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RE: five fold ministry! - 4/7/2008 6:14:16 PM
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map4
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
The reason we do not stone convicted adultorers is because we live do not live in a biblical society. False prophets are "conniving liars at the worst" I don't think so, these are those who would lead people to their eturnal condemnation and you want to let them off with a hand slap.
Don't the Muslims do something similar to this?
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RE: five fold ministry! - 4/7/2008 6:35:38 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 1534
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quote:
rlj:
John 8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
quote:
I don't think so, these are those who would lead people to their eturnal condemnation and you want to let them off with a hand slap.
I believe it is the job of the Lord to punish those who are false not mine and not yours. I would rather they repent and not have to deal with it at judgement
There are several reasons why Yeshua did not condemn the woman. First, it was not a proper court assembly. Second, He was not the appointed judge. They were simply asking His opinion. Third, there were not two witnesses. Also, this portion is only in Yochanan's(John's) account and is not in the earliest manuscripts, so it's validity is in question. So, to say that Yeshua overturned the commandment regarding adultry based on this passage is presumptious.
I to would prefer that people repent, but I also believe we are given the responsibility tomaintain an orderly society here on earth. That said lets try to frame our comments in a way that relates to the topic of spiritual gifts in this thread.
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RE: five fold ministry! - 4/7/2008 6:42:40 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
map4:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
The reason we do not stone convicted adultorers is because we live do not live in a biblical society. False prophets are "conniving liars at the worst" I don't think so, these are those who would lead people to their eturnal condemnation and you want to let them off with a hand slap.
Don't the Muslims do something similar to this?
If you are implying that it is wrong because Muslims do it, I would remind you that Muslims also blow their noses and that does not make it wrong for me to do the same.
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: five fold ministry! - 4/7/2008 6:51:10 PM
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earthless
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So.... under what nation's legal system would you be stoning these people under? Or are you going to turn yourself in for murder afterwards?
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RE: five fold ministry! - 4/7/2008 7:06:48 PM
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Bluethread
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Under Adonai's legal system these stonings will be initiated by the witnesses after a proper trial. At this time the is no nations that reconize Adonai's legal system, so the stoning of false prophets can not take place at this time. All nations have some form of legal system. If we reject Adonai's system as revealed by His prophets, on what basis do we determine whether or not those other systems are just.
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: five fold ministry! - 4/7/2008 7:17:26 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Under Adonai's legal system these stonings will be initiated by the witnesses after a proper trial. At this time the is no nations that reconize Adonai's legal system, so the stoning of false prophets can not take place at this time. All nations have some form of legal system.
So in other words you're not going to be stoning anyone anytime soon.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
on what basis do we determine whether or not those other systems are just.
It's not necessarily a matter of those systems (governments) being just, but that we are to respect them - Romans 13.
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RE: five fold ministry! - 4/7/2008 7:50:05 PM
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Bluethread
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.prophetica.:
It is a bit presumptious to state to say that only true prophets were stoned. We can not be sure if all of the stonings were recorded. We just know that we have not made proper judgements in the past. However, that does not releave us of the responsability of maintaining biblical society.
quote:
earthless:
It's not necessarily a matter of those systems (governments) being just, but that we are to respect them - Romans 13.
The problem with that interpetation of the Romans 13 passage is that tyrants can use it as Hitler did to pacify the people of Adonai. I believe that Roman13 refers to religious authorities, as Yeshua(Jesus) advised us to do as they say, not as they do.
The passage that tells us to, as much as possible, live at peace with those around us might be a better choice.
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: five fold ministry! - 4/7/2008 7:59:31 PM
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ta_mosquito
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MODERATOR'S NOTE :: ATTENTION PLEASE
Topic, please (which isn't about stoning or eating pork...)
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RE: five fold ministry! - 4/7/2008 8:05:54 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
I believe that Roman13 refers to religious authorities, as Yeshua(Jesus) advised us to do as they say, not as they do.
The passage that tells us to, as much as possible, live at peace with those around us might be a better choice.
Thank goodness for context - the Apostle Paul was clear that he was speaking about secular/society/government. Read both chapter 12 and 13 of Romans to see.
But you make a very valid and truthful point about it not being blind submission to any and all government entities. Romans 13 is a treatise by Paul and the Apostles on the institution of model government. As we rightly divide the word of truth and take this passage in its total context, we will discover seven truths:
1. Good government is ordained by God.
2. Government officials are to be good ministers who represent God.
3. We the people must obey good and godly laws.
4. As we relate Romans 13 to America, our Constitution is the higher power -- not the IRS tax code.
5. Good government is not to be feared.
6. In America, we are to pay honor and custom and constitutional taxes to whom it is due.
7. Government is to protect the righteous and punish the wicked.
As a result, we have a practical, historical and biblical mandate to fervently disobey any unconstitutional laws and all government officials who cease to be good ministers of Jesus Christ. God almighty is the only power that deserves unlimited obedience.
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RE: five fold ministry! - 4/7/2008 8:10:29 PM
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cybrjewls
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
4. As we relate Romans 13 to America, our Constitution is the higher power -- not the IRS tax code.
LOL! Good Government would also make sure that the generous spirit of the 'code' was not being taken advantage of concerning 'prosperity teachers'.
< Message edited by .prophetica. -- 4/7/2008 8:18:21 PM >
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RE: five fold ministry! - 4/7/2008 8:14:39 PM
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earthless
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Greetings, prophetica! For the Caturday Lord saith that all things funny are indeed good.
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RE: five fold ministry! - 4/7/2008 8:18:48 PM
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ta_mosquito
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MODERATOR'S NOTE :: ATTENTION PLEASE
TOPIC!
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RE: five fold ministry! - 4/8/2008 2:36:28 AM
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FurGodWurLivin
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quote:
Adam, don't put a front. Her words were clear enough for anyone to understand their meaning. Now you're saying that if a church doesn't believe in speaking in tongues as a sign of being filled with the Holy Spirit then they are not "spirit-filled"? They are clear enough if you are looking for a reason to get offended. Every Christian has the Spirit inside of them because that is the right of those who have been redeemed. However, there is also the baptism of the spirit which in the New Testament was evidenced by the speaking of new tongues... not only by that, but most often by that. So, in the connotation of being "spirit filled", yes... if you do not believe in tongues as a sign of being baptized with the Spirit, you are not a "spirit filled" church. Just like if you don't believe that Baptism is necessary for salvation, you are not a Baptist church. It is not in the slightest bit offensive unless you are WANTING to be offended.
I in no way intend to "put up a front" for myself or anyone else and I reject the accusation that I was attempting to. I have always tried and will always try to be as honest as I can with my opinions and postings... so do me a favor and don't go there... it just makes your argument look that much weaker.quote:
Yes, something that I have been saying for years here on these boards. A true Prophet will not only speak true prophecies (duh) but will also teach sound doctrine. Which we know many of those calling themselves Prophets fail on both accounts. **Rotation number 937 completed** So now we are back round the circle to what actually counts as "sound doctrine". I have personally encountered people who prophesied incredibly accurately at least to me... so if they teach "sound doctrine" according to the seven church councils, they MIGHT be a Prophet. I will not argue that there are plenty of people who call themselves prophets and apostles that are nothing of the kind...... just crack open a dusty copy of Charisma Magazine and you will find plenty of advertisements for them. However, I will argue that those pretenders do NOT make the ministry of an Apostle or Prophet illegitimate.quote:
No, not I - the Bible has done so for New Testament believers which include you and I. This goes back to a point I made in a different thread... if you try hard enough, you can make anything a heresy. In order to make your claim, you then have to ignore everything I posted about Ephesians 4 and Ephesians 2. So I can just as easily accuse you of throwing out scripture to hold onto you choice doctrines as you can accuse me.quote:
Adam, you're not above the fray. Meaning what, exactly? I feel like you intended to insinuate something and I didn't get it...
If what you intended is that I think myself "spiritually elite" you are oh so mistaken. I have never put down anyone's spirituality or their salvation. All I am doing is arguing that the Prophet and Apostle did not cease after the 1st century because there IS NO BIBLICAL EVIDENCE OF IT. You are constantly saying that everything should "stand or fall in the light of scripture"... yet when scripture itself declares that some are given to be Apostles and Prophets you try to dodge around it. What stands in the light of scripture is that the Office of Apostle and Prophet have not stopped functioning... rather, they have started to be used improperly.quote:
Typical Charismatic elitism!
Unless people babble in tongues, cluck like chickens, fall all over the floor, or flop around like fish out of water, somehow they are not "spirit-filled". quote:
Even if they are not doing those things, why carry on about a heightened spirituality and exercise of spiritual gifts when it just doesn't pan out? You guys done yet? Rather than getting all huff-and-puff, lets keep this on topic please...
Adam
< Message edited by FurGodWurLivin -- 4/8/2008 2:42:47 AM >
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RE: five fold ministry! - 4/8/2008 10:41:00 AM
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wintery
Posts: 1884
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
quote:
Even if they are not doing those things, why carry on about a heightened spirituality and exercise of spiritual gifts when it just doesn't pan out?
You guys done yet? Rather than getting all huff-and-puff, lets keep this on topic please...
Adam
Adam, there are eight (8) more sentences in that post that address the character failings of those claiming to be apostles and prophets.
Let's check the OP:
quote:
ORIGINAL: bassmandrex
Where are these people that actually fulfill this passage of scripture today?
I know that there are many pastors, teachers, evangelists, but i dont hear or know to much about apostles and prophets these days.
So I'll try again. When I hear about those that claim to be apostles and prophets, or who let others claim them to be apostles and prophets, or who let on as if they are apostles and prophets but dodge the titles because they'd get caught--which is not walking in the light by the way, when the character is not there, then the supposed higher spirituality is not there. I care not how many angels are speaking to them or how many dreams they have, and I do not care how many flowery teachings they come up with, if they don't show by their lives they are closer to God then they simply are not. Failing to understand this allows for other weird doctrines to come in, as in retroactively naming historical figures as apostles and prophets when they were not even thought of remotely as this in their lifetimes.
The foundation has been established. Ephesians 2:20: And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
What a fanciful idea, that goes to, as I said in my previous post, a vain puffing up of the flesh. Interesting how those who are trying in the flesh to reproduce an apostolic or prophetic experience also look into the Old Testament and try to reproduce those experiences. The flesh is certainly capable of betraying us, and as I said before there are those who are kidding themselves.
The Apostles of the Lamb went out and magnified Christ. What am I to think of those who magnify themselves?
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RE: five fold ministry! - 4/8/2008 11:10:18 AM
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MrsOliver
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Very Interesting thoughts indeed!!!
Thanks Adam for your input.
Furgodwurlivin!! Thank you for your input as well!!! And others who can fathom that GOD MIGHT JUST BE BIGGER THAN YOU!! Bigger than your insecurities that keeps you from "Babbling in tongues" Clucking like Chickens, falling on the floor, etc....
Labeled as prophesying? Or labeled as a prophet? Like it has been said, you will disqualify any one because you do not believe in this Gift of the spirit!!!
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RE: five fold ministry! - 4/8/2008 11:26:59 AM
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wintery
Posts: 1884
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrsOliver
Labeled as prophesying? Or labeled as a prophet? Like it has been said, you will disqualify any one because you do not believe in this Gift of the spirit!!!
Hello MrsOliver,
They disqualify themselves. A comparison of all the contradictory and unfulfilled prophecies shows that it is impossible for these words to be from God--He is not the author of confusion. 1 Corinthians 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
As I said the foundation has been laid. Should God's Word, the written Word be neglected in favor of an exuberant outburst?
The shoe is on the other foot. No matter how many times supposed Apostles and Prophets get it wrong and "mess up", there is no rejection of them, even from their "exalted" offices.
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RE: five fold ministry! - 4/8/2008 1:08:01 PM
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MrsOliver
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Wintery,
I am not suggesting, what so ever that prophesy is confusion and true at the same time. I am saying, prophetic words are common in my church family and many have come to pass and others are not timed out yet. I have seen "labeled" prophets and prophetess prophesy truth!
From my experience! Again, from my experience, I have seen prophesy fulfilled! And all are not labeled prophets. The Gift of prophesy does not have to be labeled and publicized. It just is. I have prophesied and it did come to pass! Am I a prophet, I am not declaring that. I am saying that when God feels the need, he uses me in that area. And I am not afraid to be used in that area.
Jimbofletch~ as I have seen some 'acting' in some churches I will still stand on my own personal experience and that is, I use to be afraid of those that would speak in tongues, become slain in the spirit, etc. And it wasn't until I overcame my fear of what I did not know and understand, that God revealed to me the Gifts he has for me to use, to advance HIS KINGDOM!!! The Gift of discernment is of utmost importants and I understand it very well.
But it appears to me that there is a lot of labeling in this thread. What I mean is...if someone is speaking in tongues, or "falling out", or clucking like a chicken as one person posted ~ then they must be off their rocker, because according to a lot of people on here, that just isn't 'gifts' that were extented to us latter day Christians. I disagree. I will look and sound as foolish as any man thinks, because I SERVE MY LORD and in that, everything won’t be as the world thinks of as normal.
And for those of you who couldn't possible be open to the idea that God CAN AND WILL use those gifts to advance his Kingdom, then I will repeat my first post, You are missing out on the fullness of Christ. As I once was!
It wasn't until I got "out of the way of myself", meaning my fears, before God could use me like HE intended.
All and all it has still been agreed and refuted through passage after passage, back and forth...and yet, it is still each and every persons ability and preference to be used by God in the manner that is comfortable for them.
We shouldn't say, well I don't agree with that, because GOD couldn't possibly use "clucking like a chicken" for HIS GLORY!!! How do you know? Do you know God through and through? Because I am sure you don't. And the world is not cookie cutter formula. God uses all things together for HIS GLORY!
We could throw scripture back and forth all day long...as has been done. But at the end of the day, it is still me facing God alone, and you facing God alone and our own personal experience with HIM. Where HE is calling us individually!
I won’t trade my experience for anything in this world, because it brings me closer to Jesus, and to a better understanding of God! And My spiritual experiences have helped to encourage, edify, build, deliver, bring understanding, healing and reveal the power of God that we all have access to.
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RE: five fold ministry! - 4/8/2008 1:49:11 PM
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earthless
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MrsOliver,
Have you had a chance to read my reply to you on the prior page?
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RE: five fold ministry! - 4/8/2008 2:05:06 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrsOliver
....I won’t trade my experience for anything in this world, because it brings me closer to Jesus, and to a better understanding of God! And My spiritual experiences have helped to encourage, edify, build, deliver, bring understanding, healing and reveal the power of God that we all have access to.
Okay, show me Jesus in the following advice from one believer to another:
"...and give him some of his own medicine. See how he likes it."
When I read it, I was floored until I realized it came from someone who is willing to go without insecurities of discernment.
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RE: five fold ministry! - 4/8/2008 3:37:27 PM
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wintery
Posts: 1884
Joined: 2/1/2007
From: nw alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrsOliver
Wintery,
I am not suggesting, what so ever that prophesy is confusion and true at the same time. I am saying, prophetic words are common in my church family and many have come to pass and others are not timed out yet. I have seen "labeled" prophets and prophetess prophesy truth!
Nothing false, right? Right?
quote:
ORIGINAL: MrsOliver
From my experience! Again, from my experience, I have seen prophesy fulfilled! And all are not labeled prophets. The Gift of prophesy does not have to be labeled and publicized. It just is. I have prophesied and it did come to pass! Am I a prophet, I am not declaring that. I am saying that when God feels the need, he uses me in that area. And I am not afraid to be used in that area.
MrsOliver, I am not unfamiliar with supposed prophecies:
"You in the yellow shirt...I hear him saying nice things about you!"
"This area is going to be destroyed by greed...I have seen a tornado! Now we will pass the plate again...."
"They had just given me something for the pain...and that's when I saw God!"
I guess that last one would be more of a "vision". Those are just examples of things I've heard.
I'm not totally eliminating the gift of prophecy...however, the more false I hear the more weight the cessationist arguments carry, for me anyway.
quote:
ORIGINAL: MrsOliver
What I mean is...if someone is speaking in tongues, or "falling out", or clucking like a chicken as one person posted ~ then they must be off their rocker, because according to a lot of people on here, that just isn't 'gifts' that were extented to us latter day Christians. I disagree. I will look and sound as foolish as any man thinks, because I SERVE MY LORD and in that, everything won’t be as the world thinks of as normal.
The way I read it, 1 Corintians 14:19 leaves no room for imitating animals: Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.
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RE: five fold ministry! - 4/8/2008 4:47:26 PM
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Bluethread
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As long as we keep going on diatribes, making dogmatic statements and setting up straw dogs, we will get nowhere. From what I have seen in this thread, there is no clear statement in the Scriptures that any gift has been done away with. That is not to say that there are not charlatians that make charades of the gifts. The real tests are do the actions or professions violate agreed upon Scripture and do they result in better community. This can only be determined on a case by case basis.
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 4/8/2008 4:53:56 PM >
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RE: five fold ministry! - 4/8/2008 5:59:58 PM
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MrsOliver
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earthless~
Thank you for your post. However it appears to me that you are giving a lot of your oppinion and suggesting that "all" prophets are are just making up what they are saying.
I never stated that I agree with "all" prophets, as I don't agree with every one who states that they "Christian". Every one falls short of the Glory of God. You, me, leaders, teachers, prophets, apostles, everyone. it doesn't matter what position God gives you or that you feel you hold, you will fall short and make mistakes. And some are just outragious and wouldn't agree with them. However, i will give it time to pass before I make my claim that it wont!
quote:
has become the anthem of the Charismatic movement. Strange private prophecies are proclaimed by all kinds of people who evidently believe God speaks to them.
so are you suggesting that people/ any people don't "hear" from God? they just evidently believe God Speaks to them? Has God ever told you anything?
quote:
We may gasp at Oral Roberts' hubris, but he is not the only charismatic who thinks he is receiving private revelation from God. Most charismatics at one time or another feel that God speaks to them in some specific manner, either through an audible voice, an internal impression, a vision, or simply by using them as a vehicle to write a song, compose a poem, or utter a prophecy.
I am getting your point that you don't believe that God talks to poeple through all of these avenues??? am I wrong in your feeling from this text?
quote:
Linda Fehl, founder of Rapha Ranch, sells a tape with a song titled, "The Holy Ghost." She says the song was given to her by the Holy Spirit as she was being healed by cancer. An editor for a Christian publisher once told me that he receives submissions every week from people who claim God inspired them to write their book, article, song, or poem. My editor friend noted that the manuscripts are often poorly written, filled with bad grammar, marred by factual and logical errors, or full of poems that either mutilate the language or attempt to rhyme but just miss.
I find this interesting...are you stating your oppinion? How do you know God did not give her this song? She was healed of Cancer, and God can't talk to her? I am just wondering? You seem to "know" that God can't talk to people, however it would take me a week to post every scripture that says he does!
quote:
Lest you think cranks, obscure eccentrics, or naive believers are the only ones who would make such claims,
So is this your oppinion as well?
I suppose I am a crank, obscure accentrics or naive believer, because I have seen and witnessed the power of God? I will be what ever you say. I know what I know and that's good enough for me!
my only question to you is, Why on Earth would you assume that God doesn't talk to people? I completely don't get it.
anyway, just wondering.
I find this thread completely fascinating in what people are willing to allow God to do in their life and what they aren't.
How do you dispute the power of God to do miraculous healings, deliverings, etc.? or does that not happen? is is just a mortal man?
Jimbofletch~ thank you for your 'oppinion' however, that is not the topic of this thread. also: quote:
When I read it, I was floored until I realized it came from someone who is willing to go without insecurities of discernment. Considering this is mis-quoted it is irrelevent to me. I didn't say anything of the sort.
Wintery~
quote:
The way I read it, 1 Corintians 14:19 leaves no room for imitating animals: Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.
I never made any kind of statement against this passage. In fact the topic was not directed at when and where a person 'should' be speaking in tongues. and the "clucking chickens" well that was some one elses post, I was just repeating. I have never heard any one sound like clucking chickens in any church.
So I will accept that all of my questions are rhetorical questions because I don’t really care to entertain this any longer. You believe what you believe, I believe what I believe and this is a forum of diverse beliefs coming from one book, The Bible. Otherwise we wouldn’t be debating the word of God. I would agree that is why there are so many different beliefs and churches in the world. Many lead to the same place however we all choose what we are comfortable with. And yet, it doesn't mean we can't learn from each other.
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