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RE: five fold ministry! - 3/21/2008 2:30:12 PM
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WildByNature
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bassmandrex
quote:
An Apostle, as defined in scripture, can NOT exist today
Could you please give the scriptual reference to that.
History shows that the Jews called those who were chosen to carry messages from their rulers, apostles. Traditionally, there were few who were given this honor.
Scripture shows that an Apostle was one whom Jesus entrusted the organization/foundation of His church -- to carry the message of His Gospel. In accordance with Jewish tradition, Jesus ordained 12 originally. (Mark 3; Matt 10; Luke 6)
It is apparent that it was essential to those few chosen for this high office that:
1. they had to have seen the Lord, and been an eye and ear witness in what they testified to the world (John 15:27; Acts 1:21) -- the resurrected Christ
2. they had to have been called and chosen by the Lord Himself (Acts 1:24)
3. they had to have infallible inspiration (John 16:13; 1Cor 2:10) because they had to explain the OT and set forth the NT (Luke 24:27)
4. they had to have been given the power of working miracles (Mark 16:20; Acts 2:43)
5. they had the power to settle points of faith and determine all controversies -- just as Jesus is called "the Apostle of our profession" (Heb 3:1)
None of your named, so-called "apostles" can meet this criteria. In fact, no one today can say they are an eyewitness to the resurrected Christ or His ministry; no one can prove undoubtedly that the Lord Himself chose them; none has the infallible inspiration to set forth the NT (it has already been set forth with infallible inspriation in the written word of God); some may work miracles, but we know satan can also work miracles -- so if all other criteria are not met, such miracles are not of an Apostle of God; and, no one today has the power (not even the Pope) to claim they have the power to determine what is absolute truth and what is not -- which is why we have the scriptures to read for ourselves.
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What about Paul he ended up in prison but he still was an apostle?
Paul claimed to have the equal authority of an Apostle because he witnessed a vision of the resurrected Christ; was appointed on the road to Damascus by Christ Himself circa AD35; undeniably wrote by divine inspiration of the Holy Spirit -- two thirds of the NT is attributed to him; had the power to work miracles; and, had the power to settle points of faith. He met all the criteria of an Apostle.
More than any other person but Jesus, Paul is responsible for starting Christianity. Don't forget, it was Luke who documented the conversion of Paul in the book of Acts -- not Paul.
Your Peter Xu and Brother Yun were arrested NOT for preaching the Gospel of Christ, but for trying to promote a NEW form of Christianity -- where other Christians must conform to their understood truths.
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There are many foundations to a lot of things, take fore instance and small business.
How can you compare Christianity to a "small business"? There is only ONE foundation upon which the body of Christ must be built -- the Gospel of Christ.
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it starts out small of course, but as time goes on it can begin to expand if allowed and become huge like Microsoft,
The body can be built up on the foundation, but the foundation cannot expand.
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and who ever started it needs to pass on the keys to who is next in line to continue growth and this just continually goes on and on.
Apostolic succession is not biblical. Nowhere does the Bible indicate that Apostleship was passed on -- only that Apostles were added, or in Judas' case -- replaced. Again, the body gets built up on the foundation -- the foundation does not continue being built out. That is a picture of adding to God's word -- which is warned against in scripture.
From the article I linked to previously:
The New Testament is particularly clear about the temporary role of the apostles, since they were chosen to give eyewitness testimony of the risen Christ (Acts 1:21-26 ; 5:32 ; Luke 1:1-4 ; 1 Cor. 9:1).
Paul indicated that he was the last person to see the risen Christ and receive an apostolic commission (1 Cor. 15:8)
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just like with, i will use what you have, prophets and apostles they were the foundation but they had to of passed the mantle to someone else to continue spreading the Word of God. so There had to be another apostle or prophet to step in because the other was soon going to pass on.
The foundation has been laid. We have the word of God. We are now led by the Holy Spirit -- not men.
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that brings us to today There would have to be apostles and prophets otherwise, in Eph 4, wouldn't be fulfilled and then there would be a flaw in the Bible!
Apostles and prophets laid the foundation. Their job is done.
From the link:
The epistles of 2 Peter and Jude, among the very last New Testament writings to be penned, exhort the readers to avoid false doctrines by recalling the teachings of the apostles (2 Pet. 1:12-15 ; 2:1 ; 3:2 , 14-16 ; Jude 3-4 , 17 ). Peter and Jude did not say, "Listen to the apostles living today," but instead urged believers to "remember what the apostles said."
To interpret Ephesians 4:11 as a call for a restoration of the office of apostle of Christ is not only a mistake in exegesis, it opens the door to heresy. To claim that the church today needs visions and revelations through modern apostles and prophets of Christ is to deny the sufficiency of the Bible (2 Tim. 3:16 ) and to place the church at the mercy of false apostles, the likes of whom the apostle Paul warned us about in no uncertain terms (2 Cor. 11:13-15 ).
The teachers of the "five-fold ministry," in seeking to "restore" a foundation which has never been moved, are actually laying a false foundation which will not support the building up of the body of Christ.
_____________________________
"Stop being afraid! Just keep on believing." (Mark 5:36 ISV)
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RE: five fold ministry! - 3/21/2008 3:16:22 PM
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rcjames
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Actually, I think a reading of that verse (Eph. 4:8) speaks to four ministries and not five. By the syntax and puncuation it seems to merge Pastor and teachor into one Ministry.
Thanks
RC
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Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
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RE: five fold ministry! - 3/21/2008 3:40:12 PM
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Bluethread
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I derive this from the fact that the epistles of Paul are considered part of the canon. What is different now?
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RE: five fold ministry! - 3/21/2008 4:10:34 PM
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Bluethread
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I am not going to go through the litany of information presented in post##26, because I think it best in a forum to keep things brief. That said, I am not personally arguing for a "need" for any of these gifts, but, according to the criteria set up in post#26 and Paul's example, it is possible for thereto be another with the gift of apostleship. 1 Cor. 15:8 could be saying I was the last of all the present apostles. I say this because I do not want to limit Adonai.
A good example of limiting Adonai is the rejection of the prophets including Yeshua(Jesus). Very few of the prophets were accepted in there own day. Also, though there have been schools of prophets, I am not sure that those who claim the gift of prophecy should be elevated to a position of authority. That does not apear to me to be the biblical model. I studying the Haftorah(Histories, Psalms, Prophets), I true prophet as being called by Adonai with not ordination or certification by man. The tests of a prophet apear to be: 1) Are his teachings in line with prior revelation and 2) Does what he say come to pass. The requirement of miracles is rabbinic, not Torah. I do not see where these test preclude the a modern day prophet.
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: five fold ministry! - 3/21/2008 5:10:53 PM
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Yoelnatan780
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
Scripture clearing forewarns us that Satan and the demonic realm can and will and do mask themselves as beings of light, with signs and wonders that will fool even the elect.
now your speaking some REAL truth
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elôi elôi lama sabachthani o estin methermçneuomenon o theos mou o theos mou eis ti enkatelipes me
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RE: five fold ministry! - 3/21/2008 11:04:48 PM
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rlj
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quote:
Of course God uses people today to preach His Word to do His work. But that does not mean we are still building the foundation. That does not mean we are still in need of the OFFICE of Prophet and Apostle today because of some lack of the foundation or of the Word.
I tried to respond to this hours ago but it didn't go through. :/ Let me be brief at this time- is the only biblical purpose of the Apostle and Prophet to simply "lay the foundation" of the church?
quote:
The canon of Scripture is not necessarily closed, If someone comes up with something that does not violate prior Scriptue and meets the Scriptural standards for revelation, it could very well be Scripture.
I believe the Canon is closed.
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As I keep seeing these references to building another foundation on the foundation already built, I can imagine a huge building with some walls up and construction going on, and in a corner a small group toils to make a secondary foundation, and yet others attempt to build their walls on this foundation. They would end up with a ...freaky-looking mess!
There is only one cornerstone, can't have multiple foundations without multiple cornerstones. Am I on to something with that? I don't believe there is a problem with the cornerstone or with the foundation.
So my next question is in the New Testament are the prophets that are mentioned the same as their OT counterparts? I would think that the "foundational message" of the Prophets would have been in the OT since there are many times in the NT when an OT prophecy is mentioned most notable being Isaiah.
< Message edited by rlj -- 3/22/2008 2:05:57 AM >
_____________________________
-Roger
1 Thess 5:20 do not treat prophecies with contempt. 21 Test everything. Hold on to the good. (NIV)
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RE: five fold ministry! - 3/22/2008 6:04:28 AM
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FurGodWurLivin
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Earthless, with all possible courtesy, I will decline your challenge to "name" someone. Basically because I know how the game is played. I give you a name, then you set off across the internet in search of information to provide me with an "unbiased" account of how this person is a false prophet. Then we go round and round about how I'm an unthinking dolt that will fall for anything and you are closed to revelatory gifts of the Spirit. So lets just avoid the merry-go-round, eh?
quote:
Scripture clearing forewarns us that Satan and the demonic realm can and will and do mask themselves as beings of light, with signs and wonders that will fool even the elect. Case in point...... Next!
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Bonke travels with Benny Hinn -- 'nuff said Bonke is also one of the most listened to and respected evangelists touring the world right now. Bonke also has miracles happening in his evangelism gatherings. Nuff said, indeed.quote:
the Bakers preach and follow the teachings of William Branham who helped to popularize the heretical Latter Rain movement after World War II The Bakers are also overseeing the single largest revival in Africa... evidenced by the power of the Spirit including the dead being raised, the mortally wounded being healed, supernatural provision of food, and mass salvations.quote:
and, Peter Xu and Brother Yun who are credited with starting the Unity Movement in China and believe they are called to hasten Christ's coming by uniting the doctrinal beliefs of Chinese Christians in order to bring the Gospel to Jerusalem -- no wonder they keep ending up in jail. **sarcasm** Oh my! You mean they actually want to bring the church together in unity and get the Jews saved?!?! Oh the humanity! **/sarcasm** If getting thrown in jail disqualifies you, you are not ready for the End-times.
Lets take a look at the Apostles of the Bible... they started massive revivals in their respective cities, they demonstrated miracles signs and wonders, and they were severely persecuted. Check, check, and check. Paul... jailed by the Romans on two seperate occasions, stoned by the Ephesians, eventually martyred by Caeser. Peter... imprisoned by the Romans at least twice that we know of, crucified upside-down for the cause of Christ. John... exiled by Caligula to the Isle of Patmos after being flayed alive in oil, eventually died at a ripe old age after recieving the book of Revelation. Beling an Apostle brings great hardship for your faith.quote:
Hebrews 6:1-3 encourages us to move on from the foundation. Although Jesus Christ is most definitely active in the church today, His role as the cornerstone of the church was completed with His death, burial, resurrection, and ascension. Shall we next discuss what it is that Hebrews 6 declares as foundational? Things like the raising of the dead, the laying on of hands, the healing of the sick... based on how popular cessationism is, yes... we are still attempting to find a foundation we like.quote:
Your Peter Xu and Brother Yun were arrested NOT for preaching the Gospel of Christ, but for trying to promote a NEW form of Christianity -- where other Christians must conform to their understood truths. Actually not. If you do your research, they were arrested for preaching a form of christianity that differed from China's state-backed church (otherwise known as the "three-self churches"). Did you know that you cannot by a Bible in China that has the book of Revelation in it? That's because the communist Government banned it. Think about your argument... does it really make sense that a Maoist government would seriously arrest someone for preaching a "domineering" form of Christianity?
I will probably need to exit this thread before it gets ugly... just giving an advanced warning.
Adam
_____________________________
I am hyena, Jesus is my Mufasa...
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RE: five fold ministry! - 3/22/2008 8:03:13 AM
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AllForIsrael
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quote:
So my next question is in the New Testament are the prophets that are mentioned the same as their OT counterparts? I would think that the "foundational message" of the Prophets would have been in the OT since there are many times in the NT when an OT prophecy is mentioned most notable being Isaiah.
In the NT they are spoke of as Apostles versus Prophets. No they are not the same as their OT counterparts. A lot of reference is made by the Apostles to their OT counterparts. But you have to consider the time frame between the OT and NT.
quote:
I believe the Canon is closed.
Why do you believe the Canon is closed? There are differences between the Christian and Jewish Canons thats why I am asking...
< Message edited by AllForIsrael -- 3/22/2008 8:14:49 AM >
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RE: five fold ministry! - 3/22/2008 10:49:26 AM
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rlj
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quote:
Why do you believe the Canon is closed? There are differences between the Christian and Jewish Canons thats why I am asking...
The Christian bible is closed. Am I accurate in saying that is the all inclusive Canon of Scripture? When I hear corporate or individual prophecy especially over myself I never equate it as being equal to scripture even when by its testing it is clearly from God. I have never heard of the "Apostle vs. Prophet" debate because that I think would be an example of a house being divided against itself. They are two giftings, two callings that are most importantly being used together to prepare the church for the coming of the Lord.
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-Roger
1 Thess 5:20 do not treat prophecies with contempt. 21 Test everything. Hold on to the good. (NIV)
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RE: five fold ministry! - 3/22/2008 4:27:17 PM
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AllForIsrael
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quote:
"Apostle vs. Prophet"
Theres no Apostle vs Prophet debate. I guess over time they went from being called prophets to apostles in the NT.
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RE: five fold ministry! - 3/22/2008 5:46:13 PM
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rlj
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quote:
Theres no Apostle vs Prophet debate. I guess over time they went from being called prophets to apostles in the NT.
In Acts 11 there is this mentioned:
quote:
27 And in these days came prophets from Jerusalem unto Antioch.
28 And there stood up one of them named Agabus, and signified by the Spirit that there should be great dearth throughout all the world: which came to pass in the days of Claudius Caesar.
In this instance (and I believe there are others in the NT) the prophet seems different to me then the apostle.
_____________________________
-Roger
1 Thess 5:20 do not treat prophecies with contempt. 21 Test everything. Hold on to the good. (NIV)
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RE: five fold ministry! - 3/22/2008 5:50:02 PM
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earthless
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From: where bbq pigeons roast....
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Some people will follow anyone with a cheap suit who says Christian sounding words....
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: five fold ministry! - 3/22/2008 6:25:35 PM
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AllForIsrael
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
Some people will follow anyone with a cheap suit who says Christian sounding words....
Yeah we have plenty of those out there today.
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http://forensictheology.smfnew.com
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RE: five fold ministry! - 3/22/2008 6:38:14 PM
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rlj
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quote:
Actually, I think a reading of that verse (Eph. 4:8) speaks to four ministries and not five. By the syntax and puncuation it seems to merge Pastor and teachor into one Ministry.
I've heard the same thing myself RC.
As for Bonnke I'm glad I looked him up. It usually takes me about 5 minutes to read thorugh the writings of a Hinn or a Copeland and realize I'm dealing with someone between a fruit loop of the faith and a prosperity pimp. I liked what I read off of Bonnke's web sight.
_____________________________
-Roger
1 Thess 5:20 do not treat prophecies with contempt. 21 Test everything. Hold on to the good. (NIV)
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RE: five fold ministry! - 3/31/2008 12:08:45 AM
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Digrieze
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rlj
If your definition of Apostle is the one mentioned in Acts 1:20-22 then Paul is erroneously called an apostle.
Actually that is an assumption from tradition. Christian tradision was that Saul/Paul was raised away from judea and was not present during the actual ministry of Jesus. However, this is suspicious for two reasons. First, he appears on the scene almost immediately following the birth of the church. Second, he is very familiar with both the local members and leaders of the Jerusalem comgregation of the church, and, from the reaction of people to his conversion, the christians knew him well also. Finally, the same ones who set the standard for picking Mattathias were the ones who sent Paul out as an apostle.
The old reason given that he does not appear in the gospels also applies to Mattathias, and simply ignores the fact that we know there were many more followers of Jesus than we know of by name (as witnessed by the numbers he appeared to following the resurrection).
We need to be careful of what we state as sure due to tradition and be sure we're not trying to infer something from silence of the scripture. It's not good to think we know more than we do (although the church as a whole has made that a constant habit, much to its' detriment).
_____________________________
My hope, my wish, my prayer is that you find the life that Jesus created you to live and has hidden within Himself so in living that life you may have a uniquely intimate communion with Him. (Col.3:1-4)
Yours in the love of Jesus
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RE: five fold ministry! - 3/31/2008 12:25:38 AM
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1love1God1way
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
Some people will follow anyone with a cheap suit who says Christian sounding words....
Likewise, some people will automatically dismiss someone for the same reasons.
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-Ben-
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RE: five fold ministry! - 3/31/2008 1:23:21 AM
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Ezra
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quote:
ORIGINAL: AllForIsrael
quote:
"Apostle vs. Prophet"
Theres no Apostle vs Prophet debate. I guess over time they went from being called prophets to apostles in the NT.
Some key points from Scripture which seem to be missing from this discussion are:
1. The apostles were both apostles and prophets, and spoke and wrote prophetically, i.e. they gave men the Word of God, and what is written down in the NT is divinely inspired.
2. The apostles were not simply a continuation of the OT prophets, since Christ Himself was "the Prophet" who should come to Israel as prophesied by Moses, and they were His disciples (to be later called "apostles"). There were however, prophets in the NT churches alongside the apostles, and until the NT was completed they performed a necessary function.
3. Paul makes it crystal clear that the spiritual gifts of apostles and prophets were foundational (Eph. 2:20). What this means for us today in the 21st century that Scripture, which was written by the apostles and prophets, is foundational. God's truth has been revealed in His Word, and His Word, having been given to us through the apostles and prophets, is sufficient for all needs (2 Tim. 3:16,17).
4. When Paul mentions the five spiritual gifts given for "the perfecting of the saints" (Eph. 4:11) we should keep in mind that he is writing to Ephesian Christian who were living during the time that the apostles and prophets were exercising their gifts (the first century). With the passing of these apostles and prophets, and with the completion of the Scriptures, these gifts were no longer necessary.
5. The Hebrew canon is not "different" from the Christian canon (disregarding the RCC and EOC). It is simply arranged differently.
6. The Christian canon was completed with the book of Revelation, and there are no additional prophecies to be given. Anyone adding to or subtracting from the book of Revelation is a false prophet.
7. None of the early post-apostolic "Church Fathers" ever claimed to be either prophets or apostles. That in itself should tell us something.
8. False prophets are to be expected and shunned in the last days. They too will come doing signs and wonders and claiming to be true prophets. We have been warned in Scripture already. Therefore the so-called "Five-Fold Ministry" is bogus.
< Message edited by Ezra -- 3/31/2008 1:31:05 AM >
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: five fold ministry! - 3/31/2008 4:47:05 AM
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FurGodWurLivin
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Ezra, my big problem with the majority of your argument is that it is a split hermaneutic. To make this argument even half-way cohesive you have to split apart the verse in which the five-fold ministry (or four fold if you are so inclined) and completely seperate them from each other and their context. No one would argue that the offices of Pastor, Evangelist and Teacher are still in operation because we all know that people are called to be Pastors (there is one on almost every street corner), Evangelists (Billy Graham... Hello!), and Teachers. To say that those three are still in play and the other two are not is to make an argument that is completely undefendable.
quote:
Some key points from Scripture which seem to be missing from this discussion are:
1. The apostles were both apostles and prophets, and spoke and wrote prophetically, i.e. they gave men the Word of God, and what is written down in the NT is divinely inspired.
2. The apostles were not simply a continuation of the OT prophets, since Christ Himself was "the Prophet" who should come to Israel as prophesied by Moses, and they were His disciples (to be later called "apostles"). There were however, prophets in the NT churches alongside the apostles, and until the NT was completed they performed a necessary function. True... to a point. What makes you believe that they ceased after the NT was closed?
quote:
3. Paul makes it crystal clear that the spiritual gifts of apostles and prophets were foundational (Eph. 2:20). What this means for us today in the 21st century that Scripture, which was written by the apostles and prophets, is foundational. God's truth has been revealed in His Word, and His Word, having been given to us through the apostles and prophets, is sufficient for all needs (2 Tim. 3:16,17). The author of Hebrews has also made abundantly clear what counts as "foundational" in Hebrews 6. Then you look at how deficient the American church is in these teachings and principles, and it become abundantly clear that we still need people to lay foundations. At this point, I need to point out that you are picking and choosing what you want to believe in Ephesians, which means you don't believe the entire Bible is accurate. If the Bible is irrelevant to us, why do we bother to read it?
quote:
4. When Paul mentions the five spiritual gifts given for "the perfecting of the saints" (Eph. 4:11) we should keep in mind that he is writing to Ephesian Christian who were living during the time that the apostles and prophets were exercising their gifts (the first century). With the passing of these apostles and prophets, and with the completion of the Scriptures, these gifts were no longer necessary. So you are claiming that once the Scripture was completed the saints have been perfected? I know this is not true... because I can't balance my checkbook... I am nowhere NEAR perfected. By using your own arguments, the office of Apostle and Prophet are still in play until the saints have been completed. So until you are willing to claim that we have been, there is no basis to say that they are "unnecessary".
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5. The Hebrew canon is not "different" from the Christian canon (disregarding the RCC and EOC). It is simply arranged differently. True. Unless you count the Hebrew Tenakh being counted in the canon.
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6. The Christian canon was completed with the book of Revelation, and there are no additional prophecies to be given. Anyone adding to or subtracting from the book of Revelation is a false prophet. Once again, this is a split hermaneutic. If prophecy has ceased, then the testimony of Jesus has ceased (Rev 19:10)
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7. None of the early post-apostolic "Church Fathers" ever claimed to be either prophets or apostles. That in itself should tell us something. Aside from Origen, who was recognized as an Apostle... but I guess he doesn't count.
quote:
8. False prophets are to be expected and shunned in the last days. They too will come doing signs and wonders and claiming to be true prophets. We have been warned in Scripture already. Therefore the so-called "Five-Fold Ministry" is bogus. Just because there are false prophets coming (and already here, and already come) doesn't mean that there are no real prophets. Just like how a counterfeit $100 bill doesn't mean that $100 don't exist. Really, this argument kind of falls apart, because if you can simply pick and choose what you want to believe, Christianity becomes null and void for faith's purpose.
Adam
_____________________________
I am hyena, Jesus is my Mufasa...
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RE: five fold ministry! - 3/31/2008 7:04:14 AM
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Soxfan
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The two main qualifications for a foundational apostle are:
1. Must have physically seen the resurrected Christ
2. Must have been personally commissioned by the risen Christ.
Find me someone today that meets those two requirements and I will believe that these "offices" (Apostle and Prophet) are still in operation.
As others have stated, the "Five-Fold Ministry" is just another wing of the heretical Latter Rain movement, braought to the forefront in the 80's-90's by C Peter Wagner's heretical NAR. I faced it first hand.
And they can't even get the number right. It would be "FOUR-Fold ministry" Pastor-Teacher are one entity
_____________________________
"This would be the first step in apostasy; men first forget the true, and then adore the false.".......C.H. Spurgeon
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RE: five fold ministry! - 3/31/2008 5:33:30 PM
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cybrjewls
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
The canon of Scripture is not necessarily closed, If someone comes up with something that does not violate prior Scriptue and meets the Scriptural standards for revelation, it could very well be Scripture.
What!? Cannon is set. The Apostle admonishes: then you will learn the meaning of 'do not go beyond what is written.'
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RE: five fold ministry! - 3/31/2008 6:44:00 PM
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U376977
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One point that I have not read in this link is the difference in the foundational apostles and gifted apostles. Jesus began the apostles ministry when he chose and ordained the 12. They have been called the "apostles of the lamb." Also, the "foundational apostles" and "governmental apostles." Then there are the "gifted" apostles that were given to the church, (see Eph. 4:) "when he ascended on high he gave gifts to men." He then lists the "five-fold" or "four-fold" list depending on your interpetation of the connection/seperation of the pastor and teacher. The "gifted" apostles are never going to be in the class of the original 12, they must meet the qualifications that were used when a replacement of Judas was sought (seen the Lord, been a witness for the beginning, etc.) But there can be many "gifted" apostles and their ministries can be varied. They can be as many as the Holy Spirit wills to raise up. How could anyone not class some of the great missionaries of the past as not being apostles? Men like; Hudson Taylor, John G. Lake, Moody, David Brainard......many many more.
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RE: five fold ministry! - 3/31/2008 6:59:33 PM
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earthless
Posts: 4737
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where bbq pigeons roast....
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quote:
ORIGINAL: U376977
One point that I have not read in this link is the difference in the foundational apostles and gifted apostles. Jesus began the apostles ministry when he chose and ordained the 12. They have been called the "apostles of the lamb." Also, the "foundational apostles" and "governmental apostles." Then there are the "gifted" apostles that were given to the church, (see Eph. 4:) "when he ascended on high he gave gifts to men." He then lists the "five-fold" or "four-fold" list depending on your interpetation of the connection/seperation of the pastor and teacher. The "gifted" apostles are never going to be in the class of the original 12, they must meet the qualifications that were used when a replacement of Judas was sought (seen the Lord, been a witness for the beginning, etc.) But there can be many "gifted" apostles and their ministries can be varied. They can be as many as the Holy Spirit wills to raise up. How could anyone not class some of the great missionaries of the past as not being apostles? Men like; Hudson Taylor, John G. Lake, Moody, David Brainard......many many more.
Excellent post. The problem comes in when people today claim we can have Apostles today that are akin to the foundational apostles.
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: five fold ministry! - 3/31/2008 7:09:26 PM
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rlj
Posts: 1635
Joined: 4/14/2005
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quote:
1. Must have physically seen the resurrected Christ
2. Must have been personally commissioned by the risen Christ.
Matthias wasn't commissioned by Christ and many contended with Paul's authority because he didn't actually see the resurrected Christ.
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-Roger
1 Thess 5:20 do not treat prophecies with contempt. 21 Test everything. Hold on to the good. (NIV)
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RE: five fold ministry! - 3/31/2008 7:57:20 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: prophetica
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
The canon of Scripture is not necessarily closed, If someone comes up with something that does not violate prior Scriptue and meets the Scriptural standards for revelation, it could very well be Scripture.
What!? Cannon is set. The Apostle admonishes: then you will learn the meaning of 'do not go beyond what is written.'
I.m not sure what you are quoting, but if it is in the Apistolic Scriptures(new testiment), it would be refering to the Tanach since the Apistolic writing where not complete when they where being written. Therefore, by your interpretation, the canon would have been closed before Yeshua(Jesus) was born.
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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