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RE: five fold ministry! - 3/31/2008 8:16:38 PM
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WildByNature
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rlj
quote:
1. Must have physically seen the resurrected Christ
2. Must have been personally commissioned by the risen Christ.
Matthias wasn't commissioned by Christ and many contended with Paul's authority because he didn't actually see the resurrected Christ.
Matthias was an eyewitness the ministry, death and resurrection of Christ -- there were more than 12 disciples that were eyewitnesses but the 12 were chosen out of them to hold the office of Apostle. (Matt 10:1)
Matthias was called and chosen by Christ to be a disciple and, just like the first 12, he was picked for the office of Apostle through praying to the Lord (Matt 9:38; Acts 1:24-26)
Additionally, regarding Matthias' appointment, in Luke 24:45 Jesus opened the minds of the Apostles that they might understand the scriptures -- prior to the Holy Spirit coming upon them. In Acts 1:16-23 Peter was moved to interpret the situation and quoted Psalm 69:25 and Psalm 109:8. By quoting the scripture as Holy Spirit inspired prophecy, Peter pointed out the logic necessity that another must take Judas' place. The filling of that office met all the requirements for a true Apostle.
Granted there is controversy over Paul's calling himself an Apostle, but he was an eyewitness to the risen Christ, and he was called and chosen by Him on the road to Damascus. Not to mention that he met the other requirements of 1. having infallible inspiration (John 16:13; 1Cor 2:10) -- being able to explain the OT and set forth the NT (Luke 24:27); 2. had been given the power of working miracles (Mark 16:20; Acts 2:43); 3. had the power to settle points of faith and determine all controversies -- just as Jesus is called "the Apostle of our profession" (Heb 3:1).
There should be no doubt that Paul has more of a right to be called a true Apostle than anyone claiming to be an Apostle today.
_____________________________
"Stop being afraid! Just keep on believing." (Mark 5:36 ISV)
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RE: five fold ministry! - 3/31/2008 9:37:50 PM
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Ezra
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
Ezra, my big problem with the majority of your argument is that it is a split hermaneutic. To make this argument even half-way cohesive you have to split apart the verse in which the five-fold ministry (or four fold if you are so inclined) and completely seperate them from each other and their context.
Adam:
As a matter of fact, I am not "splitting apart" Eph. 4:11 but interpreting it in the light of Eph. 2:20. Therefore there is no "split hermeneutic".
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No one would argue that the offices of Pastor, Evangelist and Teacher are still in operation because we all know that people are called to be Pastors (there is one on almost every street corner), Evangelists (Billy Graham... Hello!), and Teachers.
Exactly. And you will notice that they are omitted from Eph. 2:20 for that very reason.
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To say that those three are still in play and the other two are not is to make an argument that is completely undefendable.
Not if we keep a consistent interpretation of the Church as the Building of God. The apostles and prophets were "the foundation", Christ is the Chief Cornerstone, and the Church is built upon this. Now that the edifice has already been a-building for 2,000 years, we do not start laying the foundation all over again! "The faith" (or corpus of Christian truth) was ONCE DELIVERED to the saints (Jude 3) and what we now have to do is hold fast to it. Not look for novelty.
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What makes you believe that they ceased after the NT was closed?
Had they continued after the NT was written, then at least some of the Post-Apostolic Fathers would have identified themselves as apostles and prophets. Since they did not do so, therefore the case is closed.
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The author of Hebrews has also made abundantly clear what counts as "foundational" in Hebrews 6. Then you look at how deficient the American church is in these teachings and principles, and it become abundantly clear that we still need people to lay foundations.
What becomes clear is simply that the churches have failed to take the Word of God seriously enough and to feed the flock both milk and meat. Too many churches are simply feeding pablum, but that does not necessitate apostles and prophets. It requires caring and diligent pastors and teachers (not those who copy the sermons of others, and present little sermonettes, stories, jokes, etc) as well as faithful evangelists.
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At this point, I need to point out that you are picking and choosing what you want to believe in Ephesians, which means you don't believe the entire Bible is accurate. If the Bible is irrelevant to us, why do we bother to read it?
Not once will you find in any of my posts that the Bible is deemed irrelevant, or inaccurate, or that truth is established by "picking and choosing" what to believe and what to omit. On the other had, there is such as thing as "rightly dividing the Word of Truth" with the help of the Holy Spirit. That is what some of us are attempting to do.
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So you are claiming that once the Scripture was completed the saints have been perfected? I know this is not true... because I can't balance my checkbook... I am nowhere NEAR perfected. By using your own arguments, the office of Apostle and Prophet are still in play until the saints have been completed. So until you are willing to claim that we have been, there is no basis to say that they are "unnecessary".
You seem to be misunderstanding what I am saying. The foundational apostles and prophets were absolutely necessary, but they left behind a legacy -- the written Word of God. Therefore it is now up to the evangelists, pastors, and teachers to continue the work of "perfecting the saints" through the ministry of the Word. We do not need another batch of apostles and prophets since we have God's holy Word in our hands, and Chrsit Himself has closed the canon.
BTW there are only 12 apostles, and they will sit on 12 thrones ruling the 12 tribes of Israel, even as their names are embedded in the 12 foundations of the New Jerusalem (Rev. 21:14). Note the connection between the foundations and the foundational apostles.
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5. The Hebrew canon is not "different" from the Christian canon (disregarding the RCC and EOC). It is simply arranged differently. True. Unless you count the Hebrew Tenakh being counted in the canon.
The Hebrew Tanakh is exactly the same as our OT, but the arrangement and division of the books is different (based on the LXX).
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Once again, this is a split hermaneutic. If prophecy has ceased, then the testimony of Jesus has ceased (Rev 19:10)
Not at all. The testimony of Jesus is His written Word, and all Scripture is indeed prophetic in that it was given by divine inspiration as holy men of God were "moved" by the Holy Spirit. The testimony of Jesus is confirmed by the testimony of the Holy Spirit to the truth and perfection of God's written Word.
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7. None of the early post-apostolic "Church Fathers" ever claimed to be either prophets or apostles. That in itself should tell us something. Aside from Origen, who was recognized as an Apostle... but I guess he doesn't count.
That's right. Even the Catholic Church refused to acknowledge Origen since he had some strange notions.
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8. False prophets are to be expected and shunned in the last days.... Just because there are false prophets coming (and already here, and already come) doesn't mean that there are no real prophets. Just like how a counterfeit $100 bill doesn't mean that $100 don't exist. Really, this argument kind of falls apart, because if you can simply pick and choose what you want to believe, Christianity becomes null and void for faith's purpose.
I don't see how you jump from a refusal to accept modern day prophets to "picking and choosing" or making Christianity "null and void". I take it that you do not feel that the complete written Word of God is more than sufficient for doctrine, reproof correction, instruction in righteousness, and the "perfecting of the saints" (2 Tim. 3:16,17).
What, indeed, can modern "prophets" add to what has already been revealed? And if they could, they would have to present their words as "Scripture". Would any of them dare do that?
Joseph Smith did, and look where it ended. Brigham Young did and look where it ended. Ellen G. White did and look where it ended. Modern "prophets" have invariably led people astray.
BEWARE OF FALSE APOSTLES AND PROPHETS.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: five fold ministry! - 4/1/2008 1:16:13 AM
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FurGodWurLivin
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quote:
The two main qualifications for a foundational apostle are:
1. Must have physically seen the resurrected Christ
2. Must have been personally commissioned by the risen Christ.
Find me someone today that meets those two requirements and I will believe that these "offices" (Apostle and Prophet) are still in operation.
As others have stated, the "Five-Fold Ministry" is just another wing of the heretical Latter Rain movement, braought to the forefront in the 80's-90's by C Peter Wagner's heretical NAR. I faced it first hand.
And they can't even get the number right. It would be "FOUR-Fold ministry" Pastor-Teacher are one entity (A) the two requirements you have listed are the requirements to be one of the twleve "Apostles of the Lamb". If you are going to be dogmatic about them, then Paul was not an Apostle. (B) you have completely ignored the legitimate questions I have raised in my previous post. To say that Apostle and Prophet does not exist and that Prophet/Teacher and Evangelist do means you are simply ignoring what you want to ignore in the New Testament. That is a travesty of poor study.
I will respond more when I have more time...
Adam
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RE: five fold ministry! - 4/1/2008 1:46:45 AM
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Ezra
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quote:
(A) the two requirements you have listed are the requirements to be one of the twleve "Apostles of the Lamb". If you are going to be dogmatic about them, then Paul was not an Apostle.
The apostle Paul is most definitely one of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, seeing as how Judas "went to his own place". Paul not only saw the resurrected and glorified Christ on the road to Damascus, but several times after that. Indeed he spent several years in the Arabian desert in solitude with the Lord and was probably taught for about three years just as the other apostles.
As to his being personally commissed by Christ, you can open any and every epistle of Paul and read his testimony in the opening lines, e.g. "PAUL, AN APOSTLE OF JESUS CHRIST BY THE WILL OF GOD" (Eph. 1:1).
The revelations which Paul received far exceed those given to the other apostles, and Paul is perhaps the leading foundational apostle, since the bulk of the NT consists of his writings. And it is Paul who says "I have laid the foundation" and "other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ" (1 Cor. 3:10,11).
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And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: five fold ministry! - 4/1/2008 2:14:37 AM
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Ezra
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
Actually, I think a reading of that verse (Eph. 4:8) speaks to four ministries and not five. By the syntax and puncuation it seems to merge Pastor and teachor into one Ministry.
RC:
I'm sure you meant Eph. 4:11. But Scripture is rarely redundant.
There ar many who believe that pastor and teacher are referring to the same spiritual gift in that verse. However that cannot be since teachers are mentioned very specifically without reference to pastor in 1 Cor. 12:27-31, and come third in order of importance.
Paul says that apostles are first, the prophets are second, and the teachers are third. All other gifts follow, and tongues and their interpretation is last. Therefore the spiritual gift of pastor is indeed distinct from teacher. Not all pastors are teachers, neither are all teachers pastors, and the differences may be discerned readily.
Furthermore in Rom. 12:5-8, Paul speaks of prophecy, ministry (which could be taken as either Christian service or in this context the ministry of the Word), teaching, and exhortation as four distinct spiritual gifts. He also mentions ruling. Therefore pastor and teacher are not automatically interchangeable.
Eph. 4:11 lists five gifts, but to speak of a "five-fold" ministry is false in the light of Rom. 12:5-8 as well as 1 Pet. 4:10,11.
< Message edited by Ezra -- 4/1/2008 2:23:45 AM >
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And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: five fold ministry! - 4/1/2008 10:35:46 AM
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DaveW
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That was why Derek Prince always refered to the Ephesians list as the "Five Main Ministries."
My wife when she was the receptionist at the Tikkun ministries office had to field questions like: "How do you "fold" a ministry 5 ways?"
Oh that people would give up their KJV lingo.....
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RE: five fold ministry! - 4/1/2008 11:00:06 AM
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cybrjewls
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Greetings favorable bluethread! God established the good news of The Kingdom of God coming with Power to heal and save through Jesus Christ and sent His Apostles and Prophets to share God's gift of Gracious salvation. For God had ordained a Covenant with Abraham before He ordained the covenant that He made with Israel at prophecy in the law of Moses. He ordained the Covenant of Salt with the levitical tribe that they might serve before Him as priests. For God was advancing His Kingdom by sending His Precious Son Jesus. As it is written: After the sixty-two 'sevens,' the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary.
We know that Moses retroactively prophesied concerning Abraham in the Tanach. Moses received these prophetic writings after they had transpired. For God is timeless and stands outside of time. He ordains Covenants and He wreaks the curses written as well; eventually; for He is Patient. For The Word of God is Living and Active. God Reigns Supreme is His Kingdom and Works many wonders on earth with peoples across the ages. These are written so that we may believe in His Only Son, The Messiah, Yeshua. The Prince of The Covenant of God. Prince of Peace, Almighty God, God with us: Immanuel.
We see, here, that the time of the coming of The Messiah was prophesied about by an angel and given to Daniel to write down for us so that we would be able to discern that The Messiah had come.
As to the saying: "Do not go beyond what is written." Then you will not take pride in one man over against another. We see, here, that the Apostle of God admonishes that it is Sound Instruction to test everything by Scripture. For it is written: What advantage, then, is there in being a Jew, or what value is there in circumcision? Much in every way!
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:
ORIGINAL: prophetica
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
The canon of Scripture is not necessarily closed, If someone comes up with something that does not violate prior Scriptue and meets the Scriptural standards for revelation, it could very well be Scripture.
What!? Cannon is set. The Apostle admonishes: then you will learn the meaning of 'do not go beyond what is written.'
I.m not sure what you are quoting, but if it is in the Apistolic Scriptures(new testiment), it would be refering to the Tanach since the Apistolic writing where not complete when they where being written. Therefore, by your interpretation, the canon would have been closed before Yeshua(Jesus) was born.
< Message edited by .p.rophetic -- 4/2/2008 1:28:39 AM >
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RE: five fold ministry! - 4/1/2008 5:33:27 PM
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FurGodWurLivin
Posts: 952
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quote:
As a matter of fact, I am not "splitting apart" Eph. 4:11 but interpreting it in the light of Eph. 2:20. Therefore there is no "split hermeneutic". Actually, it is. Both Ephesians 2:20 and 4:11 are written in the past tense. So to use your apparent reasoning, Paul was no longer an Apostle because he speaks about the church "having been built on the foundation". The only possible explanation that (A) allows the apostolic to remain in function after then penning of this verse and (B) remains consistent throughout the book is that the Apostles were for more than just laying a foundation. Especially when you consider that Christ is mentioned in the same way... and quite obviously we still need Christ. So put the two verses together in context... "Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, in whom the whole building, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit...And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;" So what is Paul ACTUALLY saying? Until we all come to unity and perfection in our faith, God has given the five/four fold ministry for the building up of the saints. Unless you are willing to make a statement that the church has been come to unity of faith (15,000+ denominations?!) we still need apostles and prophets.quote:
Exactly. And you will notice that they are omitted from Eph. 2:20 for that very reason. Not according to Paul... Lets look at the use of the Prophets and the Apostles. When Jesus rose from the dead, there were 512 people that knew that He was alive. We know that 12 are apostles, and they needed to get the word out. They laid the foundation in that they were the first to proclaim the risen Christ. Basically, your interpretation of Ephesians 2:20 is coming from the mindset of a 21st century Christian, and not the period into which it was written.quote:
Not if we keep a consistent interpretation of the Church as the Building of God. The apostles and prophets were "the foundation", Christ is the Chief Cornerstone, and the Church is built upon this. Now that the edifice has already been a-building for 2,000 years, we do not start laying the foundation all over again! "The faith" (or corpus of Christian truth) was ONCE DELIVERED to the saints (Jude 3) and what we now have to do is hold fast to it. Not look for novelty. Except that that is not the qualification that Paul gave for these ministeries in Ephesians 4. The qualification that Paul gives is that they have given for the edification of the church "until" we come to the unity of faith... which we obviously have not. I'm not saying look for novelty. I'm saying look for spiritual authority. What I'm seeing in this argument is proof-texting a proof-text. I believe Tozer said it this way... "We are very adept at lashing together verses to make floatable doctrines, at the expense of the meaning of those verses".quote:
What becomes clear is simply that the churches have failed to take the Word of God seriously enough and to feed the flock both milk and meat. Too many churches are simply feeding pablum, but that does not necessitate apostles and prophets. It requires caring and diligent pastors and teachers (not those who copy the sermons of others, and present little sermonettes, stories, jokes, etc) as well as faithful evangelists. You know, I thought that reading the Bible and believe what it says meant you were taking the Bible seriously. Ephesians 4 says that God has given some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some pastors, some teachers, and some to be evangelists until we come to unity of faith and the knowledge of the Son. And I wholeheartedly believe that.quote:
Not once will you find in any of my posts that the Bible is deemed irrelevant, or inaccurate, or that truth is established by "picking and choosing" what to believe and what to omit. On the other had, there is such as thing as "rightly dividing the Word of Truth" with the help of the Holy Spirit. That is what some of us are attempting to do. I'm not sure what you are trying to say...... but you just spent a very long post telling me why Ephesians 4:11 doesn't actually mean what Ephesians 4:11 says... and then you expect me to believe that you don't think parts of the Bible are irrelevant?quote:
You seem to be misunderstanding what I am saying. The foundational apostles and prophets were absolutely necessary, but they left behind a legacy -- the written Word of God. Therefore it is now up to the evangelists, pastors, and teachers to continue the work of "perfecting the saints" through the ministry of the Word. Except that that contradicts Ephesians 4:11. I agree that the foundational Apostles were absolutely necessary... because without them no one would know that Christ is alive. However, nowhere does the Bible tell us that the Apostolic and Prophetic have ceased to be. Ephesians 4 flat out says that the Apostles and Prophets have been given for the perfecting of the saints just as much as the pastor, teacher, and evangelist.quote:
We do not need another batch of apostles and prophets since we have God's holy Word in our hands, and Chrsit Himself has closed the canon.
BTW there are only 12 apostles, and they will sit on 12 thrones ruling the 12 tribes of Israel, even as their names are embedded in the 12 foundations of the New Jerusalem (Rev. 21:14). Note the connection between the foundations and the foundational apostles. I never said the canon wasn't closed. Since you desire to go there, I am curious how we all know the canon is closed? Different topic, I know...
So if there are only twelve apostles, who gets the shaft of not getting a throne? Matthias or Paul? To throw another wrench at this straw man, when Jesus made this statement of the twelve apostles sitting on twelve thrones, Judas was still alive and with them. So now we are up to fourteen. So did Jesus lie? Was he referring to Matthias (who was selected by the 11 to join them)? Or was He looking past all of them to Paul? None of those answers are very appealing, and that is why I reject this as a valid argument. Once again, I am not questioning the foundational apostles... what I am questioning is how you "know" that the Apostolic and Prophetic are no longer in operation.quote:
Not at all. The testimony of Jesus is His written Word, and all Scripture is indeed prophetic in that it was given by divine inspiration as holy men of God were "moved" by the Holy Spirit. The testimony of Jesus is confirmed by the testimony of the Holy Spirit to the truth and perfection of God's written Word. So there is no active testimony of Jesus in your life? It must be sad knowing that you are still in your sins... But I digress. The testimony of Jesus is the written word, but it is also the fruit of his life, death, and resurrection in the everyday lives of Christians. Healings are a testimony of Jesus and are prophetic of the coming kingdom where there will be no more sickness or death. It's really that simple. Anything that is only in existence because of Jesus (ie, your salvation) is the testimony of Jesus. So obviously the spirit of prophecy is still active in the life of every Christian... not just because you are saved, but because you also have Holy Spirit living on the inside of you.quote:
I take it that you do not feel that the complete written Word of God is more than sufficient for doctrine, reproof correction, instruction in righteousness, and the "perfecting of the saints" (2 Tim. 3:16,17) I never said that. That is you making an assumption about what I believe. I never questioned the authority of scripture or the veracity thereof. All I am saying is that the Prophetic and the Apostolic have not ceased to function. There is a marked difference between those two statements.quote:
What, indeed, can modern "prophets" add to what has already been revealed? To redemptive scripture? Nothing. As far as what God is planning to do on the earth between our salvation and the eschaton? Very much. The Bible is very general about the day-to-day life of God's people, but it is explicit about the methods of salvation and the coming of Christ.quote:
Joseph Smith did, and look where it ended. Brigham Young did and look where it ended. Ellen G. White did and look where it ended. Modern "prophets" have invariably led people astray. Invariably? Not. How do you account for those who listened to Bob Jones or Paul Cain that are still following God? A. A. Allen, Smith Wigglesworth, Heidi Baker... all of these operated in the prophetic and apostolic, and started some of the largest revivals in modern history. I believe Jonathan Edwards and D. L. Moody were apostles... and look at the fruit of their work.quote:
BEWARE OF FALSE APOSTLES AND PROPHETS. The one thing I can agree with...........
Adam
_____________________________
I am hyena, Jesus is my Mufasa...
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RE: five fold ministry! - 4/1/2008 6:20:08 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 1534
Joined: 11/8/2007
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quote:
Prophetica:
As to the saying: "Do not go beyond what is written." Then you will not take pride in one man over against another. We see, here, that the Apostle of God admonishes that it is Sound Instruction to test everything by Scripture. For it is written: What advantage, then, is there in being a Jew, or what value is there in circumcision? Much in every way!
I don't know why you can't give attribution as in (1 Cor 4:6) when quoting "Do not go beyond what is written." Links are very clever and make it easier for some to see your sources when thery work. But, in my opinion, they do not replace attribution and weaving these links into one's arguments seems a bit presumptious to me.
The 1 Cor. 4:6 passage is refering to disagreements regarding doctrine, like those Paul had with Apollos. I believe, it abmonishes us to build our arguments on what has come before and do not raise ones view to the level of Scripture without accepting the risk of stoning should one be incorrect. As I stated before, to believe that he is refering to the closing of the canon of Scripture is to excluse himself since He had not finished the epistles at that time.
Your "retroactively prophesied" idea seems to me to be nonsense. It is indeed probable that the information chronicled by Moshe regarding the patriarchs was well known among the children of Israel as it is among many other cultures to this day. The differnce is that Adonai clarified to Moshe what actually took place.
It appears that you are refering to Paul as the "Apostle of God". I believe he would be embarrassed by this as he was when He was forced to list his credentials. He is no doubt an Apostle of Adonai. If this is not what you mean, then what does the "Apostle of God" mean and please speak clearly.
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: five fold ministry! - 4/1/2008 6:23:19 PM
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LBolt
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Wouldn't missionaries fall under modern day apostles?
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RE: five fold ministry! - 4/1/2008 6:42:48 PM
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AllForIsrael
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quote:
Your "retroactively prophesied" idea seems to me to be nonsense. It is indeed probable that the information chronicled by Moshe regarding the patriarchs was well known among the children of Israel as it is among many other cultures to this day. The differnce is that Adonai clarified to Moshe what actually took place.
Shalom....you cannot get any plainer than that.........
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RE: five fold ministry! - 4/2/2008 8:19:30 AM
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DaveW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
Wouldn't missionaries fall under modern day apostles? That is one aspect of an aposotlic ministry. Missionary work however usually does not include the trans-local authority over several congregations that is also part of apostolic ministry.
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Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
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RE: five fold ministry! - 4/2/2008 10:03:16 AM
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Soxfan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
(A) the two requirements you have listed are the requirements to be one of the twleve "Apostles of the Lamb". If you are going to be dogmatic about them, then Paul was not an Apostle. Adam
1Cor 9:1 - "Am I not free? Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord? Are you not the result of my work in the Lord?
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"This would be the first step in apostasy; men first forget the true, and then adore the false.".......C.H. Spurgeon
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RE: five fold ministry! - 4/2/2008 10:06:26 AM
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Soxfan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
Wouldn't missionaries fall under modern day apostles?
Apostolic gifting yes. Holding the office of "Foundational" Apostle...NO
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"This would be the first step in apostasy; men first forget the true, and then adore the false.".......C.H. Spurgeon
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RE: five fold ministry! - 4/2/2008 10:09:48 AM
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Soxfan
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Great article that refutes the false theology of the need for Apostles and Prophets today:
..."7It has recently become popular to speak of "the five-fold ministry," a system of church government with apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers. The neo-Pentecostal "Restoration" movement and its offshoot, "kingdom now" teaching, claims that one of the things which God is "restoring" to the church is this five-fold ministry. The sole prooftext used to support this concept is Ephesians 4:11-13 , which states that Christ gave "some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers,...until we all attain to the unity of the faith and the full knowledge of the Son of God." The word "until," it is argued, proves that the church today needs apostles and prophets as much as evangelists, pastors, and teachers. However, it is the "building up" of the church (v.12) which must continue until the church is mature, not all five of the offices listed in verse 11. This is clear when the whole text is read as follows: "And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers; [these offices were given] to equip the saints for the work of service, [which work has as its goal] to build up the body of Christ until we all attain to the unity of the faith..." The offices of apostle and prophet would naturally cease in the church once their role in "equipping the saints" was completed; that is, once the New Testament canon was completed.
Some have objected that there is no reason to bracket off the apostles and prophets from the other three offices listed in verse 11. However, in the very same epistle, Paul states that the church has "been built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets" (Eph. 2:20 ) and that Christ's mystery concerning the church was "revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit" (3:5 ). These statements indicate that the role of apostles and prophets was fulfilled in the first century.
The New Testament is particularly clear about the temporary role of the apostles, since they were chosen to give eyewitness testimony of the risen Christ (Acts 1:21-26 ; 5:32 ; Luke 1:1-4 ; 1 Cor. 9:1 ). Paul indicated that he was the last person to see the risen Christ and receive an apostolic commission (1 Cor. 15:8 ). The epistles of 2 Peter and Jude, among the very last New Testament writings to be penned, exhort the readers to avoid false doctrines by recalling the teachings of the apostles (2 Pet. 1:12-15 ; 2:1 ; 3:2 , 14-16 ; Jude 3-4 , 17 ). Peter and Jude did not say, "Listen to the apostles living today," but instead urged believers to "remember what the apostles said."
..."Therefore, in the usual biblical sense of the term, there are no apostles today. Nor are there any prophets in the usual sense, as they were part of the "foundation" laid in the first-century church. This is not to deny the continuing validity of the gift of "prophecy," since Paul does refer to prophesying as a basic activity in which all Christians are urged to participate to the extent God gifts them (Rom. 12:6 ; 1 Cor. 11:4-5 ; 12:10 ; 13:2 , 8-9 ; 14:1-6 , 20-33 ; 1 Thess. 5:20 ), and in a general functional sense persons exercising this gift are even called "prophets" (1 Cor. 14:32 , 37 ). Yet Paul also speaks of specific persons who occupied an office of "prophet" which was second in authority only to apostle (1 Cor. 12:28-29 ). It is this office of "prophet," not all prophecy, which I am arguing passed away around the end of the first century.
..."Finally, some errors on this matter are worse than others. The loose use of the world "apostle" to refer to missionaries or church planters is not a serious error as long as this usage is sharply distinguished from the concept of an apostle who brings new doctrinal revelations and wields unquestionable authority. Nor is it a grievous error to interpret Ephesians 4:11 to refer to "apostles" in this sense of a church planter. The same would apply to those who hold that Ephesians 4:11 refers to the ongoing charismatic activity of prophesying. I do believe these interpretations are mistaken, but they are not in any way antagonistic to Christian faith.
..."On the other hand, to interpret Ephesians 4:11 as a call for a restoration of the office of apostle of Christ is not only a mistake in exegesis, it opens the door to heresy. To claim that the church today needs visions and revelations through modern apostles and prophets of Christ is to deny the sufficiency of the Bible (2 Tim. 3:16 ) and to place the church at the mercy of false apostles, the likes of whom the apostle Paul warned us about in no uncertain terms (2 Cor. 11:13-15 ).
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"This would be the first step in apostasy; men first forget the true, and then adore the false.".......C.H. Spurgeon
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RE: five fold ministry! - 4/2/2008 7:59:35 PM
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Bluethread
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This all is stated with the presumption that an overarching authoriarian structure called "The Church" was intended by Adonai. If one looks at these verses as a listing of Adonai working through individuals that are subject to examination by other individual believers who interact with each other in a loose affiliation as we are doing here, these arguments fall like a house of cards. I would submit, when the priesthood moved from an enabling institution to a governing body and the Temple from a place for seeking Adonai's direction to a place to pass judgement in His name, the glory of Adonai departed as Hosea tells us. Unfortunately I fear the same has happened among the people of our time.
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: five fold ministry! - 4/2/2008 8:18:30 PM
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rlj
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There are so many threads now about Prophets, Apostles, etc. I totally forgot I came over to this one and posted. :P
quote:
There should be no doubt that Paul has more of a right to be called a true Apostle than anyone claiming to be an Apostle today.
No doubt at all. On the question of Matthias the only people I am aware of Jesus picking were the 12 and then the sending out the 72 in Luke 10. Matthias isn't mentioned by name.
On Paul I don't doubt his Apostolic authority though it was something I believe he had to deal with throughout his ministry because he didn't actually witness the risen Christ only the vision.
quote:
1Cor 9:1 - "Am I not free? Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord? Are you not the result of my work in the Lord?
This is a verse that goes along with what I mean by Paul having to deal throughout his ministry with those who (at the time) doubted his being an apostle.
That's all for now, time to take a break from this. All these threads are running together and squishing my brain.
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RE: five fold ministry! - 4/3/2008 6:40:42 AM
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FurGodWurLivin
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quote:
1Cor 9:1 - "Am I not free? Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord? Are you not the result of my work in the Lord? Soxfan, you miss the point of my questioning. People banter about the "definition of an apostle" and don't realize that by using their definition they then have to exclude Paul from being one... otherwise their belief is contradictory and hence false. That is my point of saying what I did. I fully believe Paul was an Apostle because (A) he claimed he was and (B) he showed the fruit of being one.quote:
Apostolic gifting yes. Holding the office of "Foundational" Apostle...NO Now that you have made the qualifier of "Foundational Apostle" we can make an agreement. No Apostle today will be on the same plane as Paul, Peter, James, John or any of the others that are in the Bible. Namely because the canon is closed (though no one has said why yet, and I'm waiting for that answer). So now we can discuss the merits of Apostles in general.quote:
Great article that refutes the false theology of the need for Apostles and Prophets today: Is this intended to convince me of something? I hope not because he uses the same reasoning I have already shot down earlier in this thread, and a lot of the same verses. So really this doesn't carry much weight to it either.quote:
This all is stated with the presumption that an overarching authoriarian structure called "The Church" was intended by Adonai. If one looks at these verses as a listing of Adonai working through individuals that are subject to examination by other individual believers who interact with each other in a loose affiliation as we are doing here, these arguments fall like a house of cards. I would submit, when the priesthood moved from an enabling institution to a governing body and the Temple from a place for seeking Adonai's direction to a place to pass judgement in His name, the glory of Adonai departed as Hosea tells us. Unfortunately I fear the same has happened among the people of our time. Agreed.......... amazingly. I find it highly telling that the amazing stories of healing and provision are coming out of the places in the world that either have (A) brutal persecution (B) a lack of "church structure" or (C) both.
Adam
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I am hyena, Jesus is my Mufasa...
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RE: five fold ministry! - 4/3/2008 6:42:30 AM
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DaveW
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So what do you do with Barnabas being called an apostle?
Act 14:14 But when the Apostles Barnabas and Paul heard of it, they tore their robes and rushed out into the crowd, crying out
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RE: five fold ministry! - 4/3/2008 2:21:10 PM
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Soxfan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
So what do you do with Barnabas being called an apostle?
Act 14:14 But when the Apostles Barnabas and Paul heard of it, they tore their robes and rushed out into the crowd, crying out
From the article I posted above:
"...I am not arguing that only the Twelve and Paul were apostles. Barnabas (Acts 14:14 ), Silas (1 Thess. 2:6 ; cf. 1:1 ), and Andronicus and Junia (Rom. 16:7 ) all were apostles of Christ, and thus were no doubt among the more than 500 witnesses to the Resurrection (1 Cor. 15:6 ). However, none of these persons was chosen as a successor to an earlier apostle (Matthias was Judas's replacement, not his successor, since Judas had forsaken his apostleship, Acts 1:21-26).
"...There are other senses in which the word "apostle" is used in the New Testament. Certain individuals, including Epaphroditus, were "apostles of the churches" (2 Cor. 8:23 ; Phil. 2:25 ). These "apostles" had no authority over the church; they were messengers sent by and subject to their churches. In this latter sense it would be perfectly legitimate to speak of church representatives as "apostles," were it not for the confusion which might result from such usage. "
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"This would be the first step in apostasy; men first forget the true, and then adore the false.".......C.H. Spurgeon
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RE: five fold ministry! - 4/3/2008 2:32:03 PM
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Bluethread
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Here again we go beyond the Scriptures and impart a connotation on a term that is not justified by Scripture. As we have discussed with the terms angel and church, there is not special significance to the term apostle that is not in the context of the specific passage being examined. If I am not mistaken it merely refers to someone with the gift of organizing biblical communities as clarified by Yeshua.
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: five fold ministry! - 4/3/2008 3:07:50 PM
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DaveW
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quote:
Barnabas (Acts 14:14 ), Silas (1 Thess. 2:6 ; cf. 1:1 ), and Andronicus and Junia (Rom. 16:7 ) all were apostles of Christ, and thus were no doubt among the more than 500 witnesses to the Resurrection (1 Cor. 15:6 ) Please prove that huge assumption.
Scripture, not logic.
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