RE: Do you think All Sins are Equal? (Full Version)

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Mr.Cup -> RE: Do you think All Sins are Equal? (2/18/2008 11:37:10 PM)

A sin is a sin. All sin's are forgiveable, one just has to repent from a sincere heart and God will forgive you no matter what it was. I asked that very question myself a while back. The answer I got was that all sins are forgiveable. The only one that is not forgivable is not accepting Jesus as you Lord and Savior. He is your salvation, he is the way, the truth, and the light. He has shown me that. First hand.... And let me clarify what I mean by first hand. When he touches your heart you will know trust me.



DaveW -> RE: Do you think All Sins are Equal? (2/19/2008 6:31:41 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark

Thank you, DaveW, you beat me to it. We cannot commit a sin of omission if we do not know the right thing to do, can we?

BTW, I am not sure that Arminius ever made a public definition of the "act of sin". This is primarily a Wesleyan concept of sinning, and esssentially all modern Holiness denominations, such as the Church of the Nazarene, uphold this Scriptural doctrine.
You are welcome. My dad was a Wesleyn Methodist pastor before I was born and I attended a C/N and later an A/G (also of Wesleyan extraction) so much of my doctrinal stance is from that tradition. My definition of sin is decidedly NOT Wesleyan, but I do understand the Wesleyan model and the scriptural support for it.

It is not that I think the Wesleyan model is wrong in and of itself, it is just too narrow. It leaves out sins of ignorance, sins of missing the mark unintentionally.



drmark -> RE: Do you think All Sins are Equal? (2/19/2008 8:49:50 AM)

quote:

It is not that I think the Wesleyan model is wrong in and of itself, it is just too narrow. It leaves out sins of ignorance, sins of missing the mark unintentionally.
Not at all, DaveW. The model simply handles unintentional sins of ignorance in a different manner than willful disobedience of God's known laws. This is well documented in the link I provided and that you quoted above. Several Wesleyan theologians are willing to call "missing the mark" to be sinning which is covered by imputed righteousness through the Atonement. Read the link if you're interested.



Liveloved -> RE: Do you think All Sins are Equal? (2/19/2008 9:32:44 AM)

quote:

Are there sins, we often overlook and hold onto, that we underestimate their
damage and ability to hold us down, unawares, or are not necessarily clearly
spelled out in the word?

If so, what are some of those, in your opinion--and can you think of Scripture
that may be appropriate or which could apply or point to it?


Yes, Janice, I know what you are talking about (re: pride and haughtiness in believers). That is why I ask the Lord every day to show me MY sinful ways, to search me and find any wicked way in me (Ps 139:23-24). I want to repent and turn away and go His way in any and all of the things He shows me. He often uses others to reveal our sin to us. I've even prayed for Him to specifically use others to show me my sin---and my phone has rung with friends doing that.:)

Jeremiah and Obadiah warn us that "the arrogance of your heart has deceived you." (Obadiah 1:3) That is the working of pride.

Humility requires the willingness and even eagerness to see our sin---even the sin that others point out to us. It's painful because it strikes at the core of the 'self'.

If you continue to diligently seek the Lord and desire to be shown 'your' ways so that you turn from them and be led in His ways, He will show you.

And pray for those who you see caught in pride. They have been deceived.



jfaye -> RE: Do you think All Sins are Equal? (2/19/2008 10:11:07 AM)

quote:

Humility requires the willingness and even eagerness to see our sin---even the sin that others point out to us. It's painful because it strikes at the core of the 'self'.


Very good, 'LL'--thank you! It's hard work, for sure but one which should make us more aware
of how we do come across to others, in ways we have blind spots of ourselves!!

How about 'laziness'? Anyone struggle with that one?

Ecclesiastes 10: 18 "Through indolence the rafters sag, and through slackness the house leaks."

Does sitting around watching TV, even reading books, playing computer or video games have
precedence over the practical needs of your home? Does your grass grow so long that your
home is an embarrassment to your neighborhood? Do neighbors complain because your place
looks like a trash heap, front or back because you lack the discipline of a work ethic that considers
your neighbors and their desire for a pleasant and orderly neighborhood, considering that the
'look' does affect their property values.

Do you sit back, and let others support you, rather than look to do the work, any work, that is
required of one for a paycheck to provide for your family?

Does your church have a service need, you could meet, but you are just not willing to put out the
time and effort to help or be used?

A lazy Christian makes excuses for everything that requires effort or participation in service to
God and others.

Some Scriptures come to mind on this topic:

Proverbs 22:13 "The sluggard says, "There is a lion outside;
I will be killed in the streets!" (making excuses?)

Proverbs 19:24 "The sluggard buries his hand in the dish,
But will not even bring it back to his mouth."

Proverbs 21: 4 "The sluggard does not plow after the autumn,
So he begs during the harvest and has nothing."

Proverbs 21:25 "The desire of the sluggard puts him to death,
For his hands refuse to work;"

Proverbs 6:9
How long will you lie down, O sluggard?When will you arise from your sleep?

Proverbs 26:14 "As the door turns on its hinges,So does the sluggard on his bed."
(do we sleep too long or late to make it to church or work or school or anything useful of a day?)

Proverbs 26:16 "The sluggard is wiser in his own eyes than seven men who can give a discreet answer."
(know anyone like that--too lazy to work but has all the wisdom of a sage, in their own eyes?)

And finally:

Proverbs 6:6 "Go to the ant, O sluggard,
Observe her ways and be wise,
7 Which, having no chief, officer or ruler,
8 Prepares her food in the summer
And gathers her provision in the harvest.
9 How long will you lie down, O sluggard?
When will you arise from your sleep?
10 A little sleep, a little slumber,
A little folding of the hands to rest"--
11 Your poverty will come in like a vagabond
And your need like an armed man."


Any other things come to your mind that we do, that we tend to overlook or excuse that could be
considered sin to God and others?



drmark -> RE: Do you think All Sins are Equal? (2/19/2008 10:27:25 AM)

quote:

quote:

Are there sins, we often overlook and hold onto, that we underestimate their
damage and ability to hold us down, unawares, or are not necessarily clearly
spelled out in the word?
Yes, Janice, I know what you are talking about (re: pride and haughtiness in believers).
I guess I don't understand this response when both of you have listed a dozen passages which "clearly spell out" the sin of pride, haughtiness, self-conceit, arrogance and the like. Is it a sin to claim that God gives us the ability to not willfully sin in thought, word, and deed every day? I surely hope not!



jfaye -> RE: Do you think All Sins are Equal? (2/19/2008 11:15:48 AM)

quote:

Is it a sin to claim that God gives us the ability to not willfully sin in thought, word, and deed every day? I surely hope not!


Mark, not sure how you got that out of what 'LL' has said?? We all know folks who display arrogance
in their faith. They think they know more than anyone else, but have so many blindspots of their own.

We have such a one in our church, who is very 'knowledgeable' but is also very 'puffed up' in that
knowledge, which can always be a danger with 'knowledge' on any topic. He dominates any discussion
group even to the extent of taking on that foolish wrangling about 'could God make a rock too heavy for
Him to lift' and 'how many angels could fit on the head of a pin', expounding long and loud on the topic! [8|]

It's such a shame, too, because he DOES have so much Biblical training and indepth knowledge that
can be very useful when shared with those who desire to know more themselves. But you just dread
him entering into a discussion, because he likes to wax eloquent, so long and in such a manner that
clearly is read as over-powering and self aggrandzing in his way of doing it. I guess you'd just have
to be there to know what I mean.

This man, is also very difficult to communicate with, and very harsh and rude to his own wife. I sense
that he must be a very unpleasant man to live with. His wife, bless her, seems to just 'endure'!

With all that said, it is scary to critique another brother or sister, because we then fall into the danger
of emulating the very thing we point out!!!! Backing off now, very sheepish [sm=worried.gif]and looking about for that
'demon' to overtake me any moment, now!!!![sm=icon_smile_yikes.gif]

(edited to correct spelling)



Liveloved -> RE: Do you think All Sins are Equal? (2/19/2008 11:46:40 AM)

quote:

I have seen some attitudes of some (believers) who profess being sinless that really come
across as on the edge of haughtiness, patronizing and self-aggrandizing, that to me, is the
sin of pridefulness.


drmark, although I was 'eventually' going to respond to the quote I used in my last post, the beginning of my response was a response to this quote (above). Sorry for the confusion.[sm=crazy.gif]

And in response to your question, drmark, I agree with you. It is not a sin to believe that God will give us the ability to not willfully sin.

But the point is, in my humble opinion, that we do see pride and haughtiness. And as I shared earlier, arrogance deceives. And unless we are willing to be shown our faults (by God and the 'whoevers' He uses), we will continue in them. That is not the direction I want to go. I want to always be open to God's correcting hand. And bless the person He uses to turn me around! It may not feel good. It usually doesn't. But it IS good. And that is all that matters.

I pray daily for two Bible teachers who I see caught in the sin of pride. And I pray for God to root out all of MY pride, my self loving ways, as well.

Thank you for your willingness to correct me and to understand me. You have demonstrated, lived out to me, what others have not. You asked. You were willing for new information. I call that the Joshua 22 principle---seeking out information rather than staying in judgment. I have found few who practice that. Thank you, drmark!

And if I have not made myself understood, or if I am wrong, proud or otherwise sinful, tell me please! I truly want to know. Blessings, LL



drmark -> RE: Do you think All Sins are Equal? (2/19/2008 11:51:04 AM)

quote:

Mark, not sure how you got that out of what 'LL' has said??
I'm not overly concerned about Liveloved response, just reassured by your clarification, that's all.

quote:

And in response to your question, drmark, I agree with you. It is not a sin to believe that God will give us the ability to not willfully sin.
Thanks, LL. It's reassuring to know that not everyone considers striving for Christian perfection to be arrogant pride.



ta_mosquito -> RE: Do you think All Sins are Equal? (2/19/2008 12:57:22 PM)

quote:

Does sitting around watching TV, even reading books, playing computer or video games have
precedence over the practical needs of your home?


Ouch. [&o]

My house could use a lot more cleaning than I give it. Being online is much more fun! (And plus, I have a good excuse - I'm a mod! I must check the forums several dozen times a day!) [8|]



DaveW -> RE: Do you think All Sins are Equal? (2/19/2008 1:23:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark

Is it a sin to claim that God gives us the ability to not willfully sin in thought, word, and deed every day? I surely hope not!
Willful sin is more accurately called "transgression." I would agree that HE certainly can keep us free from transgression (willful disobedience) and that it is not arrogant to teach that. The author of Hebrews says we all should be striving toward that goal everyday, dropping off weights and besetting sins. (fixing our eyes on the author and perfector of our faith....) It would not be commanded if it were impossible.

Where the arrogance comes in is when someone thinks they have arrived, and that willful disobedience is all there is.



Liveloved -> RE: Do you think All Sins are Equal? (2/19/2008 2:52:41 PM)

Sin.

A confession.

A friend asked me this morning what my greatest fear was. I answered her, "That friends who I love will reject Jesus and die without knowing Him."

My first thought was "dying". I did not say that.

I went to workout (exercise) and in the midst of my workout, the Lord showed me my hypocrisy. Matthew 23:28 hits it on the head [sm=hammerhead.gif]. Even so you too outwardly appear righteous to men, but inwardly you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.

I asked the Lord's forgiveness. And I am thankful His mercies are new every morning to me.

Yes, Janice, we need to take sin seriously. I'm thankful He showed me how very much I need Him!



jfaye -> RE: Do you think All Sins are Equal? (2/19/2008 6:30:37 PM)

Thank you LL for your transparency!!! I wish I could hug you![sm=hug.gif]

We can be ready to see the Lord and fear the process of dying! Anyone, who would be
honest with you would tell you that, upfront!

I am reminded that the Lord, Himself, gave evidence of fearing the looming cross and
even asked if there weren't another way. And, I know, it wasn't only the crucifixion He
dreaded, but much more, the stuff of Hell, in being separated from His Father as He bore
the weight of the sins of the world--but yet, He experienced fear, in His flesh and in His
spirit, so He does not chide us, when we have such fear of the unknown process that each
of us one day, will experience, if the Lord tarries!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Talk about confessing----I'm going to take a step out--and tell you all, that before I made
a public profession of faith in Jesus Christ, at age 12 I had an on-going habit of lying!! I
have a very active and vivid imagination to this day, as one with a bent to the artistic!
I was a very creative liar--and actually enjoyed coming up with convincing falsehoods, I think!
After I was saved, I became almost obsessive about telling the truth--which isn't a bad
thing! Honesty is very very important to me and I admit that a wall comes down between
me and the person who I am aware of any dishonesty and lying! Our one daughter,
especially, is also a very strong truth-person because I taught them both that there is nothing
they could do that would be worse than lying to me about and that once trust is lost, it is so
very difficult to get back.

With that said, I have to say, that to this day, there are moments, where I am in a 'tight spot'
where the first thing that comes to mind, is a very clever way out, with a very convincing
and plausible lie. It takes nothing for it to be clearly presented in my mind, as a way out!! [:o]
I am appalled everytime that happens!! It gives evidence, of from 'whence I came', and is a good
reminder of what I would have become without my Lord! I hate it when it happens but I am so
thankful (to the Lord) that I can now choose not to lie, and even if it is uncomfortable to tell the truth,
I now can!!![sm=icon_smile_fish.gif]


Oh, and Tricia--I'm on here so often (blush) that I could easily be a 'presence' that might be more
useful!!! Thankfully, hubby and I are reitired--he from a full time job--me from cooking and house-
keeping! Hubby loves to cook and the house is easier to deal with these days, but---I need to do
more of it, and less of sitting here visiting with all you people. But--I do love it here!!!![&o] And,
I do love talking about the Lord and being driven deeper in the word for these discussions!!!



Liveloved -> RE: Do you think All Sins are Equal? (2/19/2008 7:03:28 PM)

quote:

Honesty is very very important to me and I admit that a wall comes down between
me and the person who I am aware of any dishonesty and lying!


We are sooooo alike. Love you dear sister, LL

I have to ask:
A few weeks ago a friend brought some soup over for lunch. I thought it tasted like dirty bath water and only ate a small portion. Last week when she called me, she said, "I hope my soup tasted OK because you sure didn't eat much." I said something like, "Oh, it was fine. I just wasn't hungry."

Is that a lie? I knew when she asked the question I was in a 'tight spot'. But I decided this was really not something I wanted to hurt a friend's feelings regarding.

I look at this as God judges me by what my motive is. My words may not be totally truthful but I have spoken them to spare her feelings. But I really don't like being in those positions because I feel forced to be untruthful. If I'm remembering right, I think that is very true of those with 'melancholy' temperments if you've studied those. Anyway, just thought I'd share that example.



jfaye -> RE: Do you think All Sins are Equal? (2/19/2008 8:03:23 PM)

And, I am loving you, too--LL!! [sm=blush.gif]

[sm=icon_smile_yikes.gif]I'm going to risk tackling your dilemna, LL--with 'love' in mind, I use that to be the basis of what to do
in such a situation as you found yourself. Would it be loving to tell her 'how it really was'? No way! I do not
believe in 'situational ethics' but it is never loving to satisfy our own need to feel and be righteous at the needless
expense of another. [sm=halo.gif]

That is why, I think we can never say we are completely sinless, (for very long) because living in a fallen
world, we are bound to sin, even in being loving, in order not to needlessly hurt another. Is it the letter
of the Law the Lord is asking of us or the spirit of the Law, as we endeavor to live lives that speak
well of who we are in Christ and to reach out to others in love, being lov--ing?

What good could it have been to her, to tell her, that her soup tasted like bath-water, just to be
absolutely truthful??? None at all!

Now, if she were in sin, and you were put in a postion where she asked you about the sin situation,
it would be more loving and right to tell her, how it is, even if it hurt her feelings because it would
not be loving to leave her with any impression but that sin is wrong and corrupts.

I have a feeling I will be barraged now! I'm ducking under my kitchen table, so let it fly. [:(]
It is a most difficult call--if we are living by the letter of the Law, exclusively!!![:o]

1 Peter 4:8 "Above all, keep fervent in your love for one another, because love covers a multitude of sins."

Proverbs 10:12" ... love covers all transgressions."

Luke 10:27"..."YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL,
AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND; AND YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."
(what would you want to hear, after going to all the trouble to make soup for someone you had hoped to help?)

Ephesians 4:29 "Let no unwholesome word proceed from your mouth, but only such a word as is good for edification
according to the need of the moment, so that it will give grace to those who hear."



makarizo -> RE: Do you think All Sins are Equal? (2/19/2008 9:12:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jfaye

So--do you think there are greater and lesser sins in God's eyes?

Can you be successful at resisting the ones listed in the 10 commandments
and yet have other sins you wrestle with and still be considered mostly successful
at being mostly sinless?[sm=icon_smile_halo.gif]

"in God's eyes"
I think killing babies 2 years and younger was a greater sin, and I think that whatever happened in the valley of hinnom might be classified as a greater sin.



drmark -> RE: Do you think All Sins are Equal? (2/19/2008 10:47:25 PM)

quote:

I look at this as God judges me by what my motive is.
This is precisely what the "proper" definition of sin is all about! You were showing her Christ's Love by expressing sensitivity to the timing and situation of your response. It wouldn't surprise me in the least if sometime in the future you have an opportunity to visit personally and point out some tips for making soup that saves her from embarrassment and you from denying her poor cooking skills. Only God knows how He might use this situation to draw both of you closer to Him.



jfaye -> RE: Do you think All Sins are Equal? (2/20/2008 9:26:39 AM)

quote:

quote:

I look at this as God judges me by what my motive is.

This is precisely what the "proper" definition of sin is all about! You were showing her Christ's Love by expressing sensitivity to the timing and situation of your response. It wouldn't surprise me in the least if sometime in the future you have an opportunity to visit personally and point out some tips for making soup that saves her from embarrassment and you from denying her poor cooking skills. Only God knows how He might use this situation to draw both of you closer to Him.


Good comment, Mark! Said--still peeking out from under the table!!![:(]



sinlessingodseyes -> RE: Do you think All Sins are Equal? (2/20/2008 10:11:43 AM)

Proverbs 6:16-19...i dont know if this has been said yet. But anyway I gather from this that God hates other sins more than others-

16There are six things that the LORD hates,
seven that are an abomination to him:
17haughty eyes, a lying tongue,
and hands that shed innocent blood,
18 a heart that devises wicked plans,
feet that make haste to run to evil,
19 a false witness who breathes out lies,
and one who sows discord among brothers.

If i have read correctly, to me it at least indicates a difference in the way God percieves or reacts to our sin...All through the Old Testament God always commented on such things as neighbours of Israel putting there children in the fire or their orgies etc. whilst not commenting on a mass country of liars....while all sins are sins and the ultimate consequence is death, some sins are definitely worse than others in God's and man's eyes...another example would be causing a child to sin, Jesus seemed pretty passionate about that...



growingseed -> RE: Do you think All Sins are Equal? (2/22/2008 12:18:04 AM)

No, not all sins are equal, blast of H.S is unforgiveable, but from there we can not see the depth of peoples hearts. The sin of unbelief is what we are born into, and really the only judge capable of understanding the standards that he sets is himself God the father. In Jn 3:19-20 " Their judgment is based on this fact: the light from heaven came into the world, but they loved the darkness more than light, for their actions were evil. They hate the light because they want to sin in darkness. They stay away from the light for fear their sins will be exposed and they will be punished". NLT. What sins that are done in darkness and at what level are they measured at, is beyond most of our understanding. The degree of sinning willfully is based upon a changed heart, and even in that we are still learning to live in a nature that is new to us, so, that we are learning that we can still be in some ways sinning. So those in darkness have some understanding enough to know to stay out of the light.



crystalblue -> RE: Do you think All Sins are Equal? (2/22/2008 5:01:18 AM)

Murder and eating too many cupcakes equal? Nope.

The bible says we reap what we sow. Why would the cupcake eater get the same punishment as a murderer if we reaped what we sowed?

Way overkill. God is fair.



drmark -> RE: Do you think All Sins are Equal? (2/22/2008 9:32:27 AM)

quote:

Way overkill. God is fair.
No, God is not fair, crystalblue, but He is merciful and gracious to those who trust Him. A "fair" God would send us all to Hell for our sinful disobedience. A merciful and gracious God gives us a choice in our eternal destiny!



deliveredarling -> RE: Do you think All Sins are Equal? (2/23/2008 6:54:56 AM)

It is important to remember that that with sin , if we are believers, we are forgiven our transgressions, if we ask forgiveness. Forgiveness does not mean "forgetfulness". Just because we may ask for forgiveness, does not mean that He wipes away the consequences of our sin. Often times it is the consequence that brings to mind the need of forgiveness. God is a Just God, that is not the same as fair. His ways are not our ways. He looks and views things differently than our pea brain sized comprehension. He knows the outcomes, where we do not. We do not have the foresight to understand why He allows this or that. This is where our faith meets the road. Do we believe Him and His Word or not?



Pilgrim2001 -> RE: Do you think All Sins are Equal? (2/23/2008 10:58:41 PM)

Are all sins equal? I've wondered about that too. But I think the thing to remember is, 'What did sin do?'

Sin, all of it; mine, yours, past present, and future, put the Son of God on a cross. And there He paid for those sins....every one of them.

Now you and I have the choice of accepting, or denying that redeemption payment. If we accept it (and Him), the debt is paid. (Think about that!!)

But if we deny that payment.....whoa. Someday we will be held accountable, and WE will pay.

The sad part is, we are not righteous. We have no payment for even one sin, not to mention a lifetime of it. That is not the position any of us would choose...one second after the payment is required.



bigboytenor -> RE: Do you think All Sins are Equal? (2/24/2008 6:50:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark

quote:

Way overkill. God is fair.
No, God is not fair, crystalblue, but He is merciful and gracious to those who trust Him. A "fair" God would send us all to Hell for our sinful disobedience. A merciful and gracious God gives us a choice in our eternal destiny!


Write this one down drmark - I agree wholeheartedly with what you said.[:)]



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