RE: Do you think All Sins are Equal? (Full Version)

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drmark -> RE: Do you think All Sins are Equal? (2/25/2008 5:38:30 PM)

quote:

Write this one down drmark - I agree wholeheartedly with what you said.

Daryl, as I have told many others on these forums, I suspect we agree on far more than we disagree! It's more about the way we perceive each others' positions than the positions themselves.



VCO -> RE: Do you think All Sins are Equal? (4/23/2008 4:41:28 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames

Well, it seems to this ole country boy that Scripture speaks to a difference in sins;

Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit cannot be forgiven, other sins can.
. . .


U&U

Technically, it is the ONLY SIN anyone goes to Hell for, the rest were paid for on the Cross. But I do not believe that makes all other sins LESS HORRIBLE. His dieing on the Cross was an act of Love and Mercy, and had He NOT taken our place on the cross for them, every sin we are guilty of (thoughts, words, deeds, and omittions) would ALSO be worthy of the EXACT SAME OR EQUAL PUNISHMENT as blaspheming the Holy Spirit's work of convincing us in the heart to receive Jesus as LORD. Rejecting all that info about Jesus and choosing to NOT receive Jesus as Lord, is refusing the ONLY way to receive Salvation. One's own choice then determines if one has committed the Unforgivable Sin that sends one to Hell, NOT that God thinks it is WORSE than the others. That is why that sin was not paid for on the cross.

All sin is Equally HORRIBLE in God's site, that IS WHY Jesus had to die on the Cross. Because He loved us enough to show Mercy to us and pay for all of our sins except Blaspheming the Holy Spirit on the Cross, does not make those sins less OFFENSIVE to God. They were simply sins that have been PAID IN FULL, whereas Blaspheming the Holy Spirit is an EQUAL sin debt that REMAINS OUTSTANDING.



valiant007 -> RE: Do you think All Sins are Equal? (4/23/2008 8:22:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: hawkfan428

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames

Well, it seems to this ole country boy that Scripture speaks to a difference in sins;

Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit cannot be forgiven, other sins can.

(Mat 12:31) Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

Some sins lead to death others do not;

(1Jo 5:16) If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

(1Jo 5:17) All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

So yes, all sins are not equal.


Sorry to disagree guys. What Jesus is saying to me here is that the only sin that will not be forgiven is that which has already been spoken of and that is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Which is, attributing the workings of Satan to the Holy Spirit. The word 'manner' in all manner of sins, means everything apart from this wil be forgiven, period.
Jesus did not suffer in degrees on the cross, one level for one sin and one for another, He suffered and died once and for all the just for the unjust.

Thanks
RC



RC, I think for the first time on this forum, I agree with you. LOL. Seriously, though, blasphemy of the holy spirit is the most severe sin of all.



iamjc-s -> RE: Do you think All Sins are Equal? (4/23/2008 8:45:31 AM)

-
Pr 3:32 (NIV)
for the Lord detests a perverse man but takes the upright into his confidence.

Pr 11:20 (NIV)
The Lord detests men of perverse heart but he delights in those whose ways are blameless.

Pr 16:5 (NIV)
The Lord detests all the proud of heart. Be sure of this: They will not go unpunished.

For more the Lord detests, go to: http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?section=0&word=detests&version=niv
-



DaveW -> RE: Do you think All Sins are Equal? (4/23/2008 11:39:47 AM)

quote:

All sin is Equally HORRIBLE in God's sight,

"Whatsoever is not of faith is sin." THat would include anything that is obeying Him but not done from faith, such as doing it (or not doing it) from tradition, or being forced by someone else, etc.

How is that "equally horrible?"



missleyna -> RE: Do you think All Sins are Equal? (4/23/2008 1:57:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames

Well, it seems to this ole country boy that Scripture speaks to a difference in sins;

Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit cannot be forgiven, other sins can.

(Mat 12:31) Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

Some sins lead to death others do not;

(1Jo 5:16) If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

(1Jo 5:17) All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

So yes, all sins are not equal.

Thanks
RC



I wanted to scroll down before I answered- I agree with you on this. But I was actually only going to quote the blasphemy one...



drcain -> RE: Do you think All Sins are Equal? (4/23/2008 3:06:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Szaftoo

Sin is sin in the eyes of the Lord, however, I believe the consequences are not always the same.

There ya go. I think this is true also. I have studied a bit about this topic from the other thread.

I said I think that God sees sin as equal, and still do. How He decided to punish the sinner for their particular sin is another matter, and in that reference, then you could say that there are different levels of sin.

But I also see the common thread in the answers. Sin is sin, no matter if it is one small lie [sm=icon_smile_evil.gif] or a mass murder against a race of people. [sm=icon_smile_faint.gif] In that regard, God sees the sin as being sin.

Interesting topic though. A few cups of coffee to discuss this one for sure. [8D]



crh737 -> RE: Do you think All Sins are Equal? (4/23/2008 6:26:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jfaye

So--do you think there are greater and lesser sins in God's eyes?

Can you be successful at resisting the ones listed in the 10 commandments
and yet have other sins you wrestle with and still be considered mostly successful
at being mostly sinless?[sm=icon_smile_halo.gif]


I believe Sin is the same. Jesus said What is the difference between a liar and a murder? The answer: Nothing, because sin is sin.
If you break one commandment then you broke them all according to the law.
Thankfully we are dead to the law and we live in Christ. For if the law be our fulfillment then Christ died in vain. (See Galatians)
According to the Gospels Jesus laid out our laws which is Love God and our Neighbors as ourselve and yet we have problems with that [&:]

However with knowledge of Christ we know Our God is faithful and Just to forgive us and to me this is a Big Key.

Through Him beyond my ownself I was able to forgive those who have deeply sinned against me. I thank Him for His mercy as this leads me to believe He has been very merciful towards me.

As humanoids sometimes I do not think we can comprehend the depths of His ways and even in our own belief in knowledge, we actually know nothing.
It's our belief and unbelief thar holds us captives
CRH
sorry for any typos I'm on 2 y/o alert!



VCO -> RE: Do you think All Sins are Equal? (4/24/2008 2:54:31 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaveW

quote:

All sin is Equally HORRIBLE in God's sight,

"Whatsoever is not of faith is sin." THat would include anything that is obeying Him but not done from faith, such as doing it (or not doing it) from tradition, or being forced by someone else, etc.

How is that "equally horrible?"


U&U

James 2:10 (GW)
10 If someone obeys all of God's laws except one, that person is guilty of breaking all of them.

Romans 2:6-11 (ISV)
6 For he will repay everyone according to what that person has done:
7 eternal life to those who strive for glory, honor, and immortality by patiently doing good;
8 but wrath and fury for those who in their selfish pride refuse to believe the truth and practice wickedness instead.
9 There will be suffering and anguish for every person who practices doing evil, for Jews first and for Greeks as well.
10 But there will be glory, honor, and peace for every person who practices doing good, for Jews first and for Greeks as well.
11 For God does not show partiality.

Matthew 5:28 (GW)
28 But I can guarantee that whoever looks with lust at a woman has already committed adultery in his heart.

Matthew 5:21-22 (HCSB)
21 “You have heard that it was said to our ancestors, Do not murder, and whoever murders will be subject to judgment.
22 But I tell you, everyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Fool!’ will be subject to the Sanhedrin. But whoever says, ‘You moron!’ will be subject to hellfire.

Revelation 20:15 (NKJV)
15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

ONLY we human beings think of sins as little or big, while God thinks of one sin (no matter how small we think it is) as EQUAL to breaking ALL of His Laws. That is why Paul said:

1 Timothy 1:15 (NKJV)
15 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.

We are not better than Jeffrey Dahmer, we are sinners as bad as he was. Those of us who have repented and received Jesus Christ as LORD, have our sins forgiven, but NOT because of anything we did, because even that ability to repent and receive Jesus Christ as LORD was a GIFT of God:

Ephesians 2:8-10 (NKJV)
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

There are ONLY two kinds of sinners, Saved sinners and Unsaved sinners!



DaveW -> RE: Do you think All Sins are Equal? (4/24/2008 6:26:56 AM)

VCO, I am thinking you are truly not seeing the question I am asking or the point I make.

You are looking at over-all eternal consequences. We both agree on the eternal consequences of sin.

However, I am looking at specific statements like "unforgivable sin," "greater sin," "more tolerable in the day of judgement," etc. that indicate IN SCRIPTURE there is some kind of differentiation. You seem to be totally ignoring these statements. This is what the OP's question is all about.



SonInMe1 -> RE: Do you think All Sins are Equal? (4/24/2008 7:39:11 AM)

quote:

How does the Father see the sins of a believer when they are covered beneath the blood of Jesus?


First, I would say a true believer is always covered beneath the blood of Jesus or what Jesus accomplished on the cross, final attonement, was not 100%.

Secondly, what God sees, is Jesus in a believer.



glimmerinthedark -> RE: Do you think All Sins are Equal? (4/24/2008 8:18:44 AM)

People shouldn't try to justify a sin. Look at the bigger picture. Are you trying to go after God's will, and try as much as possible not to sin at all? Or are you trying to cover up, or find a way around certain sins. If we truly love God we wont care about which sin is worse than the other. Sin is sin, and is against God's will.



VCO -> RE: Do you think All Sins are Equal? (4/24/2008 11:00:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaveW

VCO, I am thinking you are truly not seeing the question I am asking or the point I make.

You are looking at over-all eternal consequences. We both agree on the eternal consequences of sin.

However, I am looking at specific statements like "unforgivable sin," "greater sin," "more tolerable in the day of judgement," etc. that indicate IN SCRIPTURE there is some kind of differentiation. You seem to be totally ignoring these statements. This is what the OP's question is all about.


U&U

I think it is a DANGEROUS practice to even start to think "At least my sins are not as bad as his - F." That is WHY Paul referred to himself as the "Chief of Sinners". When we realize that we are guilty of breaking all of God's Laws just like Jeffery Dahmer, and just like Adolf Hitler; it drives us to our knees seeking forgiveness and crying out for a SAVIOR. We NEED to remind ourselves that MY sins put Jesus on the Cross; and that on that Cross He paid for MY sins, so that I would not go to eternal torment in HELL.

James 2:10 (GW)
10 If someone obeys all of God's laws except one, that person is guilty of breaking all of them.

Therefore were are ALL EQUALLY GUILTY OF BREAKING ALL OF GOD's LAWS.



drmark -> RE: Do you think All Sins are Equal? (4/25/2008 7:34:49 AM)

quote:

I think it is a DANGEROUS practice to even start to think "At least my sins are not as bad as his
VCO, did you read DaveW's post #85 above? Does your Bible include such passages as "unforgivable sin," "greater sin," "more tolerable in the day of judgement," etc? How do you interpret these passages since they clearly indicate that some sins are NOT identical to other sins? This thread is NOT about unrepentant sinners on their way to Hell! We all agree as Christians with that point of essential doctrine.



makarizo -> RE: Do you think All Sins are Equal? (4/25/2008 5:59:09 PM)

when you look at the law, the consequence for a certain transgression was death, for another it was specific sacrifice, for some it was a washing, and so on.
if the sins were all equal, the punishments were definitely not.



oldmethuselah -> C.S.Lewis to the Rescue! (4/26/2008 9:16:55 AM)

Wow, I cannot believe how this thread has exploded..so I apologize if this has already been mentioned.

In his fictional book "The Great Divorce" C.S. Lewis answers this OP completely.

Various characters, in short readable encounters, are on the outskirts of heaven, with a variety of "practices" they would not call sins - from gossip, to "smother mother love", to intellectual pride ..etc. etc.

EACH of the sins, unrepented, becomes COMPLETELY CAPABLE of dooming the individual who clings tenaciously to them!

But THE GOOD THING ABOUT this particular book, is that We the READERS (and this can include your atheistic friends who are so "down" on the Christian heaven hell thing) can ABSOLUTELY SEE why the large variety of sins leads to the conclusion it does!

WARNING to CHRISTIANS... you may see yourself in several places in the book so be prepared to recognize your own tendencies (I did and it's quite a good "heads up" to review when we start to get smug)



SonInMe1 -> RE: C.S.Lewis to the Rescue! (4/26/2008 11:02:45 AM)

quote:

EACH of the sins, unrepented, becomes COMPLETELY CAPABLE of dooming the individual who clings tenaciously to them!


A sin is something a christian will always repent of.

A sin is something a christian knows is a sin. There are no surprises.

There are no lines waiting to get into heaven. No pearly gates. No Peter waiting there.

The above statement also refutes Grace.

C.S. might be a talented intellegent writer but that is extremely poor doctrine.



oldmethuselah -> RE: C.S.Lewis to the Rescue! (4/26/2008 6:38:32 PM)

It was not meant to be doctrine... I apologize for not making that clear.

C.S. Lewis does not believe there is going to be a lion name ASLAN waiting to greet us, we would do well to recognize intended allegorical fiction for what it is and I am sorry my explanation was too brief to clarify that "The Great Divorce" is not his view, or mine, of heaven.



drmark -> RE: C.S.Lewis to the Rescue! (4/26/2008 6:44:40 PM)

quote:

A sin is something a christian will always repent of.

A sin is something a christian knows is a sin. There are no surprises.
So how do you explain sins of ignorance, SonInMe1?

quote:

quote:

EACH of the sins, unrepented, becomes COMPLETELY CAPABLE of dooming the individual who clings tenaciously to them!
The above statement also refutes Grace.
Not at all! Grace is always there - the issue is whether or not we will appropriate it. This refutes only the false doctrine of irrestible grace.



VCO -> RE: Do you think All Sins are Equal? (4/26/2008 11:06:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark

quote:

I think it is a DANGEROUS practice to even start to think "At least my sins are not as bad as his
VCO, did you read DaveW's post #85 above? Does your Bible include such passages as "unforgivable sin," "greater sin," "more tolerable in the day of judgement," etc? How do you interpret these passages since they clearly indicate that some sins are NOT identical to other sins? This thread is NOT about unrepentant sinners on their way to Hell! We all agree as Christians with that point of essential doctrine.


U&U

Yes, I read it, and then I responded with James 2:10; which CLEARLY states that one sin, NO MATTER HOW SMALL WE THINK IT IS, makes us GUILTY of breaking ALL of God's Laws. THAT FACT totally removes ANY right to look down on another thinking "I am not as sinful as he is." WE ARE ALL EQUALLY GUILTY OF BREAKING ALL OF GOD'S LAWS. As I stated above, there is only two types of Sinners:

Forgiven Sinners
and
Unforgiven Sinners.

NO MATTER WHAT THE SIN, the judgement is "Guilty of breaking ALL of God's Laws.", and the EQUAL sentence that is due to be PAID, is "A Holy Blood Sacrafice." We are not Holy and could NEVER pay the sentence debt for a SINGLE SIN, (which automatically is the SAME as breaking ALL of God's LAWS). WHICH SHOULD DRIVE US TO OUR KNEES CRYING OUT:

Romans 7:24 (KJV)
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

Philippians 2:3 (GW)
3 Don't act out of selfish ambition or be conceited. Instead, humbly think of others as being better than yourselves.

Romans 11:18 (GW)
18 So don't brag about being better than the other branches. If you brag, remember that you don't support the root, the root supports you.

Romans 3:9-11 (NKJV)
9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin.
10 As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one;
11 There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God.

I was a Volunteer Protestant Chaplain for 15 years in two of California most notorious Maximum Security Prisons. One thing I learned from when God first called me into that Ministry is: If you approach inmates with an attitude of "At least I am not as bad of a sinner as he is.", the inmates will COMPLETELY tune you out, and rightfully so. I also learned that when you learn that you are as great a sinner as the worst inmate behind bars and reflect that in your ministry, witnessing to them becomes emmensely easier than witnessing to neighbors that do not think they are that great of a sinner.

Matthew 7:1-5 (NASB)
1 "Do not judge so that you will not be judged.
2 "For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you.
3 "Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?
4 "Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' and behold, the log is in your own eye?
5 "You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.

Ephesians 2:8-9 (NKJV)
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

"GRACE" IS RECEIVING WHAT WE DO NOT DESERVE!
"MERCY" IS NOT RECEIVING WHAT WE DO DESERVE!

And when one refuses to repent and receive Jesus Christ as "LORD"; that one is rejecting "that GRACE, and that GIFT of faith, and His MERCY". That leaves that person GUILTY of the Unforgivable Sin, called "Blaspheming the Holy Spirit".



VCO -> RE: C.S.Lewis to the Rescue! (4/26/2008 11:41:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark

So how do you explain sins of ignorance, SonInMe1?



Proverbs 24:9 (KJV)
9 The thought of foolishness is sin: . . .

1 John 5:17 (NIV)
17 All wrongdoing is sin, . . .

James 4:17 (NASB)
17 Therefore, to one who knows the right thing to do and does not do it, to him it is sin.

Romans 14:23 (NKJV)
23 . . . for whatever is not from faith is sin.

That should just about eliminate "it was a sin of ignorance" as an excuse.

And in case I discover one that these verses do not apply to,
THANK GOD FOR THIS ONE:

1 John 1:9 (NKJV)
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.



SonInMe1 -> RE: C.S.Lewis to the Rescue! (4/26/2008 11:49:53 PM)

quote:

So how do you explain sins of ignorance, SonInMe1?


Since saved people are Holy Spirit indwellt, there are none. Not for saved people. Possibly an immature christian won't recognise the tugging of the Holy Spirit but I can't imagine God being ignorant of sin and not impressing that upon us.

quote:

the issue is whether or not we will appropriate it.


mmmm.....are you suggesting a saved person would not accept the will of God? Is that possible?



drmark -> RE: C.S.Lewis to the Rescue! (4/27/2008 8:48:06 AM)

quote:

And when one refuses to repent and receive Jesus Christ as "LORD"; that one is rejecting "that GRACE, and that GIFT of faith, and His MERCY". That leaves that person GUILTY of the Unforgivable Sin, called "Blaspheming the Holy Spirit".
Thank you, VCO, for your Scripturally sound reply. I'm sorry, but I still see no answer in your response to the fact that the Bible refers to ""unforgivable sin," "greater sin," "more tolerable in the day of judgement," clearly showing that all sins are not equal, except that all sins condemn the unforgiven to Hell. Do you have an explanation or are these terms unimportant in Scripture because the only important point is to stay out of Hell?

quote:

Since saved people are Holy Spirit indwellt, there are none. Not for saved people.
So Spirit-indwelled Christians never sin in ignorance? Wow, and you thought "my version" of Christian perfection was extreme!

quote:

mmmm.....are you suggesting a saved person would not accept the will of God? Is that possible?
mmmm.....are you suggesting a saved person will never deliberately disobey the known will of God? Is that possible?



makarizo -> RE: Do you think All Sins are Equal? (4/27/2008 7:44:55 PM)

quote:

quote:

Since saved people are Holy Spirit indwellt, there are none. Not for saved people.


So Spirit-indwelled Christians never sin in ignorance? Wow, and you thought "my version" of Christian perfection was extreme!

good point drmark, there is a phrase: "process of sanctification", it comes after justification, and it is not instantaneous.
the greater sins are cleaned up, and as we walk and grow, God will bring us to the places of lessers sins when we are ready (by faith) to hand them over to God.
[;)] I know I didn't word that like a trained theologian with some degree, it has been my own experience.



*** sorry oldmethuselah, that rampant thread title changing bugs me



SonInMe1 -> RE: Do you think All Sins are Equal? (4/27/2008 9:19:34 PM)

My previous statement did not mention a "time limit" Eventually your sin will be revealed to you either by God, or your maturing.

Darkness cannot exist in the light. Eventually the light always wins out.

You wouldn't suggest the Holy Spirit is asleep in you...eh?



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