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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 4/24/2008 5:45:43 PM
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magdaleine
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I looked at the pictures of Fahaheel. The place looks rather prosperous, except for those crazy crashes. I'm astounded at the architectural drawings of what is proposed for the area. The buildings look like ski jump slopes!
Our ground is covered with snow today.
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 4/24/2008 6:51:48 PM
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myka
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quote:
ORIGINAL: danas_mom
I've been thinking a lot about the predestination conversation the past few days. I still haven't come up with anything that completely settles the matter in my mind, and I don't think I ever will because it's such a 'huge' thing our mortal minds simply cannot comprehend it all.
But something that I do definitely believe is that even though God is (of course!) all knowing and all seeing, and he is not limited to only seeing things in the here and now like we are, there are things he *chooses* not to know ahead of time so as to not affect our free will. He knows, but he doesn't know. (And now I'm dizzy too! Heh.) It's kind of like when Jesus says that even he does not know the day or the hour that our world will end, only the Father does. Since the Father and the Son are one (part of the Triune being) it's not possible that he doesn't know in the way that we think of knowing something. There's just something else at work there that's beyond our ability to comprehend.
I also think it makes a little more sense if you look at it backwards. We don't make the choices we make because we were Predestined to make those choices, but there are certain things that God has brought across our paths because he saw our life from beginning to end before the foundations of the world, and these things are part of the purpose he has for us while we're here. Kind of like when the prophets of old were given little snippets of prophecies that were fulfilled when Jesus was on the earth, I don't think Jesus had a checklist in his head of things he needed to say and do to fulfill those prophecies, I think he (as the Word) gave the prophecies to the prophets because he already knew he would be saying and doing them. He gave the prophecies in order to fulfill prophecy.
And now my brain hurts. 
One of the unique attributes of God in the Old Testament is that he does know the future. I think that God does know the future/everything, and we have free will. God knows beforehand what our choices will be kinda like a parent sometimes knows what their child will say/do before they do it. I also believe that God does know when we will die, and we don't. That isn't to say that we do nothing and let it happen.
I think it is a hard thing to explain because it is one of those divine mysteries that our minds cannot quite comprehend.
< Message edited by myka -- 4/24/2008 7:02:45 PM >
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 4/25/2008 5:41:30 PM
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bride48
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God is also all-powerful, isn't He? So can't He predestine everything? If not, why not?
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 4/25/2008 6:21:09 PM
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bride48
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It comes across, though, as if He's helpless to resist our free will.
I'll need to see exactly where free will is taught in Scripture. Maybe that's a good Bible study topic for me. I used to lean toward that theological model, but I found too many Scriptures on predestination. Could our free will be subjuct to His predestination? Like, we perceive it as free will, but it's part of His bigger picture?
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Thankfulness (my latest blog entry)
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 4/26/2008 7:14:37 AM
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RepentanceIsRequired
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quote:
Could our free will be subjuct to His predestination?
I don't think so. God gives us the options to chose an action or direction knowing that there will be consequences for some of them. If our free will was subject to His predestination then that imo would not be free will anymore. We would merely be drones or robots subject to the puppet masters strings. God will have already made the choice for us so then what would there be left for us to do?
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 4/26/2008 7:20:10 AM
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RepentanceIsRequired
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God created us to share His love with someone. Even Adam and Eve were subject to free will. I'm sure God knew what was going to happen, but He did not interfere. He still allowed them to make the choice to eat the fruit or not. God wants our obedience, but He won't do anything to make it happen. It has be of our own free will; our choice (but yes He already knows the outcome).
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 4/26/2008 2:13:48 PM
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bride48
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RepentanceIsRequired
God created us to share His love with someone. Even Adam and Eve were subject to free will. I'm sure God knew what was going to happen, but He did not interfere. He still allowed them to make the choice to eat the fruit or not. God wants our obedience, but He won't do anything to make it happen. It has be of our own free will; our choice (but yes He already knows the outcome).
Do you have Scripture to support your view?
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 4/26/2008 3:34:09 PM
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Mrs.Wifey
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DH and I have been debating the predestination/free will issue and haven't found that we believe in predestination... If everything is predestined and God controls it when did His predestination begin? Did He purposely allow everyone except for Noah and family to be sinners devoid of anything worth saving? Why would He only choose them?
And if He has predestined us, then why give the great commission?
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 4/26/2008 3:38:43 PM
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RepentanceIsRequired
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quote:
And if He has predestined us, then why give the great commission?
Yes that is my thought too.
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 4/26/2008 3:44:46 PM
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BrowneyedAL
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mrs.Wifey
And if He has predestined us, then why give the great commission?
My thought exactly Ryanne. If every detail is predetermined by God then what exactly is to be or can be done to make new disciples...they are born made or not.
I think my biggest problem with the idea of predestination is that it takes all possibility of receiving God's grace away from some...and I honestly can't imagine that it isn't available to some. I believe that God wants to give us ALL His grace if we will just receive it. But it who is saved and who is not is determined before our birth it is as though God has already abandoned those few...and that doesn't sound like the God of my understanding.
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 4/26/2008 4:04:45 PM
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bride48
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Any substantiating Scripture?
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 4/26/2008 4:25:07 PM
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BrowneyedAL
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The words...my thought...I think...and I believe in my response, indicate just that, my thoughts and beliefs. I am not and have never claimed to be a biblical scholar. Quite the opposite, I frequently claim to feel like somewhat of an infant in the biblical knowledge arena. So I'm certainly not the one to look to for quoting chapter and verse...occasionally I might manage to do that properly...but I wouldn't count on it if I were you DebbiLynne...lol.
That belief is merely based on my own view that God's grace and mercy is so great that I just can't imagine a God who is that merciful, in essence, turning his back on someone from birth which is the only way I can possibly frame what it is that would be happening to those predestined not to be saved...that the God which I see as grace-filled and merciful gives those individuals no hope for salvation from the moment they are conceived and that is just in such stark contrast with the ideas of grace and mercy.
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I have learned in whatever state I am to be content (Philippians 4:11)
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 4/26/2008 4:41:00 PM
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Mrs.Wifey
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THIS is a great link, explaining the Hebrew words for predestined/predestination as used in the NT. Read the section on Temporal Predestination, this is essentially what I have discovered through study of the Hebrew words in the context that they were used.
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 4/26/2008 4:46:55 PM
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bride48
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A few days ago, I read an interesting passage:
Judg 14:1-4
:1 Now Samson went down to Timnah, and saw a woman in Timnah of the daughters of the Philistines. 2 So he went up and told his father and mother, saying, "I have seen a woman in Timnah of the daughters of the Philistines; now therefore, get her for me as a wife." 3 Then his father and mother said to him, "Is there no woman among the daughters of your brethren, or among all my people, that you must go and get a wife from the uncircumcised Philistines?" And Samson said to his father, "Get her for me, for she pleases me well." 4 But his father and mother did not know that it was of the LORD--that He was seeking an occasion to move against the Philistines. For at that time the Philistines had dominion over Israel.
NKJV
As the story unfolds, Sampson continued to make sinful choices, but ultimately the Lord used all those choices to accomplish the destruction of the Philistines. Interesting. There are too many things in Scripture like this for me to discount Predestination. I can share more, if you wish.
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Thankfulness (my latest blog entry)
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 4/26/2008 4:54:04 PM
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myka
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mrs.Wifey
DH and I have been debating the predestination/free will issue and haven't found that we believe in predestination... If everything is predestined and God controls it when did His predestination begin? Did He purposely allow everyone except for Noah and family to be sinners devoid of anything worth saving? Why would He only choose them?
And if He has predestined us, then why give the great commission?
Perhaps he gave the great commission because he has predestined us. Think about it. None of us has come to faith on our own, we all had someone tell us whether it was a preacher, friend, Bible (yes, there were people who wrote things down so that others could know), other book, etc.
I think that there are two sides to the entire reality. Whenever we talk about God's work, I think that there is an element that we cannot comprehend (ineffability). I think that God has predestined those who would be saved, but he has not predestined those who will not be saved and desires for all to be saved; but he also knows that some will not choose to live by faith. I think that he commands us to make disciples because he works through humans to accomplish many of His plans.
Also, I think that there is an element of relationship that is in the whole salvation process. God is a relational being, and humans also reflect that aspect of God because we are made in the image of God. A lot of the time, our relationships are umm... "not reflecting" that image of God, but it is an aspect of our being that isn't going away.
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 4/26/2008 7:00:19 PM
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solo_soprano22
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I'm wondering how you all think of removal of respirators (and feeding tubes in some cases) when the person is in a PVS. I started thinking about the Karen Quinlan case, and I was thinking that a lot of people would say one is dead when brain activity ceases; her brain activity was minimal and abnormal.... and she was a vegetable until she got pneumo ten years later and died. I can't find many of the details of her specific case online, but here's the wiki article about it. Karen Quinlan. The source I read (in a medical ethics text) has a ton more in it, but the family said a lot of things about how her body was dyskinetic and flailing all the time.
I meant to ask my mom about it... since she was alive then and apparently she witnessed many unethical medial practices back in the day. I think I'd take someone off the respirator if they got like her, but different people think about it different ways.
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 4/26/2008 7:19:27 PM
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PrincessDonna
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I think I'd make sure I had exhausted all medical options and gotten second, third, fourth, and probably fifth opinions. If all still agreed that the soul (mind, will, and emotions) were gone, I would probably pull the tubes and let the body go too.
I think medically, we do too much for people, when sometimes we should just let them go (as if it's even up to us anyway  ). Particularly older people...I would not want to live through all manner of medical torture some of those people have lived through, that didn't even exist a couple generations ago.
ETA...obviously prayer would be key in the decision also, and probably wise counsel from our pastors. But that was so obvious to me that I forgot to type it out when I posted. 
< Message edited by PrincessDonna -- 4/26/2008 8:10:15 PM >
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 4/26/2008 8:01:19 PM
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danas_mom
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mrs.Wifey
THIS is a great link, explaining the Hebrew words for predestined/predestination as used in the NT. Read the section on Temporal Predestination, this is essentially what I have discovered through study of the Hebrew words in the context that they were used.
Great article Ryanne!
A snippet that pretty much wraps up the way I was reading this passage the other day, but couldn't figure out how to properly express it:
So, in Romans 8:30, God foresees that individuals will believe; and in due time, He calls them to Himself in various ways as through preaching and by the Spirit's summons. And as they respond favorably to this call, He justifies them. Then, still based on His foreknowledge (see v. 29) that individuals will keep believing, He glorifies them. Here Paul enlists a number of his grand theological concepts, in a sweeping statement of predestination.
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 4/26/2008 11:08:57 PM
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SAL67
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Hope you guys don't mind if I jump into this discussion on free will/predestination. I agree with those of you who have said the two intermix in a way that we cannot understand with our finite minds. There seem to be Scriptures that bolster both arguments, which is why I think it's both, and when we get to heaven it will all make sense. Until then, when we try to explain it, we mess it up.
That being said, for those who do not believe in predestination, what about Eph. 2:8-9 "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith - AND THIS NOT OF YOURSELVES, IT IS THE GIFT OF GOD - not by works, so that no one can boast." It seems to me that if we say we "chose" God out of our own free will, we are saying we are wiser and smarter than the person who has not yet "chosen" God. I believe that God chose me; I have nothing in me that would have chosen Him until He opened my eyes to His Truth.
Another verse that is upsetting to read, yet it is in Scripture, is Romans 9:19-21 "One of you will say to me: 'Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?' But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?"
Again, I think it is both. But I think it's tempting to dismiss the predestination side because it doesn't "fit" with who we think God is. Yet Scripture talks about it, and even if it seems cruel to us, God is perfectly good and perfectly just. It will make perfect sense to us one day, but I don't think it can make sense to us yet.
Just my two cents.
SAL
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 4/27/2008 5:01:35 AM
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ThursdaysChild
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quote:
ORIGINAL: magdaleine
I looked at the pictures of Fahaheel. The place looks rather prosperous, except for those crazy crashes. I'm astounded at the architectural drawings of what is proposed for the area. The buildings look like ski jump slopes!
Our ground is covered with snow today.
It's doing pretty well. I don't know if I mentioned it or not, but less than a handful of years ago westerners were not permitted to go there by their embassies. If you were military (or affiliated with them) you weren't allowed to go there. Now it's OK. They're still pretty conservative over that way but it's good shopping and some good restaurants.
quote:
It comes across, though, as if He's helpless to resist our free will.
He's not helpless to resist. He chooses NOT to resist the gift that He gave us.
quote:
And if He has predestined us, then why give the great commission?
Precisely!
quote:
That being said, for those who do not believe in predestination, what about Eph. 2:8-9 "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith - AND THIS NOT OF YOURSELVES, IT IS THE GIFT OF GOD - not by works, so that no one can boast." It seems to me that if we say we "chose" God out of our own free will, we are saying we are wiser and smarter than the person who has not yet "chosen" God. I believe that God chose me; I have nothing in me that would have chosen Him until He opened my eyes to His Truth.
He has given us salvation as a gift. We do exercise free will in choosing to accept or reject it. And we may flip flop for years before finally realizing that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, or choosing to follow a demon. He does desire that ALL of us be saved, but He knows that many of us will choose not to be, or to reject it once we have been.
As for removing respirators, etc... It depends upon the individual case. I think the family should decide based upon what they know of the person's wishes. That's why everyone should have "the talk" with their family members about things like that. Then, whether or not they've had that talk, the family members should exhaust all other option, opinions, etc. before making the final decision. You can always decide later to disconnect. But once that decision has been made, you're stuck with it. In the case of Karen Quinlin I think the family made the right decision. They were her parents, they knew her as well as anyone could, and it was obvious that she was never going to get better. In the more recent case of the woman who's husband wanted to disconnect and her parents didn't...I felt that it shouldn't have been done. He seemed to be the only one in the family ready to do it, was wanting to remarry and couldn't with her still alive, and her family was dead certain that she would not have wanted it. He said she did, but since she hadn't had "the talk" with anyone else, apparently, there was no way to know what her wishes would have been. If there's a spouse and the patients parents/siblings are in the picture, then there should be consent on both sides. In that case there should have been a way for a neutral party to step in (court appointed) with her POA and represent her in a divorce. That way he'd be free to remarry and her parents would then be responsible for her. Of course, I doubt he'd have been for that since apparently there was money going to pay for her treatment that he wanted, supposedly. If there was a divorce it's doubtful he'd have gotten any. Just my 100 fils.
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 4/27/2008 2:51:49 PM
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solo_soprano22
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PrincessDonna
I think I'd make sure I had exhausted all medical options and gotten second, third, fourth, and probably fifth opinions. If all still agreed that the soul (mind, will, and emotions) were gone, I would probably pull the tubes and let the body go too.
I think medically, we do too much for people, when sometimes we should just let them go (as if it's even up to us anyway ). Particularly older people...I would not want to live through all manner of medical torture some of those people have lived through, that didn't even exist a couple generations ago.
ETA...obviously prayer would be key in the decision also, and probably wise counsel from our pastors. But that was so obvious to me that I forgot to type it out when I posted.
I always think people should wait a while even if they're sure the person's not coming back. I'm just thinking about some extreme cases... I think there was a woman who went into a coma/PVS after open-heart surgery in 1954, and she's still "alive" somewhere in a home today I think. She's been a vegetable for over 50 years. I guess I'm just thinking there comes a point at which you let the biology die... I'm sure the person was long gone anyway. But I also think having a "person" there that you can see is better than having no one at all (to the family/loved ones).
< Message edited by solo_soprano22 -- 4/27/2008 2:58:36 PM >
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RE: Kicka, part 3 - 4/27/2008 4:48:18 PM
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bride48
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SAL67
Hope you guys don't mind if I jump into this discussion on free will/predestination. I agree with those of you who have said the two intermix in a way that we cannot understand with our finite minds. There seem to be Scriptures that bolster both arguments, which is why I think it's both, and when we get to heaven it will all make sense. Until then, when we try to explain it, we mess it up.
That being said, for those who do not believe in predestination, what about Eph. 2:8-9 "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith - AND THIS NOT OF YOURSELVES, IT IS THE GIFT OF GOD - not by works, so that no one can boast." It seems to me that if we say we "chose" God out of our own free will, we are saying we are wiser and smarter than the person who has not yet "chosen" God. I believe that God chose me; I have nothing in me that would have chosen Him until He opened my eyes to His Truth.
Another verse that is upsetting to read, yet it is in Scripture, is Romans 9:19-21 "One of you will say to me: 'Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?' But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?"
Again, I think it is both. But I think it's tempting to dismiss the predestination side because it doesn't "fit" with who we think God is. Yet Scripture talks about it, and even if it seems cruel to us, God is perfectly good and perfectly just. It will make perfect sense to us one day, but I don't think it can make sense to us yet.
Just my two cents.
SAL
I was going to post Romans 9:19-21 today, but Sal beat me to it. She's right that it's both, but I think much of contemporary evangelical theology downplays predestination. Perhaps we want a God that we can easily understand. Or, more accurately, we'd like His justice to better fit our concept of what justice should be.
And, like Adam and Eve, we want autonomy.
The concept of free-will offers us a sense of control, whereas predestination assigns all control to God. That's a threat to our self-esteem. I was very hostle toward the doctrine of predestination for many years, and (looking back) I think my hostility came from wanting to take some kind of credit for my salvation. But Scripture, as I understand it (and I may need correction) indicates that all credit must go to Jesus. I need to humble myself before Him, acknowledging my incapability to contribute anything to His amazing plan. It's hard to align my feelings with this perspective, but I'm working on it!
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Thankfulness (my latest blog entry)
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