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RE: five fold ministry! - 4/4/2008 4:33:17 PM
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rlj
Posts: 1631
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quote:
If the canon isn't closed than there is no way to hold anyone accountable to anything. One can't verify teachings to the Word if the Word is still changing.
If scripture isn't closed then anyone can add whatever they want to it. If Canon can be changed (scripture) then who is to say that Joseph Smith is wrong? If we doubt his authority to add the Third Testament of Christ we do it because of the Bible. If the bible itself can still be changed then what purpose is it?
Should I go pick up a Book of Mormon? Or perhaps Scientology? I know, I'll let the next batch of JW's who come over leave with a big smile on their faces. It doesn't mean much really when anyone that wants to change the word can just change it. I can't even go back to the word to see if they have the authority to change it because maybe it has already been changed and I missed it.
If the Canon of scripture hasn't changed and can't be changed then the answers to those questions are obvious.
For the record the Canon was considered "closed" no earlier then the end of the first century or perhaps in 367.
< Message edited by rlj -- 4/4/2008 4:42:54 PM >
_____________________________
-Roger
1 Thess 5:20 do not treat prophecies with contempt. 21 Test everything. Hold on to the good. (NIV)
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RE: five fold ministry! - 4/4/2008 7:18:29 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 794
Joined: 11/8/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rlj
quote:
If the canon isn't closed than there is no way to hold anyone accountable to anything. One can't verify teachings to the Word if the Word is still changing.
If scripture isn't closed then anyone can add whatever they want to it. If Canon can be changed (scripture) then who is to say that Joseph Smith is wrong? If we doubt his authority to add the Third Testament of Christ we do it because of the Bible. If the bible itself can still be changed then what purpose is it?
Should I go pick up a Book of Mormon? Or perhaps Scientology? I know, I'll let the next batch of JW's who come over leave with a big smile on their faces. It doesn't mean much really when anyone that wants to change the word can just change it. I can't even go back to the word to see if they have the authority to change it because maybe it has already been changed and I missed it.
If the Canon of scripture hasn't changed and can't be changed then the answers to those questions are obvious.
For the record the Canon was considered "closed" no earlier then the end of the first century or perhaps in 367.
The Scripture is to say that Joseph Smith is wrong. Yes, you are supposed to pick up the book of mormon and compare it with the agreed upon Scripture to see if it is correct. As I said in my previous post, which you might have missed do to simultanious posting, I do not believe the Torah (Word) has changed. Clarifications have been made to the written Torah because it is limited revelation.
If Joseph Smith's writings clarify what we agree is Scripture, which I don't believe is the case, then they deserve to be considered for canonization, as were the Haftorah(Psalms and Prophets) and the Apistolic Writings(new testiment).
The canon of Scripture was decided by scholastic concensis. In fact Martin Luther wanted to remove the epistle of Yakov(James) from the Scriptures. So canonization is a subject of great debate, but that needs to be another thread.
We had better get back to the issue of the spiritual gifts before we get our hands slapped.
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 4/4/2008 7:29:22 PM >
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: five fold ministry! - 4/5/2008 1:29:11 PM
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rlj
Posts: 1631
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quote:
We had better get back to the issue of the spiritual gifts before we get our hands slapped.
When someone makes the claim that the gift of prophecy is still active and that they believe that one way to determine the validity of a prophecy is to compare it to the scripture the scripture becomes relevant. Without a closed Canon of scripture you cannot compare what is said to the Word because the Word may have changed.
_____________________________
-Roger
1 Thess 5:20 do not treat prophecies with contempt. 21 Test everything. Hold on to the good. (NIV)
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RE: five fold ministry! - 4/5/2008 10:01:13 PM
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earthless
Posts: 4748
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From: where bbq pigeons roast....
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rlj
quote:
We had better get back to the issue of the spiritual gifts before we get our hands slapped.
When someone makes the claim that the gift of prophecy is still active and that they believe that one way to determine the validity of a prophecy is to compare it to the scripture the scripture becomes relevant. Without a closed Canon of scripture you cannot compare what is said to the Word because the Word may have changed.
And it opens the doors to those who claim God reveals to them new revelations. "God told me......" has become the anthem of the Charismatic movement. Strange private prophecies are proclaimed by all kinds of people who evidently believe God speaks to them.
Surely the most famous is Oral Roberts' preposterous death-threat prophecy. Roberts told his national wide audience in 1987 that God had threatened to "call him home" if he couldn't raise eight million dollars by his creditors' deadline. Whether and how that threat might have been carried out, the world will never know; Roberts received a last-minute reprieve in the form of a large check from a Florida dog-track owner.
We may gasp at Oral Roberts' hubris, but he is not the only charismatic who thinks he is receiving private revelation from God. Most charismatics at one time or another feel that God speaks to them in some specific manner, either through an audible voice, an internal impression, a vision, or simply by using them as a vehicle to write a song, compose a poem, or utter a prophecy.
Linda Fehl, founder of Rapha Ranch, sells a tape with a song titled, "The Holy Ghost." She says the song was given to her by the Holy Spirit as she was being healed by cancer. An editor for a Christian publisher once told me that he receives submissions every week from people who claim God inspired them to write their book, article, song, or poem. My editor friend noted that the manuscripts are often poorly written, filled with bad grammar, marred by factual and logical errors, or full of poems that either mutilate the language or attempt to rhyme but just miss.
Lest you think cranks, obscure eccentrics, or naive believers are the only ones who would make such claims, listen to Jack Hayford, internationally known author, media minister, and pastor of The Church on the Way in Van Nuys, California. Hayford told the Pentecostal Fellowship of North America that God has told him a new era is coming.
Where he claims he had a vision in which Jesus rose from His throne, began to lean forward from His seat. Jack Hayford goes on to say, "As the anointing caught in the folds of His garments, it began to splash out and fall over the church. Jesus said, "I am beginning to rise now in preparation for my second coming. Those who will rise with Me will share in this double portion of anointing."
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: five fold ministry! - 4/5/2008 11:19:53 PM
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rlj
Posts: 1631
Joined: 4/14/2005
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quote:
And it opens the doors to those who claim God reveals to them new revelations. "God told me......" has become the anthem of the Charismatic movement. Strange private prophecies are proclaimed by all kinds of people who evidently believe God speaks to them.
Which is why it becomes important to have a good knowledge of scripture so that what is said can be tested. In all honesty though I've heard the "God told me to tell you etc." more times then you'll hear requests for money in an afternoon of watching religious TV. I usually don't say much but "hmm, hmm, yes, sure, thank you". I'll listen to it, sort it by the Word, see if it applies and in every case but 1 I tilt my head and let it roll out. I'm sure if God wanted to tell me something He'd do it.
The Jack Hayford quote was interesting because you picked a level headed guy saying something. I'm not convinced it goes against scripture what he said. If the purpose of the Word is to get ready for the second coming of Christ that is something we should be doing even without a Vision or a word. As far as the double portion of anointing I don't know because I can't measure a single portion of it He does. I don't know that I could tell if this happens or not. I wouldn't say that makes it true or false though.
As far as Jack and his ministry through the years I'm not aware that he is a man that uses phoniness and false sayings to build up his ministry. From a character standpoint I don't see that as a problem. That one seems to me ok.
What I will say though is we shouldn't have to have this "word" to do the things that it says should be done- ie getting ready for the second coming- trying to save souls, get people ready, preach the word, etc. Either the Lord thought we needed this swift kick or Jack did and I am leaning on the Lord on this one.
What do you think and why?
_____________________________
-Roger
1 Thess 5:20 do not treat prophecies with contempt. 21 Test everything. Hold on to the good. (NIV)
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RE: five fold ministry! - 4/5/2008 11:37:22 PM
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tracydolls
Posts: 1163
Joined: 3/30/2008
From: Mpls, MN
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quote:
Where he claims he had a vision in which Jesus rose from His throne, began to lean forward from His seat. Jack Hayford goes on to say, "As the anointing caught in the folds of His garments, it began to splash out and fall over the church. Jesus said, "I am beginning to rise now in preparation for my second coming. Those who will rise with Me will share in this double portion of anointing."
I am a baby Christian, and when I say baby, I mean crawling baby.
But what jumped in this statement is"Those who will rise with Me will share in this double portion of anointing.
Where is that verse supporting that?
_____________________________
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
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RE: five fold ministry! - 4/6/2008 12:17:29 AM
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wintery
Posts: 889
Joined: 2/1/2007
From: nw alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
But what jumped in this statement is"Those who will rise with Me will share in this double portion of anointing.
Where is that verse supporting that?
Hi tracydolls,
I can't say that a verse actually supports what some use it for, but the reference is 2 Kings 2:9:
When they had crossed, Elijah said to Elisha, "Ask what I shall do for you, before I am taken from you." And Elisha said, "Please let there be a double portion of your spirit on me." (ESV)
This is actually a reference to Deuteronomy 21:17 regarding the right of the firstborn:
but he shall acknowledge the firstborn, the son of the unloved, by giving him a double portion of all that he has, for he is the firstfruits of his strength. The right of the firstborn is his. (ESV)
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RE: five fold ministry! - 4/6/2008 12:18:09 AM
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MrsOliver
Posts: 88
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From the posts on this thread I am venturing to say, that none of you attend a "spirit filled" church.
I have met and know several people who walk in a "5 fold" ministry. I myself have experienced Multiple gifts of the spirit.
Absolultely the gifts of
Apostles
Prophets
Evangelists
Pastor
Teacher
will line up with the Word as well as be confirmed by the holy spirit.
No one has yet mentioned, the prophet Joel 2:(The Day of the LORD)
28 "And afterward,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your old men will dream dreams,
your young men will see visions.
29 Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days.
all i can say is, you're missing out on the fullness of Christ. If you really want to know, Ask God to show you! And HE will! Sometimes we have to 'get outside of ourselves" to experience the fullness of Christ!
Mrs. Oliver
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RE: five fold ministry! - 4/6/2008 2:31:06 AM
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tracydolls
Posts: 1163
Joined: 3/30/2008
From: Mpls, MN
Status: offline
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quote:
Hi tracydolls,
I can't say that a verse actually supports what some use it for, but the reference is 2 Kings 2:9:
When they had crossed, Elijah said to Elisha, "Ask what I shall do for you, before I am taken from you." And Elisha said, "Please let there be a double portion of your spirit on me." (ESV)
This is actually a reference to Deuteronomy 21:17 regarding the right of the firstborn:
but he shall acknowledge the firstborn, the son of the unloved, by giving him a double portion of all that he has, for he is the firstfruits of his strength. The right of the firstborn is his. (ESV)
Thank you Wintrey.
I think it is being used wrongly. I cannot find any Scripture that supports "Jesus giving double annointing to those that rise/share in His second Coming.
MrsOliver,
I always ask when I see" spirit filled". By what spirits? The liquor store says wine and "spirits" 
_____________________________
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
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RE: five fold ministry! - 4/6/2008 5:02:47 AM
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FurGodWurLivin
Posts: 1060
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline
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quote:
From the posts on this thread I am venturing to say, that none of you attend a "spirit filled" church.
I have met and know several people who walk in a "5 fold" ministry. I myself have experienced Multiple gifts of the spirit.
Absolultely the gifts of
Apostles
Prophets
Evangelists
Pastor
Teacher
will line up with the Word as well as be confirmed by the holy spirit.
No one has yet mentioned, the prophet Joel 2:(The Day of the LORD)
28 "And afterward,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your old men will dream dreams,
your young men will see visions.
29 Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days.
all i can say is, you're missing out on the fullness of Christ. If you really want to know, Ask God to show you! And HE will! Sometimes we have to 'get outside of ourselves" to experience the fullness of Christ!
Mrs. Oliver My dear, Mrs. Oliver. I thank you for your support or my stance on this issue. I will gingerly inform you that Joel 2, and much of the Old Testament for that matter, are not popular subjects on here and are more likely to start a fight than solve one. I heartily agree with you that Joel 2 is the veritable slam-dunk for God opening a can on the forces of darkness in out world at the end of the age... However, from several years of religious arguments, I know that the verse that flat out confirms your position has some kind of explanation that makes it not say what it says. For an example, see earlier when I dissected Ephesians 4:11 and Ephesians 2:20. Just a hunch, but this may be past the realm of arguing.
Adam
_____________________________
I am hyena, Jesus is my Mufasa...
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RE: five fold ministry! - 4/6/2008 8:59:07 AM
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rlj
Posts: 1631
Joined: 4/14/2005
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quote:
From the posts on this thread I am venturing to say, that none of you attend a "spirit filled" church.
I have met and know several people who walk in a "5 fold" ministry. I myself have experienced Multiple gifts of the spirit.
When I have attended church since Feb. of 1989 it has always been Spirit-Filled churches. I concur with just about everything you say.
quote:
I think it is being used wrongly. I cannot find any Scripture that supports "Jesus giving double annointing to those that rise/share in His second Coming.
I'm having a hard time trying to describe this. The prophecy said if you get to work and do what needs to be done I believe the Lord will double double the impact of what you're doing. It's hard for me to describe anointing because it was a word that wasn't often used in my circles being reserved for certain people who displayed some gifting for doing something. I would call Billy Graham an anointed Evangelist for his ministry because of its fruit.
Adam - on your last comment I gave up with trying to convert the proverbial choir years ago. Belief in the gifts has no impact on whether or not one is a christian and no impact on the fact that we should regard others as better than ourselves. You do have an excellent grasp of what the word has to say about them though.
_____________________________
-Roger
1 Thess 5:20 do not treat prophecies with contempt. 21 Test everything. Hold on to the good. (NIV)
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RE: five fold ministry! - 4/6/2008 5:25:02 PM
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earthless
Posts: 4748
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where bbq pigeons roast....
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Classic.
"Spiritual elitism" - now all of us that dare question the teachings and failed prophecies of so-called prophets and apostles are not in Spirit-filled churches and hence, perhaps, we're not even Christians to begin with.
CLASSIC garbage from the movement that places emotions and experiences above the very Word of God.
Mrs. Oliver you claim there are people today that hold the OFFICE of Prophet and Apostle - can you please name even one Prophet? Because ALL of those named are documented to be false because of their failed prophecies.
The only test of a true prophet is the truthfulness of his prophecies: "How shall we know the word which the Lord has not spoken? When a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the thing does not come about or come true, that is the thing which the Lord has not spoken. The prophet has spoken it presumptuously" (Deuteronomy 18:21-22).
What was the penalty under the law for such a prophecy? "The prophet who shall speak a word presumptuously in My name which I have not commanded him to speak... that prophet shall die" (18:20).
Astonishingly, in a five-page discussion on how to discern false prophets, a leader of the movement never once speaks of accuracy or truthfulness as a test!
In fact, he explicitly states that he believes those are not valid tests of the prophet's credentials. He believes lying prophecies do not necessarily disqualify a person from speaking for God. He concludes his section on discerning false prophets with this: "Prophets are, of course, human beings. As such, they can make mistakes and lie. They need not cease to be prophets for their mistakes and failings."
That statement betrays an appalling ignorance of what Scripture says about inspired prophecy. The New Testament prophetic gift (Romans 12:6; 1 Corinthians 12:10) primarily has to do with declaration, not revelation. The New Testament prophet "speaks to men for edification and exhortation and comfort" (1 Corinthians 14:3). He is a preacher, not a source of ongoing revelation. His task is one of forth-telling, not foretelling. That is, he proclaims already revealed truth; he is not generally a conduit for new revelation.
In the early church, before the New Testament was complete, certain prophets were used by God on occasion to exhort the church with messages inspired as the prophet spoke. That was necessary to instruct the churches in matters that were not yet covered by Scripture. This revelatory aspect of prophecy was unique to the apostolic era.
The contemporary charismatic perspective that makes every prophet an instrument of divine revelation cheapens both Scripture and prophecy. By permitting these so-called prophets to mix error with messages supposedly "fresh from God's lips," some have opened the floodgates to false teaching, confusion, error, fanaticism, and chaos.
How could a message genuinely inspired by God be tainted with error or lies? Inspired prophecy would have to be on level with Scripture. It is the very Word of God.
Every prophetic revelation contains a "Thus saith the Lord" - if not explicitly, then implicitly. Revelatory prophecy is not the prophet's opinion or speculation. It is not a mere impression in his mind. It is not a guess or a divination. It has nothing whatever to do with soothsaying. It is a word from the Lord (1 Samuel 3:1; Jeremiah 37:17).
And since the prophet purports to speak for God, he is held to the highest standard of accountability - and judged with the utmost severity if he prophecies falsely (Deuteronomy 13:1-5; 18:20-22).
It stands to reason that since a prophet speaking revelation is a mouthpiece for God's own words, every authentic prophetic revelation will be as true, reliable, and inerrant as Scripture itself.
Otherwise, either we make God a liar, or we must downgrade the meaning of revelation and in effect embrace a secondary level of inspiration. We would have to devise a theory in which God somehow enables contemporary prophets to deliver a message that is a true word from Him, but not as authoritative as Scripture.
That is precisely what some apologists for modern charismatic prophecy have attempted to do.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: five fold ministry! - 4/6/2008 6:10:07 PM
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map4
Posts: 75
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
Classic.
"Spiritual elitism" - now all of us that dare question the teachings and failed prophecies of so-called prophets and apostles are not in Spirit-filled churches and hence, perhaps, we're not even Christians to begin with.
"Spiritual elitism" goes both ways.
We seem to only see it in the ones we disagree with. Just about everyone in this forum displays "spiritual elitism" at one time or another, IMO. And I think it puts people on the defensive which in turn hinders productiive discussion.
I just think before we throw that phrase around we should take a good look in the mirror. The HS has been showing me areas in my life where I have been guilty of this (in spiritual matters as well as nonspiritual).
Enough of my soapbox...don't want to hijack the thread...
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RE: five fold ministry! - 4/6/2008 8:27:49 PM
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FurGodWurLivin
Posts: 1060
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline
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quote:
Adam - on your last comment I gave up with trying to convert the proverbial choir years ago. Belief in the gifts has no impact on whether or not one is a christian and no impact on the fact that we should regard others as better than ourselves. You do have an excellent grasp of what the word has to say about them though. Thank you... and very true as well.
quote:
Classic.
"Spiritual elitism" - now all of us that dare question the teachings and failed prophecies of so-called prophets and apostles are not in Spirit-filled churches and hence, perhaps, we're not even Christians to begin with.
CLASSIC garbage from the movement that places emotions and experiences above the very Word of God. There has been no spiritual elitism in this discussion. Rather, this would be an emotional strawman with absolutely no bearing on our current conversation. No one questioned anyone's christianity, rather, if you were in a church that believed in the baptism of the Holy Spirit or not. That is a big difference.quote:
The only test of a true prophet is the truthfulness of his prophecies: "How shall we know the word which the Lord has not spoken? When a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the thing does not come about or come true, that is the thing which the Lord has not spoken. The prophet has spoken it presumptuously" (Deuteronomy 18:21-22). And according to Deuteronomy 13, accuracy is NOT the mark of a prophet. "If there arises among you a prophet or a dreamer of dreams, and he gives you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or the wonder comes to pass, of which he spoke to you, saying, 'Let us go after other gods' -which you have not known-'and let us serve them,' you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams, for the LORD your God is testing you to know whether you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul." Once again, we see taking a few verses at the expense of the rest.quote:
That statement betrays an appalling ignorance of what Scripture says about inspired prophecy. The New Testament prophetic gift (Romans 12:6; 1 Corinthians 12:10) primarily has to do with declaration, not revelation. The New Testament prophet "speaks to men for edification and exhortation and comfort" (1 Corinthians 14:3). He is a preacher, not a source of ongoing revelation. His task is one of forth-telling, not foretelling. That is, he proclaims already revealed truth; he is not generally a conduit for new revelation. So you have folded the Office of a Prophet into the Office of a Teacher. There is a switch. quote:
In the early church, before the New Testament was complete, certain prophets were used by God on occasion to exhort the church with messages inspired as the prophet spoke. That was necessary to instruct the churches in matters that were not yet covered by Scripture. This revelatory aspect of prophecy was unique to the apostolic era. Based on what, your commentary? Basically you have lessened the Apostles to church planters and the Prophets to itinerant teachers. Neither of these are copacetic with what an Apostle or Prophet are. There has to be a difference between a Prophet and the New Testament gift of Prophecy because Ephesians states that some have been given to be prophets, and 1 Corinthians 14 says that all can prophesy. Both cannot be true under your current definition.quote:
How could a message genuinely inspired by God be tainted with error or lies? Inspired prophecy would have to be on level with Scripture. It is the very Word of God. Once again, this is assuming that the message being spoken is word for word how the message was recieved. Considering how much stuff there is in the human process between a thought in the brain and a word from the mouth, I have no difficulty believing in small changes that are erroneous. Did you see the movie "Luther"? I will never forget what Joseph Fiennes said in the attic... "It's not about the word, it is what the word says about God." That is the point of prophecy. The words themselves might not be 100%, but the message and intent can still be.quote:
"Spiritual elitism" goes both ways.
We seem to only see it in the ones we disagree with. Just about everyone in this forum displays "spiritual elitism" at one time or another, IMO. And I think it puts people on the defensive which in turn hinders productiive discussion.
I just think before we throw that phrase around we should take a good look in the mirror. The HS has been showing me areas in my life where I have been guilty of this (in spiritual matters as well as nonspiritual).
Enough of my soapbox...don't want to hijack the thread... **Ding!** +1up, map4! I must always give my nod to a moderative voice...
Adam
_____________________________
I am hyena, Jesus is my Mufasa...
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RE: five fold ministry! - 4/6/2008 9:16:25 PM
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rlj
Posts: 1631
Joined: 4/14/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
Otherwise, either we make God a liar, or we must downgrade the meaning of revelation and in effect embrace a secondary level of inspiration. We would have to devise a theory in which God somehow enables contemporary prophets to deliver a message that is a true word from Him, but not as authoritative as Scripture.
That's biblical. Show me in the bible the prophecies of King Saul. Show me in the bible the prophecies of the 100 prophets that Obadiah hid. Show me in the bible the prophecies of those prophets who met King Saul after Samuel revealed that he would be king. What of the company of prophets with Elisha? I believe that all of these men were prophets but I'm not aware of their prophetic words making their way into scripture.
quote:
What was the penalty under the law for such a prophecy? "The prophet who shall speak a word presumptuously in My name which I have not commanded him to speak... that prophet shall die" (18:20).
What was the penalty under the law for adultery? We could spend a good deal of time making a list of Old Covenant penalties that are no longer the same under the New Covenant. Just ate some yummy pork processed hot dogs cooked outside before I posted this. ; )
quote:
In the early church, before the New Testament was complete, certain prophets were used by God on occasion to exhort the church with messages inspired as the prophet spoke. That was necessary to instruct the churches in matters that were not yet covered by Scripture. This revelatory aspect of prophecy was unique to the apostolic era.
The Apostle John exhorted his readers to test the spirits because there were false prophets at that time. Interestingly I don't recall him recomending their execution. The prophet Agabus predicted a famine. Then he predicted the imprisonment of Paul at Rome. There was the prophet who exposed the Cretans. The prophetic word that imparted the gift to Timothy.
If the purpose of the prophets was ended why didn't Paul just say "the prophets among you now will soon pass away"? Wouldn't that have ended this debate a couple thousand years ago? There is no prophet today that is equal to a prophet of the old testament. There is no Apostle today that is equal to one of the original 12. There is no one today who has any right to add to the Canon of scripture. If one can modify the spiritual gifts mentioned in 1 Corinthians then one can modify the rest. We have no idea exactly what was said by the prophet that Paul mentions to Titus except a few brief words or the contents of the prophecy over Timothy.
I don't disagree with you when you say that there needs to be integrity and accountability if one is going to use spiritual gifts or shall we at least agree when someone claims they are using a spiritual gift. Once again though under the New Covenant I see no mention by any writer of scripture that false prophets should now be put to death. If we're going to keep that part of the law then we have a duty to keep all of the law.
_____________________________
-Roger
1 Thess 5:20 do not treat prophecies with contempt. 21 Test everything. Hold on to the good. (NIV)
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RE: five fold ministry! - 4/6/2008 10:27:26 PM
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sue244
Posts: 333
Joined: 6/7/2006
From: Colorado
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quote:
Once again, this is assuming that the message being spoken is word for word how the message was recieved. Considering how much stuff there is in the human process between a thought in the brain and a word from the mouth, I have no difficulty believing in small changes that are erroneous.
So why trust the Bible if changes can occure between what God says and the prophet wrote down?
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"It is a remarkable fact that all the heresies which have arisen in the Christian Church have had a decided tendency to 'dishonor God and to flatter man.'"
Spurgen
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RE: five fold ministry! - 4/7/2008 1:01:36 AM
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Ezra
Posts: 1984
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrsOliver
From the posts on this thread I am venturing to say, that none of you attend a "spirit filled" church.
Mrs. Oliver:
If by "spirit filled" you mean "charismatic", you may be right. Not all are charismatic, but that does not mean that non-charismatic churches do not have Spirit-filled believers. That is a great fallacy, and does discredit to the Holy Spirit.
quote:
I have met and know several people who walk in a "5 fold" ministry. I myself have experienced Multiple gifts of the spirit.
This does not necessarily prove anything. Many claims are being made, but few are being substantiated.
quote:
Absolultely the gifts of
Apostles
Prophets
Evangelists
Pastor
Teacher
Apostles and prophets were given the ability to do "signs and wonders", starting with Moses. Do you have incontrovertible evidence that these apostles and prophets have actually performed genuine signs and wonders to substantiate their claims? Please publish them.
Also. apostles and prophets were given Divine revelation equal to Scripture, and which became Scripture. What about your apostles and prophets? Have they brought Scripture to your church and can it be applied to all churches worldwide? Joseph Smith thought he brought something superior to Scripture, but it turned out to be a fake.
quote:
will line up with the Word as well as be confirmed by the holy spirit.
To line up with the Word, these men must be able to say that their words are literally God's words, and they have brought something which was not formerly revealed. As a matter of fact, the last book of the Bible closes this option altogether, so where does this leave your apostles and prophets?
quote:
No one has yet mentioned, the prophet Joel 2:(The Day of the LORD)
28 "And afterward,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your old men will dream dreams,
your young men will see visions.
29 Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days.
If you will kindly go to Joel 2:27, you will note in context that this prophecy was given to Israel, was partially fulfilled in Israel (Acts 2), and will be finally fulfilled in Israel just before the Day of the Lord:
And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed.
We cannot take what applies to Israel and indiscriminately apply it to the Church. This is what is being done today by many.
quote:
all i can say is, you're missing out on the fullness of Christ. If you really want to know, Ask God to show you! And HE will! Sometimes we have to 'get outside of ourselves" to experience the fullness of Christ!
The fulness of Christ dwells in every believer (1 Jn. 4:15), therefore refusal to acknoweldge modern "apostles and prophets" does not detract from that. Discerning Christians know that there are no apostles and prophets today. Just evangelists, pastors, and teachers.
< Message edited by Ezra -- 4/7/2008 1:08:50 AM >
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And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: five fold ministry! - 4/7/2008 6:45:05 AM
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FurGodWurLivin
Posts: 1060
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline
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quote:
Apostles and prophets were given the ability to do "signs and wonders", starting with Moses. Do you have incontrovertible evidence that these apostles and prophets have actually performed genuine signs and wonders to substantiate their claims? Please publish them.
Incontrovertable is a very funny word... It's one of those words that gets used a lot but nobody really substantiates what they mean. We had a person at my church who's doctor got saved because God healed them. Is that incontrovertable enough? How about preventative miracles? Baby (A) is about to be born but the umbilical cord is wrapped around their neck and they can't get out... then a bit of prayer later Baby (A) is born with no defects or complications... is that "valid"? These are people that I have known and had personal contact with. Yet for some reason I know someone is going to say that that isn't "good enough". Why is it not good enough? Because we are too cynical to believe that it can happen. Doctor's notes can be faked... stories can be embellished... people can be bribed. Yet for some reason, we are more willing to blame the "seemingly supernatural" on mankind's wickedness than on the unlimited power of God. We have more faith in evil being present than in God's redemptive power... and it is quite sad.quote:
Also. apostles and prophets were given Divine revelation equal to Scripture, and which became Scripture. What about your apostles and prophets? Have they brought Scripture to your church and can it be applied to all churches worldwide? Ahem... **cough... cough... 7ChurchesInRevelation... hack... cough**. Those were prophecies written directly to seven individual churches. Not all churches have forgotten their first love, not all tolerate the teachings of Balaam or Jezebel, not all are lukewarm (thank God). Your definition is rapidly falling apart. There are literally hundreds of prophets in the Old Testament that we see mentioned and even prophesying that never gets put into the canon... were they false prophets, were their words not universal, or were they just not worthy of being placed in the Bible?quote:
To line up with the Word, these men must be able to say that their words are literally God's words, and they have brought something which was not formerly revealed. So anything that "lines up with the Word" must necessarily be the words of God... I hope God takes mercy on us all for saying things are His words that are not (cessationism, replacement theology, heresy hunting, etc.).quote:
As a matter of fact, the last book of the Bible closes this option altogether, so where does this leave your apostles and prophets? And what passage are you basing this view of the book of Revelation on? If you are referring to the "if anyone adds to the words of this book..." passage, it is specifically referring to the prophecy of the Book of Revelation. To say that it is referring to all prophecy of all kinds is actually very, VERY poor use of Scripture.quote:
If you will kindly go to Joel 2:27, you will note in context that this prophecy was given to Israel, was partially fulfilled in Israel (Acts 2), and will be finally fulfilled in Israel just before the Day of the Lord: Two problems arise with your doctrine.... (1) All flesh no longer means "all flesh", and that just doesn't sit right with my inner-scholar. (2) If you are correct about limiting this prophecy to Israel, it is not universal and according to your own definition cannot be a legitimate prophecy. That is a serious problem in your logic, imo.quote:
We cannot take what applies to Israel and indiscriminately apply it to the Church. This is what is being done today by many. That is true and off-topic. Next!quote:
Discerning Christians know that there are no apostles and prophets today. Just evangelists, pastors, and teachers. Once again, I must ask........ based on what? Obviously it isn't Ephesians 2:20, because I have already debunked that myth. So either you have to rely on a commentary or you have some other passage you believe puts an axe to Apostles and Prophets.......... or you are merely placing more value on your opinion than on the Bible.
As for my level of discernment, I will let the insult lay... I forgive you.
Adam
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I am hyena, Jesus is my Mufasa...
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RE: five fold ministry! - 4/7/2008 8:20:56 AM
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earthless
Posts: 4748
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where bbq pigeons roast....
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
There has been no spiritual elitism in this discussion. Rather, this would be an emotional strawman with absolutely no bearing on our current conversation. No one questioned anyone's christianity, rather, if you were in a church that believed in the baptism of the Holy Spirit or not. That is a big difference.
Adam, don't put a front. Her words were clear enough for anyone to understand their meaning. Now you're saying that if a church doesn't believe in speaking in tongues as a sign of being filled with the Holy Spirit then they are not "spirit-filled"?
quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
And according to Deuteronomy 13, accuracy is NOT the mark of a prophet. "If there arises among you a prophet or a dreamer of dreams, and he gives you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or the wonder comes to pass, of which he spoke to you, saying, 'Let us go after other gods' -which you have not known-'and let us serve them,' you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams, for the LORD your God is testing you to know whether you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul." Once again, we see taking a few verses at the expense of the rest.
Yes, something that I have been saying for years here on these boards. A true Prophet will not only speak true prophecies (duh) but will also teach sound doctrine. Which we know many of those calling themselves Prophets fail on both accounts.
quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
So you have folded the Office of a Prophet into the Office of a Teacher. There is a switch.
No, not I - the Bible has done so for New Testament believers which include you and I.
quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
**Ding!** +1up, map4! I must always give my nod to a moderative voice...
Adam
Adam, you're not above the fray.
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: five fold ministry! - 4/7/2008 3:22:46 PM
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wintery
Posts: 889
Joined: 2/1/2007
From: nw alabama
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Soxfan
quote:
ORIGINAL: MrsOliver
...From the posts on this thread I am venturing to say, that none of you attend a "spirit filled" church.
Mrs. Oliver
Typical Charismatic elitism! 
Unless people babble in tongues, cluck like chickens, fall all over the floor, or flop around like fish out of water, somehow they are not "spirit-filled".
Even if they are not doing those things, why carry on about a heightened spirituality and exercise of spiritual gifts when it just doesn't pan out? I've been disturbed to see "spiritual" church members and pastors sin as bad or worse than non-"Spirit-filled" churches. This is surely where fruits can help us know something. I can't keep accepting the idea that all of the spiritual superiority is correct, but excuse the fleshly nature for getting in the way. If discernment is weak to non-existent, in-fighting, favoritism, competing for who has the most God-credit, and people's lives are being directed in a poor manner (when people let the leaders do this--baaaa!) then something is more than just wrong. It seems some people are just kidding themselves.
So what is it? The idea of spiritual importance puffs up the flesh. "You know, a prophet said I'd be an apostle...I'm bona fide". 
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RE: five fold ministry! - 4/7/2008 5:21:59 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 794
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
rlj:
What was the penalty under the law for adultery? We could spend a good deal of time making a list of Old Covenant penalties that are no longer the same under the New Covenant. Just ate some yummy pork processed hot dogs cooked outside before I posted this. ; )
Isaiah 66:15 "See, the Lord is coming with fire, and his chariots are like a whirlwind; he will bring down his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of f | | |
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