|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
RE: five fold ministry! - 4/14/2008 1:31:03 PM
|
|
|
Soxfan
Posts: 1475
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Connecticut
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: SD456
I agree. There is no scriptural reference to those things ending.
Plenty has been provided
quote:
Heidi Baker has seen Jesus and He himself commissioned her,
So let me get this straight, this "Apostle" has seen the resurrected Jesus PHYSICALLY? And this PHYSICALLY resurrected Jesus personally commissioned her?
quote:
Heidi Baker has raised the dead, healed the blind,
Gee, and to think, I was always under the impression that JESUS was the only one that could do those things.
_____________________________
"This would be the first step in apostasy; men first forget the true, and then adore the false.".......C.H. Spurgeon
|
|
|
|
|
RE: five fold ministry! - 4/14/2008 2:46:12 PM
|
|
|
earthless
Posts: 5028
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where bbq pigeons roast....
Status: online
|
The Baker's adhere to some REALLY abhorrent teachings and associations. Troublesome for people who claim sola Scriptura and sound biblical doctrine.
Rolland Baker counts William Branham as the most anointed man since Christ. How “anointed” is Branham? Let’s see with statements out of his own mouth:
quote:
“Now my precious brothers - I know this is a tape also. Now don’t get excited. Let me say this with Godly love. The hours approached where I can’t hold still on these things no more… Trinitarianism is of the devil. I tell you that - Thus saith the Lord.” (William Branham, Footprints on the Sands of Time: The autobiography of William Marrion Branham, Part Two (Jeffersonville, IN: Spoken Word Publications, 1975), 606-7.)
Here we go again with the “Thus saith the Lord” bunch. “YOU SAY, THE LORD SAYS, BUT I HAVE NOT SPOKEN. BEHOLD, YOU HAVE SPOKEN NONSENSE AND ENVISIONED LIES, THEREFORE I AM INDEED AGAINST YOU, SAYS THE LORD GOD” Ezekiel 13:7-8.
Branham most definitely speaks nonsense here, he is preaching Oneness and anti-Trinity statements which are contrary to Scripture. It denies who God is, who Jesus is, who the Holy Spirit is.
quote:
“Why don’t you examine your baptism of Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, and that false ‘trinity’ it’s so-called…” (William Braham, “Revelation Chapter Four #3 (Throne of Mercy and Judgment)” (Voice of God Recordings, Inc., 1961, audio tape #61-0108, side 2).
Oh really?! Scripture says otherwise: “There are three that bear witness in heaven; The Father, the Word (John 1:1,14) and the Holy Spirit and these three are one” 1 John 5:7.
quote:
William Branham insisted that “believers baptized by a Trinitarian formula must be rebaptized in the name of Jesus only.” (Burgess and McGee, Pentecostal and Charismatic Movements, 95-96)
Regarding original sin Branham wrongly and publicly stated…
quote:
“Here is what actually happened in the Garden of Eden. The Word says that Eve was beguiled by the serpent. She was actually seduced by the serpent. He was as close to being a human that his seed could, and did mingle with that of the woman and cause her to conceive” (William Branham, The Original Sin, pp. 2, 3)
This is what Rolland Baker calls highly anointed? Lack of discernment and plain Bible sense 'R Us'. Heidi herself was led to the Lord long ago by a Navajo preacher and was soon thereafter taken up in a vision where she was told by God to be a missionary and a preacher to Africa, Asia, and England. This “taken up” concept is not new. It is found throughout Ezekiel: “The Spirit entered me, when He spoke to me, and set me on my feet” Ezekiel 2:1. “So the Spirit lifted me up and took me away” Ezekiel 3:14. “Then the Spirit took me up and brought me in a vision by the Spirit of God into Chaldea” Ezekiel 11:24.
There are many more such occurrences in the Book of Ezekiel and this is what Heidi Baker says also happened to her.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
|
|
|
|
|
RE: five fold ministry! - 4/14/2008 2:57:31 PM
|
|
|
earthless
Posts: 5028
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where bbq pigeons roast....
Status: online
|
One very simple question...
Many self-professed Christians claim to have discernment from the Holy Spirit, etc...
HOW IN THE WORLD do they lack the basic discernment to know when an individual (like William Branham) teaches Oneness theology, serpent-seed theology, word of faith theology, etc... etc...
I simply do not understand the gaping hole there with people who claim such "anointings", and "personal revelations RHEMA"... to not see such basic, yet serious, problems.
Anyone able to answer this question?
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
|
|
|
|
|
RE: five fold ministry! - 4/14/2008 5:20:26 PM
|
|
|
FurGodWurLivin
Posts: 1087
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline
|
Easily. The gifts of the Spirit are not necessarily the stamp of God's approval on that person's life or doctrine. Evidenced by the prophesying of King Saul, a person can be off in more than one area and still have a dynamic ministry through Anointing of the Spirit. Were you to ask Roland Baker, I can guarantee you that he would disagree with Branham's doctrine... yet he still makes the claim that Branham is one of the most anointed men in church history.
Once again, you have gone from arguing the point, to arguing people. That is a forfeiture of the point.
Adam
_____________________________
I am hyena, Jesus is my Mufasa...
|
|
|
|
|
RE: five fold ministry! - 4/14/2008 5:23:24 PM
|
|
|
earthless
Posts: 5028
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where bbq pigeons roast....
Status: online
|
Adam,
I hear what you're saying - but here we have a man that someone is claiming is the most anointed man in history that:
a) believes in a god that does not exist (the Oneness one)
&
b) that anyone baptized by the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit are hell bound/not saved.
Do you, personally, believe a person that adheres to a false god and a false view of salvation can be the most anointed Christian man ever?
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
|
|
|
|
|
RE: five fold ministry! - 4/14/2008 7:09:58 PM
|
|
|
Soxfan
Posts: 1475
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Connecticut
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
The Baker's adhere to some REALLY abhorrent teachings and associations. Troublesome for people who claim sola Scriptura and sound biblical doctrine.
Rolland Baker counts William Branham as the most anointed man since Christ. How “anointed” is Branham? Let’s see with statements out of his own mouth:
quote:
“Now my precious brothers - I know this is a tape also. Now don’t get excited. Let me say this with Godly love. The hours approached where I can’t hold still on these things no more… Trinitarianism is of the devil. I tell you that - Thus saith the Lord.” (William Branham, Footprints on the Sands of Time: The autobiography of William Marrion Branham, Part Two (Jeffersonville, IN: Spoken Word Publications, 1975), 606-7.)
Here we go again with the “Thus saith the Lord” bunch. “YOU SAY, THE LORD SAYS, BUT I HAVE NOT SPOKEN. BEHOLD, YOU HAVE SPOKEN NONSENSE AND ENVISIONED LIES, THEREFORE I AM INDEED AGAINST YOU, SAYS THE LORD GOD” Ezekiel 13:7-8.
Branham most definitely speaks nonsense here, he is preaching Oneness and anti-Trinity statements which are contrary to Scripture. It denies who God is, who Jesus is, who the Holy Spirit is.
quote:
“Why don’t you examine your baptism of Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, and that false ‘trinity’ it’s so-called…” (William Braham, “Revelation Chapter Four #3 (Throne of Mercy and Judgment)” (Voice of God Recordings, Inc., 1961, audio tape #61-0108, side 2).
Oh really?! Scripture says otherwise: “There are three that bear witness in heaven; The Father, the Word (John 1:1,14) and the Holy Spirit and these three are one” 1 John 5:7.
quote:
William Branham insisted that “believers baptized by a Trinitarian formula must be rebaptized in the name of Jesus only.” (Burgess and McGee, Pentecostal and Charismatic Movements, 95-96)
Regarding original sin Branham wrongly and publicly stated…
quote:
“Here is what actually happened in the Garden of Eden. The Word says that Eve was beguiled by the serpent. She was actually seduced by the serpent. He was as close to being a human that his seed could, and did mingle with that of the woman and cause her to conceive” (William Branham, The Original Sin, pp. 2, 3)
This is what Rolland Baker calls highly anointed? Lack of discernment and plain Bible sense 'R Us'. Heidi herself was led to the Lord long ago by a Navajo preacher and was soon thereafter taken up in a vision where she was told by God to be a missionary and a preacher to Africa, Asia, and England. This “taken up” concept is not new. It is found throughout Ezekiel: “The Spirit entered me, when He spoke to me, and set me on my feet” Ezekiel 2:1. “So the Spirit lifted me up and took me away” Ezekiel 3:14. “Then the Spirit took me up and brought me in a vision by the Spirit of God into Chaldea” Ezekiel 11:24.
There are many more such occurrences in the Book of Ezekiel and this is what Heidi Baker says also happened to her.
Why am I not surprised. Every time someone comes up with a so-called Apostle or Prophet, it always leads to associations with false teachers and confirmed heretics!
Funny how the same usual suspects (associations) come up (Branham, Joyner, Wagner, Cain, etc)
_____________________________
"This would be the first step in apostasy; men first forget the true, and then adore the false.".......C.H. Spurgeon
|
|
|
|
|
RE: five fold ministry! - 4/15/2008 6:12:05 AM
|
|
|
FurGodWurLivin
Posts: 1087
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline
|
quote:
Do you, personally, believe a person that adheres to a false god and a false view of salvation can be the most anointed Christian man ever? My personal opinion about Branham... as irrelevant as it is... is that William Branham was severely jacked up. I also know that he moved in powerful gifts of healing. So, should you desire to start a conversation about who is Christian and who is not, I will simply tell you that we will be surprised at who is in Heaven when we get there as much as we will be surprised at who is not there. As I have said, the gifts of the Spirit are a gift to the body and not necessarily God's stamp of approval on someone's doctrine or lifestyle.
quote:
Why am I not surprised. Every time someone comes up with a so-called Apostle or Prophet, it always leads to associations with false teachers and confirmed heretics!
Funny how the same usual suspects (associations) come up (Branham, Joyner, Wagner, Cain, etc) Confirmed heretics... IE, anyone in the Charismatic movement? Of the list you just gave, the only one that I would consider as dancing the line between error and heresy is Branham himself. As far as your feigned surprise, it is because that these people were inspirations to people within the Charismatic movement. I know that Peter Wagner, Paul Cain, and Rick Joyner all have errors in their doctrines in which they will say "oops" when they get to heaven... heretics? Far from it.
Adam
_____________________________
I am hyena, Jesus is my Mufasa...
|
|
|
|
|
RE: five fold ministry! - 4/15/2008 6:45:01 PM
|
|
|
themoodyexperience
Posts: 131
Joined: 3/19/2008
From: Tuscumbia, Alabama
Status: offline
|
Sounds a little too Joseph Smith for my taste.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Soxfan
quote:
ORIGINAL: SD456
quote:
Heidi Baker has seen Jesus and He himself commissioned her,
So let me get this straight, this "Apostle" has seen the resurrected Jesus PHYSICALLY? And this PHYSICALLY resurrected Jesus personally commissioned her?
_____________________________
If you question what I'm teaching you
You rebel against the Father too.
- Steve Taylor from "I Manipulate"
|
|
|
|
|
RE: five fold ministry! - 4/15/2008 7:03:06 PM
|
|
|
earthless
Posts: 5028
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where bbq pigeons roast....
Status: online
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
quote:
Do you, personally, believe a person that adheres to a false god and a false view of salvation can be the most anointed Christian man ever? My personal opinion about Branham... as irrelevant as it is... is that William Branham was severely jacked up. I also know that he moved in powerful gifts of healing. So, should you desire to start a conversation about who is Christian and who is not, I will simply tell you that we will be surprised at who is in Heaven when we get there as much as we will be surprised at who is not there. As I have said, the gifts of the Spirit are a gift to the body and not necessarily God's stamp of approval on someone's doctrine or lifestyle.
I appreciate your response, but that was not really an answer to my question. I agree with you that we will be surprised to see who is in Heaven, no doubt.
But my question is a sincere and important one - how can a person be saved if they do not know the God of Scripture. Not saying Branham is not saved, but the question makes me think.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
|
|
|
|
|
RE: five fold ministry! - 4/16/2008 3:02:25 AM
|
|
|
FurGodWurLivin
Posts: 1087
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline
|
quote:
but that was not really an answer to my question. Actually it was. I answered the question as it was relevent to the topic at hand, rather than straying into the purely philosophical.quote:
But my question is a sincere and important one - how can a person be saved if they do not know the God of Scripture Considering how many Unitarians there are in Christianity today (especially in America), and how defensible the position is (even though I disagree with it), I would be remiss to make the statement you just did. I disagree with that position, and vehemently so, but I do not think that it puts one in danger of eternal damnation.
Now to wheel this back around to the actual topic of discussion. Of the thirteen Apostles that we would all agree on as Apostles, fewer than half of them (5 of 13... John, Paul, Matthew, Peter, James) had their detailed writings and sermons placed into the canon of Scripture. So how do we then make the claim that if anyone is an Apostle their words have to be of equal importance and infallibility as the canon of Scripture?
Adam
_____________________________
I am hyena, Jesus is my Mufasa...
|
|
|
|
|
RE: five fold ministry! - 4/16/2008 5:57:08 AM
|
|
|
rlj
Posts: 1737
Joined: 4/14/2005
Status: online
|
quote:
Now to wheel this back around to the actual topic of discussion. Of the thirteen Apostles that we would all agree on as Apostles, fewer than half of them (5 of 13... John, Paul, Matthew, Peter, James) had their detailed writings and sermons placed into the canon of Scripture. So how do we then make the claim that if anyone is an Apostle their words have to be of equal importance and infallibility as the canon of Scripture?
Those who had their writings become part of scripture also had writings that were not. In Colossians 4:16 Paul tells the believers in Colosse to read the epistle to the Laodiceans. The epistle to the laodiceans isn't part of the canon of scripture.
_____________________________
-Roger
1 Thess 5:20 do not treat prophecies with contempt. 21 Test everything. Hold on to the good. (NIV)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: five fold ministry! - 4/16/2008 6:58:43 PM
|
|
|
SD456
Posts: 1505
Joined: 8/6/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: sue244
Jesus was seen of ALL the apostles, and this is in the past tense which means ALL ths apostles had already seen Him.
Just another proof that apostles were for the 1 century to build the foundation and we are now building on what they laid, we are not still building a foundation.
That means ALL the apostles at the time of Jesus' resurrection. It's referring to an event in the past, so it's past tense. It does not mean that there are no more apostles. At that time there were only 11. Then Matthias was added, then Paul, then Barnabus, there is also Andronicus and Junias.
Ac 1:26
And they drew lots for them, and the lot fell to Matthias; and he was added to the eleven apostles
Ac 14:14
But when the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard of it
Ro 16:7
Greet Andronicus and Junias, my kinsmen and my fellow prisoners, who are outstanding among the apostles
_____________________________
MY BLOG
http://reflectionsdeep.blogspot.com
|
|
|
|
|
RE: five fold ministry! - 4/16/2008 10:54:40 PM
|
|
|
sue244
Posts: 333
Joined: 6/7/2006
From: Colorado
Status: online
|
So all doesn't mean all, Thats sounds like an argument for the Calvinest, Arminiest topic.
Fancy twisting with the word ALL doesn't prove your point.
< Message edited by sue244 -- 4/16/2008 11:02:26 PM >
_____________________________
"It is a remarkable fact that all the heresies which have arisen in the Christian Church have had a decided tendency to 'dishonor God and to flatter man.'"
Spurgen
|
|
|
|
|
RE: five fold ministry! - 4/17/2008 2:00:40 AM
|
|
|
SD456
Posts: 1505
Joined: 8/6/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: sue244
So all doesn't mean all, Thats sounds like an argument for the Calvinest, Arminiest topic.
Fancy twisting with the word ALL doesn't prove your point.
Not twisting, just reading scripture correctly. As you said earlier, they were speaking in the past tense. Well, of course they were. They were speaking about the resurrection and whom Jesus appeared to at the time of the resurrection. There were only 11 apostles at that time and Paul was not one of them.
If you wish to somehow infer that speaking about a specific past event somehow encompasses all of church history - when Paul, a known apostle, was not present at that event - then that is stretching scripture to mean something it doesn't, but it WOULD fit your conclusion better.
_____________________________
MY BLOG
http://reflectionsdeep.blogspot.com
|
|
|
|
|
RE: five fold ministry! - 4/17/2008 2:12:49 AM
|
|
|
SD456
Posts: 1505
Joined: 8/6/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Soxfan
quote:
ORIGINAL: SD456
I agree. There is no scriptural reference to those things ending.
Plenty has been provided
quote:
Heidi Baker has seen Jesus and He himself commissioned her,
So let me get this straight, this "Apostle" has seen the resurrected Jesus PHYSICALLY? And this PHYSICALLY resurrected Jesus personally commissioned her?
quote:
Heidi Baker has raised the dead, healed the blind,
Gee, and to think, I was always under the impression that JESUS was the only one that could do those things.
Plenty of scripture has been provided? I've seen only one verse that you guys stand on - "the foundation of the church was built upon the prophets and apostles." I wouldn't consider that plenty, not to mention you are reading far more into that verse than is there.
Scripture clearly states that God gave the 5 fold ministry to the church. period. He didn't say He gave 2 of them temporarily to the church and the other 3 will be permanent. They are all permanently given to the church.
So I respectfully disagree. But that's ok, because our salvation isn't dependent on any of these secondary issues.
_____________________________
MY BLOG
http://reflectionsdeep.blogspot.com
|
|
|
|
|
RE: five fold ministry! - 4/17/2008 3:28:00 AM
|
|
|
BibleL7
Posts: 449
Joined: 2/1/2008
Status: offline
|
Perhaps someone might consider that in this so-called five fold ministry that the word apostle is not the same office as the 12. It does appear that others were called or considered apostles besides the twelve and not all are clearly pointed out as having seen Jesus. Yes for the one chosen to take Judas Iscariot's place it was necessary for that one to have been with Jesus and a witness of the resurrection. As for the all the apostles seeing Jesus in Paul's epistle, He was seen by all that were apostles at that time even Paul counts himself as one born out of season and after the all mentioned.
Did all apostles write Scripture? NO
Did any apostle contradict Scripture of the time? NO
Is the canon of Scripture complete? YES
Did the wonders and signs cease after the Canon of Scripture was complete? NO
Does the Lord still speak to His church through prophets after the Resurrection? YES
Were apostles and prophets the only ones who wrote Scripture? NO
Were any books of Scripture written after the apostolic age? NO
Just a few things to consider in your debating. I can not say as to any of those named being prophets or apostles as I do not know them. I would also say that the foundation is built and is complete and we are only building on the foundation. Perhaps the office of apostle now a days is more of those who plant churches such as missionaries the word apostle is also translated emissary certainly many that are sent out by the Holy Spirit and teach unreached have shown signs and wonders. Are any the same as the 12 NOPE.
As for prophets in the church why not? Are we not to test the prophets to see if they are true? Why would we be commanded to test them if they were no longer given? Are there many false prophets today? Absolutely. We are told there would be many false prophets, many false apostles and even many false Christs. Were all the apostles mentioned in Scriptures mentioned after the early part of the book of Acts? No, many were not included in Epistles and many went about growing the Kingdom without much mention. Must prophecy be new scripture or of authority of scripture? NO there were many prophets that did not write Scripture in both OT and NT. They did however speak forth the Word of God and any predictions they made came to pass.
Some corrections in previous posts:
There appears to have been two or more witnesses to the woman caught in adultery as the said 'we caught her in the very act' yet you did not mention it being against the law for the matter that both the man and woman were to be stoned.
Baptist churches do not believe that baptism is required for salvation they do believe that Baptism is a sacrament as is Communion. The do believe that Baptism means full immersion and that it is an act after making a profession of Christ. Though they are mostly independent and some may teach it wrong it is not accepted as Baptist Doctrine. Sorry if you all think this should not be said yet as a member of a Baptist Church I felt the truth should be stated so others would not believe incorrectly.
Just the opinion of a small town preacher
|
|
|
|
|
RE: five fold ministry! - 4/17/2008 9:43:46 AM
|
|
|
wintery
Posts: 1125
Joined: 2/1/2007
From: nw alabama
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: BibleL7
Perhaps the office of apostle now a days is more of those who plant churches such as missionaries the word apostle is also translated emissary certainly many that are sent out by the Holy Spirit and teach unreached have shown signs and wonders. Are any the same as the 12 NOPE.
As for prophets in the church why not? Are we not to test the prophets to see if they are true? Why would we be commanded to test them if they were no longer given? Are there many false prophets today? Absolutely.
There are those who tend to throw the terms "apostle" and "prophet" around without any qualifications or at least using malleable definitions. Certainly there are those putting forth the idea that current "apostles" have the same kind of authority as the twelve and Paul. And prophets...seem to have a get-out-of-scrutiny card while wanting the importance of an OT prophet in the minds of their hearers. The "smarter" ones have moved away from event-prophesying such as speaking earthquakes etc and now pronounce flowery "moves" and "seasons" which never have to "come to pass" and can mean anything they want.
While this is not an argument against your view on whether apostolic and prophetic roles may continue of a sort, the groups that are five-fold promoters continue to be attracted to the higher-profile new-revelation-from-God "ministers" who call themselves apostles and prophets, or who imply that they are on that level.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: five fold ministry! - 4/17/2008 12:00:19 PM
|
|
|
sue244
Posts: 333
Joined: 6/7/2006
From: Colorado
Status: online
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: SD456
quote:
ORIGINAL: sue244
So all doesn't mean all, Thats sounds like an argument for the Calvinest, Arminiest topic.
Fancy twisting with the word ALL doesn't prove your point.
Not twisting, just reading scripture correctly. As you said earlier, they were speaking in the past tense. Well, of course they were. They were speaking about the resurrection and whom Jesus appeared to at the time of the resurrection. There were only 11 apostles at that time and Paul was not one of them.
If you wish to somehow infer that speaking about a specific past event somehow encompasses all of church history - when Paul, a known apostle, was not present at that event - then that is stretching scripture to mean something it doesn't, but it WOULD fit your conclusion better.
Um Paul Did see the resurected Jesus Christ so your argument doesn't hold. He is part of ALL the apostles that saw the Resurected Christ
1 Cor 15:5-9
5And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
6After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
7After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
8And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.
9For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
Look at this passage, First he was seen by Peter and the 12, then by 500, then James, then all of the apostles, including Paul. All of those people that you mentioned in Acts that quoted saw the Resurected Jesus.
You can not get around the fact that an Apostle has to see the risen savior, and that the Bible uses the past tense when saying ALL of the apostles saw Him.
_____________________________
"It is a remarkable fact that all the heresies which have arisen in the Christian Church have had a decided tendency to 'dishonor God and to flatter man.'"
Spurgen
|
|
|
|
|
RE: five fold ministry! - 4/17/2008 12:54:54 PM
|
|
|
Soxfan
Posts: 1475
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Connecticut
Status: offline
|
The whole thought around "restoring" (Five-Fold Ministry) the offices of Apostle and Prophets to the church comes from a deeply heretical and dangerous movement.
That alone should prove that it is a false assumption.
_____________________________
"This would be the first step in apostasy; men first forget the true, and then adore the false.".......C.H. Spurgeon
|
|
|
|
|
RE: five fold ministry! - 4/17/2008 8:24:22 PM
|
|
|
SD456
Posts: 1505
Joined: 8/6/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: sue244
quote:
ORIGINAL: SD456
quote:
ORIGINAL: sue244
So all doesn't mean all, Thats sounds like an argument for the Calvinest, Arminiest topic.
Fancy twisting with the word ALL doesn't prove your point.
Not twisting, just reading scripture correctly. As you said earlier, they were speaking in the past tense. Well, of course they were. They were speaking about the resurrection and whom Jesus appeared to at the time of the resurrection. There were only 11 apostles at that time and Paul was not one of them.
If you wish to somehow infer that speaking about a specific past event somehow encompasses all of church history - when Paul, a known apostle, was not present at that event - then that is stretching scripture to mean something it doesn't, but it WOULD fit your conclusion better.
Um Paul Did see the resurected Jesus Christ so your argument doesn't hold. He is part of ALL the apostles that saw the Resurected Christ
1 Cor 15:5-9
5And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
6After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
7After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
8And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.
9For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
Look at this passage, First he was seen by Peter and the 12, then by 500, then James, then all of the apostles, including Paul. All of those people that you mentioned in Acts that quoted saw the Resurected Jesus.
You can not get around the fact that an Apostle has to see the risen savior, and that the Bible uses the past tense when saying ALL of the apostles saw Him.
I understand the order.
He appeared first to the women; then to 2 of them, one whose name was Cleopas; then to the 11 apostles for the 1st time (or 10 if you read John's account for he said Thomas was not with the group this first time), then to the 11 a 2nd time with Thomas present; then a 3rd time to 7 of them at the sea of Tiberius; and then multiple times over the next 40 days; etc etc
So I don't understand what in the verses of 1 Cor 15 you read that makes you believe that there are no more apostles?
The women saw Jesus even, so seeing the resurrected Christ doesn't make one an apostle. Jesus has appeared to other people over the past 2000 years. you can read about it in accounts of church history. Paul saw Jesus quite a bit later.
IMO there is no scripture or historical data to back up the idea that there are no more apostles. The first 12 apostles will definately be given authority in heaven that other apostles do not because Revelations say the names of the 12 apostles will be written on the 12 foundations of the new city. So I do agree that they have a greater status than other apostles.
_____________________________
MY BLOG
http://reflectionsdeep.blogspot.com
|
|
|
|
|
RE: five fold ministry! - 4/17/2008 9:02:08 PM
|
|
|
sue244
Posts: 333
Joined: 6/7/2006
From: Colorado
Status: online
|
what part of He was seen by ALL of the Apostles do you not understand. They are part of the foundation that the church is built on. you don't keep building the foundation once its done, you build the building.
All so called modern day apostles have not seen the Risen Christ. That is a requierment for being an apostle, and as it says in 1 Cor 15 All the Apostles saw past tense the Risen Christ. No more after that because no one else fits that requierment.
But twist the word ALL, all you want, it doesn't change the fact that it means that all of the apostles were in the 1st century.
_____________________________
"It is a remarkable fact that all the heresies which have arisen in the Christian Church have had a decided tendency to 'dishonor God and to flatter man.'"
Spurgen
|
|
|
|
|
RE: five fold ministry! - 4/18/2008 11:08:38 PM
|
|
|
toetappen
Posts: 23
Joined: 11/14/2007
Status: offline
|
Soxfan,
what do you mean by: "comes from a deeply heretical and dangerous movement"?
I would really love to know the origin of the term "five-fold" if anyone knows for sure......
I have personal experience with a "five-fold" church. Some things I learned was that FOCUS is a big issue....the church was more about this than salvation of the lost. Everyone was scrambling to figure out who fit into what "office". Not everyone was an "office" holder, some of us were just ordinary joes. There was much emphasis placed on the "apostle". People held that office higher than the rest.....basically the people there were really really mixed up about the five-fold being the answer to church's problems. If there is any truth or importance of "five-fold" it has been tainted for me. But, at least I now know what some in the body of christ believe.....I wasn't aware this even existed before I went to that church. I really don't understand what importance there could be in even preaching about this issue......in light of a dying world and people going to hell -
I once was asked this question: "don't you want to come meet our prophet?" it was not asked by a person in the christian faith...... it came from a sincere member of another "religious" group - (o.k. it was a cult member trying to get me to attend their meetings). looking back now, it makes me laugh.....I could have asked the same thing!
_____________________________
There is nothing lost, that cannot be found, if sought...
|
|
|
|
|
RE: five fold ministry! - 4/19/2008 7:28:54 AM
|
|
|
FurGodWurLivin
Posts: 1087
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline
|
quote:
what part of He was seen by ALL of the Apostles do you not understand. They are part of the foundation that the church is built on. you don't keep building the foundation once its done, you build the building. Need I mention that this is the same argument that Universalism thrives on? Does "all" mean every single one or does "all" mean "all that we are referrencing"? That is the big problem we are running into. Now to the "foundation" thing...
Obviously nobody noticed when I debunked the Ephesians 2:20 argument, so I shall referrence it again. If you are using Ephesians 2:20 to say that the Apostles are only a part of the foundation and then stop using the past tense of the verse, we must then argue that Paul, Peter, James, John, and all the others ceased to be apostles when Paul penned those verses. Why? Because he used the PAST TENSE. Compare your verses and both are in the past tense, meaning that they are both referring to the same time period that would be PRIOR to the writing of Ephesians. Since Paul and John obviously did not cease to be Apostles, they had function beyond the scope of what we are arguing.
Has the house of God stopped growing? Of course not. Is the Bible readily available in every language? Of course not. Do the new converts in those people groups need people to preach, start churches, excercise spiritual authority over those churches, and walk in signs and wonders? Absolutely! Sounds like an Apostle to me.quote:
Soxfan,
what do you mean by: "comes from a deeply heretical and dangerous movement"?
I would really love to know the origin of the term "five-fold" if anyone knows for sure......
Soxfan is referring to the popularization of the five-fold ministry during the heyday of the Latter Rain movement. However, the five fold ministry is not a latter rain thing, but a New Testament thing. Ephesians 4 plainly tells us that Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Preachers, and Teachers have been given to the church for the equipping of the saints until we come to perfection and unity of the faith. Since we have not reached either of those plateaus, it should be obvious that all five are still given to the church... however, that is obviously not the case.
The main problem with the scholarship in this argument is that the people arguing against the existence of the Apostles and Prophets are interpreting Epesians 2:20 through the lens of Ephesians 4, and it should be the exact opposite. If you take it that way what Paul is saying is that Christ is the foundation layed by the Apostles and Prophets, and that apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers have been given to the church for the purpose of perfecting it in unity of the faith. This little argument should be all the proof you need that we are nowhere near the unity of the Faith.
Adam
_____________________________
I am hyena, Jesus is my Mufasa...
|
|
|
|
|
RE: five fold ministry! - 4/19/2008 10:07:05 AM
|
|
|
sue244
Posts: 333
Joined: 6/7/2006
From: Colorado
Status: online
|
quote:
Need I mention that this is the same argument that Universalism thrives on? Does "all" mean every single one or does "all" mean "all that we are referrencing"? That is the big problem we are running into. Now to the "foundation" thing...
Context context context. I'm not arguint that all in this sense means eveyrone in the world, so thats a redharing to pull out universalism. I'm saying that it says ALL the Apostles. meaning ALL of the Apostles as in it is referring to the Apostles.
quote:
Has the house of God stopped growing?
No one is saying it has, so that is another redhairing. What we are saying is that once you starting building the house you don't keep adding to the foundation, you build up fromt he foundation.
_____________________________
"It is a remarkable fact that all the heresies which have arisen in the Christian Church have had a decided tendency to 'dishonor God and to flatter man.'"
Spurgen
|
|
|
|
|
RE: five fold ministry! - 4/19/2008 9:05:16 PM
|
| | | |
Forum Tools
Printable Version
