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RE: Daniel's 70 Weeks: Part 1 - 5/11/2008 10:53:47 AM
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Midwest
Posts: 314
Joined: 10/19/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint
Oh, Sophronius said it? It must be true!
Give me a break.
Apparently you have misunderstood the point I was trying to make. The point was not we must accept it just because Sophronius said it, the point is that the Dome of the Rock being the Abomination that maketh Desolate is not a new theology. It's a truth that's been with the Church for over 1300 years, but somehow we have managed to forget the prophetic words of Sophronius, Bishop of the Jerusalem Church.
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Jesus said: "So when you see standing in the holy place..." (MT 24:15) "Holy place" as used in the Bible refers to the Inner Sanctum where the Ark of the Covenant was kept in Jeremiah's time.
Doesn't Daniel say the abomination would be on the overspreading?
Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
H3671 kânâph kaw-nawf' From H3670; an edge or extremity; specifically (of a bird or army) a wing, (of a garment or bed clothing) a flap, (of the earth) a quarter, (of a building) a pinnacle: - + bird, border, corner, end, feather [-ed], X flying, + (one an-) other, overspreading, X quarters, skirt, X sort, uttermost part, wing ([-ed]).
Not a big fan of the NIV but in ths case maybe it does a better job of translating this verse:
Dan9:27He will confirm a covenant with many for one seven. In the middle of the seven he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple; he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.NIV
Isn't the whole temple mount a holy place? Nothing in Scripture says the "holy place" has to be a future temple.
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Paul said: (2Th 2:3) "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. (4) He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God." That conforms to what Jesus said and it confirms reading "Holy Place" as a part of the Temple rather than the Temple Mount.
Why do you look to Paul for understanding about the abomination that makes desolate when in both Matthew and Mark, Jesus tells us to look to Daniel the prophet for help in understanding of the abomination that maketh desolate,not to Paul? What paul said in 2TH has no bearing on the location of the holy place Jesus was referring to. After the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ there is only one location for the temple of God and Paul who wrote the 2Th made it perfectly clear where the temple is.
1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
1Co 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are
2Co 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
The above three verses are not open to interpretation. Scripture offers no other option than our bodies as the location of the temple of God, through Christ's death and resurrection. Nowhere does the Lord redefine the term. To believe in a rebuilt temple where Jews would resume animal sacrifice would be a restoration of the Old Covenant and an affront to Jesus Christ and His perfect blood atonement for our sins (the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world). It would also fly in the face of scripture. A few examples:
Hebrews8:13In that he saith, A new [covenant], he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old [is] ready to vanish away.
Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Mark 12:33 And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love [his] neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.
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John wrote concerning the False Prophet based on what he saw in Heaven: (Rev 13:14) Because of the signs he was given power to do on behalf of the first beast, he deceived the inhabitants of the earth. He ordered them to set up an image in honor of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lived. 15 He was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that it could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed.
Rev 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
Rev 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
Rev 13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
Rev 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
Rev 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
Rev 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
Rev 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. KJV
The second beast that had "two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon." is the one that does this not the False prophet. If the false prophet said this please show the verse, the verse you quoted does not even mention the false prophet.
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The reason this Abomination - and the Bible speaks of idols as abominations - is so great to merit being in the plural in Daniel 9:27 is that this idol speaks! That is a first!
One does not have to have a voice to speak. Maybe it would help to see how the Jews have translated a few of the verses about the abomination in some versions of theTanach. ( the verses are links to the Tanach)
Dan9:27. And he will strengthen a covenant for the princes for one week, and half the week he will abolish sacrifice and meal- offering, and on high, among abominations, will be the dumb one, and until destruction and extermination befall the dumb one.
[Dan12:11. And from the time the daily sacrifice was removed and the silent abomination placed, is one thousand, two hundred, and ninety.
Both of these verses demonstrate that the abomination does not have a voice, but still the silent abomination, the dome of the rock speaks volumes with it's antichrist inscriptions.
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Really now... This is elementary. If you get this wrong, you're really going off in the wrong direction.
Yes it is elementary, and it is also quite possible that you are mistaken and are the one that is going off in the wrong direction,
< Message edited by Midwest -- 5/11/2008 11:02:15 AM >
_____________________________
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believeth;... Romans 1:16
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RE: Daniel's 70 Weeks: Part 1 - 5/11/2008 1:42:34 PM
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Sinner-Saint
Posts: 370
Joined: 10/5/2006
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Midwest
Apparently you have misunderstood the point I was trying to make. The point was not we must accept it just because Sophronius said it, the point is that the Dome of the Rock being the Abomination that maketh Desolate is not a new theology. It's a truth that's been with the Church for over 1300 years, but somehow we have managed to forget the prophetic words of Sophronius, Bishop of the Jerusalem Church.
Apparently again? Apparently nothing! I understood your point and I dismiss it as being not Biblically based. It is not even theology. It is one man's opinion which you now raise to level of Scripture (which it is not) by saying it's prophetic.
The Dome of the Rock is NOT the Abominations Desolator which comes quickly (on wing).
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RE: Daniel's 70 Weeks: Part 1 - 5/11/2008 1:50:22 PM
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Sinner-Saint
Posts: 370
Joined: 10/5/2006
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Midwest
Doesn't Daniel say the abomination would be on the overspreading?
No it doesn't. It says: "on wing, abominations, desolation" in quick order.
And the NIV does a terrible job rendering this phrase (on wing) as well interjecting a whole physical place which never existed and won't exist in the third Temple as Ezekiel witnessed John measuring.
The King James translators did get one thing right: 'on wing' is figurative. They erred in describing the quality a wing has with its ability to shelter. Wings are also strong muscles, but the one thing which a wing is like and this time is like is also described as coming like a flood: a wing is quick.
The Abomination will come quickly upon the world scene. After which as the time of the Great Tribulation comes at hand, nominal Christians will panic and look for Jesus in all the wrong places having just woken up and realized the anti-Christ is real and in their midst.
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RE: Daniel's 70 Weeks: Part 1 - 5/11/2008 2:00:03 PM
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Sinner-Saint
Posts: 370
Joined: 10/5/2006
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Midwest
Why do you look to Paul for understanding about the abomination that makes desolate when in both Matthew and Mark, Jesus tells us to look to Daniel the prophet for help in understanding of the abomination that maketh desolate,not to Paul?
Why would Jesus have said to look to a writing that wouldn't have existed for almost 20 years?
Paul's first letters come after Jesus' teaching, and they are strongly eschatological, Thessalonians being his starting point chronologically.
Paul has been taught about the end-times by someone who was translated to the third Heaven of God's presence; ostensibly John in my opinion because they were contemporaries and would have overlapped in area as well.
Thus Paul clarifies what Jesus said.
If you cannot incorporate Paul's teachings in 1st and 2nd Thessalonians, your eschaotology is fundamentally flawed.
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RE: Daniel's 70 Weeks: Part 1 - 5/11/2008 2:06:48 PM
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Sinner-Saint
Posts: 370
Joined: 10/5/2006
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Midwest
The second beast that had "two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon." is the one that does this not the False prophet. If the false prophet said this please show the verse, the verse you quoted does not even mention the false prophet.
This is getting silly.
The anti-Christ and the False Prophet are the two beasts where each person is a beast of a man which literally describes them better in God's view than any other label.
It is these two who act in tandem with each other to erect the Abomination (I don't care a whit about what you get from some pointedly Jewish source which takes away from Scripture by adding words).
It is these two who are captured alive at the final battle of the one 'seven:' Armageddon.
I don't think you're anywhere near the right path to discerning what is in God's Word concerning the end-times as of yet.
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