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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 8/8/2008 10:55:22 AM
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manda59
Posts: 5685
Joined: 9/22/2005
From: Hampshire, UK
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Do we need to start a petition? lol
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"I love Manda's suggestion to just laugh most of it off.."
Tinkerbell, September 2008
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 8/8/2008 11:07:41 AM
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lexie
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I found this website because I am interested in reading about this. I don't much about the website or credibility or anything, but basically it's the Catholic point of view discussing the fundamentalist point of view on infant baptism.
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 8/8/2008 11:39:50 AM
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ThursdaysChild
Posts: 324
Joined: 1/18/2006
From: The Arabian Gulf
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Manda- Remember I tried to get out of it but you insisted. (So blame her, ladies!) 
This post feels rather disjointed to me. Possibly the head cold I've had for the last week that won't let up. Kindly remember, if I seem to jump around a bit, that I'm currently on drugs. 
quote:
ORIGINAL: Georgia-Peach
quote:
While believer's baptism is fine for those not raised in the church, they must baptize infants. That's Scriptural and therefore nonnegotiable.
I would be curious to know the scripture that states a infant must be baptized...never heard that.
I was raised/currently attend an Assemblies of God church. We do baby dedications, which we did Hunter's when he was 3 months old. It is a simple ceremony in which we make a commitment before the Lord and congregation that we will do everything in our ability to raise the child to know the Lord. Leading by example, praying for them, bringing them to church, and teaching them about the Lord. In the Assemblies of God we do believer's baptism, not infant.
Why do you do baby dedications? That is a man-made tradition with no Biblical basis. I have nothing against them. They're just totally unnecessary.
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The church I was raised in did infants baptism, and thus I was baptised then. The church I am in now does believer's baptism. I am one of those people who got baptised again because I felt that the first baptism, I had not part in and it didn't express my desire to follow Christ, but my parents desire for me. My second baptism was my putting my old self to death and being born again in Christ.
What do you think that first baptism was? You didn't do anything in that second baptism that God hadn't already done for you in the first one. As for not having a part in your first baptism...how much did you have to do with your first birth? Nothing. So why would you think you have a part in your second one? It was a gift of God. (I'm not picking on you, Lexie. You just asked a question that I already had an answer for. )
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"He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that, having been justified by His grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life. " Titus 3: 5-8
Someone gave me this analogy once...You prepare a feast for some homeless people. You prepared the food FOR THEM. It is FOR THEM. They come to the table because that's where the food is. But that's not why they get the food. They didn't get the food because they came to the table. They got the food because you prepared it and gave it to them. Not as a reward for coming to the table. Then it wouldn't have been a gift.
To come and be baptized is not a work. It is to receive a FREE gift that has already been given...or to NOT reject the gift that was given. People still want to try to earn the gift however. They can't get it into their heads that they don't have to have some experience or some testimony to prove they're worthy of baptism. But that's to miss the point. It's free. It's for everyone. No one deserves it yet it's still for them.
Think of Lazarus. He was dead. Literally. He couldn't hear or understand Christ. He could do nothing to live again. Yet, when Christ commanded him to come forth from the tomb, he did. We were dead in our trespasses until our baptism. How can we play a part in our salvation when we're dead? We can't. The ability to have faith, to repent and confess our sins, all of it, is a gift from God.
Which really exalts baptism? Believer's baptism, which is a work, or infant baptism, which is a gift?
Can babies receive gifts? Yes, of course they can. Do they always understand them? No. Often times they end up discarded while they play with the pretty paper. Later, however, they come to understand that the thing inside was the gift and it's for them. God has blessed us with many gifts. Do we always recognize them at the time? No, we don't. Does that make them any less valid? Of course not.
As for scriptural references for infant baptism? They're all over the place. Everywhere you see a reference to a household being baptized and believing, you're seeing a reference to infant baptism. Household includes everyone in the household.
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Acts 16:14-15 (New King James Version)
New King James Version (NKJV)
Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.
14 Now a certain woman named Lydia heard us. She was a seller of purple from the city of Thyatira, who worshiped God. The Lord opened her heart to heed the things spoken by Paul. 15 And when she and her household were baptized, she begged us, saying, “If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come to my house and stay.” So she persuaded us.
There are those who argue, wrongly, that it doesn't. That wasn't true in the OT and it's not true in the NT. Remember Abraham? The covenant God made with him was for all the males in his household. Anyone there at the time the covenant was made as well as all future generations. It included children. Infants. All his children (and the children of his servants) were to be circumcised.
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Acts 2:38-39 (New King James Version)
New King James Version (NKJV)
Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.
39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.”
Children means children.
How many infants who are adopted by human parents have any choice in the matter? If I adopt an infant, am I really his mother? YES. If he decides later that he doesn't like me, does make him any less my son? NO, of course not. Like any of my natural children, he has the ability to run away from home. He has the right, when he grows to maturity, to decide he wants nothing to do with me or his family ever again. However, that doesn't stop me from loving him and wanting to be reconciled with him again. If he never returns to our family, does that mean his adoption was invalid? NO. If he realizes later that he does love me and need me in his life, do we have to go to court and sign the papers again? Of course not! That was already done years ago! It's silly to think it needs to be done again. He's my son because I adopted him. There is no need for me to adopt him again. Therefore, once we have been adopted by God in our baptism, no matter how much or how little say we had in the matter at the time, we are his children. Can we reject Him later? Yes, we can. But that doesn't mean that our baptism (adoption) was invalid.
Look at Romans, especially chapters 6 and 8. No where does it imply that baptism is something we do for merit. It's all a gift. God, in His abundant mercy, has given this gift to us. No where does it deny this gift to children. Nor is it even remotely implied. Since the beginning of the church, infants and toddlers and young children have been baptized and adopted into God's family. That's over 2000 years. The idea of only baptizing "believers" is a very new one by comparison.
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Live your life in such a way that every morning when your feet hit the floor...Satan shudders and says..."Oh No...she's AWAKE!"
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 8/8/2008 12:19:31 PM
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manda59
Posts: 5685
Joined: 9/22/2005
From: Hampshire, UK
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ThursdaysChild
Why do you do baby dedications? That is a man-made tradition with no Biblical basis. I have nothing against them. They're just totally unnecessary.
Actually, to call them Baby Dedications is a bit of a misnomer. Yes, it's presenting the baby before the Lord for a blessing (cf Luke 2 v 25-39), but it's the parents (and congregation) that make the promises.
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You didn't do anything in that second baptism that God hadn't already done for you in the first one. As for not having a part in your first baptism...how much did you have to do with your first birth? Nothing. So why would you think you have a part in your second one? It was a gift of God.
I guess we regard spiritual birth totally differently. To me, to be born again means the person has to take an active part in the decision, choosing to follow Christ by an act of will - meaning that being born again cannot be done on someone's behalf. As someone once said "God only has children, not grandchildren".
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People still want to try to earn the gift however. They can't get it into their heads that they don't have to have some experience or some testimony to prove they're worthy of baptism.
I honestly don't know where you get that last bit from. I don't consider baptism as a merit badge for worthiness.
quote:
As for scriptural references for infant baptism? They're all over the place. Everywhere you see a reference to a household being baptized and believing, you're seeing a reference to infant baptism. Household includes everyone in the household.
You're assuming this included babies - I would say that we can't assume that.
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Look at Romans, especially chapters 6 and 8. No where does it imply that baptism is something we do for merit.
I repeat that I don't know where you get the idea from that it's done "for merit". Baptism to me is an act of service, a sacrificial act, and a witness for Christ.
quote:
The idea of only baptizing "believers" is a very new one by comparison.
I disagree, especially with all the verses which say "Believe and be baptised" (implying that belief has to come first).
I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this.
Thanks for sharing your perspective.
_____________________________
"I love Manda's suggestion to just laugh most of it off.."
Tinkerbell, September 2008
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 8/8/2008 2:10:36 PM
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TwinCityGirl
Posts: 942
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: manda59
I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this.
This is where we always end up on discussions of baptism. We had this discussion here months ago (and it's okay to discuss it again and again if people want, I have no problem with that), but when we discussed it months ago I felt like the lone infant baptizer person. Pretty much the women on the forums are not infant baptizers, so it kind of becomes pointless (to me) to keep hashing at it.
Sometimes it starts to feel like people question you're doing this bad or wrong thing by baptizing an infant. I don't like that feeling and I surely hope that's not what people do think, but our little boy is going to be baptized later this month because that is what the LORD is calling us to do. It has nothing to do with anybody else.
It is certainly valid of discussion (infant baptism and believer baptism) but it's really quite the believer baptism majority around here.
Jeanie
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 8/8/2008 2:13:07 PM
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TwinCityGirl
Posts: 942
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BETH: Everywhere you see a reference to a household being baptized and believing, you're seeing a reference to infant baptism. Household includes everyone in the household.
MANDA: You're assuming this included babies - I would say that we can't assume that.
But Manda, you're not saying there would be NO BABIES in the household. You're saying you don't believe "household" would include the babies in the house, right?
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 8/8/2008 2:14:57 PM
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TwinCityGirl
Posts: 942
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Beth,
Thanks for taking all the time to post all that when you don't feel well. Hopefully someone learned something from it -- I know I did. Even if people don't change their mind, it was nice of you to post your beliefs there. Well done.
Jeanie
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 8/8/2008 2:45:13 PM
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RepentanceIsRequired
Posts: 1080
Joined: 9/14/2005
From: Home is where the heart is.
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It is my understanding as well that baptism washes away the stain of original sin. So we have baptized our children to bring them into the body/church. As they grow they will have the choice of either embracing God and the church or to reject it. If they do grow in the faith then they will be confirmed.
Believers baptism has never sat well with me even when I was a protestant.
_____________________________
--Nicole--
"Trying to be a perfect mother is a recipe for perfect insanity." -- SurpassingPeace
"I don't know what I just ate, but it was good" -- recent customer (farmer) at our restaurant.
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 8/8/2008 2:57:51 PM
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TwinCityGirl
Posts: 942
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Brandy
But it's such a cute avatar!
Whew! Thanks for posting, Brandy and Nicole....a whole page of Adam? Sure, that's cute, but a bit much!! (I love my kid and think he's adorable but I don't expect that everyone else does!)
(I do love the avatars of all these cute babies and children, though. And some pets! There are some good pet ones, too!)
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 8/8/2008 3:01:38 PM
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magdaleine
Posts: 4891
Joined: 4/11/2005
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Beth (ah ha! I finally figure out your name), I appreciate all you wrote. You said some things that I had never thought of before and some of them make sense to me. I used to believe that infant baptism was wrong. I think I can adjust that now to say that there is nothing that prohibits it. I can't, however, give up the belief that baptism is a choice I make to be buried with Christ and resurrected with him. Yes, salvation is a gift. It's available to all who want it but that's the thing, an infant doesn't know whether he wants it or not. An older child or adult does.
As for baby dedication, that was something instituted by Moses and practiced by Mary and Joseph with Jesus. (See Luke 2:22-24. NIV uses "consecration" but that's the same as dedication, I'm thinking.) Exodus 13:2 is what is being quoted in Luke but I see now, it's referring only to firstborn males. And when I went to check about what happens when the woman is "purified" from childbirth, it doesn't involve the child at all, as I thought, but just the mom (see Leviticus 12).
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Maggie
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 8/8/2008 4:13:45 PM
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spitzu
Posts: 1082
Joined: 4/19/2005
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Beth, that was really interesting. Thanks for sharing. I hate that stuff like this has to be such a hot topic in places like this. That's so silly. I mean, we're all adults... civil discussions shouldn't be difficult, even for difficult topics.
I'd love to study more about the "household" thing, because that sounds like an extremely valid point to me. I'd like to find out what indeed is meant by that. We can't just speculate (not saying anyone hereis, but for me personally to say it meant this, that, or the other, it would be pure speculation because I don't know and have not studied it).
I think that so much is lost in today's church because we ignore/don't understand/don't care to learn about what it was truly like in Biblical times, and what His people back then did. What Jesus did aside from what is mentioned in the Gospels. I think there is so much lost there, and that saddens me. I love learning about Jewish traditions (and by that, I mean Biblical Jewish traditions... what God had them do and celebrate back then, not necessarily the traditions they hold to today) and think that should be taught in the church, because, umm, Christianity is kind of based on it.
< Message edited by spitzu -- 8/8/2008 4:20:27 PM >
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 8/8/2008 4:16:35 PM
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spitzu
Posts: 1082
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It's pretty impossible to get a photo of them together, but here's Trixie.
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 8/8/2008 4:19:35 PM
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clag4christ
Posts: 2827
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
It is my understanding as well that baptism washes away the stain of original sin.
Where does it state that in Scripture?
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<-----My fabulous Joel & me in Scotland
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 8/8/2008 4:46:19 PM
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peculiar_lady2
Posts: 10741
Joined: 2/11/2007
From: Between Hither and Yon
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quote:
I hate that stuff like this has to be such a hot topic in places like this. That's so silly. I mean, we're all adults... civil discussions shouldn't be difficult, even for difficult topics.
I completely agree....I love this thread b/c I am always stretching what I think and know from the discussions here......and they stay civil!!!
quote:
I think that so much is lost in today's church because we ignore/don't understand/don't care to learn about what it was truly like in Biblical times, and what His people back then did. What Jesus did aside from what is mentioned in the Gospels. I think there is so much lost there, and that saddens me. I love learning about Jewish traditions (and by that, I mean Biblical Jewish traditions... what God had them do and celebrate back then, not necessarily the traditions they hold to today) and think that should be taught in the church, because, umm, Christianity is kind of based on it.
I completely agree!!! The culture many times is the missing link between us understanding something and us not understanding it.
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: spitzu
It's pretty impossible to get a photo of them together, but here's Trixie.
awwww...thanks!!  I love black and white animals together.....I used to have a white cat and my brother had a black cat...I loved pics of them together (PIC).
I love that pic in your account of your moms dog too (Lucy)...cute!!!!
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"To punish the child is to take revenge because you're irritated or whatever...to discipline is to teach the child."~~OneOfHisJewels
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 8/8/2008 5:25:59 PM
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magdaleine
Posts: 4891
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: clag4christ
quote:
It is my understanding as well that baptism washes away the stain of original sin.
Where does it state that in Scripture?
1 Peter 3:
18 For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19 through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison 20 who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,
21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also--not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at God's right hand--with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.
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Maggie
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 8/8/2008 5:34:07 PM
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clag4christ
Posts: 2827
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: We just moved to the big state of Texas!
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quote:
ORIGINAL: magdaleine
quote:
ORIGINAL: clag4christ
quote:
It is my understanding as well that baptism washes away the stain of original sin.
Where does it state that in Scripture?
1 Peter 3:
18 For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19 through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison 20 who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,
21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also--not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at God's right hand--with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.
This passage does not literally mean that Baptism saves...for if that were true Christ's sacrifice would not mean anything...all we'd have to do is go and get dunked and we'd be good to go...
But rather symbolism is being used...the flood is symbolizing baptism, and baptism is symbolizing salvation...Baptism is a sympol of salvation in that it depicts Christ's death, burial and resurrection and now our identification with Him in these experiences...
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<-----My fabulous Joel & me in Scotland
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 8/8/2008 6:13:45 PM
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TwinCityGirl
Posts: 942
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Wasn't the comment about original sin being washed away?
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 8/8/2008 6:22:59 PM
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spitzu
Posts: 1082
Joined: 4/19/2005
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How's Brian doing?
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