quote:

ORIGINAL: cognitivemagic

Thanks science....where would we be without you?

quote:

In the fifth century.

quote:

How bad could the 5th Century be compared to this? What universe do you hail from, where you can so easily whitewash modernity and anathematize antiquity? What do you really know about the 5th Century anyway?

You had better wake up....because your floating along in the river Styx and don't yet have the sense to realize it.

quote:

You had better wake up....because your floating along in the river Styx and don't yet have the sense to realize it.

quote:

I think modern technology certain made us more effective and efficient sinners, it didn't however make us more sinful. I

quote:

My point is that science hasn't conferred survival advantages on humanity. It can't even make humans behave decently to one another....it has helped us be even more efficient killers....so my point remains true.

So what's all this "hoopla" about the benefits of science as compared to the tragedies and losses it has given us? The reply thus far is the mock to my rhetorical question "where would we be without you (i.e. science): "the Fifth Century".

Mark my words: that's as good a response as this thread is going to yield...and it ain't much of a response.

Where is the "enlightened" men that the 17th century promised to give us, ruled by "reason" rather than "dogma"? Have they not, by the murder and "death of God" ("Thus Spake Zarathustra"), so evidently ushered in the death of man?

quote:

I think the issue here is really science versus scientism. The former has helped give us clean drinking water and antibiotics

quote:

science has no advantages in the survival of any species. In fact, I think it can be plausibly argued for the reverse: all science hinders the survival of the species.

quote:

People need "clean" drinking water and anti-biotics because mankind has polluted the environment; science has only helped to increase pollution and disease exponentially.

But what about the whole range of human ills that have directly resulted from scientific findings?

Science is predicated on 'humanism'; namely, that human reason and autonomy can and will "save" mankind. Religion didn't and couldn't do it, period. So now, armed with "enlightened" self-interest and reason, mankind can finally do the job that religion was impotent to do.

Really? Really?!?!

That's what I take umbrage with.

"Man does not live by bread alone...."

quote:

ORIGINAL: cognitivemagic

quote:

I think the issue here is really science versus scientism. The former has helped give us clean drinking water and antibiotics

People need "clean" drinking water and anti-biotics because mankind has polluted the environment; science has only helped to increase pollution and disease exponentially.

But what about the whole range of human ills that have directly resulted from scientific findings?

Science is predicated on 'humanism'; namely, that human reason and autonomy can and will "save" mankind. Religion didn't and couldn't do it, period. So now, armed with "enlightened" self-interest and reason, mankind can finally do the job that religion was impotent to do.

Really? Really?!?!

That's what I take umbrage with.

"Man does not live by bread alone...."

quote:

After these things I saw another angel coming down from heaven, having great authority, and the earth was illuminated with his glory. And he cried mightily with a loud voice, saying, “Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and has become a dwelling place of demons, a prison for every foul spirit, and a cage for every unclean and hated bird! For all the nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth have become rich through the abundance of her luxury.”
And I heard another voice from heaven saying, “Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues. For her sins have reached to heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities. Render to her just as she rendered to you, and repay her double according to her works; in the cup which she has mixed, mix double for her. In the measure that she glorified herself and lived luxuriously, in the same measure give her torment and sorrow; for she says in her heart, ‘I sit as queen, and am no widow, and will not see sorrow.’ Therefore her plagues will come in one day—death and mourning and famine. And she will be utterly burned with fire, for strong is the Lord God who judges her.

“The kings of the earth who committed fornication and lived luxuriously with her will weep and lament for her, when they see the smoke of her burning, standing at a distance for fear of her torment, saying, ‘Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! For in one hour your judgment has come.’
“And the merchants of the earth will weep and mourn over her, for no one buys their merchandise anymore: merchandise of gold and silver, precious stones and pearls, fine linen and purple, silk and scarlet, every kind of citron wood, every kind of object of ivory, every kind of object of most precious wood, bronze, iron, and marble; and cinnamon and incense, fragrant oil and frankincense, wine and oil, fine flour and wheat, cattle and sheep, horses and chariots, and bodies and souls of men. The fruit that your soul longed for has gone from you, and all the things which are rich and splendid have gone from you, and you shall find them no more at all. The merchants of these things, who became rich by her, will stand at a distance for fear of her torment, weeping and wailing, and saying, ‘Alas, alas, that great city that was clothed in fine linen, purple, and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls! For in one hour such great riches came to nothing.’ Every shipmaster, all who travel by ship, sailors, and as many as trade on the sea, stood at a distance and cried out when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, ‘What is like this great city?’
“They threw dust on their heads and cried out, weeping and wailing, and saying, ‘Alas, alas, that great city, in which all who had ships on the sea became rich by her wealth! For in one hour she is made desolate.’
“Rejoice over her, O heaven, and you holy apostles and prophets, for God has avenged you on her!”

Then a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone and threw it into the sea, saying, “Thus with violence the great city Babylon shall be thrown down, and shall not be found anymore. The sound of harpists, musicians, flutists, and trumpeters shall not be heard in you anymore. No craftsman of any craft shall be found in you anymore, and the sound of a millstone shall not be heard in you anymore. The light of a lamp shall not shine in you anymore, and the voice of bridegroom and bride shall not be heard in you anymore. For your merchants were the great men of the earth, for by your sorcery all the nations were deceived. And in her was found the blood of prophets and saints, and of all who were slain on the earth.” (Revelation 18)

quote:

You must be a troll.

quote:

And another angel followed, saying, “Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she has made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.”
Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.” (Revelation 14:8-11)

quote:

Tell me, when one of your loved ones appendix is about to burst, what do you do?

quote:

You seriously prefer girls getting pregnant at age 13, people dying of old age in their thirties and a simple infection equal a death-sentence?

quote:

"But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away! For of this sort are those who creep into households and make captives of gullible women loaded down with sins, led away by various lusts, always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth...... But evil men and impostors will grow worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived." (2 Timothy 3:1-7;13)

quote:

This is the world we live in today!!! Who can deny this?

quote:

I might just as soon die from bacterial infections incurred from the surgery.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jhud

There was plenty of disease around before 'science' was widespread. Ever hear of the black plague? Malaria?

quote:

Modern medicine has made great strides since the days of the Hippocratic Oath. Disease,death and illness are a part of the natural life cycle of any living creature. Though it has to make you wonder just how many of these things they have actual cures for but never disclose. Makes sense, come up with a cure the folks making the drugs lose $$$$$$

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jhud

quote:

Modern medicine has made great strides since the days of the Hippocratic Oath. Disease,death and illness are a part of the natural life cycle of any living creature. Though it has to make you wonder just how many of these things they have actual cures for but never disclose. Makes sense, come up with a cure the folks making the drugs lose $$$$$$

Sounds like the plot of a really cheesy movie.

quote:

quote:

Tell me, when one of your loved ones appendix is about to burst, what do you do?

If my appendix burst, there's no guarantee any doctor can save me....he may or may not; I might just as soon die from bacterial infections incurred from the surgery.

quote:

Are you SERIOUS!?!? When one of your loved ones has an appendix that is about to burst... you will leave them on their bed to die, in stead of TAKING THEM TO A HOSPITAL!?

quote:

Oh yes....read the statistics in Harper's Index, under "Medicine", about the percentage of doctor's that actually wash and sanitize properly; or the percentage of Nursing staff that would recommend family and friends to their own hospitals of employment for treatment.....as well as statistics of death in hospital patients not related to their original treatment; but don't take my word for it; here's an article to show you the real world, Neo:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3131089/

And since I had contracted a life-threatening virus during my own stay at a hospital, and had to be quarantined, I know from actual experience that it can happen!!!

Whether I take them to a hospital or not is irrelevant to my argument: in logic, you have committed the ad hominem circumstantial fallacy. But I'm sure violating the rules of logic and argumentation are less advantageous than rhetorical sound-bites; I'm sure you'd rather win the person than the argument here.

And why hasn't anyone done some sort of cost/benefit analysis of "science" and given an actual answer to my thread, instead of replying with red herrings and ad hominem arguments. Doesn't anyone study formal logic anymore? Didn't you take "critical thinking" in Community College? I guess it's easier to attack a person than it is their argument. At least I give responses to your post that directly address your objections; can't you at least try to rebut my position without resorting to attacks?

Obviously, you like to live in a bubble of ignorance about the "real" world.

quote:

Speaking of logical fallacies, have you ever considered the Hasty Generalization?