RE: So You Are Saying We Can't Love God With All Our Heart, Soul, and Mind
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RE: So You Are Saying We Can't Love God With All Our He... - 4/12/2008 9:43:50 AM
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drmark
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quote:
We are talking about when this happens, not if it happens.
1 John 3
2Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
So, according to your interpretation of 1 John 3:2, those who die before Christ returns will not be made holy in Heaven until the moment those remaining on earth see Him as He is? Is that your understanding of the timing of entire sanctification for individual Believers?
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: So You Are Saying We Can't Love God With All Our He... - 4/12/2008 7:36:02 PM
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Ephesians4_32
Posts: 2302
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
We are talking about when this happens, not if it happens.
1 John 3
2Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
So, according to your interpretation of 1 John 3:2, those who die before Christ returns will not be made holy in Heaven until the moment those remaining on earth see Him as He is? Is that your understanding of the timing of entire sanctification for individual Believers?
When an individual sees Christ face to face, he will be like him. To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. There are no unholy people in heaven.
2 Corinthians 3
18But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
2 Corinthians 5
6Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
8We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
Hebrews 12
14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
1 Corinthians 13
12For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
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RE: So You Are Saying We Can't Love God With All Our He... - 4/12/2008 7:45:22 PM
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drmark
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quote:
When an individual sees Christ face to face, he will be like him. To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. There are no unholy people in heaven. Well, all I can say is, this is a very unorthodox interpretation of the verse given that almost all commentators consider John to be referring to Christ's second coming and not a specific Believer stepping into the presence of the Lord for the first time. If you wish to use this as Scriptural "proof" that holiness can only be obtained at physical death, I guess that's your perogative, Eph4_32. I personally will abide by the dozens of passages that command holiness, righteousness, perfection, and purity in this life, all by the grace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: So You Are Saying We Can't Love God With All Our He... - 4/12/2008 8:02:03 PM
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Ephesians4_32
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
When an individual sees Christ face to face, he will be like him. To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. There are no unholy people in heaven. Well, all I can say is, this is a very unorthodox interpretation of the verse given that almost all commentators consider John to be referring to Christ's second coming and not a specific Believer stepping into the presence of the Lord for the first time.
Those believers will see Christ for the first time. They will be like Him. Those who have already gone to be with the Lord, have already become like Him.
quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
If you wish to use this as Scriptural "proof" that holiness can only be obtained at physical death, I guess that's your perogative, Eph4_32. I personally will abide by the dozens of passages that command holiness, righteousness, perfection, and purity in this life, all by the grace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit!
Christians who disagree with your interpretation of scripture are being sanctified. You boast in saying that you personally will abide by the dozens of passages that command holiness, righteousness, perfection, and purity in this life, all by the grace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit! God is working in every single Christian on earth sanctifying and perfecting them. He is working in His time frame. To prematurely claim that one has reached sinless perfection is to not see the pride of claiming that "I will abide by the word of God and if you desire to do otherwise, that's your perogative!" I personally want to abide by the word of God and I can't claim that other Christians don't want to. I personally believe that all Christians love the Lord. It would be absurd to call someone a Christian and then suggest that he's a Christian who doesn't want to be holy. I don't understand your viewpoint.
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RE: So You Are Saying We Can't Love God With All Our He... - 4/13/2008 12:24:32 AM
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drmark
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quote:
I don't understand your viewpoint. Nor do I understand yours! If a Christian truly loves the Lord then s/he will abide by Scriptural commands to be holy, right here and right now. This is not boasting or pride, Eph4_32 - it is submitting to the perfect Will of God! Christians need to stop "wanting to be holy" and start being holy this moment, by the grace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit. God may be working in every single Christian, but it's still up to every single Christian to accept His work and put it into practice. When we do, then we are loving God with all our heart, soul, and mind and that is simple sinless perfection.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: So You Are Saying We Can't Love God With All Our He... - 4/13/2008 9:27:53 AM
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Ephesians4_32
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For a person to claim sinless perfection is sinful. That person is no more sinless than the brother who loves the Lord and doesn't claim to have already become like Christ.
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RE: So You Are Saying We Can't Love God With All Our He... - 4/13/2008 9:43:34 AM
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drmark
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quote:
For a person to claim sinless perfection is sinful. If that is how God has convicted you, Eph4_32, then who am I to disagree. God has convicted me that if I claim to love Him with all my heart, soul, and mind yet continue to willfully disobey His known Will, then I am sinful. I choose to follow God's conviction for my life and I would appreciate if you would avoid making unsupportable generalizations about other people's sin!
quote:
That person is no more sinless than the brother who loves the Lord and doesn't claim to have already become like Christ. One last time, no one living this moment has "already become like Christ" according to your definition from 1 John 3:2. We are commanded to have the mind, attitude, heart, motive, intent, and love of Christ in this world, NOT the glorified body of Christ. By the very definition of sin, a Christian who lives more like Christ is more sinless than one who lives less like Christ. It should be the goal of every child of God to draw closer to Him day-by-day
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: So You Are Saying We Can't Love God With All Our He... - 4/13/2008 5:13:32 PM
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restored08
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32
quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
When an individual sees Christ face to face, he will be like him. To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. There are no unholy people in heaven. Well, all I can say is, this is a very unorthodox interpretation of the verse given that almost all commentators consider John to be referring to Christ's second coming and not a specific Believer stepping into the presence of the Lord for the first time.
Those believers will see Christ for the first time. They will be like Him. Those who have already gone to be with the Lord, have already become like Him.
quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
If you wish to use this as Scriptural "proof" that holiness can only be obtained at physical death, I guess that's your perogative, Eph4_32. I personally will abide by the dozens of passages that command holiness, righteousness, perfection, and purity in this life, all by the grace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit!
Christians who disagree with your interpretation of scripture are being sanctified. You boast in saying that you personally will abide by the dozens of passages that command holiness, righteousness, perfection, and purity in this life, all by the grace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit! God is working in every single Christian on earth sanctifying and perfecting them. He is working in His time frame. To prematurely claim that one has reached sinless perfection is to not see the pride of claiming that "I will abide by the word of God and if you desire to do otherwise, that's your perogative!" I personally want to abide by the word of God and I can't claim that other Christians don't want to. I personally believe that all Christians love the Lord. It would be absurd to call someone a Christian and then suggest that he's a Christian who doesn't want to be holy. I don't understand your viewpoint.
I am somewhat in agreement with drmark. When a person becomes saved and Holy Ghost filled he/she begin to worship Him in Spirit and in Truth and communing with Him on a daily basis. And to commune with Him and serve Him there is always a time when you are in His presence. I believe we are face to face with Christ when we encounter people who are living and walking as Christ did. There are a lot of ways that Christ makes His presence known in our everyday lives.
_____________________________
Titus 3:3 "For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another."
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RE: So You Are Saying We Can't Love God With All Our He... - 4/13/2008 8:02:41 PM
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Ephesians4_32
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
I choose to follow God's conviction for my life and I would appreciate if you would avoid making unsupportable generalizations about other people's sin!
Excuse me? Aren't you the person who said:
quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
If you wish to use this as Scriptural "proof" that holiness can only be obtained at physical death, I guess that's your perogative, Eph4_32. I personally will abide by the dozens of passages that command holiness, righteousness, perfection, and purity in this life, all by the grace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit!
quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
ORIGINAL Ephesians4_32
That person is no more sinless than the brother who loves the Lord and doesn't claim to have already become like Christ. One last time, no one living this moment has "already become like Christ" according to your definition from 1 John 3:2. We are commanded to have the mind, attitude, heart, motive, intent, and love of Christ in this world, NOT the glorified body of Christ.
I said nothing about a glorified body. You don't know another person's heart. We can't even know our own hearts! We, as Christians, don't go around saying that we've reached sinless perfection!
Jeremiah 17
19 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
We ask God to show us our sin:
Psalm 139
23Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts:
24And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.
Ephesians 4
13Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Philippians 3
12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect, but I follow after, that I may apprehend that for which I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
Romans 7
18 To will is present with me, but how to perform that
which is good, I find not.
quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
By the very definition of sin, a Christian who lives more like Christ is more sinless than one who lives less like Christ. It should be the goal of every child of God to draw closer to Him day-by-day
Romans 3
10As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
So if you commit one sin or one hundred sins you are guilty. In fact, you are guilty of all.
All Christians have the imputed righteousness of Christ. So we aren't lined up on a staircase waiting to get God's approval. We aren't keeping score so that we can prove to God that we did more than Brother So-and-so. God isn't keeping score either, because He has imputed the righteousness of Christ to His children. Jesus paid for our sins.
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RE: So You Are Saying We Can't Love God With All Our He... - 4/13/2008 10:31:41 PM
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drmark
Posts: 3122
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quote:
I said nothing about a glorified body. That's because you don't understand 1 John 3:2.
quote:
We, as Christians, don't go around saying that we've reached sinless perfection! Nor should we go around saying, "Oh well, I guess I'm going to sin every day in thought, word, and deed so God must understand my sinfulness or He wouldn't have made me like this".
quote:
We ask God to show us our sin: Yes, and then we ask God to wash away all our iniquity and cleanse us from our sin (Ps 51:2), not just cover it up!
quote:
So if you commit one sin or one hundred sins you are guilty. In fact, you are guilty of all. Which is exactly why we need to love God with all our heart, soul, and mind!
quote:
All Christians have the imputed righteousness of Christ. And some Christians have the imparted righteousness of Christ. Actually, I believe that all Christians have the imparted righteousness of Christ but only some seem to be aware, willing or motivated to use it!
quote:
God isn't keeping score either, because He has imputed the righteousness of Christ to His children. So we just keep on sinning and everything's cool because the Man Upstairs can't keep score anyway? I can't believe you're really posting this, Eph4_32, because I think I know you better than that. Don't you see where this kind of faulty theology ends up?
Jesus came to save us from our sins, not merely in our sins. There is no imputed righteousness without imparted righteousness. Our standing with Christ must be the same as our state in Christ. The Atonement has changed the nature of the human soul, not the nature of sin. Jesus not only paid for our sins on the Cross, He also rose again to give us victory over our sins. Praise His Holy Name!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: So You Are Saying We Can't Love God With All Our He... - 4/14/2008 2:58:54 AM
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Ephesians4_32
Posts: 2302
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quote:
ORIGINAL: restored08
I am somewhat in agreement with drmark. When a person becomes saved and Holy Ghost filled he/she begin to worship Him in Spirit and in Truth and communing with Him on a daily basis. And to commune with Him and serve Him there is always a time when you are in His presence. I believe we are face to face with Christ when we encounter people who are living and walking as Christ did. There are a lot of ways that Christ makes His presence known in our everyday lives.
Romans 8
9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
His Presence is with us. His Spirit lives in us. But we are not seeing Him face to face...yet.
1 Corinthians 13
12For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
1 John 3
2Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
John 20
29Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
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RE: So You Are Saying We Can't Love God With All Our He... - 4/14/2008 7:22:04 AM
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Ephesians4_32
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
Nor should we go around saying, "Oh well, I guess I'm going to sin every day in thought, word, and deed so God must understand my sinfulness or He wouldn't have made me like this".
I don't say that. And you have never seen me say that in all that I've typed.
quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32
We ask God to show us our sin:
Yes, and then we ask God to wash away all our iniquity and cleanse us from our sin (Ps 51:2), not just cover it up!
And I ask Him to guide me in all I do.
quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32
So if you commit one sin or one hundred sins you are guilty. In fact, you are guilty of all.
Which is exactly why we need to love God with all our heart, soul, and mind!
Which is why we needed Christ to pay our sin debt. God be merciful to me because I just might have failed You today.
Because of the LORD's great love we are not consumed,for his compassions never fail. They are new every morning; great is your faithfulness. (Lamentations 3:22-23)
quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32
All Christians have the imputed righteousness of Christ.
And some Christians have the imparted righteousness of Christ.
quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32
God isn't keeping score either, because He has imputed the righteousness of Christ to His children.
Actually, I believe that all Christians have the imparted righteousness of Christ but only some seem to be aware, willing or motivated to use it!
Oh, are you saying that some of God's children who have this imparted righteousness are bad? Isn't that an oxymoron? They won't let Him do His work? Do you think His children have more power than He does?
quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32
God isn't keeping score either, because He has imputed the righteousness of Christ to His children.
So we just keep on sinning and everything's cool because the Man Upstairs can't keep score anyway? I can't believe you're really posting this, Eph4_32, because I think I know you better than that. Don't you see where this kind of faulty theology ends up?
I know where it ends up! It isn't faulty. Those whom He justified He also glorified. What happens in between is our sanctification. And I thank God for His mercy. Everything is cool because He Who began a good work in us will complete it.
quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
Jesus came to save us from our sins, not merely in our sins. There is no imputed righteousness without imparted righteousness. Our standing with Christ must be the same as our state in Christ. The Atonement has changed the nature of the human soul, not the nature of sin. Jesus not only paid for our sins on the Cross, He also rose again to give us victory over our sins. Praise His Holy Name!
Praise His Name indeed. Every Christian on earth is being sanctified.
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RE: So You Are Saying We Can't Love God With All Our He... - 4/14/2008 8:33:16 AM
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dboutwell
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Sorry to intrude but wanted to add my 2 cents...
Paul said, I am carnal, sold under sin. He also said sin has no more dominion over us.
At the feast of Pentecost, God had the oil poured over "leavened" loaves of bread.
IF we walked perfect lives constantly we would not be able to relate to sinners, or they would not be able to relate to us...and they are who we are to give the good news to.
We have a "sin making" machine in us and we are apt to let it kick up from time to time. We may find ourselves doing what we wish we didn't or not doing what we know we should do.
PErhaps we should take Paul's advice and just consider ourselves sold under sin and at the same time anointed by God to bring the good news to the world. When we sin, our hearts are greived, we don't "HAVE" to confess, we "want" to confess!
There is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. Walking after the Spirit is to constanlty avail ourselves of God's mercy.
To say we can't love God because we still sin from time to time is like saying a baby can't love it's parent because he is a baby. We love from the level of maturity that we have. I have a feeling that the truth is that the more we realize that we have a job to do in these present bodies we have been given, the more we will call on the Lord and the more He will give grace to do it. I have a friend who says we are not free from sin until we realize that we are free to sin. Sounds blasphemous at first but I think there's truth to it.
Creation, the fall, redemption, sanctification, glorification... was never our idea in the first place and sometime I think we get the idea it was.
We are between a rock and a hard place. We have a hip that has been put out of place by God but it makes us seek Him that much more. And, like Jacob, He is constantly changing our names. He starts what He finishes with us.
just my two cents..
Debbie
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RE: So You Are Saying We Can't Love God With All Our He... - 4/14/2008 8:35:33 AM
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drmark
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quote:
I don't say that. And you have never seen me say that in all that I've typed. No, but plenty of Christians posting on these "sin-related" threads say this very thing. Are you defending them or just telling them they are not really Christians?
quote:
God be merciful to me because I just might have failed You today. Is it possible for a Spirit-led Christian to live day-by-day in constant anxiety about some unknown failure? Is that living a victorious life in Christ?
quote:
Oh, are you saying that some of God's children who have this imparted righteousness are bad? Isn't that an oxymoron? They won't let Him do His work? Do you think His children have more power than He does? Yes, God willfully allows us to interfere with His Will. Otherwise, we would all would be saved and living as perfect holy robots. Free grace is unmerited but it still has to be appropriated and utilized.
quote:
Everything is cool because He Who began a good work in us will complete it. Even if we sin every day in thought, word, and deed? Do you have a Scripture to support this?
quote:
Every Christian on earth is being sanctified. Then why are so many not loving God with all their heart, soul, and mind? Is it His problem or ours?
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: So You Are Saying We Can't Love God With All Our He... - 4/14/2008 10:24:42 AM
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Ephesians4_32
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
Then why are so many not loving God with all their heart, soul, and mind? Is it His problem or ours?
He does things in His time frame, not ours.
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RE: So You Are Saying We Can't Love God With All Our He... - 4/14/2008 10:37:36 AM
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Ephesians4_32
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
Yes, God willfully allows us to interfere with His Will. Otherwise, we would all would be saved and living as perfect holy robots.
No one believes God created robots, not even five point Calvinists! Does Ezekiel 36 teach that we are robots?
Ezekiel 36
27And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
Gotta run.
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RE: So You Are Saying We Can't Love God With All Our He... - 4/14/2008 1:56:56 PM
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drmark
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quote:
No one believes God created robots, not even five point Calvinists! Don't take my word for it - you can read it every day on the great C/A debate thread.
quote:
Ezekiel 36:27 - And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. What a great Holiness verse, Eph4_32! So when does God do this for us? Is it possible right here and now to walk in His statutes and keep His judgements? I vote YES!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: So You Are Saying We Can't Love God With All Our He... - 4/15/2008 3:14:34 AM
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Ephesians4_32
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
I don't say that. And you have never seen me say that in all that I've typed. No, but plenty of Christians posting on these "sin-related" threads say this very thing. Are you defending them or just telling them they are not really Christians?
I'm neither defending them nor saying that they aren't Christians. If God justifies us, He also glorifies us. In between those two points is sanctification. Sanctification isn't something that might happen; it will happen!
Romans 8
28And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
We don't just think that God will sanctify the called; we know that He will do it!
Hebrews 12
6For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ephesians4_32
God be merciful to me because I just might have failed You today.
Is it possible for a Spirit-led Christian to live day-by-day in constant anxiety about some unknown failure? Is that living a victorious life in Christ?
Where do you get this idea of constant anxiety?
Luke 18
13And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
Lamentations 3
22It is of the LORD's mercies that we are not consumed, because his compassions fail not.
23They are new every morning: great is thy faithfulness.
"Morning by morning, new mercies I find."
quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
Everything is cool because He Who began a good work in us will complete it. Even if we sin every day in thought, word, and deed? Do you have a Scripture to support this?
Philippians 1
6Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
Romans 8
30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Romans 8
28And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
Do I trust God? Yes, I do!
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