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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 3/14/2008 10:04:47 AM
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stellaluna
Posts: 4286
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stellaluna
It's probably in here somewhere, but can someone save me the trouble of looking and tell me how WOFers explain the camel/needle v. rich man/heaven scenario?
I'm bumping my own post.
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 3/14/2008 10:41:15 AM
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mcleod
Posts: 1076
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stellaluna,
They would probably explain if the would even try to. That the love of money is the root of all evil and that they don't love it. Just like when Mr. King ask White on his show she side step it and gave a confusing answer.
I heard one time explain it, that it was a gate in Jerusalem where they wouldn't allow camels to go thru. After hearing that I went up to the speaker and said " well does it really matter if it was an eye of needle or a gate in which a camel could not go thru"? He looked at me and said nothing.
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 3/14/2008 4:01:27 PM
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Kat_D
Posts: 3131
Joined: 9/2/2005
From: Where We Shake, Rattle & Roll!
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bjay0801
Kenneth Hagin, who is believed to have started the WOF movement got together with some of the big time pastors of this day before he died and told them that they were very wrong concerning the way they have been preaching prosperity. He also said that if a person comes to you and says that they have an annointing break debt over you then run! His message concerning prosperity and the way it has been taught today is very different from what I understand.
Where did you hear this? Do you have a link/resource you can share? Inquiring minds want to know!
_____________________________
~Kat
"...And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes...no more death, sorrow, nor crying."
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 3/14/2008 4:05:02 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3614
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
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I believe, and could be wrong, that the word for "camel"
is also rendered "rope."
A camel and needle have nothing in common.
But a rope is a type of thread and could not go through a needle.
I've come out of WoF, and the idea is that you have to strip a camel
of all the baggage, and then it has to kneel to get through the door
of the gate. But, in those times there were gate keepers. The gates
were closed at sundown and no one could enter or exit. I think they
had to get the permission from the high priest to get in or out. Again,
I could be wrong.
I've grown a grey beard, so those senior moments are more evident. lol.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 3/16/2008 3:16:50 PM
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Kath
Posts: 17140
Joined: 2/28/2005
Status: online
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quote:
Worse...her name is actually Moon "Unit."
That's it, I knew it didn't sound quite right. I've heard of Dweezil but not Diva Muffin. Poor kids.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Kat_D
quote:
ORIGINAL: bjay0801
Kenneth Hagin, who is believed to have started the WOF movement got together with some of the big time pastors of this day before he died and told them that they were very wrong concerning the way they have been preaching prosperity. He also said that if a person comes to you and says that they have an annointing break debt over you then run! His message concerning prosperity and the way it has been taught today is very different from what I understand.
Where did you hear this? Do you have a link/resource you can share? Inquiring minds want to know!
I'd like to know more about this too.
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 3/16/2008 9:28:43 PM
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lightshineon
Posts: 3538
Joined: 4/11/2005
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Me too, I sure hope for his sake this is true. I know alot of people who follow his ways. I have heard things about him, but never listened to his messages, though I know alot of Rhema graduates Very sweet people, but I always feel leary, if they are preaching.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Kath
quote:
Worse...her name is actually Moon "Unit."
That's it, I knew it didn't sound quite right. I've heard of Dweezil but not Diva Muffin. Poor kids.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Kat_D
quote:
ORIGINAL: bjay0801
Kenneth Hagin, who is believed to have started the WOF movement got together with some of the big time pastors of this day before he died and told them that they were very wrong concerning the way they have been preaching prosperity. He also said that if a person comes to you and says that they have an annointing break debt over you then run! His message concerning prosperity and the way it has been taught today is very different from what I understand.
Where did you hear this? Do you have a link/resource you can share? Inquiring minds want to know!
I'd like to know more about this too.
_____________________________
Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 3/16/2008 11:43:19 PM
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jimbob1
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^^I've never heard any preach but some regular followers or wof people have prayed for me & I accept their prayers.
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 3/17/2008 2:54:53 AM
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1love1God1way
Posts: 2417
Joined: 5/16/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: carlkeigley
I believe, and could be wrong, that the word for "camel"
is also rendered "rope."
A camel and needle have nothing in common.
But a rope is a type of thread and could not go through a needle.
I've come out of WoF, and the idea is that you have to strip a camel
of all the baggage, and then it has to kneel to get through the door
of the gate. But, in those times there were gate keepers. The gates
were closed at sundown and no one could enter or exit. I think they
had to get the permission from the high priest to get in or out. Again,
I could be wrong.
I've grown a grey beard, so those senior moments are more evident. lol.
Not to be totally off topic, but that whole notion of the "eye of the needle" being a small gate in the way for camels never sprung up until the 1500s, I believe, and there is no proof that there ever was such a gateway at those times.
And don't you think that would loose all of the power of the message, to say that the only difficulty is that the camel would have to kneel? I mean, seriously? Was Jesus ever that lax when speaking of these kind of things?
_____________________________
love.ben
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 3/17/2008 9:30:00 AM
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Soxfan
Posts: 1492
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Connecticut
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bjay0801
Kenneth Hagin, who is believed to have started the WOF movement got together with some of the big time pastors of this day before he died and told them that they were very wrong concerning the way they have been preaching prosperity. He also said that if a person comes to you and says that they have an annointing break debt over you then run! His message concerning prosperity and the way it has been taught today is very different from what I understand.
I have never heard Hagin or his son denounce WoF teaching. Please provide a link to this
_____________________________
"This would be the first step in apostasy; men first forget the true, and then adore the false.".......C.H. Spurgeon
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 3/17/2008 9:36:56 AM
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earthless
Posts: 6276
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Soxfan
quote:
ORIGINAL: bjay0801
Kenneth Hagin, who is believed to have started the WOF movement got together with some of the big time pastors of this day before he died and told them that they were very wrong concerning the way they have been preaching prosperity. He also said that if a person comes to you and says that they have an annointing break debt over you then run! His message concerning prosperity and the way it has been taught today is very different from what I understand.
I have never heard Hagin or his son denounce WoF teaching. Please provide a link to this
Same here...
You would think the ministry I do a lot of writing for would be the first to know of such a thing.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 3/17/2008 12:51:34 PM
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wintery
Posts: 1884
Joined: 2/1/2007
From: nw alabama
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Psalm 37:7 Rest in the LORD, and wait patiently for him: fret not thyself because of him who prospereth in his way, because of the man who bringeth wicked devices to pass.
Word of Faith works! Sometimes, for some people, but it doesn't mean God is in it.
What is the quality of character that comes to some people when they think that God owes them something? It's certain that everyone else owes them as well.
Did Jesus teach self-denial? Matthew 16:24-27 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
So how is it that some pastors, churches and Christians have decided that they can have it all? All this and Jesus too?
I just wanted today to say that if there is a situation like Psalm 37, where either an evil person or a carnal Christian is accumulating wealth, and believing that it's because of their Word of Faith beliefs, which they may think warms their soul but is actually searing their conscience, remember that Matthew 16:27 tells us that everyone will be rewarded according to their works...when the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels.
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 3/17/2008 10:31:51 PM
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Propitiation
Posts: 73
Joined: 6/18/2007
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I could be wrong but this is the closest I could find for a link.
But before he died in 2003 and left his Rhema Bible Training Center in the hands of his son, Kenneth Hagin Jr., he summoned many of his colleagues to Tulsa to rebuke them for distorting his message. He was not happy that some of his followers were manipulating the Bible to support what he viewed as greed and selfish indulgence.
http://www.cbn.com/spirituallife/churchandministry/Grady_Hagan_Prosperity.aspx
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 3/18/2008 10:52:57 PM
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Kat_D
Posts: 3131
Joined: 9/2/2005
From: Where We Shake, Rattle & Roll!
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quote:
ORIGINAL: map4
http://www.kcm.org/studycenter/articles/faith_hope/secret_of_cross.php
What about this article? What do you think he is saying?
That article is by Kenneth Copeland and I'm not quite sure how it relates. The poster (bj0801) said he had knowledge that Kenneth Hagin had denounced the prosperity doctrine before his death and I asked if he had a link or something that validated that claim.
_____________________________
~Kat
"...And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes...no more death, sorrow, nor crying."
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 3/18/2008 11:18:51 PM
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Propitiation
Posts: 73
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Here are some tidbits from the link if anyone is interested.
http://www.cbn.com/spirituallife/churchandministry/Grady_Hagan_Prosperity.aspx
1. Financial prosperity is not a sign of God’s blessing. Hagin wrote: “If wealth alone were a sign of spirituality, then drug traffickers and crime bosses would be spiritual giants. Material wealth can be connected to the blessings of God or it can be totally disconnected from the blessings of God.”
2. People should never give in order to get. Hagin was critical of those who “try to make the offering plate some kind of heavenly vending machine.” He denounced those who link giving to getting, especially those who give cars to get new cars or who give suits to get new suits. He wrote: “There is no spiritual formula to sow a Ford and reap a Mercedes.”
3. It is not biblical to “name your seed” in an offering. Hagin was horrified by this practice, which was popularized in faith conferences during the 1980s. Faith preachers sometimes tell donors that when they give in an offering they should claim a specific benefit to get a blessing in return. Hagin rejected this idea and said that focusing on what you are going to receive “corrupts the very attitude of our giving nature.”
4. The “hundredfold return” is not a biblical concept. Hagin did the math and figured out that if this bizarre notion were true, “we would have Christians walking around with not billions or trillions of dollars, but quadrillions of dollars!” He rejected the popular teaching that a believer should claim a specific monetary payback rate.
5. Preachers who claim to have a “debt-breaking” anointing should not be trusted. Hagin was perplexed by ministers who promise “supernatural debt cancellation” to those who give in certain offerings. He wrote in The Midas Touch: “There is not one bit of Scripture I know about that validates such a practice. I’m afraid it is simply a scheme to raise money for the preacher, and ultimately it can turn out to be dangerous and destructive for all involved.”
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 3/19/2008 12:26:57 AM
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map4
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Here are some more things Kenneth Hagin said in "The Midas Touch"
It is important to realize that God is not against wealth and prospertiy. But He is against being covetous.
You must esteem the things of God - spiritual things - more than earthly things.
You cannot put earthly things above spiritual things and expect to prosper as God deisres you to.
Put God first, even before your own self.
Of course, a part of being willing and obedient is keeping your motives pure. God sees the heart of man, and He knows what attitueds are motivating him (I Samuel 16:7). God is not going to bless someone whose motives are impure.
We are the triumphant ones because of what Jesus did.
He simply wants us to keep our priorities straight.
He was saying tht giving money doesn't take the place of living right. God is not as interested in a person's money as He is in his heart.
Our motive and purpose for giving should be pure and unselfish. (He goes on to list 5 reasons to give...)# 5, the final, being "we should give in expectancy, believing God to honor the promies in His Word to bless and prosper us...It seems to me that many preachers are overemphasizing number five and presenting that as the major reason for people to give".
The danger is not in having money or things, but in becoming covetous.
I believe giving should be a conscious action that is done on purpose in a prayerful, thoughtful attitude.
A person's decision to give to God should never be something he will regret later.
So many of us are inveterate [firmly established] extremists. If we see any ray of truth we push it to such an extreme that our constant pressing of it becomes offensive, vain and at last erroneous. If we discover any successful line of ministry we run after it to such an extent that it becomes nauseating and exhausted. We are for ever missing geniune usefulness by our constant failure to keep well-balanced. In the end men lose confidence in us, our intemperance grieves the Holy Spirit, and we are cast upon the scrapheap of rejected and unprofitable servants.
But still more of us are in danger of missing a life of power by seeking to walk in monotonous middle-course that never ventures to an extreme at all.
Where, then, lies the way of Pentecostal truth that embraces a legitimate extremism and an essential balance? I can only reply that we need the extremist to start things moving, but we need the balanced teacher to keep them moving in the right direction. We need extremism for a miracle of healing, but we need balanced sanity for health. We need extreme fervor to launch a movement, but we need the repudiation of extremes to save it from self-destruction. Only a wisdom from above can reveal the perfect synthesis. It takes Pentecostal genius to know when and where an extreme doctrine or practice must be modified to a more balanced view; and where, on the other hand, the broad lines of truth must be temporarily narrowed into an exreme emphasis upon one point to ensure a dynamic powerful enough to move things for God. The possession of that uncommon genius marks the God-sent leader who has emerged in truly great periods of revival. 3 (Donald Gee, " Extremes are Sometimes Necessary," The Voice of Healing, April 1953, p. 9. Used by permission).
Not only should we as Christians apply biblical teaching and spiritual principles in our day-to-day living, but we also must not abandon practical wisdom and common sense.
The faith walk does not ignore the natural laws of the universe, which are actually God's laws.
Just because God can and does heal doesn't mean that we shouldn't use common sense in taking care of our bodies...Nor should a person with a disease stop his medical treatment and abandon all reason and common sense. It would be folly, not faith, for a person with diabetes to keep eating large quantities of starchy, sugary foods, saying that he was trusting God to heal him.
In the same sense, it would be ridiculous for people to try to "look prosperous" by buying all kinds of luxurious items and charging them to credit cards that already have payments they can't afford. "I believe God is going to provide the money to pay off my debts somehow, some way," they say. "I"m expecting a miracle blessing. Maybe He'll help me win the lottery!"
Obviously these people's expectations are based on mistaken understandings and wrong motives. There is no balance between faith and reality in their lives. With so little wisdom and spiritual discernment to draw upon, these people are easily deceived and let astray by misguided or unscrupulous religious promoters.
In teaching prosperity, too many preachers seem to communicate the idea that receiving financial abundance is totally and exclusively tied to one thing ----giving...usually to them! Don't misunderstand me. I believe in giving. I believe giving is important. But it is not the only key to prosperity.
Therefore, the proper attitude for giving is one of worshiip and gratitude.
Love must motivate the believers giving.
Giving is a "grace" that can be exercised in the midst of challenging circumstances. Giving is reflective of a life given to God and is rooted in the Person and example of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Ministers should be ethical and above reproach in their handling of church finances.
Paul sought peoples heart, not their money.
Paul advocated contentment, and denounced covetousness.
Believers are not to love or trust in money.
Believers in the early church considered their material possessions of much less value than their faith.
Exploitation of the poor by the rich is condemned.
God wants His children to prosper.
Every believer has been charged with the responsibility of helping to carry out the Great Commission - of preaching the Gospel in all the world and to every creature. We must either go ourselves or help send someone in our place. Either way requires significant resources. But going or sending is the true purpose of prosperity.
Often they get off track when their zeal exceeds their wisdom
Walking in the light of God's Word is what will keep you balanced in the area of prosperity and in every area of life.
< Message edited by map4 -- 3/19/2008 12:35:00 AM >
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 3/19/2008 12:49:45 AM
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Kat_D
Posts: 3131
Joined: 9/2/2005
From: Where We Shake, Rattle & Roll!
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Kat_D
quote:
ORIGINAL: bjay0801
Kenneth Hagin, who is believed to have started the WOF movement got together with some of the big time pastors of this day before he died and told them that they were very wrong concerning the way they have been preaching prosperity. He also said that if a person comes to you and says that they have an annointing break debt over you then run! His message concerning prosperity and the way it has been taught today is very different from what I understand.
Where did you hear this? Do you have a link/resource you can share? Inquiring minds want to know!
Again, I was asking for a link or resource that proved that Kenneth Hagin (the Father of the modern WOF Movement) got together with a group of pastors (or in other words had a meeting with a group of pastors) before he died and told them they were wrong to teach the prosperity doctrine.
_____________________________
~Kat
"...And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes...no more death, sorrow, nor crying."
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 3/19/2008 2:45:55 AM
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Propitiation
Posts: 73
Joined: 6/18/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Kat_D
quote:
ORIGINAL: Kat_D
quote:
ORIGINAL: bjay0801
Kenneth Hagin, who is believed to have started the WOF movement got together with some of the big time pastors of this day before he died and told them that they were very wrong concerning the way they have been preaching prosperity. He also said that if a person comes to you and says that they have an annointing break debt over you then run! His message concerning prosperity and the way it has been taught today is very different from what I understand.
Where did you hear this? Do you have a link/resource you can share? Inquiring minds want to know!
Again, I was asking for a link or resource that proved that Kenneth Hagin (the Father of the modern WOF Movement) got together with a group of pastors (or in other words had a meeting with a group of pastors) before he died and told them they were wrong to teach the prosperity doctrine.
Here is the gist of the meeting he had with certain higher up wof preachers. It wasnt a rebuke against prosperity teaching but against the misuses of it.
Hagin taught that God was not glorified by poverty and that preachers do not have to be poor. But before he died in 2003 and left his Rhema Bible Training Center in the hands of his son, Kenneth Hagin Jr., he summoned many of his colleagues to Tulsa to rebuke them for distorting his message. He was not happy that some of his followers were manipulating the Bible to support what he viewed as greed and selfish indulgence.
I used to be a wofer that was pretty familiar with rhema. I went to bible college in Tulsa at Victory Bible institute. It was full fledged word of faith teaching. I thank God that through His word and message boards like crosswalk he showed me His truth and freed me from its false teachings. It's been a hard struggle over coming but with God all things are possible. He who began a good work will finish it. Thank God for his grace and mercy.
< Message edited by Propitiation -- 3/19/2008 2:52:41 AM >
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 3/19/2008 8:06:30 AM
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earthless
Posts: 6276
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
Status: online
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God bless you, Propitiation.. praise Jesus your eyes have been opened to the lies of Word of Faith.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Word of Faith / Prosperity - One Stop Thread - 3/19/2008 5:11:29 PM
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Sammy_S
Posts: 557
Joined: 10/6/2007
From: Brampton,Ontario
Status: offline
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Propitiation
quote:
Hagin taught that God was not glorified by poverty and that preachers do not have to be poor.
Is that what he use to believe or that he still bellieved that when he died?If so,that is at worst,heresy.
So God is not glorified in the financial status of the faithful persucuted Christians in the 'Third World" countries?The apostles were not rich my any means.God is most glorified when we are most satisfied in him in the midst of adversity.
God is glorified in the life of a true believer and that is all.
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