What Does This Verse Mean (Full Version)

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CherishedbyGod -> What Does This Verse Mean (3/23/2008 6:47:51 PM)

What do you think the verse I emboldened means?


Joh 20:21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
Joh 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
Joh 20:23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.



drmark -> RE: What Does This Verse Mean (3/23/2008 7:00:24 PM)

My NIV Study Bible claims this is a more literal translation: "Those whose sins you forgive have already been forgiven and those whose sins you do not forgive have not yet been forgiven". The study note suggests that those who preach the Gospel of forgiveness (the 11 disciples soon to be Apostles) are, in effect, forgiving or not forgiving sins, contingent on whether the hearers of that Gospel accept or reject Christ.



Lapidoth -> RE: What Does This Verse Mean (3/23/2008 7:56:56 PM)

Another slant, and I agree with the one given, is that if we don't
share the "Good News" with others, they continue in their sins.
If we share the "Good News" with others and the accept it, their sins are remitted.

This may be another one of those "back-burner" verses.
Many things sound right and sound good, but we're still not sure if that was the meaning.
Easy enough to tell, I looked that up in one of my commentaries and they jumped right
over verse 23. lol. Man, does not have the authority to remit or retain anothers sin, but
we do have the authority to give them God's Words of Life, which point to Jesus Christ.
Who is the One and ony WAY to the Father. No other name by which we can be saved.



CherishedbyGod -> RE: What Does This Verse Mean (3/23/2008 8:11:25 PM)

Thank you both...



drmark -> RE: What Does This Verse Mean (3/23/2008 8:31:32 PM)

quote:

Man, does not have the authority to remit or retain anothers sin,
Actually, there are some denominations which do recognize the authority of priestly absolution and probably use this verse as Scriptural support. Here is John Wesley's (thoroughly Protestant) commentary:
quote:

Whose soever sins ye remit - (According to the tenor of the Gospel, that is, supposing them to repent and believe) they are remitted, and whose soever sins ye retain (supposing them to remain impenitent) they are retained. So far is plain. But here arises a difficulty. Are not the sins of one who truly repents, and unfeignedly believes in Christ, remitted, without sacerdotal absolution? And are not the sins of one who does not repent or believe, retained even with it? What then does this commission imply? Can it imply any more than,
A power of declaring with authority the Christian terms of pardon; whose sins are remitted and whose retained? As in our daily form of absolution; and
A power of inflicting and remitting ecclesiastical censures? That is, of excluding from, and re - admitting into, a Christian congregation.



Lapidoth -> RE: What Does This Verse Mean (3/23/2008 8:44:15 PM)

I think I agree with Wesley, lol.

There are indeed many denomination views that pick and choose
one or two verses to uphold their traditional viewpoint.

But, I prefer to know that the Scripture says what it means, and
means what it says; And, I have to continue to pray and seek for
understanding.

This is one of those that we "think" we know what it means, but
know there could be more to it than our minds can comprehend.
But, will probably find out it was so simple, it was hidden from view. lol.



CherishedbyGod -> RE: What Does This Verse Mean (3/24/2008 1:25:34 PM)

Joh 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

How do you think verse 22 fits in with my title question regarding verse 23?



drmark -> RE: What Does This Verse Mean (3/24/2008 1:38:42 PM)

Well, according to verse 21, Jesus commissioned the disciples just as the Father commissioned Him. Thus, Jesus empowered them through the Agency of the Holy Spirit, as I read the passage. What puzzles me is that in John 16:7 Jesus states that the HS will not come unless He (Jesus) leaves. How should we reconcile that prediction with 20:22?



DaveW -> RE: What Does This Verse Mean (3/24/2008 3:15:44 PM)

I am going to give a whole different take on it. One I think has more historicity to it. In Matt HE says this:

Mat 16:19 "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven."

This passage is HIM giving the apostles authority to create their own practice , and ultimately to write the NT. I believe the passage in John about retaining and remitting sins is the same authority being given them. In the previous verse He had just imparted the Holy Spirit to them, the very Spirit that was to lead them into all truth and inspire the biblical texts that some of them would write in the following years.



Lapidoth -> RE: What Does This Verse Mean (3/24/2008 3:33:18 PM)

That makes sense to me.
And would let out a lot of "wanna-bes."



Bluethread -> RE: What Does This Verse Mean (3/24/2008 5:17:24 PM)

Mt 10:24 "A student is not above his teacher, nor a servant above his master."

If we accept Yeshua's(Jesus') acceptance of this rabbinic principle, then we must reject Paul's argument of salvation by grace alone, if the passage in question is saying that apistolic(rabbinic) recognition is required for salvation.

I agree with DaveW post#9, if I understand him correctly. Yeshua appears to be passing on to the apostles the ministry of clarifying what is necessary for salvation. Just as Yeshua clarified the Torah, so Peter and Paul (and you and I in turn) clarify what is necessary for salvation, as long as we do not contradict the teachings of those who came before.

quote:

CherishedbyGod:
Joh 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

How do you think verse 22 fits in with my title question regarding verse 23?


I believe Yeshua is making a play on words here. In Hebrew the word Ruach (Ghost or Spirit) can also be interpreted as breath. Therefore, this passage can be intepreted as; He breathed on them, and said unto them, receive the Holy Breath. This is not to say they did not experience power from on high, but this does seem to support the idea the He was passing the torch as it were.

quote:

drmark:
What puzzles me is that in John 16:7 Jesus states that the HS will not come unless He (Jesus) leaves. How should we reconcile that prediction with 20:22?


In context, Yeshua appears to be refering to His leaving as the Pesach(Sacrifice Lamb), not leaving all together. Thus, without the Pesach(sacrifice of The Lamb) Adonai would not and will not now or in the future abide with us. The Ruach Ha Chadosh abode with the patriarchs, by grace through faith in the imputed sacrifice of Yeshua. Now, the Ruach Ha Chedosh abides with us, by grace through faith in the realized sacrific of Yeshua. The point being, not that the Ruach Ha Chedosh did not abide with us before the sacrifice of Yeshua, but that He has abode with us throughout the ages because of sacrific of Yeshua.



CherishedbyGod -> RE: What Does This Verse Mean (3/24/2008 6:41:28 PM)

You guys lost me, especially Bluethread[:D]

Nevertheless, I love "sitting" down here in this Theo section and reading all your input and wisdom[;)]



Bluethread -> RE: What Does This Verse Mean (3/24/2008 7:13:52 PM)

CherishedbyGod:

In short, in these verses it appears Yeshua is telling the disciples (and us) that we are the gate keepers. It is our responsibility to communicate the Gospel correctly, because it is the only way into the Kingom of Adonai. He has the right to require this because he has spent the time teaching us. We owe Him. Also, even though He will not be here physically to help us, He will leave His Spirit to help us live up to this obligation.

Do you understand?



CherishedbyGod -> RE: What Does This Verse Mean (3/24/2008 9:55:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bluethread

CherishedbyGod:

In short, in these verses it appears Yeshua is telling the disciples (and us) that we are the gate keepers. It is our responsibility to communicate the Gospel correctly, because it is the only way into the Kingom of Adonai. He has the right to require this because he has spent the time teaching us. We owe Him. Also, even though He will not be here physically to help us, He will leave His Spirit to help us live up to this obligation.

Do you understand?


Ahh...Now I see what you are saying. I love what you wrote "the Kingdom of Adonai"!

Thank you!



drmark -> RE: What Does This Verse Mean (3/25/2008 9:25:12 AM)

quote:

Do you understand?
Remember, Bluethread, simple is often better. [:)]



Lapidoth -> RE: What Does This Verse Mean (3/25/2008 10:22:44 AM)

LOL.

"Less is More!"



Bluethread -> RE: What Does This Verse Mean (3/25/2008 4:17:08 PM)

I attempt to give full explanations because I don't expect people to accept what I say. as Paul expected people to check what He said with the scripture. Also, sometimes there are multiple issues at play.



doer -> RE: What Does This Verse Mean (3/26/2008 9:50:20 PM)

Joh 20:23 "If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained."

I agree with the MT 16 reference, but as I meditate on the passage I understand that Jesus told His disciple to go and preach the gospel.

without going out and preaching... "the nations" would never come to the knowledge of the gospel, and repentance/forgiveness of sins would not become available......

Rom 10:14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?
Rom 10:15 How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, "HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!"
Rom 10:16 However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?"
Rom 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.



Bluethread -> RE: What Does This Verse Mean (3/27/2008 1:37:45 PM)

Ge 49:10
"The scepter will not depart from Judah, nor the ruler's staff from between his feet, until he comes to whom it belongs and the obedience of the nations is his."

Niether the Mt 16 verse, nor the idea of John 20:21-23 refering to the passing of Yeshua's earthly ministry to His disciples, preclude preaching to the nations. In fact a common theme of the Tanach is the redemption of the nations through the preaching of Ha Torah Adonai(The Word of God).



leehedstrom -> RE: What Does This Verse Mean (3/27/2008 4:02:06 PM)

[I am responding to the question concerning why did He keep quoting the Torah when He was going to abolish it? In Matthew 5:17 Jesus said he had come not to destroy the law(Torah), but to fulfill it. The Torah is as valid today as it was in Jesus day.[8|]leehedstrom



CherishedbyGod -> RE: What Does This Verse Mean (3/27/2008 4:36:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: leehedstrom

[I am responding to the question concerning why did He keep quoting the Torah when He was going to abolish it? In Matthew 5:17 Jesus said he had come not to destroy the law(Torah), but to fulfill it. The Torah is as valid today as it was in Jesus day.[8|]leehedstrom


You will make the good Pastor's day[:D] BTW, Carl, what in the world does your new name mean[:D]



Lapidoth -> RE: What Does This Verse Mean (3/27/2008 5:59:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CherishedbyGod

quote:

ORIGINAL: leehedstrom

[I am responding to the question concerning why did He keep quoting the Torah when He was going to abolish it? In Matthew 5:17 Jesus said he had come not to destroy the law(Torah), but to fulfill it. The Torah is as valid today as it was in Jesus day.[8|]leehedstrom


You will make the good Pastor's day[:D] BTW, Carl, what in the world does your new name mean[:D]


LOL. It's shown to be obvious I can't hide. lol.

Welcome to crosswalk leehedstrom.
My signature is saying what you are saying.
But, it can seem to be the opposite.
It's a sarcasim that if Yeshua was going to abolish it,
why did He keep teaching it.

I can testify that those of us here are [I can't even describe it]
by getting back to the Torah. I've studied it all my life. More
than the NT. It kept me from just believing anything thrown out
there, although I had been swept up in many "winds of doctrine."
But, my little ship always had a great anchor in the Torah. I just
didn't know how to call it. lol.

Yeshua came to correctly interpret the Torah vs. the religious leaders.

quote:

BTW, Carl, what in the world does your new name mean


It means "Torch." As Abraham lay knocked unconscious as God was cutting
the Covenant, A smoking oven and a torch passed through the sacrifice.

And Deborah the Judge was married to Lapidoth. (Judges 4) lol.
I can't prove it, but had an inclination one day that Deborah (a female) was
married to Lapidoth (torch) might kinda sorta maybe represent the bride
married to "The" Torch. And she judges the kingdom. Kinda far-fetched,
but kinda sorta maybe it's possible. lol.



Lapidoth -> RE: What Does This Verse Mean (3/27/2008 6:03:14 PM)

quote:

The Torah is as valid today as it was in Jesus day.


The same yesterday, today, and tomorrow.
Not one yod or tittle has passed or done away with.
And if it has, I don't know what I've been walking on
all my life. lol.

Heaven and earth haven't passed away...................YET!



Lapidoth -> RE: What Does This Verse Mean (3/27/2008 6:06:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bluethread

I attempt to give full explanations because I don't expect people to accept what I say. as Paul expected people to check what He said with the scripture. Also, sometimes there are multiple issues at play.


I appreciate your full explanations.
Gives me things to look at more deeply, too.

And there are always multiple issues,
if not "agendas" at play. lol.



mariadreamer -> RE: What Does This Verse Mean (3/28/2008 3:52:47 PM)

The verse refers to the sacrament of confession and the power transmitted through the apostles to forgive sins.



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