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RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, - 5/19/2008 6:17:54 PM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 288
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint
quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
Sorry, but the parable that Yeshua` taught about the wheat and the tares is not about this time period at all! It's about the end of the Millennium!
I think you're absolutely wrong.
Jesus didn't teach about His Millennium reign just as He didn't tell everyone what Heaven was like during His first Advent; He did have a lot to say about the end of this age and the parable of the wheat and tares is one of those and it follows right along with all the other imagery about the end of the Church age.
Concerning your rebuttal, I did not mention the Kingdom, but Jesus did. In that regard, it is nearly impossible to frame the time of the Kingdom or what its exact bounds are from Scripture! Therefore, for you to say that it concerns only the Millennium goes against Jesus' own pronouncements that His Kingdom was already realized during His first Advent!
Furthermore, since we are the type of worshippers God desires and we will be included in His Kingdom, indeed, we will reign with Him and be as Priests during the Millennium - we as the Elect are very much a part of the end-time prophecy as it concerns the end of the Church age.
We are the Church! Each of us is a Temple of God! Church is not an institution of Man nor is it a building. Church is any group of believers.
Finally, as there are two resurrections - and the first is selective: then the parable of wheat and tares reflects the divergent paths taken by God's people as reflected in the Church and the wicked who reject God which will happen at the end of this age, and I think it is only a matter of a few years before the last events which must precede the end of this age come about!
Shalom, Sinner-Saint.
Well, OF COURSE you think I'm absolutely wrong! I would expect nothing else. What you need to understand, though, is that we have far different definitions that lead to a difference of opinion and interpretations of the Scriptures.
Allow me to start with the more obvious ones:
First, "Heaven" is a misnomer because of the way it is used. Its usage is as though it was some separate place foreign to all we know here on this earth. There IS a final state for mankind, but it is the NEW EARTH with its NEW SKY (Greek word ouranos), not "Heaven."
This is also similar to the Hebrew word shemayim. It is a word that primarily describes the atmosphere around our planet. That's clear from the first and second chapters of B'resheet (Genesis).
Matthew 16:1-4 make it clear that ouranos is talking about the atmosphere, as well. If you use an Englishman's Concordance or look in a Greek NT, you will see that the word translated as "heaven" in verse 1 is the SAME WORD translated "sky" in verses 2 and 3! (None of our translations, by the way, transmit this information.) Yeshua` GAVE them their "sign" from "ouranos!" but it wasn't what they were expecting!
Second, your definition of "church" GREATLY concerns me. What is the "church?" First, the word that was translated "church" was often the word "ekkleesia" which is a Greek, collective gerund (a participle that acts as a noun) literally meaning "out-calling" or a "calling out" [as of a group of people from the general populace]. This word was also used in the Greek text for a town council {translated "assembly" in Acts 19:32, 39, and 41). and for the children of Isra'el while they wandered in the wilderness (Acts 7:38). Compound this with the word translated "robbers of churches" (the Greek word hierosulos) which literally means "temple-despoilers", and I believe that our definition of "church" needs work.
I got to thinking once: if the word was applied to the children of Isra'el in the past, could it be that the word should be applied to the children of Isra'el when we read the word in the rest of the B'rit Chadashah (the NT)? I believe that the answer is "YES!"
Now, before you get all defensive on me, much defense of the word and consequently the modern concept of "church" from Paul's letter to the Ephesians:
Eph 5:22-33
22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
33 Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.
KJV
Now, the arguments go in such a way that the "church" is an organization and an institution. As such, it is looked at as an entity with a life of its own. Indeed, when organizing a new church, I was taught in Bible College that such legal organization would be best if the new church took on a life of its own.
BUT, that's NOT the understanding of the word "ekkleesia!" As a collective participle acting as a collective gerund and being used as a collective noun, it should not have any more "life of its own" than a FLOCK of geese has, or a SCHOOL of fish has! Indeed, when you look at verse 25 above, did the Christ die for an organization or an institution?! NO! He died for PERSONS, each one independently and individually! He died for YOU and He died for ME! He didn't die for some nebulous group; He died for each one IN the group!
So, before you take a defensive posture, ask yourself, "Could it be that we have this idea of 'church' wrong today?" I believe the Scriptures say, "Yes."
Now, when it comes to the term "Kingdom," I believe that the term is specifically speaking about David's Kingdom that is physically and literally passed on to His heir, Yeshua` haMashiach, the Christ, the One Anointed to be the King! Thus, it is the Kingdom that comprised Isra'el in the past with tributary nations, especially during Shlomo's reign.
We Goyim (Gentiles) are grafted into that Kingdom through the work of God's Son. In addition, the Jews today can also be grafted into that Kingdom as well. (Romans 9-11)
Now, granted, the Millennium is not all there is to God's Kingdom, for it will be an eternal Kingdom!
Luke 1:30-33
30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
KJV
HOWEVER, it did NOT start during the First Coming of our Lord! IT WAS POSTPONED! Why? Well, it was postponed because Isra'el as a nation REJECTED her King when He offered Himself to her.
He said,
Matt 23:37-39
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
KJV
ON THE OTHER HAND, this was ALL in God's plan from the beginning! They were SUPPOSED to reject Him as Messiah, Son of David, the conquering, kingly Messiah, and He would first become the Messiah, Son of Yosef, the suffering Messiah, for only as the suffering Messiah could He lay the foundation for the New Covenant!
Now, sure, we can view Him as our King right now for we are already His loyal subjects and His family, but when He comes and literally establishes His Kingdom in Isra'el ... in a word ... you ain't seen nuthin' yet!
Retrobyter
_____________________________
God will never abolish His Torah; He merely sent His Son to COMPLETE it so we aren't FORCED to keep it! (It's still a good idea, however.)
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RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, - 5/19/2008 6:30:50 PM
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bob97
Posts: 1807
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
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Retrobyter... I seem to find my self agreeing with you more than I disagree. 
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, - 5/20/2008 11:44:26 AM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3320
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
Retrobyter... I seem to find my self agreeing with you more than I disagree.
Bob
ROFL.
Must be the water.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, - 5/20/2008 11:45:29 AM
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chrystar
Posts: 47
Joined: 12/10/2005
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Just fyi
. 14We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18Therefore encourage each other with these words.(NIV) 2 Thess 4:14-18
This verse tells you that there will be no rapture ( i.e cuaght up in the air) until Jesus descndeds, i.e returns. So the Rapture CANNOT occur before Jesus returns,. Well when is that you ask?
4I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.(NIV Rev 20:4-5)
This happens in Chapt 20, well after the Tribulation and well after all the plauges and bowels- notice the word FIRST in this. Meaning there is not one before, but there is one after.First means first 
This is bibical proof, based on what the bible says, it is NOT my interpertaion, simply basic logic based on reading comprehension ex:
I used to be a pre-tribber, way back in the day, but studying the bible on my own lead me to this, and I saw my Pre-trribb belifs shattered. BUt again you can lead a horse to water but ya cant make em drink!
_____________________________
zug-zug
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RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, - 5/20/2008 11:58:11 AM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3320
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
The HOLY SPIRIT truly "leads" us into all truth.
Well this is true, but I hear people with wildly different eschatologies, ideas, timelines, and timing all claiming they prayed and the Holy Spirit showed them the answer...
So, just because one is led to believe in a certain perspective, doesn't necessarily mean it came from the Holy Spirit; obviously, some of us are deluding ourselves.
I will stand on the test of Scripture and to that point, I think that looking at Bible prophecy as a linear narrative which enumerates a certain sequence of events allows me to put the whole of prophecy together around certain specific and unique events so that a general sequence-of-events can predict the relative placement of the Rapture.
This methodology is a new paradigm in eschatology. It has the advantage of being able to found itself on the major books/passages concerning the end-times and bring a holistic approach that can discern the forest for the trees which finds coherent overall framework that doesn't have the problems some other methods/schools of eschatology have.
It led me to conclude for a Pre-Wrath viewpoint which I am more than willing to discuss.
Like I said, the HS "leads" us to truth.
I was a pre-tribber [hard core].
But, following the leading for 40 plus years,
I came to a pre-wrath conclusion, but also realize
that that may be just as wrong as the others.
So, technically, I am a none-of-the-above, but for label
sake fall in the post-trib which includes pre-wrath arena.
I think that most camps "agree" on the Resurrection.
It's the man-made doctrines that confuse us with "rapture."
The important thing is to be ready, to have our lamps lit, with
extra oil for the extended stay. When the bridegroom crieth,
we will in fact rise to "meet Him in the air." That's all it says.
All the other commentary is added for drama.
Baruch Haba BaShem Yahuah.
Blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, - 5/20/2008 2:22:19 PM
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tsnody2001
Posts: 78
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From: Terre Haute, IN
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Read the book called Because the Time is Near by John MacArthur. It is a good verse-by-verse commentary on the book of Revelation, extensively using Scripture all of the Bible to make his conclusions. After all, John the Apostle said in Rev. 1:3 that "Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near." The book of Revelation also end in the words: "I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book. He who testifies to these things says, 'Yes, I am coming soon.' Amen. Come, Lord Jesus. The grace of the Lord Jesus be with God's people. Amen." (vv. 18-21)
I'm sorry, but after my own careful study, as well as reading the writings of many godly men, I think the Scriptures are clear: "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." (Rev. 3:10) God will NOT let His church go through the Tribulation. But take heed to the letters He had for the seven churches.....
You can find many other writings from MacArthur here or at www.gracetoyou.org. The biblical eviedence is there, folks. Now, the fact is, even despite all the passages that support the Rapture, there are going to be those who refuse to hear it. Now, I understand why people get on here to ask honest questions, but what I don't understand is how people get on here every day to simply keep debates open that do not honor or glorify God; they are here more to prove a point than to learn about the living God and His word.
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RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, - 5/20/2008 2:24:18 PM
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tsnody2001
Posts: 78
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From: Terre Haute, IN
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quote:
extensively using Scripture all of the Bible to make his conclusions.
Oops! Correction: extensively using Scripture *from*all of the Bible to make his conclusions.
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RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, - 5/20/2008 3:06:22 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3320
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
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quote:
there are going to be those who refuse to hear it.
The problem is that we can use the same rhetoric from one camp
against the other.
Exegesis is the Scripture expounding itself.
Isegesis is using a whole bunch of scriptures from our own view point.
There still is NOT a verse that says, "I'm out of here."
God does not have to rip the body from the earth to "keep them from wrath."
Read the plagues of Egypt. Israel wasn't raptured out, but they were kept from the plagues.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, - 5/20/2008 4:01:24 PM
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chrystar
Posts: 47
Joined: 12/10/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tsnody2001
Read the book called Because the Time is Near by John MacArthur. It is a good verse-by-verse commentary on the book of Revelation, extensively using Scripture all of the Bible to make his conclusions. After all, John the Apostle said in Rev. 1:3 that "Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near." The book of Revelation also end in the words: "I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book. He who testifies to these things says, 'Yes, I am coming soon.' Amen. Come, Lord Jesus. The grace of the Lord Jesus be with God's people. Amen." (vv. 18-21)
I'm sorry, but after my own careful study, as well as reading the writings of many godly men, I think the Scriptures are clear: "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." (Rev. 3:10) God will NOT let His church go through the Tribulation. But take heed to the letters He had for the seven churches.....
You can find many other writings from MacArthur here or at www.gracetoyou.org. The biblical eviedence is there, folks. Now, the fact is, even despite all the passages that support the Rapture, there are going to be those who refuse to hear it. Now, I understand why people get on here to ask honest questions, but what I don't understand is how people get on here every day to simply keep debates open that do not honor or glorify God; they are here more to prove a point than to learn about the living God and His word.
So explain how what I qouted dosent make sense? it t lays out a clear picture of when the rapture happens by setting a condition( i.e the dead rising) which it makes it in turn easy to see when it happens by simply reading revelation until you get to the condition- simple, it is so simple, that I like you wonder why people dont hear it and understand it?
Did it ever occur to you that what John wrote was that he( GOD) would supply them the faith to stand during that hour of temptaion beacuse they have read revelation and know that the tribualtion is but for a short while?
If the bible is inerrant- then expalin away the verse that I gave you?...
It is actaully a very important debate, becasue what if I am right, what if there is no pre-trib rapture, and the tribualtiosn starts and people no longer have that fairy tale safetynet to rely on, how many will fall away?....What if am wrong?, what if there is a pre-trib rapture?......oh well I guess we can laugh about it while we are in heaven...You see the point Iam making here?, please tell me you do
*sigh*- we delude ourselves beacuase we don't want to believe it is true, we dont want to have the face the fact that we or our descndent will one day have to face the AC and the beast, and we secretly wonder" Will I be strong enough. Could I hold onto the faith depsite such persecution"?
I have given you proof-with out interpertaion of why pre-trib is not true but you cannot point out a verse that says" I will come and take the church away before the tribulation" only verses that IF interuperted correctly hint at it
P.s - sorry for getting so fired up, but this is an important debate. One I think actually we need to take more seriously
_____________________________
zug-zug
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RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, - 5/20/2008 10:55:48 PM
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Sinner-Saint
Posts: 485
Joined: 10/5/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: chrystar
...This happens in Chapt 20, well after the Tribulation and well after all the plauges and bowels- notice the word FIRST in this. Meaning there is not one before, but there is one after.First means first.
You have just one problem with your statement.
The book of Revelation is not a novel. You cannot read it straight through. The book of Revelation is written with overlapping parallel accounts.
Thus, in the parallel account of the one 'seven' in chapters 13 through 16 inclusive, we see Jesus coming on the clouds for the Harvest. This is the same image Jesus foretold in the Olivet Discourse and it's the same image Paul tells the Thessalonians in his first letter 4:16, 17.
The Harvest is the same as the Rapture. Two groups of people are taken (to receive their inheritance in Heaven) - the Dead in Christ and those who are still alive and are left after the Great Tribulation. You can see the result of the Harvest in the Seal acccount (in that parallel account ch 4-11 exclusive of the mini-account within ch 11) when the sixth Seal is broken and the Day of the Lord commences.
There is one group which is not included in the Resurrection of the Dead in Christ and the Rapture of the Elect on the Day of the Lord: those who have been martyred for the testimony of Christ Jesus.
The martyred Saints have to wait until their number is complete; that is what they were told when the fifth Seal was opened. The last two to join them are the Two Witnesses and thus they complete the number of martyrs under the fifth Seal. The Two Witnesses precede Christ's parousia and they stay during the second half of the one 'seven.' They are killed at the end of the one 'seven' and only after they are resurrected from death and taken up is the First Resurrection complete.
So I agree, we're in for a rough time as we have to go through the Great Tribulation which begins at the midpoint of the one 'seven' and goes until the Day of the Lord starts. Those lucky enough to make it that far will see Jesus coming with His Holy ones resurrected from Paradise. Those who perish during the Great Tribulation as martyrs will have an even greater reward.
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RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, - 5/20/2008 11:08:05 PM
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Sinner-Saint
Posts: 485
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tsnody2001
I'm sorry, but after my own careful study, as well as reading the writings of many godly men, I think the Scriptures are clear: "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." (Rev. 3:10) God will NOT let His church go through the Tribulation. But take heed to the letters He had for the seven churches.....
I'm sorry as well, you're putting much too much emphasis on the English translation of tereo ek in the Greek. John is the only one to use that language and he uses it twice, once as you have quoted and the other in John 17:15
My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one.
With the exception of the Disciple Jesus loved, all the Apostles were martyred. Yet, God watched out over them and none of the were lost: they never gave up their faith!
So Revelation 3:10 is not the iron-clad verse you make it out to be. Remember: both Pre-Trib and Post-Trib eschatology students use this verse but with wildly different interpretations! The only real interpretation is that if we endure patiently like the Apostles did, then God will watch out for us and we won't be lost!
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RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, - 5/21/2008 12:07:31 AM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1269
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
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quote:
I'm sorry as well, you're putting much too much emphasis on the English translation of tereo ek in the Greek. John is the only one to use that language and he uses it twice, once as you have quoted and the other in John 17:15
That's absolutely correct. That verse's language has been oft abused, but it certainly proves nothing either way in this debate. But it does promise the important thing in this debate - no matter where we are during the tribulation (assuming, of course, Christ returns in our lifetime... Which is entirely up to Him), God will see us through. He is faithful. That's enough.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, - 5/21/2008 10:47:45 AM
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tsnody2001
Posts: 78
Joined: 4/29/2008
From: Terre Haute, IN
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I do understand this debate is important, but I also believe God is in control no matter our understanding of Scripture. Regardless if we are raptured before or not, God is perfectly able to (and will) keep those who are His. If we get to go through the one "seven" then believers will have the awesome and terrible privilege of seeing His word unfold before our eyes. It will be terrible in that day, but knowing that it is ushering in our salvation will give us great joy, peace, and a renewed fervency to preach the gospel. NO, I am NOT trying to escape the Trib by believing a false doctrine. That day is needed for the destruction of sin. Pre-trib rapture is simply my understanding after the studying I have done. My understanding has changed about some things over the years of study and prayer, and my position on the rapture is just as likely to change. If God brings up kings and marks their days to reign, and if He can harden or soften the heart of a Pharoah (sp?), then all I am is in His hands, and my end-all goal is to be tranformed by the renewing of my mind into the image of His Son, Jesus- nothing else.
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RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, - 5/21/2008 11:53:10 AM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3320
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tsnody2001
I do understand this debate is important, but I also believe God is in control no matter our understanding of Scripture. Regardless if we are raptured before or not, God is perfectly able to (and will) keep those who are His. If we get to go through the one "seven" then believers will have the awesome and terrible privilege of seeing His word unfold before our eyes. It will be terrible in that day, but knowing that it is ushering in our salvation will give us great joy, peace, and a renewed fervency to preach the gospel. NO, I am NOT trying to escape the Trib by believing a false doctrine. That day is needed for the destruction of sin. Pre-trib rapture is simply my understanding after the studying I have done. My understanding has changed about some things over the years of study and prayer, and my position on the rapture is just as likely to change. If God brings up kings and marks their days to reign, and if He can harden or soften the heart of a Pharoah (sp?), then all I am is in His hands, and my end-all goal is to be tranformed by the renewing of my mind into the image of His Son, Jesus- nothing else.
Your heart is perfect, so that means you have the extra oil to endure.
The scriptures are clear, our interpretations are vague. But, as it all
unveils, those seeking the face of God will truly be set-apart and kept.
Those not yet established may or may not fall away. We will have to be
sure to be ready to help our brethren.
As we truly study, our vision will constantly change as our understanding
increases. If our theory is set in stone, we will never come to understanding.
In the final unveiling, I am convinced we will all be wrong.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, - 5/21/2008 1:01:06 PM
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chrystar
Posts: 47
Joined: 12/10/2005
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Sinner-saint
You make some great points!- especially in your reply to tsnody, I do agree that rev is not a novel and there are parrell accouns, but it is still written to provide a general sequence of events The bottom line is that if the rapture occurs when the dead rise, the dead do not rise until near the end of rev, which no matter what viewpoint you agree with you have to put that it is after the wraths and the judgements( i.e tribulation) have been poured out. Inorder for your explantion to be true it would mean that in actuallity Christ comes down, gathers us, goes back and then comes back for his "second-coming"..Ihave heard this argument before, but the gaping hole in the theory is why dose John make a point to state that the resurection in chap 20, is the FIRST, which is mention in the same paragrpah after Satan is bound, which logicaly would be after the tribulation, I cant see how parrell accounts would apply to THIS verse FIRST MEANS FIRST.
But I think we actually see eye-to-eye on the main point of the issue more then we diagree so my hat off to ya!!!
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zug-zug
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RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, - 5/21/2008 6:25:58 PM
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Sinner-Saint
Posts: 485
Joined: 10/5/2006
Status: offline
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Chrystar: Thank-you for your kind compliments.
As to the first Resurrection, yes, this one is the first. There are two Resurrections that are mentioned in the Bible: Dan 12:1 vs. 12:2; Mt 24:32-3, 46 vs. 25:31; John 5:25 vs. 5:28-9; and Rev 20:4 vs. 20:11-12, 15.
The first Resurrection is only for the Living.
The second Resurrection brings forth both Living and Dead souls from Paradise/Hades.
The first Resurrection happens largely on the Day of the Lord and is complete at the end of the one 'seven.'
The second Resurrection happens at the conclusion of the Millennium after the insurrection of the seventh head.
The first Resurrection includes three groups:
1. The Dead in Christ (may include faithful Jews before Christ like Daniel and Job),
2. Christians who are still alive after the Great Tribulation when it is cut short by the Day of the Lord.
3. Martyred Saints included under the fifth Seal.
The second Resurrection includes two groups:
1. the Living from the Millennium (Israel+) and,
2. all of Hades (the wicked dead) backward from the time of Cain forward to the end of the Millennium.
The reason John doesn't pronounce the first Resurrection until the end of the one 'seven' is that it is not complete until the martyrs' number is complete and that doesn't happen until the Two Witnesses are killed and brought back to life and subsequently lifted up.
The two main groups of the Living resurrected and raptured on the Day of the Lord in the first Resurrection are brought out of the Great Tribulation at the sixth Seal. They are safe in Heaven (third level: in the presence of the Father in the Temple) before the seventh Seal is broken and the Scroll can be read so that the 'desolations which have been decreed' (Dan 9:26) are able to go forth.
The Church is not destined or slated for God's Wrath (Rom 5:9; 1Th 1:10; 5:9).
The wheat (Elect) is gathered into the barn (Heaven) and then the tares (wicked) are burned in the field (world) - Mt 13:24-30.
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RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, - 5/21/2008 9:23:42 PM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 288
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: chrystar
Just fyi
. 14We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18Therefore encourage each other with these words.(NIV) 2 Thess 4:14-18
This verse tells you that there will be no rapture ( i.e cuaght up in the air) until Jesus descndeds, i.e returns. So the Rapture CANNOT occur before Jesus returns,. Well when is that you ask?
4I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.(NIV Rev 20:4-5)
This happens in Chapt 20, well after the Tribulation and well after all the plauges and bowels- notice the word FIRST in this. Meaning there is not one before, but there is one after.First means first
This is bibical proof, based on what the bible says, it is NOT my interpertaion, simply basic logic based on reading comprehension ex:
I used to be a pre-tribber, way back in the day, but studying the bible on my own lead me to this, and I saw my Pre-trribb belifs shattered. BUt again you can lead a horse to water but ya cant make em drink!
Shalom, chrystar!
Well done! Now, your next step is to also determine that Posttrib, as Posttribbers will present it, doesn't work, either. Then, if you pursue similar logic, you will find that Midtrib or Pre-Wrath doesn't work and neither does Partial Rapture! (And, with all due respect to Preterists, Preterism doesn't work, either, ESPECIALLY when one takes a literal viewpoint on the Scriptures.)
That will lead you into relatively uncharted waters, ... but that's okay! It's exciting to see the Bible without all the rhetoric of eschatological positions trying to dictate which way a person should view what he (or she) is reading and clouding the issues!
Just hug close to the Lord and let HIM be your guide.
Retrobyter
P.S. Allow me to give you a slight variant on the verses you quoted above:
14 We believe that Yeshua` died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Yeshua` those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from the sky, with a loud command, with the voice of the first messenger and with the shofar call of God, and the dead in the Messiah will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And in this way we will be with the Lord forever. 18Therefore encourage each other with these words.
1 Thess 4:14-18, NIV with edit
The question remains, "Where will the Lord be forever?" NOT "IN HEAVEN!" Instead, He will be King over Isra'el, seated on the throne of David, FOREVER! (Luke 1:30-33)
< Message edited by Retrobyter -- 5/21/2008 9:41:09 PM >
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God will never abolish His Torah; He merely sent His Son to COMPLETE it so we aren't FORCED to keep it! (It's still a good idea, however.)
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RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, - 5/22/2008 1:12:23 AM
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Retrobyter
Posts: 288
Joined: 8/23/2007
From: Florida
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
The HOLY SPIRIT truly "leads" us into all truth.
Well this is true, but I hear people with wildly different eschatologies, ideas, timelines, and timing all claiming they prayed and the Holy Spirit showed them the answer...
So, just because one is led to believe in a certain perspective, doesn't necessarily mean it came from the Holy Spirit; obviously, some of us are deluding ourselves.
I will stand on the test of Scripture and to that point, I think that looking at Bible prophecy as a linear narrative which enumerates a certain sequence of events allows me to put the whole of prophecy together around certain specific and unique events so that a general sequence-of-events can predict the relative placement of the Rapture.
This methodology is a new paradigm in eschatology. It has the advantage of being able to found itself on the major books/passages concerning the end-times and bring a holistic approach that can discern the forest for the trees which finds coherent overall framework that doesn't have the problems some other methods/schools of eschatology have.
It led me to conclude for a Pre-Wrath viewpoint which I am more than willing to discuss.
Like I said, the HS "leads" us to truth.
I was a pre-tribber [hard core].
But, following the leading for 40 plus years,
I came to a pre-wrath conclusion, but also realize
that that may be just as wrong as the others.
So, technically, I am a none-of-the-above, but for label
sake fall in the post-trib which includes pre-wrath arena.
I think that most camps "agree" on the Resurrection.
It's the man-made doctrines that confuse us with "rapture."
The important thing is to be ready, to have our lamps lit, with
extra oil for the extended stay. When the bridegroom crieth,
we will in fact rise to "meet Him in the air." That's all it says.
All the other commentary is added for drama.
Baruch Haba BaShem Yahuah.
Blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD.
Shalom, Lapidoth.
Right you are. I've had a similar awakening to Pre-trib and also discovered that none of the others come close to the truth as presented by different books of the Bible. I've also found that, unless you really MURDER them as per those who believe in Replacement Theology or in Amillennialism or Postmillennialism and accept a purely Preterist point of view with all of the allegorical interpretations (or "spiritual" interpretations, falsely so-called), NONE of the classic eschatological positions adequately portray the OT prophecies (The Navi'im of the Tanakh)!
I, too, have become a "none-of-the-above." About the closest thing I can think of calling myself would be a particular kind of Partial Preterist of sorts with Posttrib tendancies, and I only call myself this much because of how I read Matthew 24 & 25, Mark 13 and Luke 21. These passages, often called the "Olivet Discourse," I believe WERE partially fulfilled by the events leading up, during, and shortly after the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in 70 A.D. HOWEVER, certainly not ALL of the Lord's prophecies were fulfilled literally by that chain of events, and I find some of the fulfillment will be accomplished at the Second Coming of our Lord Yeshua` haMashiach (Jesus the Christ).
Even my "church-going" has morphed into attending a Messianic synagogue! Although I don't see eye-to-eye on all issues with them, either, I find them far closer to the truth of God's Word than other groups. However, as a relatively new denomination (albeit old in historical context), they have opted to accept one of the classic points of view. They know that there are inconsistencies, but they currently have nothing better by which to replace it. (I hope I can be instrumental in helping to change that.)
Now, I grew up as an independent, Bible-believing, fundamental Baptist and as such was never much of one for signs and miracles such as speaking in tongues or healings to which many Messianic believers adhere. HOWEVER, I remain open-minded to the power of the Ruach haKodesh (the Holy Spirit) of God, for I know that He CAN work such miracles, if He has a mind to do so. I just believe that, for the most part, He does NOT have that mind to do so! Seems to me, that whenever miracles were performed in the Gospels, they were a DIRECT PROOF of an appropriate message, and that message ALWAYS was a proclamation of the good news about the Kingdom!
For example, look at the following verses:
Matt 4:23-25
23 And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.
24 And his fame went throughout all Syria: and they brought unto him all sick people that were taken with divers diseases and torments, and those which were possessed with devils, and those which were lunatick, and those that had the palsy; and he healed them.
25 And there followed him great multitudes of people from Galilee, and from Decapolis, and from Jerusalem, and from Judaea, and from beyond Jordan.
KJV
The Complete Jewish Bible says it this way:
23 Yeshua went all over the Galil teaching in their synagogues, proclaiming the Good News of the Kingdom, and healing people from every kind of disease and sickness. 24 Wor of him spread throughout all Syria, and people brought to him all who were ill, suffering from various diseases and pains, and those held in the power of demons, and epileptics and paralytics: and he healed them. 25 Huge crowds followed him from the Galil, the Ten Towns, Yerushalayim, Y'hudah, and `Ever-HaYarden."
The miracles ALWAYS validated the message! If miracles were performed, you will always find a proclamation of the gospel of the Kingdom somewhere close by.
Ironically, since the main thrust of Messianic Judaism is toward the Jews, if the message is correctly presented, then God's Ruach haKodesh MAY be so inclined to provide those miracles which validate the message! This is reminiscent of 1 Cor. 1:18-25:
18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching [heralding; proclaiming] to save them that believe.
22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
KJV
That's why I keep an open mind.
Retrobyter
_____________________________
God will never abolish His Torah; He merely sent His Son to COMPLETE it so we aren't FORCED to keep it! (It's still a good idea, however.)
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RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, - 5/22/2008 7:51:28 AM
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meerkat
Posts: 27
Joined: 4/12/2008
Status: offline
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Retrobyter,
quote:
I, too, have become a "none-of-the-above." About the closest thing I can think of calling myself would be a particular kind of Partial Preterist of sorts with Posttrib tendancies, and I only call myself this much because of how I read Matthew 24 & 25, Mark 13 and Luke 21. These passages, often called the "Olivet Discourse," I believe WERE partially fulfilled by the events leading up, during, and shortly after the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in 70 A.D. HOWEVER, certainly not ALL of the Lord's prophecies were fulfilled literally by that chain of events, and I find some of the fulfillment will be accomplished at the Second Coming of our Lord Yeshua` haMashiach (Jesus the Christ).
I was interested when reading the Olivet in Luke that the sequence is interrupted at Luke 21:12 By "but before all these things ........" which were the wars, pestilence etc sights and signs from heaven. Then goes on to say about those in Judea fleeing, then a period of vengence and distress and Jerusalem being trodden down of the gentiles until the times of the gentiles be fulfilled, then the signs in the sun, moon, stars and the son of man coming in a cloud.
To me the sequence seems to be Luke 21:12 Starts with the persecution of the apostles ..... then 70 AD when those in Judea are to flee when they see Jerusalem compassed with enemies (the abomination of desolation is referred to in Matt 24:15 with Jesus telling them that are in Judea to flee to the mountains also at Matt 24:21 it says that there will be great tribulation) then a period of vengence and distress for the Jews. I believe that the great tribulation has been happening for 2000 years. Then there will be the signs in the heaven. I think that Luke 21:12-22 comes first, then 8-11, then 25-28.
A day with God is as a thousand years and a thousand years as a day. The 2000 years has been the last days (2 days)
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RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, - 5/22/2008 9:12:37 AM
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x0846
Posts: 35
Joined: 5/21/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bettymackII
please type the CLEAR verse that states the church is not here during the tribulation.Thanks
“Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready.” (Rev 19)
You can't have a wedding without the bride and since the saints are the bride and they are ready it's clear they aren't in the tribulation period.
There's many more verses that tell us the church will not go through the tribulation period, do you need more or is this good enough?
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RE: IF the rapture is scriptural, - 5/22/2008 9:36:26 AM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 1971
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Retrobyter
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
The HOLY SPIRIT truly "leads" us into all truth.
Well this is true, but I hear people with wildly different eschatologies, ideas, timelines, and timing all claiming they prayed and the Holy Spirit showed them the answer...
So, just because one is led to believe in a certain perspective, doesn't necessarily mean it came from the Holy Spirit; obviously, some of us are deluding ourselves.
I will stand on the test of Scripture and to that point, I think that looking at Bible prophecy as a linear narrative which enumerates a certain sequence of events allows me to put the whole of prophecy together around certain specific and unique events so that a general sequence-of-events can predict the relative placement of the Rapture.
This methodology is a new paradigm in eschatology. It has the advantage of being able to found itself on the major books/passages concerning the end-times and bring a holistic approach that can discern the forest for the trees which finds coherent overall framework that doesn't have the problems some other methods/schools of eschatology have.
It led me to conclude for a Pre-Wrath viewpoint which I am more than willing to discuss. < | | |
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