Is this a marriage in God's eyes? (Full Version)

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Knolt -> Is this a marriage in God's eyes? (3/9/2008 5:45:03 PM)

Let's a man and a woman decide to get married. the sexual rejection of the woman rejecting the man is total and to the point of the marriage not being consummated. after six months the woman tells the man she never really loved him. the woman decides to leave him. Does God see that as a marriage? One that is not even consummated? Is the man in this case spiritually released and then free to remarry?



lostsomuch -> RE: Is this a marriage in God's eyes? (3/9/2008 5:59:17 PM)

I don't know if it is the end all be all - that is God.. but from what I have read, Marriage is a covenant. A covenant is an agreement made by the parties, broken only by death. A covenant marriage is not just between the husband and wife but between the husband, wife and God so yes, it's still a marriage, i would think because its still a covenant between the three. The question comes in when you take into account the passages which talk about: "the two shall become one flesh" and I don't know if that references the physical union as it sounds, or if it means more than that, but also just the "joining of these two together in the bond of holy matrimony".

However, it sounds like the woman might be an unbeliever. If that is the case, it is my understanding that if she leaves, he is no long bound "if the unbeliever leaves, he is no longer bound" and that whatever is "loosed on earth is loosed in heaven and whatever is bound on earth is bound in heaven". So, it is my understanding that you would be free at that point.

Please don't take me as the authority. I would suggest speaking to a good bible believing pastor, and some other Christians about it.

I am so very sorry you are going through this. Many of us here are hurting, but I just wish no one else had to. :(

Hang in there..



peace77 -> RE: Is this a marriage in God's eyes? (3/9/2008 6:19:06 PM)

In most states a marriage that was never consummated can be annulled.

That is, to not consummate a marriage is fraudulent and can be annulled or cancelled.

In the eyes of the law, it is as if you were never married.
God expects us to follow the laws of the land.


Peace,
Anne



evryknee -> RE: Is this a marriage in God's eyes? (3/9/2008 6:21:07 PM)

I agree with losingsomuch - and it also sounds to me like there are other issues that should be addressed if there is going to be any hope. Is she willing to go to counseling? Has there been abuse that she has not talked about, repressed, or other. This is often one of the reasons why marriages are not consummated on the honeymoon. Maybe her lack of "love feelings" is more about protecting herself from going there (abuse). Meanwhile, keep the faith - Rom 8:28-29



GregandJenny -> RE: Is this a marriage in God's eyes? (3/9/2008 9:37:11 PM)

quote:

but from what I have read, Marriage is a covenant. A covenant is an agreement made by the parties, broken only by death.


What was their covenant, to each other and to God?



TMeeks -> RE: Is this a marriage in God's eyes? (3/9/2008 9:49:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Knolt

Let's a man and a woman decide to get married. the sexual rejection of the woman rejecting the man is total and to the point of the marriage not being consummated. after six months the woman tells the man she never really loved him. the woman decides to leave him. Does God see that as a marriage? One that is not even consummated? Is the man in this case spiritually released and then free to remarry?

How could two people be declared 'One Flesh' if they have not consumated their marriage union? She never loved the man? I'm a firm believer that the vows that people say to each other and before are serious business. But, her so-called 'vow' appears to be closer to having perpetrated a fraud!

I'd simply annul the marriage and move on.

Some people are more in love with the idea of the wedding than they are in the partner they are marrying.



draexo -> RE: Is this a marriage in God's eyes? (3/9/2008 9:57:40 PM)

Yes, it is a marriage. Marriage should not be entered into lightly. The only "out" is if the wife was an unbeliever and has. Then the husband, if he is a believer, is no longer bound. If they are both believers, they are still married.
I would not want to be either of them.



Knolt -> RE: Is this a marriage in God's eyes? (3/10/2008 12:29:44 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: draexo

Yes, it is a marriage. Marriage should not be entered into lightly. The only "out" is if the wife was an unbeliever and has. Then the husband, if he is a believer, is no longer bound. If they are both believers, they are still married.
I would not want to be either of them.

It is? even though it's not consummated?



soundDRwife -> RE: Is this a marriage in God's eyes? (3/10/2008 12:58:02 AM)

If you and your wife went to a Court House applied for a marriage license and stood in front of a judge, a notary republic(some court house use them to perform ceremony), or a church and stood in front of a preacher and the two of you said vows in front of the person performing ceremony and God then the license was signed by the person performing the ceremony and that paper was sent in to the court house then yes you are married.Even in God's eyes. Now what happens behind close doors then that your business. Sorry to hear about your situation.Can't offer any advice.But I can pray for you.



GregandJenny -> RE: Is this a marriage in God's eyes? (3/10/2008 10:56:37 AM)

quote:

I'm a firm believer that the vows that people say to each other and before are serious business.


What did this couple vow. Nowadays people don't always have the traditional wedding vows as we know it.

Is this a marriage? I think one could probably get in annulled.

GH



deermousie -> RE: Is this a marriage in God's eyes? (3/10/2008 12:03:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lostsomuch
The question comes in when you take into account the passages which talk about: "the two shall become one flesh" and I don't know if that references the physical union as it sounds


Yes, historically the Church has agreed that this means sexual intercourse.

quote:

However, it sounds like the woman might be an unbeliever. If that is the case, it is my understanding that if she leaves, he is no long bound "if the unbeliever leaves, he is no longer bound"


This is true. 1 Cor. 7:15 .

The Catholic Church takes the stand that an unconsummated marriage is fraudulent and can be annulled, and I think they are on good ground in saying that. "They shall become one flesh" never happened.

Certainly they need counseling. It sounds like the woman is already "gone" but the poor guy could use the support of a good counselor. I feel so sorry for him; it's like a death. Certainly death of a dream.



TMeeks -> RE: Is this a marriage in God's eyes? (3/10/2008 1:42:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GregandJenny

quote:

I'm a firm believer that the vows that people say to each other and before are serious business.


What did this couple vow. Nowadays people don't always have the traditional wedding vows as we know it.

Is this a marriage? I think one could probably get in annulled.

GH

Good question. We don't know, do we?



TMeeks -> RE: Is this a marriage in God's eyes? (3/10/2008 1:51:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: soundDRwife

If you and your wife went to a Court House applied for a marriage license and stood in front of a judge, a notary republic(some court house use them to perform ceremony), or a church and stood in front of a preacher and the two of you said vows in front of the person performing ceremony and God then the license was signed by the person performing the ceremony and that paper was sent in to the court house then yes you are married.Even in God's eyes. Now what happens behind close doors then that your business. Sorry to hear about your situation.Can't offer any advice.But I can pray for you.

I think the real question is whether or not this was a genuine marriage in the spiritual sense and not in the legal sense, since it was being asked in a Christian forum.

The closest thing we have to a definitive example is the deception that was foisted on Jacob with Leah. But, in that case the marriage WAS consummated before Jacob learned of the treachery.

If marriage is to be a true covenent by two people before God than it must be HONESTLY entered into by both parties. In this case, it was not. To hold that a person has to be held to a fraudulant, unconsummated marriage is akin to Pharasees not wanting Jesus to heal on the Sabbath!

As Jesus answered that the Sabbath was made for man and not man made for the Sabbath, so too it is that marriage is made for man and not man made for marriage.



Knolt -> RE: Is this a marriage in God's eyes? (3/10/2008 3:41:58 PM)

I really think only a hard core legalist would say the man isn't free to remarry in this case.



draexo -> RE: Is this a marriage in God's eyes? (3/10/2008 4:13:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Knolt

quote:

ORIGINAL: draexo

Yes, it is a marriage. Marriage should not be entered into lightly. The only "out" is if the wife was an unbeliever and has. Then the husband, if he is a believer, is no longer bound. If they are both believers, they are still married.
I would not want to be either of them.

It is? even though it's not consummated?

Yes, it is a marriage, even though unconsummated. It counts. Does anyone disagree? If so why?
If the wife has left then the husband is no longer bound.

I guess I am saying I do not believe in annulments!



Eliana -> RE: Is this a marriage in God's eyes? (3/10/2008 4:27:34 PM)

I've been thinking on and off about this question all day. While I can see how consummation is an extremely important element, I keep remembering the story of Joseph and Mary in the Bible (see Matthew 1:19).

They had not had intercourse and Mary was pregnant by the Holy Spirit. In order to dissolve their union, Joseph needed to divorce her. Doesn't that mean that the betrothal ceremony/traditions they had gone through meant something very real in God's eyes? I'm inclined to believe that if one has taken marital vows, one is married. The fact that the marriage was never consummated gives one perhaps special grounds to end the marriage, but it's still a marriage.



GregandJenny -> RE: Is this a marriage in God's eyes? (3/10/2008 7:32:55 PM)

quote:

They had not had intercourse and Mary was pregnant by the Holy Spirit. In order to dissolve their union, Joseph needed to divorce her.


I didn't think Joseph and Mary were married.

Luke 1 states that

In the sixth month, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin's name was Mary. Again inthe second chapter it talks about Mary being pledged to Joseph.

I don't believe that they were married at the time of the Holy Spirit's impregnating Mary, were they?

GH



W.O.F. -> RE: Is this a marriage in God's eyes? (3/10/2008 9:52:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GregandJenny

quote:

They had not had intercourse and Mary was pregnant by the Holy Spirit. In order to dissolve their union, Joseph needed to divorce her.


I didn't think Joseph and Mary were married.

Luke 1 states that

In the sixth month, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin's name was Mary. Again inthe second chapter it talks about Mary being pledged to Joseph.

I don't believe that they were married at the time of the Holy Spirit's impregnating Mary, were they?

GH

a Betrothal in those days was a legally binding as marriage and could not be broken without a divorce. Not an ending of the engagement, but a divorce.

The wedding supper/celebration was the ceremony of the groom collecting his wife (although their marriage was not consumated) and vowing in public those vows and promises already made in the presence of God, a priest/rabbi and the parents of both parties.

so...while they were not techinically married, breaking that pledge was seen as serious as breaking a marriage..and required the same legal/religious rites.



Hislittleone -> RE: Is this a marriage in God's eyes? (3/10/2008 10:21:50 PM)

She could be considered an unbeliever (who wants to leave) thereby releasing him from the marriage. Also, I'm assuming he was not aware that there would be no sexual intimacy in the marriage so this could be considered a fraudulent marriage. If she was having physical difficulty (i.e disease, pain during intimacy or any other disablement) that prevented her from having sex the that is a different case than her just not wanting to. But I just don't think that a marriage where one is defrauded by the other and there's no consumation is a true marriage. [&:]



sunofone -> RE: Is this a marriage in God's eyes? (3/10/2008 10:41:11 PM)

I don't think we can have it both ways here.One could say we are married in Gods eyes by shacking up and being considered commonlaw,and no doubt we would all say nonsense to that and require that a persons marriage be recognized legally.

So if we require that a marriage be legally recognized,then a marriage must be consummated in order to be validated legally.The absence of this requirement allows for annulment under the law so in fact this marriage would have been fraudulent.

In which case the oath would have been entered into dishonestly therefore not valid. Even God swore by himself when he could find none greater when he entered into an oath with man.The oath has to be genuine in order to be validated.It is clear in this case it was not.

So on all counts this is not a valid marriage.



georgerobbyjr -> RE: Is this a marriage in God's eyes? (3/10/2008 11:27:56 PM)

quote:

In most states a marriage that was never consummated can be annulled.

That is, to not consummate a marriage is fraudulent and can be annulled or cancelled.

In the eyes of the law, it is as if you were never married.
God expects us to follow the laws of the land.


Peace,
Anne


I agree with this. God intended for the man and woman to become one. How can they be one without consummating the marriage?



lastblast -> RE: Is this a marriage in God's eyes? (3/11/2008 12:14:50 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: draexo
Yes, it is a marriage, even though unconsummated. It counts. Does anyone disagree? If so why?
If the wife has left then the husband is no longer bound.

I guess I am saying I do not believe in annulments!


Yes, it is a marriage (if both parties were FREE to be married(no divorces)). As for the "no longer bound", the scripture says such a person is not under bondage. It does not mean the marriage is dissolved.

As for annulments, the only annulment that can be honored by God is when two people enter into an unlawful marriage to begin with. If they haven't, then their marriage commitment to each other stands in the sight of God............until one of them dies.



keepitreal -> RE: Is this a marriage in God's eyes? (3/11/2008 2:58:38 PM)

It appears that this marriage was entered into with one party having only the intent to deceive, and not live as a married person. I personally think you should talk to a trusted pastor about the possibility of annullment (something I would rarely recommend.) This doesn't look to me like a marriage.



Eliana -> RE: Is this a marriage in God's eyes? (3/11/2008 2:58:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GregandJenny

I don't believe that they were married at the time of the Holy Spirit's impregnating Mary, were they?

GH


W.O.F. answered this very well. Joseph and Mary were betrothed and had not had intercourse yet. Despite this, they had something very real in God's eyes which they could not just walk away from.



TMeeks -> RE: Is this a marriage in God's eyes? (3/11/2008 6:52:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Eliana

I've been thinking on and off about this question all day. While I can see how consummation is an extremely important element, I keep remembering the story of Joseph and Mary in the Bible (see Matthew 1:19).

They had not had intercourse and Mary was pregnant by the Holy Spirit. In order to dissolve their union, Joseph needed to divorce her. Doesn't that mean that the betrothal ceremony/traditions they had gone through meant something very real in God's eyes? I'm inclined to believe that if one has taken marital vows, one is married. The fact that the marriage was never consummated gives one perhaps special grounds to end the marriage, but it's still a marriage.

Yes. It DOES mean something. But, you seem to have missed that Joseph had every right to divorce her. He simply chose not to. That's CHOICE, not the basis for Theological Principle.



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