pointless discussion!! I am not trying to be arrogant but God's word still says: from the HEART spring the issues of life, not from the brain.

JuneRose79,

I fully understand why you feel this way. You believe in prayer. And, so do I.

But, I also believe in being wise in a Christian life. And, while you are right that the Bible's wonderful focus on our heart. But, what you may NOT have known is that there is a mini-brain in the heart that links directly to the emotional center of the brain. We actually THINK with our heart as well as the brain. They work together.

If a young couple wants to pray, then let them pray in proximity to their parents and let them not touch each other. I would be OK with that.

I know that if every Christian was 'Spirit Filled' then there would probably not be a problem. But, Christians run the gamut of spiritual maturity. When a person writes a book they must account for that wide range of maturity. When a youth leader teaches young people we're responsible for teaching every one of them... not just the 'Spirit Filled' super spiritual ones. We need to help protect the weak and the strong.

How much sense does it make to say God created our brains to work in such a way that we must avoid praying to Him in certain situations because we might sin??!!

Believe me, a LOT. Some of those that ignore that advice will, unfortunately, find out. By the way, did you know that there was at least one other book on dating that gives the very same advice. Here are other web sites that offer similar advice.

AdamMeetEve web site

Christian-life-Advisor web site



TMeeks -> RE: Bad idea to pray together? (4/1/2008 11:24:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: shadowspring

Tmeeks,

I am and have been working with young people for twenty years. I have been married for twenty-one years. I have been serving the Lord with all my heart for twenty-six years. The Lord's blessing on my life is rich, and I enjoy watching Him work in the lives I touch every day.

The Lord has blessed me with many wonderful opportunities to pray with many righteous and godly people. In fact, prayer is the single most important and satisfying part of my relationships with other believers. Not because it makes me intimate with them, but because it makes US intimate with the FATHER GOD.[:)]

I have not ever even thought of getting in an illicit sexual relationship with anyone I have ever prayed with. Not once.

I was celibate from becoming a sold-out believer twenty-six years ago until I married my one and only husband five years later. I have remained faithful to him and would NEVER betray the Lord or my husband's trust in me by sinning against our marriage vows.

I know the Lord will keep me from straying. I completely trust in Him, and I seek Him with all my heart every day. I will never turn away from Jesus.

Prayer is a holy activity. It is not "intimate" with others, it is intimacy with the Holy One Himself.

How anyone can get from the throne of grace to the bed of an adulterer is beyond me. I really don't see how anyone who knows the Lord can possibly come to that conclusion.

But I know that I sure would not pray with them! Creepy. [:(]

I'm afraid that we are simply talking apples and oranges.

I'm not talking about married women in their late 30s or 40s. You are NOT dating. I'm not actually even talking about a teenager of 20 years ago.

I'm focused on a 16 year old in today's sexually driven cultural environment. For hormone driven 16 year olds, to be alone in a car or home praying, I can assure you, CAN be a dangerous situation.

You are taking YOUR spiritual maturity and extrapolating that to assume that today's young Christians, that might want to pray together, are going to have your level of spiritual maturity. I'm sorry. But, that just isn't realistic. I know that I can pray with someone alone without having sexual feelings. But, I'm 64 and happily married. I'm NOT 16 with raging hormones in a sexually driven culture!!! [:o]



TMeeks -> RE: Bad idea to pray together? (4/1/2008 11:41:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: junerose79

There is no such thing as a christian who is truly seeking guidance from the Holy Spirit falling into sin because he was praying with a person of the opposite sex.

You are making the assumption that teenagers praying together implies spiritual maturity. I can assure you it does not. Years ago, when I was a youth director, a teenager came forward for prayer. So, we asked her what she wanted to pray about, thinking is was something to further her Christian walk.

She told us that she had a boy friend that her parents wouldn't allow her to see. And, she wanted prayer to ask God to make her parents let her see him. This is the spiritual condition of many 16 year olds in the church. And, THIS is the target market of the book.

Those of us giving advice should NEVER make the mistake of extrapolating our maturity to all young Christians. The word 'truly' is the operative word. Some young people in our churches reading Christian books on dating, see prayer as the good luck charm to keep they and their dating partner together.

I don't know how old you are. I don't know if you are married or dating. But, I do know that not all those dating will have the same level of maturity that you have. So, in making my recommendation, I'm not thinking about you. I'm thinking of them.



DreadPirateRandy -> RE: Bad idea to pray together? (4/2/2008 3:26:38 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: junerose79

That is why this is such a silly, pointless discussion!!


That would sum up four pages worth of replies.



iwillfearnoevil -> RE: Bad idea to pray together? (4/2/2008 8:56:48 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TMeeks
I'm focused on a 16 year old in today's sexually driven cultural environment. For hormone driven 16 year olds, to be alone in a car or home praying, I can assure you, CAN be a dangerous situation.


i guess this wasn't an april fools day thread ... i see good points on each side but there are much worse things than teens who are alone can be doing than praying ... i see the aloneness as more of a cause for falling than their praying. if holding hands? and talking to God in an intimate environment for 10 minutes causes a stumble, what will cuddling up while watching a movie a 2 hour movie in the dark at a friends house do?



TMeeks -> RE: Bad idea to pray together? (4/2/2008 3:35:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: iwillfearnoevil

quote:

ORIGINAL: TMeeks
I'm focused on a 16 year old in today's sexually driven cultural environment. For hormone driven 16 year olds, to be alone in a car or home praying, I can assure you, CAN be a dangerous situation.


i guess this wasn't an april fools day thread ... i see good points on each side but there are much worse things than teens who are alone can be doing than praying ... i see the aloneness as more of a cause for falling than their praying. if holding hands? and talking to God in an intimate environment for 10 minutes causes a stumble, what will cuddling up while watching a movie a 2 hour movie in the dark at a friends house do?

That's a very good question. [sm=shocked.gif] ..or maybe.. [sm=icon_smile_yikes.gif]

But, it's an entirely different topic having no bearing on the soundness of the original advice. [:)]



TMeeks -> RE: Bad idea to pray together? (4/2/2008 3:48:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RatherDashing

quote:

ORIGINAL: junerose79

That is why this is such a silly, pointless discussion!!


That would sum up four pages worth of replies.

What may seem silly to some, can be seen as extremely important to others. [:)]

My understanding is that you are at a Bible College and your goal is to be a youth director. If so, let me ask you to ask each of your professors and the dean of students what their opinion is on this advice.

And, here's how I'd phrase the question.

"I'm training to be a Youth Director and I'd like to get your opinion on the advice that I should give the teenagers under my care about praying together when dating. Do you think it is a safe idea for teens to pray together on dates or not?"

As a real youth director at one point in my life, with real responsibility for the spiritual well-being of real teenagers, I had to settle that question in my own mind. And, you know which side of the fence I came down on. So, I'd be very interested in their take on it.

And... in spite of our differences of opinion, I'm still available if you ever have a question about video and ministry or any video or audio related issue. I'm always interested when people are interested in video and ministry.[:D]



Focusing -> RE: Bad idea to pray together? (4/3/2008 12:16:01 PM)

I've been rolling this subject around in my mind. There are a lot of points that have been expressed - a lot of good points! [:)]

Perhaps it's the depth of the prayer, the type of prayer, the kind of Bible study? For instance, the weekly Bible study I attend is a combination of men and women. When we go about choosing the next study we will do, I definitely take into account the personal nature of the study. Some I feel are inapproriate for study in a combined male/female group.

The reason I bring this up is because I do believe in a dating relationship, sharing faith with each other is very important. And (imo) learning how another's faith has developed and is developing is important, and it takes time - discussing our relationships with God, what we believe, learning what the other believes.

Yes, praying together creates a bond between two people. But, would one want to continue dating another, or eventually marry another, without having the opportunity to create this bond?

I agree that teenagers (and even older) have the hormonal influence going against them. That's a given. And allowing them to be alone, unsupervised, in an intimate setting is just not a good idea. However, I do believe praying together is a part of sharing our spirituality with another, and is an important component in a serious relationship.

So, I'm wondering, how do we as parents allow young people to share this part of their faith, and still keep those boundaries firmly in place?

I admit I am looking towards the next years as my son heads into those glorious teenage years, and I have a pretty keen interest in knowing the best way to guide him in this matter.



OLEEguacamole -> RE: Bad idea to pray together? (4/3/2008 12:50:30 PM)

not praying together while dating is really not a huge restriction. it's only about praying ALONE. it's also not that bonding is being avoided. it's premature and/or accelerated bonding that is being avoided.



amyk -> RE: Bad idea to pray together? (4/3/2008 1:53:50 PM)

quote:

"I'm training to be a Youth Director and I'd like to get your opinion on the advice that I should give the teenagers under my care about praying together when dating. Do you think it is a safe idea for teens to pray together on dates or not?"


If they are on dates anyway, I would think praying together would be the safest thing that they could do.

Isn't the real question whether or not they should be alone together?

Doesn't conversing with people also bond you to them? So should all conversing between two people of the opposite sex be stopped? In that case, shouldn't we just have arranged marriages or only allow group dating or something?

I just do not think it is the praying together that is the problem. So I would say, no it is not a bad idea to pray together. However, if you cannot control yourself, it may be a bad idea to be alone together, whether praying or otherwise.



1love1God1way -> RE: Bad idea to pray together? (4/3/2008 2:40:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mrsdash

not praying together while dating is really not a huge restriction. it's only about praying ALONE. it's also not that bonding is being avoided. it's premature and/or accelerated bonding that is being avoided.


God doesn't want us to be bonded quickly? That's a very American perspective, I guess.



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