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RE: James Goll and John Paul Jackson - 4/7/2008 7:00:51 AM
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FurGodWurLivin
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Ah..... I'm reminded of an old Lawyer's adage......... When the Law is on your side, pound on the Law. When the Facts are on your side, pound on the Facts. When neither are on your side, pound on the Table.
Adam
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I am hyena, Jesus is my Mufasa...
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RE: James Goll and John Paul Jackson - 4/11/2008 1:03:18 AM
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Mysticweeping
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i just want to clarify, that when I was refering to signs and wonders following those who love Jesus, I was NOT giving a free for all that all signs and wonders are from God.
Signs and wonders can also come about through means that are not through Christ, to which we are called to test all things, however, I refered to People who LOVE Jesus because Some people do not beleive miracles exist today, in which I whole heartedly beleive that if miracles do not exist, salvation does not either, to take a sinner, and make him a saint..that is no small miracle! haha.
In any regard, those who are against these teachers are not going to change their tune through rationalization. Rational and reason/logic thinking is not the driving force of the kingdom of heaven. If that were true, the Bible is full of examples of irrational behavours from people who loved God, who acted in simple obedience to Godm thus if irrational was not christian, christianity would not align with the BIble, making it an abomination. The strange and unusual sums up the entirity of scripture. That is not to say that just because something is strange and unusual it is from God.
I think that most of the religious world would really be much better off if they lost their christianity and religion and found Jesus. Jesus ..is so much different than the christian world.. is it any wonder people want nothing to do with christianity?
I think that so many christians who search after all the little facts about what major named people are saying and what is God and what isn't should really just evaluate what their purpose in doing so is.
If the holy spirit that resides in them, to bring about the understanding of the word to their minds, is also in other beleivers..then that same holy spirit residing in other beleivers could reveal the truth to the others..
the problem is, the divisions and discord happen, because most christians have divorced themselves from the HOLY SPIRIT, and from JESUS himself.
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RE: James Goll and John Paul Jackson - 4/11/2008 10:10:10 AM
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wintery
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mysticweeping
I think that so many christians who search after all the little facts about what major named people are saying and what is God and what isn't should really just evaluate what their purpose in doing so is.
Aberrant teachers and prophets who market themselves and promote personal "revelations" are the ones who should evaluate themselves.
"Oh Grandmother...What a big _dream_ you had!" -(very) Little (Bible) "Read" Riding Hood.
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RE: James Goll and John Paul Jackson - 4/11/2008 10:25:59 AM
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lw9
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quote:
I think that so many christians who search after all the little facts about what major named people are saying and what is God and what isn't should really just evaluate what their purpose in doing so is.
1. To follow the Bible's command to discern through scripture. This is part of loving God, loving His word, remaining faithful to Him, and avoiding deception.
2. To warn others away from dangerous false teaching because we care about them.
The issues brought up here have not been 'little facts' but rather major errors.
quote:
however, I refered to People who LOVE Jesus because Some people do not beleive miracles exist today...
If people truly love Jesus, then they will obey His commands and His words and teach truthfully. They will not lie [falsely prophesy], they will not twist scripture, they will not continue to teach falsehoods and lead people astray. Someone who does those things shows no real love for Jesus. It's just empty lip service.
quote:
If the holy spirit that resides in them, to bring about the understanding of the word to their minds, is also in other beleivers..then that same holy spirit residing in other beleivers could reveal the truth to the others..
JPJ has already made clear that he doesn't have a true understanding of the Word, and this has been proven out over and over again in this thread. His understanding rests on a platform of New Age & mystic thought, shameless self-justification, lack of repentance, false teaching, and false prophecies. Along with this he offers up alleged 'revelatory knowledge' and 'spiritual advancement' for a price. These things are not the mark of a man of God, and we have been told many times over what to do with false teachers and false prophets: Reject them.
< Message edited by lw9 -- 4/11/2008 1:26:09 PM >
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RE: James Goll and John Paul Jackson - 4/11/2008 12:52:49 PM
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SD456
Posts: 1505
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mysticweeping
i just want to clarify, that when I was refering to signs and wonders following those who love Jesus, I was NOT giving a free for all that all signs and wonders are from God.
Signs and wonders can also come about through means that are not through Christ, to which we are called to test all things, however, I refered to People who LOVE Jesus because Some people do not beleive miracles exist today, in which I whole heartedly beleive that if miracles do not exist, salvation does not either, to take a sinner, and make him a saint..that is no small miracle! haha.
In any regard, those who are against these teachers are not going to change their tune through rationalization. Rational and reason/logic thinking is not the driving force of the kingdom of heaven. If that were true, the Bible is full of examples of irrational behavours from people who loved God, who acted in simple obedience to Godm thus if irrational was not christian, christianity would not align with the BIble, making it an abomination. The strange and unusual sums up the entirity of scripture. That is not to say that just because something is strange and unusual it is from God.
I think that most of the religious world would really be much better off if they lost their christianity and religion and found Jesus. Jesus ..is so much different than the christian world.. is it any wonder people want nothing to do with christianity?
I think that so many christians who search after all the little facts about what major named people are saying and what is God and what isn't should really just evaluate what their purpose in doing so is.
If the holy spirit that resides in them, to bring about the understanding of the word to their minds, is also in other beleivers..then that same holy spirit residing in other beleivers could reveal the truth to the others..
the problem is, the divisions and discord happen, because most christians have divorced themselves from the HOLY SPIRIT, and from JESUS himself.
Excellent post, mystic. Very true that we often play the Holy Spirit and discern things very incorrectly in other people and call people false who are not, they are simply LOVERS of Jesus. And John Paul is one of the most Jesus-filled men I've ever met. Humble, meek, recognizing his own faults and short-comings, a man of great faith who has openly apologized if he felt he got something wrong, walks in grace and mercy, preaches Jesus everywhere he goes. His life definately bears the fruit of the Holy Spirit.
Strange, wild, unusual, very definately sums up the entirety of the bible. I just love that about God, that He challenges us out of our comfort zones and into a realm where the unbelievable actually happens and the invisible can become visible.
God is truly awesome. Following Jesus is an exciting thing when we get to know ALL of who He is and experience ALL that He offers to His children. It's nver boring.
< Message edited by SD456 -- 4/11/2008 1:01:53 PM >
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RE: James Goll and John Paul Jackson - 4/11/2008 1:38:45 PM
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wintery
Posts: 890
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Matthew 28:18-20
18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age." (NIV)
I see a contrast between Jesus's instructions to preach the good news, repentance, forgiveness of sins, and the new apostolic/prophetic/latter rainers.
Now here's a litte James W. "Jim" Goll from his own website:http://www.encountersnetwork.com/email_blasts/nov_2006_anatomy.htm
Goll says:
"When all of these wisdom perimeters are put in place, let’s create an atmosphere of faith and ask the Holy Spirit to move freely. Let us not err on the side of “license”, nor on the side by “stifling” the Holy Spirit’s presence and power."
"let's create an atmosphere of faith"-- Or, let's get everyone to anticipate together so they'll be sure to buy into it.
"not err on the side of license"--brother, if Toronto and Brownsville aren't examples of "the side of license", I don't know what could qualify. "License" indicates going too far--and that could simply be "getting" a single "word" and taking it as your guide or foundation.
"stifling"--we are _stifling discernment_ by ignoring what God has given us in the Scriptures and looking to men (and women) to see if they've got something more for us.
2 Peter 1:20-21 gives us an understanding of Biblical prophecy:
20Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation. 21For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.
Which will it be? "Let's follow Christ" or "Let's try to get a word"? There is a difference between drawing near to God (as in James 4:8) and the pursuit of direct revelation.
Jeremiah 23:36
But you must not mention 'the oracle of the LORD ' again, because every man's own word becomes his oracle and so you distort the words of the living God, the LORD Almighty, our God.
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RE: James Goll and John Paul Jackson - 4/11/2008 1:41:15 PM
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earthless
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As for me and my house, we shall serve (follow) the Lord.
These men are puffed up with dangerous ignorance and manipulation.
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RE: James Goll and John Paul Jackson - 4/11/2008 9:38:31 PM
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lw9
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quote:
prophetica: In fact, a time is coming when anyone who kills you will think he is offering a service to God. Jesus spoke regarding the 'heretic' hunting of some Churches that have occurred in the past and alluded to what would happen under the false worldly prophet called the antichrist.
Since we are talking about testing and rejecting false teachers in this thread, which many view as heretic hunting, are you saying that people like earthless, wintery, sue244, soxfan, myself, etc. are going to kill others in the name of God?
If so, then don't beat around the bush. If not, then you need to explain further because I honestly don't know what you are alluding to.
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RE: James Goll and John Paul Jackson - 4/12/2008 12:39:58 PM
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cybrjewls
Posts: 1390
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LOL!!
"There is no work better than to please God; to pour water, to wash dishes, to be a cobbler, or an apostle, all are one; to wash dishes and to preach are all one, as touching the deed, to please God."
--William Tyndale
If all are one, what makes prophesying better or worse that anyone else? Why seek to hunt down people who may, potentially, have a gift? We know that each of us will be Judged on Judgment Day in accordance with the measure that we use to others. Therefore, if someone speaks about God some say they are not accountable for their words at the pulpit. Every 'preacher' and 'teacher' needs to be held to the testing for everything said at the pulpit in the same way, then, that some hold 'prophets' to these cherished standards. This includes everyone, equally. Yet, we are to hold on to what was good is written.
quote:
ORIGINAL: wintery
Dear prophetica/prophetic/.prophetic./.john./.....,
What kind of a trip do you think certain Christians are on when they want to do a free-form improv act on what is a message from God?
Looking at the link I posted above, Goll teaches that some "prophecies" have been called false because of a wrong interpretation. That is a trap that can cause an endless search for fulfillment of utterances that may be poetic in and of themselves or even if not, continually allegorized and reworked to fit some situation to make the prophet look valid. Someone should say no to this.
Goll and JPJ are both into dreams. Puh-leeze, can't any half-skilled writer make up a meaning that sounds spiritual for nearly anything. The dogwood and the sand dollar come to mind.
Thanks for your input. I'm sure we all need to be reminded not to be the antichrist.  Thanks.
quote:
ORIGINAL: .....
In fact, a time is coming when anyone who kills you will think he is offering a service to God. Jesus spoke regarding the 'heretic' hunting of some Churches (Catholic, Calvin...) that have occurred in the past and alluding to what would happen under the false worldly prophet called the antichrist.
Nero killed the Christians because of burning Rome, not to offer service to a 'god' necessarily. Not by works some say, by The Spirit The One said.
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
As for me and my house, we shall serve (follow) the Lord.
These men are puffed up with dangerous ignorance and manipulation.
< Message edited by ..... -- 4/12/2008 12:53:10 PM >
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RE: James Goll and John Paul Jackson - 4/12/2008 1:52:43 PM
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wintery
Posts: 890
Joined: 2/1/2007
From: nw alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: .....
LOL!!
"There is no work better than to please God; to pour water, to wash dishes, to be a cobbler, or an apostle, all are one; to wash dishes and to preach are all one, as touching the deed, to please God."
--William Tyndale
If all are one, what makes prophesying better or worse that anyone else?
A prophet is saying "Here is God's word". Anyone can claim a god speaks through them. It should not be considered frivolous when we know that to falsely prophesy displeases God.
quote:
ORIGINAL: .....
Why seek to hunt down people who may, potentially, have a gift?
No need to hunt, brother. They advertise.
quote:
ORIGINAL: .....
We know that each of us will be Judged on Judgment Day in accordance with the measure that we use to others.
Yeah, we'd better watch what we say and what our motives are.
quote:
ORIGINAL: .....
Therefore, if someone speaks about God some say they are not accountable for their words at the pulpit. Every 'preacher' and 'teacher' needs to be held to the testing for everything said at the pulpit in the same way, then, that some hold 'prophets' to these cherished standards. This includes everyone, equally. Yet, we are to hold on to what was good is written.
A "plain" sermon or teaching, minus the prophetic trappings, must also be true to the word of God.
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RE: James Goll and John Paul Jackson - 4/12/2008 5:18:44 PM
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cybrjewls
Posts: 1390
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Dear wintery! I would like to ask your forgiveness for anything that I might have said that was improper to you. Please accept my apology as I am still in the continual 'working' out of the faith in the midst of a lot of issues that have arisen in my life.
quote:
ORIGINAL: wintery
quote:
ORIGINAL: .....
LOL!!
"There is no work better than to please God; to pour water, to wash dishes, to be a cobbler, or an apostle, all are one; to wash dishes and to preach are all one, as touching the deed, to please God."
--William Tyndale
If all are one, what makes prophesying better or worse that anyone else?
A prophet is saying "Here is God's word". Anyone can claim a god speaks through them. It should not be considered frivolous when we know that to falsely prophesy displeases God.
quote:
ORIGINAL: .....
Why seek to hunt down people who may, potentially, have a gift?
No need to hunt, brother. They advertise.
quote:
ORIGINAL: .....
We know that each of us will be Judged on Judgment Day in accordance with the measure that we use to others.
Yeah, we'd better watch what we say and what our motives are.
quote:
ORIGINAL: .....
Therefore, if someone speaks about God some say they are not accountable for their words at the pulpit. Every 'preacher' and 'teacher' needs to be held to the testing for everything said at the pulpit in the same way, then, that some hold 'prophets' to these cherished standards. This includes everyone, equally. Yet, we are to hold on to what was good is written.
A "plain" sermon or teaching, minus the prophetic trappings, must also be true to the word of God.
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RE: James Goll and John Paul Jackson - 4/12/2008 5:21:16 PM
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cybrjewls
Posts: 1390
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Dearest disciples of Christ! I would like to ask your forigiveness for anything that I might have said that was improper to you. Please accept my apology as I am still in the continual 'working' out of the faith in the midst of a lot of issues that have arisen in my life. I am continually being saved (present continual action) going forward every day as I struggle with the darkness of this present world and other issues that I have trouble dealing with at times.
I was just thinking that some of the 'heretic' hunting that has occurred across the ages were fruit for satan, at times, rather than loving their neighbors as The One teaches us to do.
quote:
ORIGINAL: lw9
quote:
prophetica: In fact, a time is coming when anyone who kills you will think he is offering a service to God. Jesus spoke regarding the 'heretic' hunting of some Churches that have occurred in the past and alluded to what would happen under the false worldly prophet called the antichrist.
Since we are talking about testing and rejecting false teachers in this thread, which many view as heretic hunting, are you saying that people like earthless, wintery, sue244, soxfan, myself, etc. are going to kill others in the name of God?
If so, then don't beat around the bush. If not, then you need to explain further because I honestly don't know what you are alluding to.
< Message edited by ..... -- 4/13/2008 3:07:51 PM >
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RE: James Goll and John Paul Jackson - 4/14/2008 9:52:56 AM
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wintery
Posts: 890
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From: nw alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: .....
Dear wintery! I would like to ask your forgiveness for anything that I might have said that was improper to you. Please accept my apology as I am still in the continual 'working' out of the faith in the midst of a lot of issues that have arisen in my life.
Not necessary. There is nothing improper about a discussion. Thanks.
Peace.
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RE: James Goll and John Paul Jackson - 4/14/2008 10:44:13 AM
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earthless
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God bless you prophetica, .john., .prophetica, .....
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RE: James Goll and John Paul Jackson - 4/14/2008 10:44:49 AM
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lw9
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No worries, prophetica.
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RE: James Goll and John Paul Jackson - 4/15/2008 4:29:34 PM
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wintery
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Goll-eee!
Looking at Goll's latest "word" from the Elijah List, he says, "One of the most consistent ways that the Lord speaks to me is through "dreams."
In dreamland virtually anything goes, like this: "Then something like a giant, heavenly can opener came down from above and cut a huge hole in the stone roof."
After wading through it, Goll says after he woke up he "did feel a word dropped inside" of him...oh, yes, "the feeling dimension was very alive!" in his dream.
Of course his dream and teaching is right on because: "I think the Lord had some divine commentary to add to my word."
With those words Goll gives himself an endorsement...from God...on his dreams...including a giant can opener.
Goll sums it up by telling his readers to: "Get into Kingdom alignment for such a time as this." I've reproduced the bold and italics that are in the original article. Interestingly, not too far from where I live, there is a ministry called Kingdom Alignment.
In the bookstore on the website you'll find several books by (surprise, surprise)...James W. Goll.
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RE: James Goll and John Paul Jackson - 4/15/2008 4:31:19 PM
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earthless
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From: where bbq pigeons roast....
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Always follow the money trail.....
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RE: James Goll and John Paul Jackson - 4/15/2008 5:24:47 PM
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themoodyexperience
Posts: 121
Joined: 3/19/2008
From: Tuscumbia, Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: wintery
Goll sums it up by telling his readers to: "Get into Kingdom alignment for such a time as this." I've reproduced the bold and italics that are in the original article. Interestingly, not too far from where I live, there is a ministry called Kingdom Alignment.
In the bookstore on the website you'll find several books by (surprise, surprise)...James W. Goll.
Kingdom Alignment? Sounds like an auto shop. "where you get your kingdom aligned and your doctrine rotated for free". Goll-eee, sarge.
_____________________________
If you question what I'm teaching you
You rebel against the Father too.
- Steve Taylor from "I Manipulate"
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RE: James Goll and John Paul Jackson - 4/15/2008 5:35:13 PM
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earthless
Posts: 4750
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From: where bbq pigeons roast....
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quote:
ORIGINAL: themoodyexperience
quote:
ORIGINAL: wintery
Goll sums it up by telling his readers to: "Get into Kingdom alignment for such a time as this." I've reproduced the bold and italics that are in the original article. Interestingly, not too far from where I live, there is a ministry called Kingdom Alignment.
In the bookstore on the website you'll find several books by (surprise, surprise)...James W. Goll.
Kingdom Alignment? Sounds like an auto shop. "where you get your kingdom aligned and your doctrine rotated for free". Goll-eee, sarge.
Or where so and so can impart their anointing to you for $$$$$..
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: James Goll and John Paul Jackson - 4/15/2008 5:43:02 PM
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lw9
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Why is it I can only find 5 direct dreams from God given to people [and 4 of those 5 were to Joseph] in the NT, yet the Elijah list guys and gals manage to have these dreams right and left.
The NT dreams were very straightforward, like "Joseph... escape to Egypt!". Yeah, not real difficult to understand by the one having the dream. Yet the Elijah's list folks are always having grandiose 'prophetic' dreams which sound like they came straight from a new age conference or a psychic hotline and resemble nothing close to a Biblical dream.
Why is that.
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Aperture Science. We do what we must because we can.
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RE: James Goll and John Paul Jackson - 4/16/2008 12:32:47 PM
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wintery
Posts: 890
Joined: 2/1/2007
From: nw alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lw9
Yet the Elijah's list folks are always having grandiose 'prophetic' dreams which sound like they came straight from a new age conference or a psychic hotline and resemble nothing close to a Biblical dream.
Why is that.
And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God.... --Deuteronomy 13:5
It is difficult to find the words to explain how a "dreamer" can "turn you away from the LORD your God" while telling you how they are all about God. lw9, as you point out, some of these folks "sound like they came straight from a new age conference or a psychic hotline"--so what are they really doing?
First, they are deceived themselves, as evidenced by their idea of "ministry", the idea that the Christian life is a state of drifting awash in a sea of prophetic dreams and utterances that really result in nothing but more prophetic pronouncements, conferences to attend, training to pay for, cd's, dvd's, and books to buy. How does this happen? How do they arrive to this state? Look at Ezekiel 14:5-9.
14:7 For every one of the house of Israel, or of the stranger that sojourneth in Israel, which separateth himself from me, and setteth up his idols in his heart, and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to a prophet to enquire of him concerning me; I the LORD will answer him by myself:
Having idols in your heart is a serious problem. Wanting the fame, the money from selling a hundred thousand or a million copies of a book, the importance of being someone that others look up to as a hearer of God--all are "stumbling blocks of iniquity".
The seekers that would inquire of such a prophet have failed to discern that they do not have the word of the Lord. The seeker and prophet together have sought to become what others get saved from! Just as we cannot decide to do our will in his name, we cannot decide that God shall be what we want to seek.
Rather than depend on the word of God and prayer, they become seekers of the supernatural--I'm not sure how else to say it. Certainly becoming a Christian, a spiritual person in relationship with God is "supernatural"--but the seeking of the supernatural as we see in the new apostolic/prophetic movement is not the seeking of God we see in the Bible. The word of God and prayer--where have I heard that?
Acts 6:4 But we will give ourselves continually to prayer, and to the ministry of the word.
1 Timothy 4:5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.
There has been a giving up of seeking God through the word of God and prayer and a turning away to seek personalities and pizazz, prophecies and products, and poster-pumped conferences.
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RE: James Goll and John Paul Jackson - 4/16/2008 1:08:51 PM
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lw9
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Could not agree more, my friend wintery! Great post.
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