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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 5/16/2008 12:53:39 AM
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nicole6598
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I would love to visit Greece and see where my Grandparents lived and meet extended family.
I have a question.. Our pastor has opened up the church at nights to be a part of "God t.v" revival with praying for our town and country etc. I know a few people they have are questionable and are WOF. Would you say anything to your pastor about it or just leave it? My hubby is on the church board and didn't like it the first time I mentioned that some of the people his dad talks about (his dad is pastor of a church in another state) are questionable and it caused huge fights.
There are no other churches in my town to go to either and that would cause more problems then its worth. The baptist church here is not good imo, I know the pastor and he gives me the creeps.
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 5/16/2008 9:29:09 AM
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ThursdaysChild
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OK, that's not good. The pastor gives you the creeps? Good thing it's not your church.
Well, just because it's at your church and your husband's on the board, doesn't mean you have to attend. You can just not participate that night. If you go and don't realize until the person starts that they're WOF or something along those lines, you can just step out. Maybe go help in the nursery. You don't necessarily have to say anything if it bothers your husband, but you can certainly answer honestly if anyone asks why you're doing it.
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 5/16/2008 1:22:37 PM
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myka
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Nicole,
I would agree with Beth. For years, my dh was pretty "set in his ways" spiritually; his dad was a pastor, and professor (seminary). I had some "issues" with some of his thoughts and with certain teachings of the churches that we attended, but I was able to grow spiritually while not addressing those issues directly and publically. I just avoided the problem areas and did my own studying. You can just not participate or do something else -- like helping in some way (so that you don't have to listen to the teachings). I didn't realize that your dh was on the church board.
Shalom
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 5/16/2008 6:14:34 PM
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nicole6598
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Thanks Beth and Myka- I talked with another friend who has the same concerns about our church that we are getting a bit too "hillsong ish" and we are just going to keep one another accountable for studying on our own once the pastor has finished and I will not be going to the prayer nights (i wouldn't go even if I wanted to anyway with 2 kids).
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that is a dolphin at our beach
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 5/17/2008 3:00:39 AM
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TammyIsBlessed
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Topic idea from another thread....
Should culture dictate morality? Can something be morally wrong in one cultural and morally ok in another?
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 5/17/2008 12:01:30 PM
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Mrs.Wifey
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I think it comes down to whether or not you are an absolutist or a relativist. Just like we don't expect Christian behavior from non-Christians, I don't think you can expect love and compassion from people who were not raised to act that way and have never culturally been shown those attitudes.
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 5/17/2008 12:21:24 PM
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peculiar_lady2
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outside of Christ there is no moral compass....no moral guide with which to point us in the way we should or shouldn't go. Take God out of the picture and you might as well take morality away also. Every society and civilization throughout time has proven that to be true. The moral guidelines that the Bible lays out as being a good guide are not bound by cultures or time's, though they are bound by the factor of God being involved in those cultures or not. So essentially, like Ryanne said, we can't expect a non-Christian world to live by the moral guidelines that God set up for us to live by...not because they aren't good enough moral guidelines, but because there is no conviction to follow those guidelines. Some people (Christian or non) are raised with the convictions of "etiquette", but that isn't really morality.
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 5/17/2008 1:04:16 PM
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solo_soprano22
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TammyIsBlessed
Topic idea from another thread....
Should culture dictate morality? Can something be morally wrong in one cultural and morally ok in another?
I think morality does depend on which culture one is in, but not in EVERY moral situation.
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 5/17/2008 1:08:14 PM
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peculiar_lady2
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solo_soprano22
quote:
ORIGINAL: TammyIsBlessed
Topic idea from another thread....
Should culture dictate morality? Can something be morally wrong in one cultural and morally ok in another?
I think morality does depend on which culture one is in, but not in EVERY moral situation.
can you give an example of what moral situation you are talking about, because everything I can think of is cultural or fits more in the realm of etiquette...and that is not morality.
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Proud Army Wife
Mom to Jake, Hannah, Emma, Jackson, and Justice
"The purpose of all war is peace."
-Saint Augustine
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 5/17/2008 1:22:04 PM
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danas_mom
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I believe there are some things that are moral absolutes - murder is a good example - and these transcend culture. Other things are ok to fall under a cultural based morality, such as certain exposed body parts being culturally the norm in one place but wrong in another.
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 5/17/2008 1:30:16 PM
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peculiar_lady2
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quote:
I believe there are some things that are moral absolutes - murder is a good example - and these transcend culture. Other things are ok to fall under a cultural based morality, such as certain exposed body parts being culturally the norm in one place but wrong in another.
yes, but to me that is not "morality", that is cultural or etiquette....morality is an absolute that can not change no matter where or when you are talking about (like what you said, killing). Killing (since you used it) has always been wrong morally, and will always be wrong morally. It was wrong when Cain killed Able, and it will be wrong when the last person kills someone else at the end of time. That is a moral absolute. However, cultural differences are not morally wrong. For instance, the Pygme tribe in Africa....their "cultural norm" is that the men breastfeed. It isn't wrong for men to breastfeed (after all they are mammals and their bodies are made with mammary glands and will produce milk if stimulated to do so)...however according to our "western society" it is against the cultural norm and it looked at in some places as being "wrong". It however is not a "moral absolute" like killing is...it is simply s cultural difference.
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Proud Army Wife
Mom to Jake, Hannah, Emma, Jackson, and Justice
"The purpose of all war is peace."
-Saint Augustine
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 5/17/2008 2:08:43 PM
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magdaleine
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I think alcohol is another culturally defined "moral." My observation is that most American Christians would never allow themselve to be found in a drinking place whereas in Canada, for many Christians it's not an issue and in Europe they're even freer.
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 5/17/2008 2:11:08 PM
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magdaleine
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Hmmm. As I'm thinking, even the definition of murder may vary from culture to culture. Consider how, in the Old Testament, there was an OBLIGATION to kill people if they broke certain rules (rules which, to us, seem to be totally unworthy of death).
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 5/17/2008 2:15:39 PM
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solo_soprano22
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Sarah, then I think it depends on whose definition of moral you are using. Mine doesn't include absolutes in that way; it is simply what is right and what is wrong for any given person at a given time. Some of them happen to be absolute (like murder), but others aren't. Both are morals however.
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 5/17/2008 2:25:56 PM
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magdaleine
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When I did a google search for "what are morals?" the concensus I found can be summed up by one site's answer: "motivation based on ideas of right and wrong." While we agree that there are absolutes of right and wrong, there are a lot of things that people in one culture consider right that another will consider wrong. And if the people in those two cultures are Christian, they may believe that the other culture is wrong.
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 5/17/2008 3:10:31 PM
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peculiar_lady2
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solo_soprano22
Sarah, then I think it depends on whose definition of moral you are using. Mine doesn't include absolutes in that way; it is simply what is right and what is wrong for any given person at a given time. Some of them happen to be absolute (like murder), but others aren't. Both are morals however.
ahhh....so then according to your definition of morality there is NO absolute. So if there is no absolute line, then in essence there is no "right" or no "wrong". And if there is no wrong, then why did God send Jesus to die for our sins (our "wrongs")? So in essence, there has to be moral absolutes when you are defining things in the realm of God....however, outside of God there is no absolute (no definitive "sin"). That's how I got my answer above about the difference between something defined by "morality" and things defined by "culture".
Maggie....there is a huge difference between KILLING and MURDER
quote:
And if the people in those two cultures are Christian, they may believe that the other culture is wrong.
CULTURE, yes...but true definitive MORALITY, I don't see it that way. The Bible defines the rights and wrongs...and it goes beyond all cultural and time boundaries and still holds true to those moral truths.
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Mom to Jake, Hannah, Emma, Jackson, and Justice
"The purpose of all war is peace."
-Saint Augustine
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 5/17/2008 3:21:49 PM
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magdaleine
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I think you're equating morals with not sinning. I'm not. There are many areas that are open for interpretation in the Bible, such as drinking, that don't fall into the category of sin or not sin but which, for one culture may be morally wrong and for another morally right. For instance, I was raised to think that dancing is immoral. I don't see anything in the Bible to back that up.
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 5/17/2008 3:24:08 PM
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magdaleine
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quote:
Maggie....there is a huge difference between KILLING and MURDER
Agreed. But what I'm suggesting is that the line between them differs from culture to culture. I'm guessing that even in this thread there would be differences about where that line is or should be.
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 5/17/2008 3:46:54 PM
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Sideways
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quote:
ORIGINAL: magdaleine
quote:
Maggie....there is a huge difference between KILLING and MURDER
Agreed. But what I'm suggesting is that the line between them differs from culture to culture. I'm guessing that even in this thread there would be differences about where that line is or should be.
Certainly. It the OT it was perfectly moral to KILL the entire family of a man who'd committed certain sins, babies and all. That same sort of punishment would be MURDER in today's culture.
A woman had to marry her rapist in the OT according to God's law; it was morally right to insist that she marry him, because the CULTURE of the time rendered her useless once she had been raped. So the rapist had to take care of her, because no one else would marry her, and she couldn't be on her own in that culture, so otherwise she'd only be a burden to her family.
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 5/17/2008 4:16:08 PM
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peculiar_lady2
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quote:
I think you're equating morals with not sinning. I'm not.
no, I am saying that if there is no moral absolute (like Tamara brought up) then one could ascertain that there is no sin. This is the whole standing of humanism...that there are no moral absolutes, therefore what is wrong for one is not wrong for another, therefore there is no sin. That is humanism. There is no place in that thinking for God....and we as Christians are thrown out of the loop there. When you put God into it, then YES there are moral absolutes...because without them there would be no sin and therefore no reason for Jesus.
quote:
There are many areas that are open for interpretation in the Bible, such as drinking, that don't fall into the category of sin or not sin but which, for one culture may be morally wrong and for another morally right.
but again, ARE they truly morally wrong, or are they just CULTURALLY wrong.
the difference between culturally and morally is the addition of God into the equation. You can not have morality without God. I think what a lot of people are saying are moral issues really are not moral issues at all, they are culture issues. For instance....drinking....the Bible does not take a stance (morally) on drinking...it just takes a stance on drunkenness (that we should not get drunk). THAT is the moral standing on it (from the Bible). Culturally yes you have different tolerances for drinking in their societies...and what is acceptable in one place is not in another...however that does not change the Biblical stance of not to get drunk. That is the absolute, not the situations surrounding the cultural exchanges of drinking or not drinking.
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"The purpose of all war is peace."
-Saint Augustine
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 5/17/2008 4:56:06 PM
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myka
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quote:
Certainly. It the OT it was perfectly moral to KILL the entire family of a man who'd committed certain sins, babies and all. That same sort of punishment would be MURDER in today's culture.
A woman had to marry her rapist in the OT according to God's law; it was morally right to insist that she marry him, because the CULTURE of the time rendered her useless once she had been raped. So the rapist had to take care of her, because no one else would marry her, and she couldn't be on her own in that culture, so otherwise she'd only be a burden to her family.
There is a difference in the acceptable actions of a government and those of an individual. In the OT, the consequences of murder, adultery and blasphemy were punishable by death. The offended party would carry out the legal aspects of the sentence; in a sense becoming an instrument for the government in that case.
There are societies that have deemed it immoral for the government to carry out capital punishment, and there are those societies who view CP differently.
As far as rape in the OT, the woman did not have to marry the rapist; her father decided what consequences resulted from the rape.
Morality in sexual activities is one area that can vary widely amongst societies.
In the NT, one of the areas that was very countercultural to the accepted norms was the husband's role in the marriage (loving his wife as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for it).
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 5/17/2008 5:55:46 PM
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solo_soprano22
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quote:
ORIGINAL: peculiar_lady2
quote:
ORIGINAL: solo_soprano22
Sarah, then I think it depends on whose definition of moral you are using. Mine doesn't include absolutes in that way; it is simply what is right and what is wrong for any given person at a given time. Some of them happen to be absolute (like murder), but others aren't. Both are morals however.
ahhh....so then according to your definition of morality there is NO absolute. So if there is no absolute line, then in essence there is no "right" or no "wrong". And if there is no wrong, then why did God send Jesus to die for our sins (our "wrongs")? So in essence, there has to be moral absolutes when you are defining things in the realm of God....however, outside of God there is no absolute (no definitive "sin"). That's how I got my answer above about the difference between something defined by "morality" and things defined by "culture".
What I was saying (by what you put in bold) was that a moral is just what is right and wrong for a human being, not that any human can choose what they want to be moral-- just that an absolute is always absolute for anyone across any culture.
There are some absolutes for every given person at any given time. I don't think I said there weren't. I'm saying not everything having to do with morals is an absolute. That's not the what a moral is, but I guess that depends on whose mind is making the definition. Some morals are changeable. There are morals that are absolute, but there are morals that certainly are not (moral absolutes are set; cultural morals are changeable). A moral isn't equivalent to an absolute; it's simply what is right and what is wrong. There are some things that are ALWAYS wrong, but some things can also be right/wrong depending on things (not those that are absolute). It seems like you may be defining a moral by a concept of sin alone. Mine is just right and wrong, whether it's set or dependent on cultural morality.
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 5/17/2008 6:30:47 PM
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bride48
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But sin is an violation of God's moral code.
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 5/17/2008 7:15:44 PM
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peculiar_lady2
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quote:
It seems like you may be defining a moral by a concept of sin alone.
no, I am defining sin by morals...not morals by sin. You have to have absolutes or there is no line of definition to ever go by...therefore because there is no line, then there is no sin. That's not what the Bible says though...the Bible clearly states absolutes (or that line in the sand so to speak) on several issues. I think the things that you are describing though are not what I would call "moral absolutes"....they would fit more into the "cultural differences" in my book. Things defined by culture can change and grow with time and people and still be deemed as rights or wrongs (or as sometimes right for one and wrong for another)....but moral issues, the true deep down moral issues (as in the ten commandments types of things) are always set in stone. Those are the things that never change because God's opinion of those things never changes. They are that line in the sand. So to me it would seem that your version of a moral issue and mine are very different (probably because that's what I was taught growing up). Someone earlier brought up dancing being "morally wrong" (or that's what they were taught growing up). I don't think of things like that to be a moral issue, I think it's more cultural...in some people's beliefs it is wrong, but overall it is not an absolute and can change without becoming a "sin" issue. However, take that argument over to something more concrete, like the first commandment "Do not worship any other god's"...there you have an absolute. By defining it to being an absolute then you can determine that it is sinful to break that one. However, if you take God out of the picture then you are back to having no absolutes at all, thus no morality...which is the definition of humanism.
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"The purpose of all war is peace."
-Saint Augustine
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There was some thread in morality/ethics a while ago about that kind of thing.
