quote:

since when do only those with "adulterous hearts" fall into temptation or sin? aren't we ALL capable of falling?

quote:

Mark 7:14 Again Jesus called the crowd to him and said, "Listen to me, everyone, and understand this. 15Nothing outside a man can make him 'unclean' by going into him. Rather, it is what comes out of a man that makes him 'unclean.' "[f]

17After he had left the crowd and entered the house, his disciples asked him about this parable. 18"Are you so dull?" he asked. "Don't you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him 'unclean'? 19For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body." (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods "clean.")

20He went on: "What comes out of a man is what makes him 'unclean.' 21For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, 22greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. 23All these evils come from inside and make a man 'unclean.' "

quote:

James 1:13 When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. 15Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.

quote:

ORIGINAL: shadowspring

quote:

But, you are wrong about hugging and anyone that has worked in a church setting for very long knows exactly what I mean. A short hug is non-sexual. A LONG hug can, and for countless people in our churches HAS, been the beginning of an affair within the church. You can deny it from your experience. But, the reality is there.

Nope, the hug was not the cause of adulterous thoughts. Adulterous thoughts were the cause of the inappropriately long hug.

Of all people, I would expect you to understand that it is what come out of the heart that causes us to sin.

Prayer, reading the Bible together, and hugging are not sinful nor do they breed sin in our lives.

Do people with sinful hearts use these as a cover-up for their adulterous intentions? I'm sure it could happen.

But the book should be counseling folk to avoid people with adulterous hearts and actions, not avoid praying together as a couple.

Many, many righteous couples who walk before God with pure hearts can and should pray together, especially about their future together. It is just crazy to condemn prayer as a sinful thing for anyone.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mrsdash

prayer does not lead to the temptaion the intimacy of prayer can.

my point above is, appetites can be awakened.

quote:

ORIGINAL: RatherDashing
I'm not trying to disagree with the valid cautions you've made because I understand them. I heed the preventative measure.

But there is an element called willpower. It's often not exercised as much among couples today, but I believe in it.

quote:

Did you know, for instance, that if a man wants a woman to have amorous thoughts a bit of baby powder behind the ears works as well as the most expensive cologne?

quote:

ORIGINAL: shadowspring

quote:

since when do only those with "adulterous hearts" fall into temptation or sin? aren't we ALL capable of falling?

I'm not sure what you are asking here? Are you asking whether anyone is capable of adultery? Or are you asking where sin originates, in the heart or in circumstantial (external) forces? Clearly sin originates within us, as the Lord and James declared:

quote:

Mark 7:14 Again Jesus called the crowd to him and said, "Listen to me, everyone, and understand this. 15Nothing outside a man can make him 'unclean' by going into him. Rather, it is what comes out of a man that makes him 'unclean.' "[f]

17After he had left the crowd and entered the house, his disciples asked him about this parable. 18"Are you so dull?" he asked. "Don't you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him 'unclean'? 19For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body." (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods "clean.")

20He went on: "What comes out of a man is what makes him 'unclean.' 21For from within, out of men's hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, 22greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. 23All these evils come from inside and make a man 'unclean.' "

quote:

James 1:13 When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. 15Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.

Certainly all people are capable of sin, but that does not mean we are all equally tempted by the same things.

I do agree that if you are already experiencing temptation in your thought life, you should not be alone with the person you are sexually desiring, not even to, ahem, pray.

But that does not mean that praying with a bf/gf will entice any and every couple to sin sexually together against the Lord!

People who commit sexual sin do so in response to their personal, internal struggles with lust.

Prayer does NOT lead to fornication!

quote:

ORIGINAL: junerose79

I am sorry, but there is NO WAY that by coming to God in sincere,heartfelt prayer & seeking his direction that this will cause two born-again Christians to fall into sin! This is so completely against God's word its not even funny. If PRAYER is going to cause us to sin, what chance have we??! Over & over in the NT we are instructed to 'pray without ceasing', 'continue instant in prayer', 'be sober & watch unto prayer'. Paul did not say, "It is good for a man not to pray with a woman"!! James 1:14: If we sin it is because we are drawn away of our own LUST. GOD DOES NOT TEMPT US. And if we are going to say that prayer to God causes us to sin than we are saying that God tempts us. Of course prayer will result in a spiritual closeness in relationships with each other & with God but the closer we draw to God the LESS likely we are to sin. If our relationships are so shaky that prayer will cause sinful desires, than, Lord have mercy, somewhere there lies a serious problem!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Liveloved

quote:

Did you know, for instance, that if a man wants a woman to have amorous thoughts a bit of baby powder behind the ears works as well as the most expensive cologne?

But TMeeks, you didn't tell us whose ears get the powder???

quote:

ORIGINAL: junerose79

I am sorry, but there is NO WAY that by coming to God in sincere,heartfelt prayer & seeking his direction that this will cause two born-again Christians to fall into sin! This is so completely against God's word its not even funny. If PRAYER is going to cause us to sin, what chance have we??! Over & over in the NT we are instructed to 'pray without ceasing', 'continue instant in prayer', 'be sober & watch unto prayer'. Paul did not say, "It is good for a man not to pray with a woman"!! James 1:14: If we sin it is because we are drawn away of our own LUST. GOD DOES NOT TEMPT US. And if we are going to say that prayer to God causes us to sin than we are saying that God tempts us. Of course prayer will result in a spiritual closeness in relationships with each other & with God but the closer we draw to God the LESS likely we are to sin. If our relationships are so shaky that prayer will cause sinful desires, than, Lord have mercy, somewhere there lies a serious problem!

quote:

ORIGINAL: TMeeks

quote:

ORIGINAL: junerose79

I am sorry, but there is NO WAY that by coming to God in sincere,heartfelt prayer & seeking his direction that this will cause two born-again Christians to fall into sin! This is so completely against God's word its not even funny. If PRAYER is going to cause us to sin, what chance have we??! Over & over in the NT we are instructed to 'pray without ceasing', 'continue instant in prayer', 'be sober & watch unto prayer'. Paul did not say, "It is good for a man not to pray with a woman"!! James 1:14: If we sin it is because we are drawn away of our own LUST. GOD DOES NOT TEMPT US. And if we are going to say that prayer to God causes us to sin than we are saying that God tempts us. Of course prayer will result in a spiritual closeness in relationships with each other & with God but the closer we draw to God the LESS likely we are to sin. If our relationships are so shaky that prayer will cause sinful desires, than, Lord have mercy, somewhere there lies a serious problem!

Wow! You've really got our position completely wrong. Completely.

We are talking about the SITUATION and NOT "sincere,heartfelt prayer & seeking his direction" in a general sense.

Not all that passes for "sincere,heartfelt prayer & seeking his direction" is "sincere,heartfelt prayer & seeking his direction" Anyone, and I mean ANYONE, that has had a lot of experience working with young people knows that emotions can rule their "prayers" in a way that an adult would not be led to do.

Any book on dating has to assume that the readers can be as young as 13 or 14! You are thinking like an adult and not going back to the time when you had the mind of a 13 year old. Our brains don't fully mature until at least 18. So, when we give advice about safe things to do while dating have to realize that the vast majority of those dating as very, very young and they do NOT have the same level of spiritual and emotional maturity as an older adult that might be dating. And, people are missing this critical fact COMPLETELY!

I taught EIGHTH GRADERS THAT DATED! And, I can absolutely guarantee you that they did NOT have the maturity to risk the intimacy of praying together alone.

quote:

Than prayer has nothing to do with the situation at all. The problem is they are simply two carnal people who are ruled by their physical desires and 'praying' together is simply being used as an excuse to be together. The age and maturity level were not specified in the OP.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mrsdash

one of the troubling things in this thread is the impression that many feel immune to such temptation. nobody is immune.

quote:

ORIGINAL: junerose79

If the book would have said they strongly discourage for two immature,carnal young people to be alone in an intimate setting & 'cuddling' I would have wholeheartedly agreed. But this 'not praying while dating thing' just seems pretty silly.... I apologize if my post sounded arrogant.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TMeeks

quote:

ORIGINAL: junerose79

If the book would have said they strongly discourage for two immature,carnal young people to be alone in an intimate setting & 'cuddling' I would have wholeheartedly agreed. But this 'not praying while dating thing' just seems pretty silly.... I apologize if my post sounded arrogant.

You didn't sound arrogant. I thought you were just focusing on one thing (The good that comes from prayer.) and I was focusing on something else (The environment in which the praying would be done in a dating situation.).

It's a bit like the story of the three blind men that try to describe an elepant. Our responses were different because we were focused on different aspects of the OP. There's nothing wrong with that. Our give and take provided others both aspects to consider. That's why extending discussions in a forum to fully explore positions is a good thing.

quote:

praying together is almost considered just as intimate as sex

quote:

ORIGINAL: Focusing

quote:

praying together is almost considered just as intimate as sex

Spiritual intimacy and physical intamacy are very separate things.

In no way, shape or form can praying together be compared to or likened to sex.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Focusing

quote:

praying together is almost considered just as intimate as sex

Spiritual intimacy and physical intamacy are very separate things.

In no way, shape or form can praying together be compared to or likened to sex.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mrsdash


i don't think this needs to be focused on teens. plenty of church going praying bible reading christians are falling into sinful, physical intimacy these days.