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[Poll]
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To list or not to list.... ?
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| My 'list of qualities' for my future mate IS very important. |
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| My 'list of qualities' for my future mate is important. |
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| My 'list of qualities' for my future mate is NOT important. |
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| I am willing to change my 'list'. |
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| I trust God to provide my mate and don't rely on a 'list'. |
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| I don't have a 'list'. |
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Total Votes : 65
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(last vote on : 10/3/2008 1:16:53 AM)
(Poll will run till: -- )
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RE: To list or not to list.... ? - 4/9/2008 10:00:31 PM
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CoeurdeLeon_
Posts: 9467
Joined: 9/4/2005
From: Inside my head
Status: offline
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Nadine, I completely agree with you. Reality is messy and fairy tales are just that, fairy tales.
_____________________________
This morning I was awakened by the sound of purple
colliding with the fragrance of laughter.
Eutychus
New Blog
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RE: To list or not to list.... ? - 4/9/2008 10:51:18 PM
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John_O
Posts: 8014
Joined: 9/5/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: followtheLeader
"Happily Ever After" is a marriage where both spouses are perfect….not working towards perfection. In fairy tales, they are never selfish, over tired, stressed, angry or sarcastic. (other than the token evil character, in order to show good and evil of course.)
Note that this is the first time a definition for the term has been posted
quote:
You said:
quote:
It's not "happily ever after thinking". It's "happily ever after working".
And then you said:
quote:
Every marriage can be a happily ever after. And it can be that at every phase of the marriage.
And
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then together we can build a "happily ever after" marriage right here right now. Even in the valleys and deserts.
Which is it?
All of them are correct. I never claimed that anyone was perfect. And I didn't originally use the term "happily ever after" that was you guys' term. Which now defined as you just did is impossible.
But I disagree with that definition. If it wasn't for M getting sick we had a happily ever after marriage. Even with the difficulities, disagreements etc. Since we were both working for that outcome.
quote:
You said:
quote:
We are a fallen people. We all sin.
And then you said:
quote:
it is not inevitable that we will commit adultery, or even that we will sin against our spouse.
?????
I know that I will sin daily (even going just one MPH over the speed limit is a sin for example) but I don't have to be unkind, dishonest or unfaithful to my wife. I was always very good to M. So much so that she once got upset at me for not getting mad at her (Go figure?)
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OK. Why would I marry someone who DIDN'T want to seek perfection in our marriage and who DIDN'T want to follow the Lord all her life? I wouldn't.
I never said you would. I said:
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You want to seek perfection in your marriage and because you have decided to do this, you assume your wife will always do the same. You assume that because you want to make her happy, she will be. You also assume that since you sincerely desire to walk closely with the Lord all the days of your life, she will too. (never going through valleys or deserts)
See, I believe that you can agree to seek perfection in your marriage in the beginning. Hopefully it will turn out to be true. However, I believe that under certain circumstances, a spouse can change and there is nothing the other spouse can do about it. They may repent, they may not. No one can make someone repent. I am not talking about mental illness. And yes, I know, you disagree.
OK. Do we agree that two people can sincerely and wholeheartedly seek to build a strong marriage and follow the Lord. I'll assume yes.
So, Why do people stop doing that? The only circumstances I can see are external trauma or mental illness. (If you are thinking of others, post them and we'll discuss them) Why would a godly woman choose to NOT repent of a little sin she did? Big sins only come about built on a foundation of little sins. No one sets out to be a major liar. They just start relaxing their standards and telling little lies. Then those little lies get bigger etc. (Or you can use laziness in marriage as an example. Someone stops doing the little things they used to do while courting and slowly the whole romance part of the marriage dies (Of course someone who had decided to work on their marriage wouldn't slack off like that. Or at least we never did))
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I was married for 18 years. I know all about rubbing people the wrong way and the trials and tribulations that can arise when two people live together as one. I know how annoying the simple things can be. I know how upset people can get at each other. I know all about the fights and the struggles and the disappointments. I know all about her cutting her hair when you didn't want her to (had to throw that in for fans of the hair thread). And yet all these things are trivial and overcomeable if each has decided to work on the marriage and follow the Lord.
^^^^^^^^^^^
This is reality, beautiful, wonderful and imperfect reality. No “fairy tales” for me.
But it was the fairy tale. How can a marriage be any better than two people pulling together through the easy times and the hard times, when they like each other and when they can't stand each other, when they are healthy and when they are sick? We decided to make our marriage work. And through thick or thin that decision, and the grace of God, saw us through everything. Even fairy tales have hard times.
quote:
One last thing….I never mentioned adultery in my first post. I had no intention of going there again. The only mention I made of adultery in my second post was to tell you that I was not talking about adultery.
You did a really good job, once again of making me look pro-adultery and pro-premarital sex.
When you go on and on against something, some who are just glancing through may assume that the previous poster must have been for it.
I would not defend either if my life depended on it.
I'm sorry. I know you are not pro any of those things (You're a Christian after all) and would never have thought that someone reading would have thought that. I'll try to be more careful in my phrasing in the future.
The whole adultery discussion came about through Dakota's line of questioning that you never know what they will do, and that you never know what you will do when faced with certain situations. For this particular sin I know exactly what I would do because I will never let myself get into a situation where it is possible.
I went on and on because neither you nor Dakota seemed to get the point. And that point is: We don't have to sin in marriage and if we decide to work at it then a woman who meets my list will ALWAYS meet my list, as I will hers, because we work at meeting each others list.
_____________________________
Psalms 46:10 Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.
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RE: To list or not to list.... ? - 4/9/2008 10:55:00 PM
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AngelInWaiting1983
Posts: 10877
Joined: 6/8/2007
From: South Carolina
Status: offline
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Wow John! Very eloquently written. Why are you still single???
_____________________________
Reflecting with Terri
Dance like no one is watching. If they are, who cares!
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RE: To list or not to list.... ? - 4/9/2008 11:20:24 PM
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John_O
Posts: 8014
Joined: 9/5/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: angelterri1983
Wow John! Very eloquently written. Why are you still single???
You're the second person to ask that tonight.
I think I just have this incredibly good impression on line yet in real life I must come across like a cross between Genghis Kahn and the Hunch back of Notre Dame (with bad breath to boot!) 
_____________________________
Psalms 46:10 Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.
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RE: To list or not to list.... ? - 4/9/2008 11:21:46 PM
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AngelInWaiting1983
Posts: 10877
Joined: 6/8/2007
From: South Carolina
Status: offline
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Ok. The bad breath and hunch back can be dealt with, but since I don't know who the other guy is i'm at a loss.
_____________________________
Reflecting with Terri
Dance like no one is watching. If they are, who cares!
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RE: To list or not to list.... ? - 4/9/2008 11:35:14 PM
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John_O
Posts: 8014
Joined: 9/5/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: angelterri1983
Ok. The bad breath and hunch back can be dealt with, but since I don't know who the other guy is i'm at a loss.
Genghis Kahn He was not a very nice person.
_____________________________
Psalms 46:10 Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.
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RE: To list or not to list.... ? - 4/10/2008 12:16:00 AM
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WaitingforBoaz
Posts: 3981
Joined: 2/11/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: John_O
quote:
ORIGINAL: followtheLeader
"Happily Ever After" is a marriage where both spouses are perfect….not working towards perfection. In fairy tales, they are never selfish, over tired, stressed, angry or sarcastic. (other than the token evil character, in order to show good and evil of course.)
Note that this is the first time a definition for the term has been posted
quote:
You said:
quote:
It's not "happily ever after thinking". It's "happily ever after working".
And then you said:
quote:
Every marriage can be a happily ever after. And it can be that at every phase of the marriage.
And
quote:
then together we can build a "happily ever after" marriage right here right now. Even in the valleys and deserts.
Which is it?
All of them are correct. I never claimed that anyone was perfect. And I didn't originally use the term "happily ever after" that was you guys' term. Which now defined as you just did is impossible.
But I disagree with that definition. If it wasn't for M getting sick we had a happily ever after marriage. Even with the difficulities, disagreements etc. Since we were both working for that outcome.
It is true, each couple can have their own version of Happily Ever After, but when you are speaking in general terms, and you have possibly hundreds of singles who have never been married reading this thread, (including non members). you have a certain amount of personal responsibility in portraying marriage in a realistic light. Yes, Be intentional, yes, decide ahead of time what kind of spouse you desire to be and yes leave a little room for the what-if's.
quote:
You said:
quote:
We are a fallen people. We all sin.
And then you said:
quote:
it is not inevitable that we will commit adultery, or even that we will sin against our spouse.
?????
I know that I will sin daily (even going just one MPH over the speed limit is a sin for example) but I don't have to be unkind, dishonest or unfaithful to my wife. I was always very good to M. So much so that she once got upset at me for not getting mad at her (Go figure?)
quote:
quote:
OK. Why would I marry someone who DIDN'T want to seek perfection in our marriage and who DIDN'T want to follow the Lord all her life? I wouldn't.
I never said you would. I said:
quote:
You want to seek perfection in your marriage and because you have decided to do this, you assume your wife will always do the same. You assume that because you want to make her happy, she will be. You also assume that since you sincerely desire to walk closely with the Lord all the days of your life, she will too. (never going through valleys or deserts)
See, I believe that you can agree to seek perfection in your marriage in the beginning. Hopefully it will turn out to be true. However, I believe that under certain circumstances, a spouse can change and there is nothing the other spouse can do about it. They may repent, they may not. No one can make someone repent. I am not talking about mental illness. And yes, I know, you disagree.
quote:
OK. Do we agree that two people can sincerely and wholeheartedly seek to build a strong marriage and follow the Lord. I'll assume yes.
Yes, It would be foolhearty and just plain wrong to marry someone that is not completely dedicated to you and your marriage forever.
quote:
So, Why do people stop doing that? The only circumstances I can see are external trauma or mental illness. (If you are thinking of others, post them and we'll discuss them) Why would a godly woman choose to NOT repent of a little sin she did? Big sins only come about built on a foundation of little sins. No one sets out to be a major liar. They just start relaxing their standards and telling little lies. Then those little lies get bigger etc. (Or you can use laziness in marriage as an example. Someone stops doing the little things they used to do while courting and slowly the whole romance part of the marriage dies (Of course someone who had decided to work on their marriage wouldn't slack off like that. Or at least we never did))
This one is getting to long, I am going to answer this question in another post.
quote:
quote:
I was married for 18 years. I know all about rubbing people the wrong way and the trials and tribulations that can arise when two people live together as one. I know how annoying the simple things can be. I know how upset people can get at each other. I know all about the fights and the struggles and the disappointments. I know all about her cutting her hair when you didn't want her to (had to throw that in for fans of the hair thread). And yet all these things are trivial and overcomeable if each has decided to work on the marriage and follow the Lord.
^^^^^^^^^^^
This is reality, beautiful, wonderful and imperfect reality. No “fairy tales” for me.
quote:
But it was the fairy tale.
Yes, yours and M's personal definition of it.
quote:
How can a marriage be any better than two people pulling together through the easy times and the hard times, when they like each other and when they can't stand each other, when they are healthy and when they are sick? We decided to make our marriage work. And through thick or thin that decision, and the grace of God, saw us through everything.
Yes like I said:
quote:
This is reality, beautiful, wonderful and imperfect reality. No “fairy tales” for me.
quote:
Even fairy tales have hard times.
Please do not tell Disney this. 
quote:
One last thing….I never mentioned adultery in my first post. I had no intention of going there again. The only mention I made of adultery in my second post was to tell you that I was not talking about adultery.
You did a really good job, once again of making me look pro-adultery and pro-premarital sex.
When you go on and on against something, some who are just glancing through may assume that the previous poster must have been for it.
I would not defend either if my life depended on it.
quote:
I'm sorry. I know you are not pro any of those things (You're a Christian after all) and would never have thought that someone reading would have thought that. I'll try to be more careful in my phrasing in the future.
The whole adultery discussion came about through Dakota's line of questioning that you never know what they will do, and that you never know what you will do when faced with certain situations. For this particular sin I know exactly what I would do because I will never let myself get into a situation where it is possible.
quote:
I went on and on because neither you nor Dakota seemed to get the point. And that point is: We don't have to sin in marriage and if we decide to work at it then a woman who meets my list will ALWAYS meet my list, as I will hers, because we work at meeting each others list.
John, John, John, Are you telling me that you never sinned against M in 18 years of marriage. I thought I was pretty close to perfect as a wife and I know that I sinned against John. How can you live in the same home for 18 years and not sin against them. If that's the case you definitely belong in the Guiness Book of world records for forbearance. Forget that, you should be Sainted  (what ever that is)
Thinking of you on this day by the by. 
Kept you busy though didn't I. 
_____________________________
"Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a mans character, give him power" - Abraham Lincoln
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RE: To list or not to list.... ? - 4/10/2008 5:50:41 AM
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mutinywxgirl
Posts: 12577
Joined: 4/29/2005
From: west coast of FL
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: John_O
quote:
ORIGINAL: angelterri1983
Wow John! Very eloquently written. Why are you still single???
You're the second person to ask that tonight.
I think I just have this incredibly good impression on line yet in real life I must come across like a cross between Genghis Kahn and the Hunch back of Notre Dame (with bad breath to boot!)
Terri (and others who are wondering the same thing) - John is one of the most amazing men I've ever encountered. Yes, he's an engineer and has his quirks, but, he's 100% sold out to Jesus and following His word. He has been through an amazing marriage that God used to bring him to Him. So, he grew into his marriage as well as growing in Christ. Pretty neat combination, if you ask me.
Why is he still single? He takes his responsibilities VERY seriously - and right now, that includes raising his daughter. And by doing that, it doesn't give him much time to "go looking" for another wife. And with where he lives, there are not many around who fit his "demographics". So, God truly DOES need to bring her to him - through whatever means He sees fit. And I have NO doubt that God is going to do that - God is preparing them both and just needs for the meeting to take place. But, only He knows when that will take place.
In the mean time, WE are truly blessed in this forum to have his expertise (and Esther and Nadine) to give us all a glimpse into what a godly marriage is like and what WE have to look forward to as God brings us our respective mates.
And yes, he does have a list.
_____________________________
When blood and water hit the ground.
Walls we couldn't move came crashing down.
We were free and made alive.
The day true love died. The day true love died.
Lisa is happy THE ROWDIES ARE BACK!
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RE: To list or not to list.... ? - 4/10/2008 9:19:20 AM
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John_O
Posts: 8014
Joined: 9/5/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: followtheLeader
It is true, each couple can have their own version of Happily Ever After, but when you are speaking in general terms, and you have possibly hundreds of singles who have never been married reading this thread, (including non members). you have a certain amount of personal responsibility in portraying marriage in a realistic light. Yes, Be intentional, yes, decide ahead of time what kind of spouse you desire to be and yes leave a little room for the what-if's.
I never said that any marriage was problem free. All marriages have problems. But those problems pale beside the power God has given us through his grace and through us deciding to work on our marriages.
I have portrayed marriage realistically (at least marriage as I have experienced it). It is realistic that two people who have decided to follow Jesus and work towards building a good marriage will continue to follow Jesus and work on building a good marriage (unless impacted by external trauma or mental illness)
quote:
quote:
OK. Do we agree that two people can sincerely and wholeheartedly seek to build a strong marriage and follow the Lord. I'll assume yes.
Yes, It would be foolhearty and just plain wrong to marry someone that is not completely dedicated to you and your marriage forever.
See, we do agree!
quote:
quote:
So, Why do people stop doing that? The only circumstances I can see are external trauma or mental illness. (If you are thinking of others, post them and we'll discuss them) Why would a godly woman choose to NOT repent of a little sin she did? Big sins only come about built on a foundation of little sins. No one sets out to be a major liar. They just start relaxing their standards and telling little lies. Then those little lies get bigger etc. (Or you can use laziness in marriage as an example. Someone stops doing the little things they used to do while courting and slowly the whole romance part of the marriage dies (Of course someone who had decided to work on their marriage wouldn't slack off like that. Or at least we never did))
This one is getting to long, I am going to answer this question in another post.
I look forward to reading it.
quote:
quote:
How can a marriage be any better than two people pulling together through the easy times and the hard times, when they like each other and when they can't stand each other, when they are healthy and when they are sick? We decided to make our marriage work. And through thick or thin that decision, and the grace of God, saw us through everything.
Yes like I said:
quote:
This is reality, beautiful, wonderful and imperfect reality. No “fairy tales” for me.
See we agree again. Whether you call it a "fairy tale" or not. A good marriage is a good marriage.
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quote:
Even fairy tales have hard times.
Please do not tell Disney this.
Pick a Disney story where there is not heartbreak and pain. I can think of only a couple disney stories where both parents are alive and still married. Most Disney 'stars' are orphans.
Most traditional fairy tales also involve bad times. If we didn't have hard times in our lives we wouldn't appreciate the good times. The stones in the way of the water give the brook it's voice.
quote:
John, John, John, Are you telling me that you never sinned against M in 18 years of marriage. I thought I was pretty close to perfect as a wife and I know that I sinned against John. How can you live in the same home for 18 years and not sin against them. If that's the case you definitely belong in the Guiness Book of world records for forbearance. Forget that, you should be Sainted (what ever that is)
I am a saint of God already
I guess it would depend how you define "sinned against her". I never hit her (with one exception which ends up being a very cute story by itself), I never yelled at her (Unless she yelled first and I needed to get her attention for a moment), I certainly never commited adultery against her, nor did I give attention to others that was rightfully hers. I provided well for her, saw to her health (Physical, mental emotional, spiritual). I tried my best to be a good biblical husband to her.
Give me a few examples of what you consider sinning against her and we'll see.
While I am sure I probably 'sinned' against her in some way I normally interpret that phrase as pointing to unfaithfulness. I was never unfaithful.
quote:
Thinking of you on this day by the by.
Kept you busy though didn't I.
Thank you. the day went pretty well all things considered. I'll be posting a little blurb on it later in the day on my PFY thread.
_____________________________
Psalms 46:10 Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.
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RE: To list or not to list.... ? - 4/10/2008 9:29:12 AM
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Tinkerbell_
Posts: 7761
Joined: 1/25/2008
From: NeverNeverLand
Status: offline
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You know, I had a thought and I'm not sure if it pertains to this discussion or not, but here it is.
When I was married I had a horrible marriage. He was a brand new Christian and I wasn't strong enough (IMO) to be the Christian wife he needed and so it failed miserably. I don't want to get into too many details, but it wasn't a marriage at all.
From that, I have learned what makes a marriage work. Kind of the opposite of what John and Esther and everyone else who had good marriages. I know what doesn't work. So not only did I have to learn what doesn't work, but to also learn what does work. I didn't learn that by waking up one day and thinking, "hmmm...if you do this, this, this, and this, your marriage will be fine." I learned it by studying His word, talking to Him, and just as importantly, watching those around me. I'm a huge observer (contrary to the belief) and I'm blessed with mostly married friends. Sometimes something will happen and I'll ask them how they deal with it, or what they suggest, stuff like that.
Praise God He didn't grant my request to remarry years ago or I probably would have been in the same boat as I was with my first marriage.
He's given me time and space to become the wife I need to be for the husband He's preparing for me.
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RE: To list or not to list.... ? - 4/10/2008 12:20:28 PM
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WaitingforBoaz
Posts: 3981
Joined: 2/11/2008
Status: offline
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I want to stay on topic here so let me just start out by saying that lists in and of themselves are not necessarily bad. If they are a guideline to help you make wise choices in a mate and not a list of required qualities. (Again I am speaking outside of the no brainers for Christians.)I personally refuse to make a list.
I know that it seems like we have beaten this topic to death, but please try to understand where I am coming from. I had a wonderful marriage. God blessed me abundantly. It was not a fairy tale but it was very good. However, my John was a singles pastor for long enough that I saw a lot of divorced, hurting people, that were Christians when they got married, where they Both agreed to work on the marriage and that the marriage was forever. One of them however, did not keep that promise. Do you think that they knew before hand that they would mess up and sin against their spouse? I don’t think so.
I personally have friends that got married around the same time as hubby and I did. The man in both situations was in ministry as well (Both were youth pastors). We knew these people; we spent lots of time with these couples, our kids played together. (The women happen to be sisters.) I admired these men. They were bearing fruit; they talked about what God was teaching them. One was musically talented and led very sweet worship. They both had affairs and are now divorced. My friends were devastated. They both felt that they were doing all the right things to have a healthy marriage, and they were from all appearances, and it was not enough. (Yes ,there must have been secret sin at some point, but we never saw it. Neither did their spouses)
Now, some have made this an either/or situation. Either you believe your marriage will be perfect and that if you go into it believing it will, than it will be or the doom and gloom scenario; Expect failure and if it doesn’t happen than consider yourself lucky.
It does not have to be either/or. I am just saying, yes wait for Gods leading in whom to marry and when you do get married, plan on that marriage being forever. But be willing to fight for it on your knees if necessary, because that may be where you end up. Have you read the marriage thread? Why do you think that thread is full of hurting people, with problems in their marriages? They are human. They will mess up, Their spouses will mess up. They are Christians too. It would be foolhardy to say that it won’t happen to you. No one can predict the future or know what God will allow in our lives. I’m sure the divorce threads are full of people who never saw it coming. (or at least could not have predicted it on their wedding day.) You never really know someone until you live with them.
I pray for each single here that God will give you the desire of your heart and that He will do exceeding abundantly beyond all you can ask or want. Gods list is best, and I look forward to “reading” that list as I live out the rest of my life with my future husband.
_____________________________
"Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a mans character, give him power" - Abraham Lincoln
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RE: To list or not to list.... ? - 4/10/2008 1:39:55 PM
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iwillfearnoevil
Posts: 4209
Joined: 11/6/2007
From: upstate NY
Status: offline
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great summary nadine. i could add to it but i'll let your words sink in :]
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RE: To list or not to list.... ? - 4/10/2008 1:53:33 PM
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John_O
Posts: 8014
Joined: 9/5/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: followtheLeader
I personally have friends that got married around the same time as hubby and I did. The man in both situations was in ministry as well (Both were youth pastors). We knew these people; we spent lots of time with these couples, our kids played together. (The women happen to be sisters.) I admired these men. They were bearing fruit; they talked about what God was teaching them. One was musically talented and led very sweet worship. They both had affairs and are now divorced. My friends were devastated. They both felt that they were doing all the right things to have a healthy marriage, and they were from all appearances, and it was not enough. (Yes ,there must have been secret sin at some point, but we never saw it. Neither did their spouses)
I've seen a bunch of marriages fail too. And in every case where the couple had decided to work on their marriage from the outset, it was due to external trauma or mental illness. I'd also seen a bunch of marriages fail for all sorts of reasons where th couiple didin't decide to work on their marriage form the start.
Part of the equation to having a good marriage is accepting nothing less. Marriage is forever. So much so that In my and M's marriage we never even spoke the "d" word in our house. It was so not an option that the word naming it didn't even exist. Even to this day I prefer to not use that word at all.
quote:
Now, some have made this an either/or situation. Either you believe your marriage will be perfect and that if you go into it believing it will, than it will be or the doom and gloom scenario; Expect failure and if it doesn’t happen than consider yourself lucky.
No one ever said that the marriage would be perfect. All marriages have problems. But the couple should be aiming for perfection.
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I am just saying, yes wait for Gods leading in whom to marry and when you do get married, plan on that marriage being forever. But be willing to fight for it on your knees if necessary,
Perfect. (After I fixed it a little)
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Have you read the marriage thread? Why do you think that thread is full of hurting people, with problems in their marriages? They are human. They will mess up, Their spouses will mess up. They are Christians too.
Because they, or their spouses, quit and stopped working to overcome the problem. And most quittings are not just out of the blue. The person who sins against the marriage doesn't wake up one morning and decide, "Hey I'm going to go sin against my marriage today". They get to that point from a long habit of little lapses. If you guard against the little lapses the big events never happen.
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It would be foolhardy to say that it won’t happen to you.
Totally disagree. IF my new wife is sold out to the Lord and is seeking to build a strong marriage then there is nothing on or under this earth that can stop us from having a strong marriage. I know that I won't break our vows and if I choose wisely, and do my job as a husband, I know that she won't break her vows either. The trick to the whole thing is making sure that your future spouse is sold out and that they are seeking to build a strong marriage with you.
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You never really know someone until you live with them.
This is true. And this is where trusting God comes in big time. You've got to choose wisely and trust him when He gives you the Ok to marry.
Most marriage success is based on the choice you make and the decisions you make. While it's true that you can never really know how your spouse will react, you can do your best to choose someone who you believe is truthful and sold out to Jesus. Then you can be the absolute best person you can be.
(Editing this to ammend the last paragraph. )
That all being said lets assume absolute worst case. They have been lying to you from the start and for some reason (known only to Himi) God didn't wave you off of them. They break their vows. You can rest easy knowing that YOU didn't break your vows and the marriage's failure is entirely their fault. You can leave with a clean heart and a clean conscience.
(The person who breaks the vows first (because after that the vows don't exist) is ALWAYS 100% guilty. There is no excuse for it, ever, under any circumstances)
< Message edited by John_O -- 4/10/2008 2:31:37 PM >
_____________________________
Psalms 46:10 Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.
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RE: To list or not to list.... ? - 4/10/2008 2:48:19 PM
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WaitingforBoaz
Posts: 3981
Joined: 2/11/2008
Status: offline
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This post was not necessarily directed at you but a summation of My views on this thread.
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ORIGINAL: John_O
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They both felt that they were doing all the right things to have a healthy marriage, and they were from all appearances, and it was not enough. (Yes ,there must have been secret sin at some point, but we never saw it. Neither did their spouses)
I've seen a bunch of marriages fail too. And in every case where the couple had decided to work on their marriage from the outset, it was due to external trauma or mental illness. I'd also seen a bunch of marriages fail for all sorts of reasons where th couiple didin't decide to work on their marriage form the start.
I emphatically disagree. But very agreeably.
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Have you read the marriage thread? Why do you think that thread is full of hurting people, with problems in their marriages? They are human. They will mess up, Their spouses will mess up. They are Christians too.
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It would be foolhardy to say that it won’t happen to you.
When these quotes are separated they can be taken out of context. I was not talking about infidelity in this quote. It says messing up and having problems. All people mess up. All people have problems.
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They get to that point from a long habit of little lapses. If you guard against the little lapses the big events never happen.
If you think you can keep yourself from every "little" sin. Then you are perfect.
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Totally disagree. IF my new wife is sold out to the Lord and is seeking to build a strong marriage then there is nothing on or under this earth that can stop us from having a strong marriage. I know that I won't break our vows and if I choose wisely, and do my job as a husband, I know that she won't break her vows either. The trick to the whole thing is making sure that your future spouse is sold out and that they are seeking to build a strong marriage with you.
Please tell us how you do that....I think alot of now divorced people would really like to know where they went wrong when they prayed for a Godly spouse, married a Godly spouse and still ended up having them cheat on them............
You are leaving out one very important factor: Freewill.
That little thing that God gave us that causes us not to be perfect. I can just hear God now as Adam says " I will not eat of the fruit...I can choose not to eat of the fruit." (Crunch) (juicy chewing sounds)
God: um....you were saying.
I agree with most of what you post, however, I emphatically disagree on a couple of things.
You are a very worthy opponant John. I wish I were coming to the GT so I could shake your hand.....isn't that what they do after they beat each other to the pulp in some so-called "sports." Well I enjoy "Sporting" with you with words.......on occasion.
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"Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a mans character, give him power" - Abraham Lincoln
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RE: To list or not to list.... ? - 4/10/2008 3:01:08 PM
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OneOfHisJewels
Posts: 2694
Joined: 8/9/2007
From: California
Status: offline
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To answer the OP, apart from the debate that is going on, my answer here is similar to what my answer in the marital expectations thread would be. I said over there that the word expectations make me antsy, because expectations can come crashing down. I also ask myself if I am BEING the kind of person that would be on someone else's list. That is important too. Of course I desire Godliness, and I have few other things that I think it would be nice, and due to my health issues, I will probably need someone financially stable, both because of insurance, and due to my limitations, will need at least some household help(I'm not saying a live in maid, just something)..My other desires I have decided not to post in either thread, because of this being a public forum. Like I said on the other thread, the ultimately curious may pm me. But I also know that sometimes God's ways are not our own, and he knows what we need in a spouse to better shape our character than we do.
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Now thank we all our God, with hearts and hands and voices, what wondrous things He's done, in whom the world rejoices.
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RE: To list or not to list.... ? - 4/10/2008 3:25:17 PM
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iwillfearnoevil
Posts: 4209
Joined: 11/6/2007
From: upstate NY
Status: offline
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oohj - that is a good reminder about us continually asking if we'd appear on someone else's list. a spouse can't fix all our shortcomings, we need to work on them too :)
nadine - i think freewill hits it on the head. it is a topic i've spent much time with wrestling in my head this last year. i think turning away from God often happens before turning their back on their spouse. and people do backslide or turn away for other reasons than mental illness or trauma.
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RE: To list or not to list.... ? - 4/10/2008 3:27:46 PM
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John_O
Posts: 8014
Joined: 9/5/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: followtheLeader
This post was not necessarily directed at you but a summation of My views on this thread.
quote:
Have you read the marriage thread? Why do you think that thread is full of hurting people, with problems in their marriages? They are human. They will mess up, Their spouses will mess up. They are Christians too.
quote:
It would be foolhardy to say that it won’t happen to you.
When these quotes are separated they can be taken out of context. I was not talking about infidelity in this quote. It says messing up and having problems. All people mess up. All people have problems.
But my point is that those problems do not have to be marriage enders if both people are working to build a strong marriage. Repent, fix the problem so it's really fixed and move on to the next one. Happy Marriage!
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quote:
They get to that point from a long habit of little lapses. If you guard against the little lapses the big events never happen.
If you think you can keep yourself from every "little" sin. Then you are perfect.
Perhaps I was not clear. If you handle the little problems, "Oh no I looked at a woman incorrectly", repent and seek to do better then you never get to the bigger problems "Oh no I just spent 15 minutes chatting up this other woman". By guarding against the little ones, preventing them when you can and repenting quickly when you fail to, you can prevent the bigger problems from even occuring
quote:
quote:
Totally disagree. IF my new wife is sold out to the Lord and is seeking to build a strong marriage then there is nothing on or under this earth that can stop us from having a strong marriage. I know that I won't break our vows and if I choose wisely, and do my job as a husband, I know that she won't break her vows either. The trick to the whole thing is making sure that your future spouse is sold out and that they are seeking to build a strong marriage with you.
Please tell us how you do that....I think alot of now divorced people would really like to know where they went wrong when they prayed for a Godly spouse, married a Godly spouse and still ended up having them cheat on them............
Lots of prayer, lots of examination and lots of keeping your eyes open and seeing what's really there instead of what you want to see. For example, you go out to eat and she's rude to the waiter. Yellow flag. You go out to eat again or several times and she's usually rude to the waiter. Big red flag. You have to watch how they are to other people, not just how they are to you.
Lots of talking. Got to get inside their heads and find what's really important to them. And pay attention to what they say. No liar is entirely consistent if you pay close attention.
Now I'll admit that I got lucky with M. I was lost when we were dating (got saved 4 months after we got engaged). But from the point of our engagement we both decided to work on building a strong marriage. failure wasn't an option. (I was never a big believer in "d")
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You are leaving out one very important factor: Freewill.
It is our freewill that we use to decide to work on our marriage and follow the Lord. Maybe I'm just too unusual. I make a decision and it stays made. I decided to be a good husband to M and I was. There was never the option of not doing my duty to her and to God, especially when she got sick (And even her parents said they were surprised I was still there). If someone decides up front, they can do it.
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I agree with most of what you post, however, I emphatically disagree on a couple of things.
You are a very worthy opponant John. I wish I were coming to the GT so I could shake your hand.....isn't that what they do after they beat each other to the pulp in some so-called "sports." Well I enjoy "Sporting" with you with words.......on occasion.
Agreed. Wish you were coming.
< Message edited by John_O -- 4/10/2008 3:35:20 PM >
_____________________________
Psalms 46:10 Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.
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RE: To list or not to list.... ? - 4/10/2008 3:44:57 PM
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WaitingforBoaz
Posts: 3981
Joined: 2/11/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: iwillfearnoevil
oohj - that is a good reminder about us continually asking if we'd appear on someone else's list. a spouse can't fix all our shortcomings, we need to work on them too :)
nadine - i think freewill hits it on the head. it is a topic i've spent much time with wrestling in my head this last year. i think turning away from God often happens before turning their back on their spouse. and people do backslide or turn away for other reasons than mental illness or trauma.
Thanks, I agree with you.
_____________________________
"Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a mans character, give him power" - Abraham Lincoln
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RE: To list or not to list.... ? - 4/10/2008 3:49:06 PM
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iwillfearnoevil
Posts: 4209
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