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bassmandrex -> five fold ministry! (3/20/2008 6:47:46 PM)

Ephesians 4:8,11-12 (KJV)

8Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

Where are these people that actually fulfill this passage of scripture today?

I know that there are many pastors, teachers, evangelists, but i dont hear or know to much about apostles and prophets these days. i only know one prophet today and his name is "Mortan Bustor"
amazing how God uses him, it's literally mind blowing! Anyways!

Have we thrown some of this away? or do i not get out enough to know who these people are or where they are?



AllForIsrael -> RE: five fold ministry! (3/20/2008 7:05:34 PM)

Prophets in todays churches are just about null and void. In Biblical times they were used has G-ds commuication with humans on earth today they just come up with a bunch of prophecy that never unfolds and they get tagged a "False Prophet"



WildByNature -> RE: five fold ministry! (3/20/2008 8:25:26 PM)

The "five fold ministry" is simply a rebirth of the heretical "latter rain" movement which is considered to be one of the most dangerous false teachings in the Church today.

Read about The Faulty Foundation of the Five-Fold Ministry



FurGodWurLivin -> RE: five fold ministry! (3/20/2008 8:46:27 PM)

Uhm... except the Five Fold Ministry is named as a God thing in the Bible... as noted by the OP... So to declare it heretical is to say that Paul's letter to the Ephesians is heretical...

There are people today that I believe function as Apostles. People like Rinehart Bonke, Heidi and Roland Baker, Peter Xu Yongze, and Brother Yun, just to name five. I also believe that there are people that function as Prophets. Though I will decline to name them as it would draw the thread pretty far off-track.

Adam



earthless -> RE: five fold ministry! (3/20/2008 9:06:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
I also believe that there are people that function as Prophets. Though I will decline to name them as it would draw the thread pretty far off-track.

Adam


Adam - then name him here: http://forums.christianity.com/m_3215749/mpage_1/tm.htm

[:)]



earthless -> RE: five fold ministry! (3/20/2008 9:07:46 PM)

Is Morton Buster also a denier of the Trinity? If so, he does not pass the test of a True Prophet found in Scripture.



bassmandrex -> RE: five fold ministry! (3/20/2008 9:12:14 PM)

I have experienced and know this prophet that came to a church and he was able to call out any sickness, pain, mental problems, spiritual stuff going on with a person and did a church prophesy and when he said these things they began to happen and faster then a blink of an eye these people were healed of their problems and anywhere that God directed him he called it out and the miracle was done. so don't say that all prophets are false but you as a person will be able to tell if you have a faithful walk with the Lord. [sm=hammerhead.gif]

you can read your books and what they say but i actually see the source and experience it for myself and know, instead of someone else telling me. i believe that there is a five fold ministry but it is hardly fulfilled because there are barely any true prophets living today.

God Bless!!![sm=cool.gif]



earthless -> RE: five fold ministry! (3/20/2008 9:15:20 PM)

Um, last I checked we're all Christians that are active in church, some of us are pastors, authors, speakers, etc.. to say we all just read books about the stuff is a bit off.



bassmandrex -> RE: five fold ministry! (3/20/2008 9:25:28 PM)

quote:

Is Morton Buster also a denier of the Trinity? If so, he does not pass the test of a True Prophet found in Scripture.


well than why would God use him in such a way to call a specific person out of the crowd not knowing who they are and tell them what pain they have or problems they are going through etc. and say "you are healed or it is taken care of" and when he says it they are instantaneously healed or their problem is taken care of. and he has never been wrong before because he allows God to speak through him and he is sensitive to what God wants done right there and then.

I don't think you have ever experienced this, otherwise you wouldn't have said that. i would like to hear someone that does believe in the Trinity do this because i have never heard or ever known of one.
plus i have received prophesy myself from people that aren't prophets and it came to pass or is still in the making! All from "Oneness believers" never have i heard this from someone who believed/s in a Triune God.
If there is one that is a believer of the Trinity i would like to know!

Thank you and God Bless![:)]



bassmandrex -> RE: five fold ministry! (3/20/2008 9:27:01 PM)

quote:

Um, last I checked we're all Christians that are active in church, some of us are pastors, authors, speakers, etc.. to say we all just read books about the stuff is a bit off.


Sorry, i didn't mean about pastors, teachers, etc. just prophets. I should have been a little more clear my bad!



WildByNature -> RE: five fold ministry! (3/21/2008 12:11:04 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
Uhm... except the Five Fold Ministry is named as a God thing in the Bible... as noted by the OP...

Uhm ... except the "Five-Fold Ministry" is not named in the Bible at all -- its only noted by the OP. And, the only proof-text ever used to support this concept is the one given (Eph 4:11-13).

quote:

So to declare it heretical is to say that Paul's letter to the Ephesians is heretical...

Not at all. Taking a small passage out of context to declare such a concept is how heresy is born. That does NOT mean Paul's letter to the Ephesians is heretical -- only that such an out of context interpretation that ignores sound doctrine is heresy.

quote:

There are people today that I believe function as Apostles.

An Apostle, as defined in scripture, can NOT exist today -- its an impossibility. Many may call themselves Apostles, but they are not -- just as many may call themselves Christians and are not.

In addition, as to the "function" of an Apostle, in the very same epistle (Eph 2:20), Paul states that the church has "been built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets" -- so unless you are willing to contradict scripture by saying that the foundation of the Church is not complete; that we have been building the body of Christ upon a faulty, incomplete foundation all these years; and, that the foundation will never be complete because we will always have "apostles" -- then there are no people functioning as "apostles" today.

quote:

People like Rinehart Bonke, Heidi and Roland Baker, Peter Xu Yongze, and Brother Yun, just to name five.


Let's see ...
... Bonke travels with Benny Hinn -- 'nuff said;
... the Bakers preach and follow the teachings of William Branham who helped to popularize the heretical Latter Rain movement after World War II (which, as I've previously pointed out, this "Five-Fold Ministry" concept is simply a rebirth of);
... and, Peter Xu and Brother Yun who are credited with starting the Unity Movement in China and believe they are called to hasten Christ's coming by uniting the doctrinal beliefs of Chinese Christians in order to bring the Gospel to Jerusalem -- no wonder they keep ending up in jail.

Hmmm, if these are the "apostles" you want to believe in, you can have them. I wouldn't want to build upon anything that they've laid.



bassmandrex -> RE: five fold ministry! (3/21/2008 2:05:59 AM)

quote:

An Apostle, as defined in scripture, can NOT exist today


Could you please give the scriptual reference to that.

What about Paul he ended up in prison but he still was an apostle?

There are many foundations to a lot of things, take fore instance and small business. it starts out small of course, but as time goes on it can begin to expand if allowed and become huge like Microsoft, and who ever started it needs to pass on the keys to who is next in line to continue growth and this just continually goes on and on. just like with, i will use what you have, prophets and apostles they were the foundation but they had to of passed the mantle to someone else to continue spreading the Word of God. so There had to be another apostle or prophet to step in because the other was soon going to pass on. that brings us to today There would have to be apostles and prophets otherwise, in Eph 4, wouldn't be fulfilled and then there would be a flaw in the Bible!



earthless -> RE: five fold ministry! (3/21/2008 8:17:58 AM)

Scripture clearing forewarns us that Satan and the demonic realm can and will and do mask themselves as beings of light, with signs and wonders that will fool even the elect.



AllForIsrael -> RE: five fold ministry! (3/21/2008 8:50:54 AM)

The original posts failed to identify the five fold offices

Apostles
Prophets
Evangelists
Pastor
Teacher

Also important to note that no true word spoken by a present day prophet will be in conflict with the spirit or context of the scriptures. The Holy Spirits gift of prophecy through saints is to bring edification, exhortation and comfort to the Church 1 Cor 14:3 Paul emphasized that truth when he told the Church at Corinth to covet prophecy 1 Cor 14:39 and Eph 4:11

During Jesus time he personally got involved in the restoration of the prophet I Sam 8:7 De 18:15 and Gen 20:7 Apostles and prophets were found at the fall of Babylon Eph 4:11-13 Rev 10:7 11;10 18:20

It also says that believe in his prophets and you shall prosper
Ps 105:15 MT 10:41 1 Cor 12:28 II Chr 20:20

Based on this I do not think anyone today would qualify as a true prophet though many claim to be. It is G-ds counsel that every word needs to be witnessed and confirmed in the mouth of two or three witnesses 2 Cor 13:1


quote:

An Apostle, as defined in scripture, can NOT exist today

This I agree with.......



rlj -> RE: five fold ministry! (3/21/2008 9:02:28 AM)

If your definition of Apostle is the one mentioned in Acts 1:20-22 then Paul is erroneously called an apostle.



earthless -> RE: five fold ministry! (3/21/2008 9:12:55 AM)

Ephesians 4:12-13 tells us that the purpose of the five-fold ministry is, "to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ."

So, since the body of Christ definitely is not built up to unity in the faith and has not attained to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ, the thinking goes, the offices of apostle and prophet must still be in effect.

However, Ephesians 2:20 informs us that the church is "built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus Himself as the chief cornerstone."

If the apostles and prophets were the foundation of the church, are we still building the foundation?

Hebrews 6:1-3 encourages us to move on from the foundation. Although Jesus Christ is most definitely active in the church today, His role as the cornerstone of the church was completed with His death, burial, resurrection, and ascension.

If the work of the cornerstone is, in that sense, complete, so must the work of the apostles and prophets, who were the foundation, be complete.

What was the role of the apostles and prophets? It was to proclaim God's revelation, to teach the new truth the church would need to grow and thrive.

The apostles and prophets completed this mission. How? By giving us the Word of God.

The Word of God is the completed revelation of God. The Bible contains everything the church needs to know to grow, thrive, and fulfill God's mission (2 Timothy 3:15-16).

The cornerstone work of the apostles and prophets is complete - the ongoing work of the apostles and prophets is manifested in the Holy Spirit speaking through and teaching us God's Word. In that sense, the five-fold ministry is still active.



rlj -> RE: five fold ministry! (3/21/2008 9:26:22 AM)

quote:

The cornerstone work of the apostles and prophets is complete - the ongoing work of the apostles and prophets is manifested in the Holy Spirit speaking through and teaching us God's Word. In that sense, the five-fold ministry is still active.


Actually I don't disagree with that. I believe though that God often through the Spirit uses men.



AllForIsrael -> RE: five fold ministry! (3/21/2008 9:27:32 AM)

No matter what fancy way you break it down there are no true ones today.....all the fancy analyzing won't change a thing.



earthless -> RE: five fold ministry! (3/21/2008 10:20:47 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rlj

quote:

The cornerstone work of the apostles and prophets is complete - the ongoing work of the apostles and prophets is manifested in the Holy Spirit speaking through and teaching us God's Word. In that sense, the five-fold ministry is still active.


Actually I don't disagree with that. I believe though that God often through the Spirit uses men.


Of course God uses people today to preach His Word to do His work. But that does not mean we are still building the foundation. That does not mean we are still in need of the OFFICE of Prophet and Apostle today because of some lack of the foundation or of the Word.

Praise God He has fully provided both for all mankind.



wintery -> RE: five fold ministry! (3/21/2008 11:34:51 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: earthless
Of course God uses people today to preach His Word to do His work. But that does not mean we are still building the foundation. That does not mean we are still in need of the OFFICE of Prophet and Apostle today because of some lack of the foundation or of the Word.

Praise God He has fully provided both for all mankind.


As I keep seeing these references to building another foundation on the foundation already built, I can imagine a huge building with some walls up and construction going on, and in a corner a small group toils to make a secondary foundation, and yet others attempt to build their walls on this foundation. They would end up with a ...freaky-looking mess!



AllForIsrael -> RE: five fold ministry! (3/21/2008 12:09:27 PM)

quote:

That does not mean we are still in need of the OFFICE of Prophet and Apostle today because of some lack of the foundation or of the Word.


The 1980s were the decade of the prophet and its restoration. Now supposedly prophets prepare the way for Christ Second coming but with what we have out there today I would not want to be on the same elevator with these folks. The prophetic ministry still exist only in a more glorified form that is mean't more for hauling in cash and wealth than witnessing G-ds word.



bassmandrex -> RE: five fold ministry! (3/21/2008 1:26:27 PM)

i believe that it is still active today because there are few that are prophets, from what i know, and apostles, as for the pastors teachers and evangelists, there are many of those!

quote:

No matter what fancy way you break it down there are no true ones today.....all the fancy analyzing won't change a thing.


i take it that you have never encountered one or the other? there is know way you can not have them. like i stated before in my analogy, when a pastors time is up he passes his mantle to someone else that is in position to do it. and they are now pastor. obviously you don't have to have that passing of the mantle to become one. and th same goes with teachers, evangelists, apostles, and prophets. They still do exist today. And yes there are flasr prophets and witnessess and so on but you will be able to tell if you have a prayer life and walk with the Lord!

quote:

Scripture clearing forewarns us that Satan and the demonic realm can and will and do mask themselves as beings of light, with signs and wonders that will fool even the elect.
this is found in Matthew

Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

I read this chapter and was praying as well when i read and the Lord revealed something to me. It is not just a single persons it is talking about but the things this world offers, like Hollywood and their false thinking, but look at who it effects, look at how accepting this country and world is accepting to think its ok to be homosexual, to smoke, drink, the list goes on. pretty much everything the bible says not to do is what is going on now and even the elect fall into this because we, i am included in this, are all sinners, but strong walk with God everyday helps prevent this to not be blinded by the sins of this world.

Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
Gal 5:26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.



AllForIsrael -> RE: five fold ministry! (3/21/2008 1:28:39 PM)

quote:

i take it that you have never encountered one or the other?


If you do encounter one it will be in a Rolls Royce surrounded by all types of expensive toys. They profit off of G-ds word and sad to say people listen to the stuff.



Bluethread -> RE: five fold ministry! (3/21/2008 2:24:42 PM)

Eph 4:2-3 "Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace."

I don't think I have seen this much misuse of Scripture in some time, on both sides. This "five-fold minisrty" thing sounds to me like an attempt to set up an authoritarian structure. The other side sounds like a reactionary attempt to limit the work of Ruach Ha Chadosh(The Holy Spirit). First of all, how do we know this is an exhaustive list and why does it have to be seen as an hierarchy. Paul's point, as stated at the beginning of the chapter, is that we need to stop bickering regarding "the gifts". The point of the gifts is to help the community more healthy not to determine who is in charge. Adonai is to be in charge.

Could it be that "the foundation" Paul is talking about is the foundation of the apostles and prophets who have gone before, and the work of any apostles and prophets, as well as all other gifted persons, is to build on that foundation.

If you read to first five chapters of Hebrews, it seem apparent that in Heb 6:1-3 Paul is saying that we need to move on from the founding doctrine of salvation by grace and begin talking about how we should be living. Let's not get hung up on extending the analogy. No analogy is perfect. In context Yeshua(Jesus) is the cornerstone. The cornerstone is not a role He played, but a facet of His nature. In the analogy, He is still there. We is Cohn Ha Gadol(High Priest) making intercession with Adonai not just on the salvation issue, but in all areas of our lives.

The canon of Scripture is not necessarily closed, If someone comes up with something that does not violate prior Scriptue and meets the Scriptural standards for revelation, it could very well be Scripture.



earthless -> RE: five fold ministry! (3/21/2008 2:27:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bluethread

The canon of Scripture is not necessarily closed, If someone comes up with something that does not violate prior Scriptue and meets the Scriptural standards for revelation, it could very well be Scripture.


WHAT?!

Where do you even derive this from? Wow.



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