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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 4/27/2008 9:37:50 PM
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SavedByGraceMD
Posts: 481
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quote:
ORIGINAL: dmistich
The only perfection our salvation is contingent upon is the perfection of Christ! Thank God, cause I would never have made it!
None of us would have made it then, friend. Thanks be to God for his amazing grace.
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 4/27/2008 11:09:47 PM
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Robert_G
Posts: 237
Joined: 1/8/2006
From: British Columbia, Canada
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WhiteRoseBlessings
However, to imply that God is going to shield His Children from harmful experiences is very insensitive.
I did not imply that at all.
What I said was that God will help us work 'through' harmful experiences, I never once said God would shield us from them....not once did I even imply that.
And again, people make choices out of free will. We can 'choose' to listen to God and be obedient, or we can ignore him and make choices based on our feelings and our self pity. The fact remains....suicide is direct disobedience to God no matter how you look at it.
_____________________________
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 4/28/2008 12:42:04 AM
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Casper22
Posts: 44
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quote:
ORIGINAL: dmistich
The only perfection our salvation is contingent upon is the perfection of Christ! Thank God, cause I would never have made it!
This is a tough topic, because the thought of going to hell for committing suicide may actually keep some from doing it. BUT, who has the right to judge someone who is sick or hurting badly enough to commit suicide? People don't commit suicide because they are evil. They do it because they are in pain. Enough pain stored up causes mental illness. Enough mental illness and ...
I lived it and God just simply told me to stop, get up, quit crying. He picked me up, dusted me off and put me back on my feet. He wasn't mad at me! I can imagine Him doing the same for those who don't make it in this life.
The hardest part with dealing with depression and mental illness is believing tomorrow is a new day tomorrow is a good day. Its like being taken prisoner it wrecks your whole life. Its all your consumed with. The tears the panic attacks the uncontrollable fear of people because you think there going to hurt you or point and laugh at you.locking yourself up in your home covering your windows never allowing the sun to come in. Then getting sick because your not getting enough sun light. It is a genuine medical problem that can and does get out of control more than somes arrogant soap boxes will allow them to believe. To say that God wouldn't allow this to happen to a believer speaking of suicide shows a real lack of knowledge on that subject. Statistics do not lie there is a very high rate of suicide amongst us and its absurd to even suggest not one of these people are saved if they do do it. Suicide is something the church rarely addresses unless its with contempt or ignorance. Ive heard Pastors selfishly boast about never having to deal with depression because there prozac is the bible and then heartlessly suggest those who suffer from depression have some sort of sin in there lives that there trying to hide or there somehow not grounded in Gods word or a church. I am sorry that type of disgusting heartless thinking is why a lot of Christians have lost faith in there church or pastors. It shows a lack of TRUE knowledge on the subject and a high dose of arrogant trash thinking. I know thats harsh but thats how I feel ive seeked the churches help for my own depression some of it has been wonderfully positive some of it has been horribly negative from these quack crack pots who are think my depression is demonic and I need an excorsism to a councelor who took the idea that depression is a sign of some horrible sin in my life as well as some sort of generational curse on my family. There needs to be a balanced thinking on the subject Pastors need to listen to us when we go to them for help not talk over us with hyper spiritual rhetoric. If we dont have our pastors who do we have if we dont have our Christian friends for support.prayer and fellowship we have nothing were alone and im tired of fighting it alone and being to afraid to go to a fellow Christian because all I will get is arrogance and judgement and not the compassion and prayer that I need that those of us like me needs. Now how many people have I just upset and angered because of what I just wrote lol. I am sorry but ive lived it some of you havent had the luxury of coming home seeing your loved blue and lieing lifeless on a couch touching her arm feeling how warm it is but knowing life is gone. God I pray right now it never happens to any of you it opens up a whole new reality to you and your safe zones and your soap boxes and your SUREITY of whats right meens Absolutely nothing in the face of mental illness.
take care
Casper
< Message edited by Casper22 -- 4/28/2008 1:02:05 AM >
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 4/28/2008 8:03:36 AM
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Cephyr13
Posts: 269
Joined: 12/13/2006
From: Dallas, TX
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Still, no one takes my challenge to prove that you can lose your salvation. That's the central issue here. For this topic to even be valid, one would have to prove you could lose your salvation first. Once you prove that, then you can ask if suicide is forgiven. But no one has prove biblically yet that a person can lose their salvation. Please, someone, prove that you can lose salvation first. Once you can do that (which you cannot biblically), then you can debate whether suicide is forgiven or not. And, by the way, blaspheming the Holy Spirit is the only unforgiveable sin mentioned in the Bible. Not suicide. This thread really needs to address the central issue first before it continues aimlessly...
_____________________________
- Brian
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 4/28/2008 9:00:30 AM
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WhiteRoseBlessings
Posts: 26267
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Robert_G
quote:
ORIGINAL: WhiteRoseBlessings
However, to imply that God is going to shield His Children from harmful experiences is very insensitive.
I did not imply that at all.
What I said was that God will help us work 'through' harmful experiences, I never once said God would shield us from them....not once did I even imply that.
You did say this:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Robert_G
Do people here honestly believe that God would allow a the circumstances of a Christian lead him/her to suicide?
quote:
ORIGINAL: Robert_G
And again, people make choices out of free will. We can 'choose' to listen to God and be obedient, or we can ignore him and make choices based on our feelings and our self pity. The fact remains....suicide is direct disobedience to God no matter how you look at it. Robert, we may actually be agreeing more than disagreeing at the moment; I'm not sure, nor will I have time this week to thrash it out.
I do think some of the words you have used in your posts in this thread seem to be a bit insensitive to people who have lost loved ones through suicide, but that's my thing to work through.
I will say that while fear and panic and not being able to trust God in that moment can often be driving forces when one is considering to take their life, I highly doubt that self-pity is. People who self-pity usually want other people around for that to refute everything they say about theirself. I've never know of a truly suicidal self-pitying person.
Blessings,
Sharon-Marie
_____________________________
Cleaning Toy Figurines
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 4/28/2008 10:05:48 PM
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Robert_G
Posts: 237
Joined: 1/8/2006
From: British Columbia, Canada
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WhiteRoseBlessings
You did say this:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Robert_G
Do people here honestly believe that God would allow a the circumstances of a Christian lead him/her to suicide?
Yes, I did say that, but all it means is that I strongly believe that God would intervene 'during' those circumstances in a way that would prevent the person from going through with it. I'm not saying that God takes away our free will. I'm saying he would find a way, whether it be comforting from another Christian, or any way that God would choose to use to keep that person from committing suicide...but it would NOT cross the line of taking our free will away from us.
quote:
ORIGINAL: WhiteRoseBlessings
I do think some of the words you have used in your posts in this thread seem to be a bit insensitive to people who have lost loved ones through suicide, but that's my thing to work through.
I do understand that the subject here can be sensitive. And I have lost people who are close to me that took their own lives, so I'm not coming out of left field.
However, even secular people will tell you that suicide is selfish. Suicide hurts the loved ones that are alive the most..and it makes you realize that the person that committed suicide 'probably' never even considered the feelings of others, because if they knew how much it would hurt them, they would realize that they are worth something to OTHER people.
And someone (sane person) who KNOWS they have worth to others, wouldn't go through with it without 'knowingly' being selfish.
quote:
ORIGINAL: WhiteRoseBlessings
I will say that while fear and panic and not being able to trust God in that moment can often be driving forces when one is considering to take their life, I highly doubt that self-pity is. People who self-pity usually want other people around for that to refute everything they say about theirself. I've never know of a truly suicidal self-pitying person.
Blessings,
Sharon-Marie
Um.....
Self pity is just that....SELF...IE....Having pity for yourself. It has nothing to do with seeking pity from others.
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 4/28/2008 10:22:50 PM
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WhiteRoseBlessings
Posts: 26267
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Robert,
I never said it wasn't selfish.
In fact, to quote myself:
quote:
"Suicide is selfish." I have said this many times throughout the years. I still believe it. Suicide IS selfish. The pain of grieving a suicide is beyond horrendous.
Following that statement, I also then said:
quote:
However . . . that's a pretty judgmental statement. I knew CS was suffering; I knew the depths of his pain were intensely deep. I knew this. I saw his suffering. I felt it. I held him as he cried. Sometimes I cried with him; many times I cried alone - because I didn't want to needlessly burden him.
I knew he was suffering. So how can I say that suicide is selfish when I knew how much pain he was in? Isn't it selfish of me to say such a thing?
Chemical Depression is a disease. A disease just like cancer or any other disease that attacks the body. The difference is that Chemical Depression attacks the mind . . . and we, as a people, are still pretty unsure of how to respond to diseases of the mind . . . the stigmas and all.
Both of these quotes can be found in my blog post entitled, "The Surrealisms and Contradictions
of Suicide," written November 14, 2005. You're welcomed to read the entire post >HERE<. Or not; your choice.
Blessings,
Sharon-Marie
_____________________________
Cleaning Toy Figurines
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 4/28/2008 10:25:13 PM
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WhiteRoseBlessings
Posts: 26267
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From: Here, but subject to change . . . stay tuned!
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Robert_G
quote:
ORIGINAL: WhiteRoseBlessings
You did say this:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Robert_G
Do people here honestly believe that God would allow a the circumstances of a Christian lead him/her to suicide?
Yes, I did say that, but all it means is that I strongly believe that God would intervene 'during' those circumstances in a way that would prevent the person from going through with it. I'm not saying that God takes away our free will. I'm saying he would find a way, whether it be comforting from another Christian, or any way that God would choose to use to keep that person from committing suicide...but it would NOT cross the line of taking our free will away from us. As to this, we will simply have to agree to disagree on some of these aspects.
_____________________________
Cleaning Toy Figurines
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 4/28/2008 10:53:12 PM
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DenimDiva
Posts: 5046
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Robert_G
quote:
ORIGINAL: WhiteRoseBlessings
I will say that while fear and panic and not being able to trust God in that moment can often be driving forces when one is considering to take their life, I highly doubt that self-pity is. People who self-pity usually want other people around for that to refute everything they say about theirself. I've never know of a truly suicidal self-pitying person.
Blessings,
Sharon-Marie
Um.....
Self pity is just that....SELF...IE....Having pity for yourself. It has nothing to do with seeking pity from others.
Robert- easy to say unless you've been there. I'm not talking about "the blues" or "feeling down" once in a while.
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 4/28/2008 11:40:37 PM
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Casper22
Posts: 44
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Cephyr13
Still, no one takes my challenge to prove that you can lose your salvation. That's the central issue here. For this topic to even be valid, one would have to prove you could lose your salvation first. Once you prove that, then you can ask if suicide is forgiven. But no one has prove biblically yet that a person can lose their salvation. Please, someone, prove that you can lose salvation first. Once you can do that (which you cannot biblically), then you can debate whether suicide is forgiven or not. And, by the way, blaspheming the Holy Spirit is the only unforgiveable sin mentioned in the Bible. Not suicide. This thread really needs to address the central issue first before it continues aimlessly...
Your right.
I will leave it alone on my part it has gotten a bit off topic. But still it is valid from my point of view off or on. And Robert I meant no ill will toward you. I hope you didnt feel I was flaming you.
take care
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 4/29/2008 12:22:22 AM
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Robert_G
Posts: 237
Joined: 1/8/2006
From: British Columbia, Canada
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Casper, I'm sure you don't have anything personal against me, so its all good.
Sharon. I find your Blog interesting.
I realize how sensitive an issue this is, and I'm glad to say that I'm learning to be more sensitive towards it, because I used to be a lot more blunt then I am today.
But to give you an idea where I'm coming from, let me explain how I look at things.
When scripture instructs us on how to live our lives, one of the central themes in the bible is that we are to live our lives in "The Joy of the Lord", place our all our Hope/Faith/Trust in God (and only God), and live daily believing in the promises that God has given us.....how can we fail? Knowing that the perfect God is in control.
My question is this. As a Christian, how can we not know that the perfect God is in control? If God is perfect, and he is in control of our lives, why do we worry?
Can we live this theme perfectly? Of course not, but if we 'base' our lives around this, we will always look to God first, and realize that he IS bigger then any problem or circumstance in our lives. Once we realize how 'small' our problems really are, we can live our lives for God daily as he desires us to.
What stops us from trusting and having faith?
Think about this and then let me know what you think.
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 4/29/2008 1:49:12 AM
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DenimDiva
Posts: 5046
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Robert_G
What stops us from trusting and having faith?
Think about this and then let me know what you think.
Never knowing how to trust or have faith and mental illnesses.
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 4/29/2008 5:55:37 AM
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whisperingwaters
Posts: 127
Joined: 5/3/2007
From: Michigan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Robert_G
Casper, I'm sure you don't have anything personal against me, so its all good.
Sharon. I find your Blog interesting.
I realize how sensitive an issue this is, and I'm glad to say that I'm learning to be more sensitive towards it, because I used to be a lot more blunt then I am today.
But to give you an idea where I'm coming from, let me explain how I look at things.
When scripture instructs us on how to live our lives, one of the central themes in the bible is that we are to live our lives in "The Joy of the Lord", place our all our Hope/Faith/Trust in God (and only God), and live daily believing in the promises that God has given us.....how can we fail? Knowing that the perfect God is in control.
My question is this. As a Christian, how can we not know that the perfect God is in control? If God is perfect, and he is in control of our lives, why do we worry?
Can we live this theme perfectly? Of course not, but if we 'base' our lives around this, we will always look to God first, and realize that he IS bigger then any problem or circumstance in our lives. Once we realize how 'small' our problems really are, we can live our lives for God daily as he desires us to.
What stops us from trusting and having faith?
Think about this and then let me know what you think.
What stoped Peter from having faith to keep walking on water when Christ was right there in front of him?
I come from the perspective of a person that has attempted suicide and I was a believing Christian at the time. Just because I have faith in God does not mean I will have the willpower to live a life of what to me is torment. I do not think it is a question of mental illness or not either, when I slit my arm I knew perfectly well what I was doing I was trying to end my life on this earth but at the same time I thought I was going to heaven also, I knew it was a sin but I was believing in the forgiveness and grace of Christ.
Also the question you give about wouldn't God intervene and save someone from committing suicide if they were truly a Christian I would say thats a bunch of balogne because I could of easily hung myself instead like so many others have in times past and there would of been nothing to save me from dieing then, instead I cut my arm and made a pretty big gash but did not cut a main artery so there was not enough blood flow for me to die from my blood kept clotting up even when I rinsed it with water. Thats free will for you God allows us to make decisions for ourselfs and we will suffer the consequences of those decisions weather they be good or evil do you remember the verse that says God rains on the just and the unjust alike?
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The words of a man's mouth are as deep waters, and the well-spring of wisdom as a flowing brook. Proverbs 18:4
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 4/29/2008 1:51:56 PM
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AboundinginHisGrace
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The answer is simple. If the person was saved they went to heaven, if they were not they went to hell. Before I became a Christian, I didnt deserve salvation, and now that I am saved I still dont deserve it. I believe once you are saved (trully had a life changing experience) your eternal life is secure no matter what. In other words once saved always saved.
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" 'O Lord God. You have begun to show Your servant Your greatness and Your Mighty hand, for what god is there in heaven or on earth who can do anything like Your works and Your mighty deeds?" Deuteronomy 3:24
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 4/29/2008 3:05:45 PM
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Cephyr13
Posts: 269
Joined: 12/13/2006
From: Dallas, TX
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Still haven't seen anyone prove biblically that you can lose your salvation yet.
_____________________________
- Brian
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 4/29/2008 5:44:39 PM
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Cephyr13
Posts: 269
Joined: 12/13/2006
From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DenimDiva
quote:
ORIGINAL: Cephyr13
Still haven't seen anyone prove biblically that you can lose your salvation yet.
Probably because that isn't the main topic of this thread.
I suppose there are those who feel that if a person were to commit suicide, then they were never really saved to begin with. I don't believe that, but I'm sure there are those that do. BTW- I'm a firm fence-sitter on the OSAS debate, but that's best saved for the one-stop thread for it. 
But it IS the central topic of this thread whether people understand that or not. Here are the possibilities:
1. Once saved always saved is correct: in which case, we know suicide will not send you to hell if you're saved.
2. Once saved always saved is not correct, in which case, the suicide goes to hell or heaven depending on whether suicide is covered under the sins Jesus died for or proper protocol for forgiveness.
If #1 is true, then this topic of debate is over. If #2 is true, then we must then explore if one has to ask forgiveness to get forgiveness for a sin after they're saved, and we must ask what sins are forgiveable and which are not. We know blasphemy of the Holy Spirit (rejecting Him) is the only unforgiveable sin mentioned in the Bible. Everything else is forgiveable. Which brings us back to protocol: Does one have to ask forgiveness for EVERY sin they commit in order to be forgiven for it? And is one sin worse than another?
1. Is one sin worse than another? No. There's a verse that says all sin is the same to God.
2. Does one have to ask forgiveness for every sin they commit in order to get forgiven of it, or are their sins already forgiven perpetually, or do you have to ask forgiveness for ALL of your sins quite often but not naming them each individually?
For #2 to be true, it would also be true that if anyone forgets to repent of a sin during their life time, and they are not forgiven of it, when they get to heaven, God will say, "You forgot to ask forgiveness for this one sin, which means you have to pay the price for sin under the law of sin and death, which means you have to go to hell." Now that doesn't sound too logical to me. Either you have to ask forgiveness for EVERY sin you commit, or you can ask forgiveness once when you accept forgiveness and Jesus covers all of your sins. Or, you have to ask occasionally for all your sins to be forgiven again.
Now, here's where that gets confusing: If #2 is true and we must ask forgiveness of some sort after we commit sins after we're saved, then that would mean NOT asking for forgiveness condemns us, right? That doesn't seem to line up with the Bible at all, though. In my next post, I'll show what the Bible says about salvation, and that may clarify this issue a lot better.
_____________________________
- Brian
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 4/29/2008 7:08:01 PM
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Cephyr13
Posts: 269
Joined: 12/13/2006
From: Dallas, TX
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In my last post I showed how proving or disproving once saved always saved is the core issue of this topic and must first be determined before the conversation can go on. Because if once saved always saved is true, then there's no reason to have this conversation, because suicide is covered by Jesus' sacrifice. If once saved always saved is not correct, then suicide may or may not be covered under Jesus' sacrifice. I'm going to show what the Bible says about salvation.
Here's what Jesus, Paul and David say about salvation:
Jesus:
John 11:25-26 25Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies,
26and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die.
If you can die spiritually (by committing suicide or sinning in any way) after accepting Jesus, it would make Jesus a liar.
John 3:36
"He who believes in the Son has eternal life" (present tense "has" eternal life)
If you can lose eternal life that Jesus gave you when you were saved, then it was never eternal to begin with, because eternal means you cannot ever lose it. It would make Jesus a liar if suicide caused you to lose that eternal life.
John 10:28-29
and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
If suicide or sin of any kind can snatch a person out of God's hand, it would mean that person is more powerful than God and His grasp. I don't see how that's possible.
Paul:
Romans 8:1-2
1Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.
So, for those who are "in Christ" (born again/saved), there's no condemnation, and we are no longer under the law of sin and death, but under the law of the Spirit of life (that would be the Holy Spirit that birthed us, hence the term "born again"). "No condemnation" would cover suicide, I'd imagine.
Romans 8:37-39
37But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us.
38For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,
39nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
As we see here, Paul says nothing (including suicide) can separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Notice it doesn't say "the love of God." It says, "The love of God WHICH IS IN Jesus Christ OUR Lord." So, he specifically defines Christians there. He's not saying God loves everyone. He's saying God's love for us is because we are saved by Jesus and loved by Jesus.
John 3:36
"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."
So, from this verse, we know the last verse, Romans 8:39 is specifically talking about those saved by Christ.
David:
Psalm 32:1-2
1How blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven,
Whose sin is covered!
2How blessed is the man to whom the LORD does not impute iniquity,
And in whose spirit there is no deceit!
Impute means to not count against. David says sins are not counted against God's people. Even David knew that God eternally saved His people in the Old Testament and that their sins were not counted against them. That's profound for many, because they do not recognize that the old covenant included eternal salvation from all sins just like our new covenant does through Jesus. But we won't get into that. Paul even quotes these exact verses in the New Testament, showing that the old and new covenants cover all sins for all times.
So, if sin is not counted against you, how can suicide (which is murder, a sin) be counted against you and condemn you? David would be a liar if suicide could condemn you.
Hebrews:
Hebrews 6:4-6
4For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
Most people try to use this to say that it means you can lose your salvation. It actually says the opposite, that you cannot lose it. It's one big sentence, and very confusing with all the commas. So let's break it down to its core message:
For in the case of those who have once been enlightened (saved), it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, SINCE they again crucify to themselves the Son of God...(rephrased)
Now, all I did was cut out the descriptions in the middle that weren't important. Let me rephrase it again by reconfiguring the sentence so it's more easily understood:
SINCE they again crucify to themselves the Son of God, it is impossible renew them again to repentance.
In other words, you cannot recrucify Christ, because He died for your sins once and for all. There was a teaching at the time that if you commit sin after you're born again, you have to recrucify Christ again to get rid of those sins and get your salvation back. He was refuting that belief by telling them that is absurd. All one needs to do is accept Christ and all your sins are forgiven, and there's no need to try and recrucify Him again. He was saying it was impossible to do so.
There are no verses that say you can lose your salvation, and especially not verses that say sin causes you to lose it. If anyone wants to post any up, I'm more than happy to refute them. Hebrews 10 usually comes up, but it's clearly talking about unsaved Christians and unsaved Jews in that verse. It's more than obvious when you read through those 5 verses.
If anyone wants to post any verses that you think say you can lose your salvation, please do. I'm more than happy to refute them. I've never once been presented with a verse that says you can lose your salvation. They're all quite clear on what they mean if you understand exactly what they're saying and don't apply any extra meaning to them.
_____________________________
- Brian
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 4/30/2008 11:00:21 AM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 4680
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
In my last post I showed how proving or disproving once saved always saved is the core issue of this topic and must first be determined before the conversation can go on.
I completely disagree that eternal security is at issue on this topic.
I once believed that eternal life depended on, was conditional on MY works up until my last breath. Since then, reading the Bible apart from a denominational doctrine, I've change my position and now believe that Grace saves and Grace keeps.
But my view on whether suicide keeps one from heaven has remained the same across those two positions.
The issue is whether salvation is nullified by a chemical imbalance in the brain or by mental illness or disease. If it is, then our "religion" is a pretty sad affair and we are in serious need of meeting the real Jesus, God the Son.
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 4/30/2008 3:14:05 PM
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Cephyr13
Posts: 269
Joined: 12/13/2006
From: Dallas, TX
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
In my last post I showed how proving or disproving once saved always saved is the core issue of this topic and must first be determined before the conversation can go on.
I completely disagree that eternal security is at issue on this topic.
I once believed that eternal life depended on, was conditional on MY works up until my last breath. Since then, reading the Bible apart from a denominational doctrine, I've change my position and now believe that Grace saves and Grace keeps.
But my view on whether suicide keeps one from heaven has remained the same across those two positions.
The issue is whether salvation is nullified by a chemical imbalance in the brain or by mental illness or disease. If it is, then our "religion" is a pretty sad affair and we are in serious need of meeting the real Jesus, God the Son.
I too believe that once you're saved, you're always saved. And so I think this discussion is null and void for born again Christians. Now, for the unsaved that commit suicide, you're saying that you want to know if they go to hell just because of a chemical imbalance in the brain? I'm not sure if I'm misunderstanding you.
You seem to be believing that the chemical imbalance in the brain is the cause of the suicide. But that would mean that you're saying that a person does not have free will IF they have an imbalance of chemicals in their brain and are not choosing for themselves, but rather something else is controlling them and making them commit suicide, and that something else is chemical imbalance.
I believe in demon possession, but only if one lends themselves to the demon in some form or fashion through either the occult or some practice that allows a demon to come in and actually take control of the person. Somehow, they've given up free will to an extent and allowed a demon in to control them at times. But a chemical imbalance controlling someone, I don't buy that for a second. You must determine what caused the chemical imbalance in the first place. I have heard of tons of people who had chemical imbalances and they did not get on medication but instead simply changed the way they viewed life and once they reestablished their outlook on life and CHOOSE to be happy, their chemical imbalance suddenly went away. Psychologists will vouch for that all day long, because they see it all the time. There are books out there that even talk about how someone repenting of certain sins (after they're born again) has suddenly come out of depression and they no longer have a chemical imbalance in their brain. Check out A More Excellent Way by Henry W. Wright. He has tons of testimonies in that book about things like this and other illnesses cursed, both mental and physical, through repenting of certain sins believed to cause those illnesses.
What I find interesting is that Christians believe the Bible, yet they either don't know about, or choose to ignore some major major warnings in the Bible from God Himself:
Deuteronomy 28 says that if we obey God, we will receive every blessing and gives a huge list, and the New Testament confirms this with the list of blessings and the statement: "Seek ye first the kingdom of God and all these things shall be given unto you." That, people understand. But it's like they conveniently don't read the next half of Deuteronomy Chapter 28 and think they're exempt from it somehow when God says that if you do not obey Him (aka - if you sin), you will be cursed with every disease and illness and all kinds of other calamity... horrible stuff!
And people will say, "Christians sins are covered by Jesus, though." Sure, that's true for our spirit, but our mind and body are not yet sanctified like our spirit is. They are just as subject to sin as they were before we were saved. Here's an example with Jesus:
50% of the time when someone would come up to Jesus for healing, He would say, "Your sins are forgiven. Go and sin no more," and suddenly their illness or sickness or blindness or lameness went away! In other words, the absense of sin is no sickness or disease, and the presence of it causes sickness and disease. This can also be shown in the fact that Adam and Eve, when they knew no wrong and no sin were going to live forever. Yet the second they sinned by disobeying God and eating the fruit of the tree, they died not only spiritually, but that spiritual death was eventually going to cause their body to also die. Meaning that the spiritual aspect of things affects our physical body as well. If we have sin in our mind and we carry it out in our actions, then we've just subjected ourselves to the law of sin by disobeying God, and we can full well expect to reap what we sow while still here on this earth, because our mind and body have yet to be sanctified. They aren't sanctified till we are resurrected/raptured, because only then are we told that imperfection puts on perfection by Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:51-54.
Henry W. Wright has had so much success with his method of healing through repentence of sins that the government of Holland has actually adopted the use of it in their state run hospitals (which in that country, all hospitals are state run if I'm not mistaken). I don't see an entire country, especially a fairly secular country like Holland, implimenting a Christian method of healing requiring repentence of a sin to be something that Holland would take lightly unless it really worked.
Now, consider those things and answer my question:
Are you saying that chemicals or genes control one's choices against their free will? Or do you think there may be more to it on a spiritual/mental level than doctors care to delve into?
One last thing: Henry Wright figures out which sins cause which illnesses many times by simply reading the research studies in the medical journals. He says that you'll always find the mental aspects that the medical journals say cause these physical illnesses. Me showed a Merck Medical Journal that had over 3,000 pages of diseases caused by mental things, and it covered just about every sickness or disease out there. It admitted that the causes were mental, amongst other possibilities, yet doctors don't treat the mental causes. They treat the physical symptoms and attribute the causes to physical things or genes, not to anything mental (aka - spiritual).
_____________________________
- Brian
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 4/30/2008 3:22:16 PM
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Cephyr13
Posts: 269
Joined: 12/13/2006
From: Dallas, TX
Status: offline
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I'm going to attempt to show how sins affect the physical body through the example of people who have Multiple Personality Disorder (MPD/DID). And I'm not blaming the multiple for their condition. Abuse causes the condition, not the multiple.
I help people with Multiple Personality Disorder (MPD/DID) heal and integrate so that they can become a monomind again by getting all of their alter personalities (alters) combined back into one single mind. MPD comes from abuse at a very young age, usually before 4 yrs old, and this causes the mind to flee the abuse by splitting apart into two pieces, and one piece flees into the spiritual realm where the spirit is, but the other part of the mind (the new personality) stays out in the body and takes the abuse. 1 Thess 5:23 says that we're spirit, soul and body. The soul is the mind, will and emotions. The soul/mind splits in these people and goes to where their spiritual body is instead of their physical body. There must always be a part of the mind in the physical body at all times to keep involuntary functions like breathy and heartbeat going, and that's why the split occurs the way it does, keeping a part of the mind in the body. This new personality has no memories prior to the abuse, because they're "new." They only have memories about the times they are out in the body.
When they're "inside" in the spiritual world, they do not necessarily sense time passing (because there is no time in eternity, the spiritual world). The only time that time passes for them is when they're interacting with our physical world where time exists. What I've just stated can be proven 100%. I have thousands of hours of chat logs with multiples that can easily prove they're in the spiritual world, because regardless of whether they've ever heard of Jesus, angels or demons before, they ALL see them inside this spiritual world they live in when they're not inside the body. They walk around like normal people in that world, and that world always has the same things in it: mountains, valleys, streams, just like this world, but without the industrialization. The angels always look the same, having 2, 4 and 6 wings. The demons are always similar as well. False Jesuses are in that world to deceive. It's amazing what tell see in that world regardless of if they've ever heard of an angel or Christ before.
I say all of that in order to explain this next part. Multiples have TONS of physical problems. Nearly 100% of them have bad eyesight, and they all have tons of diseases like diabetes and MS and all kinds of stuff. The amount of diseases all depends on how many times they were abused and how badly or different each abuse was. Now, when one alter personality (alter) is about in the body, their eyes will be one color, and they may need glasses to see, and they will have low bloodsugar and things like that. But another alter will come out and suddenly, the bloodsugar is normal, the eyesight is normal and glasses are not needed, the eye color changes, and even the bloodtype changes instantly! All due to a different alter personality coming out. Why? Because that alter personality has different sins than the other alter personality, and so they have different illnesses.
Here's how I help multiples. I talk to each alter personality and I tell them about Jesus. I get them to where they want to accept Jesus, and they are born again. Only certain alters can merge or integrate together with one another in a certain order. So, one girl alter may need to merge/integrate with another girl alter. If that is the case, they can do so after they are both saved, and it happens very quickly, and they both become one single person. You keep doing this until all alters are saved, and all alters have integrated into each other. They all exists together at that point and are of one single mind. It's like putting a puzzle together with a lot of different pieces. You can't see the full picture till you've got them all in place. They can't see what it's like to be of one single mind till all their minds are put together. So, they'll repent of their sins and accept Jesus, one by one, and then they'll start integrating together. Once they do, and they become one single mind again, virtually ALL of their sicknesses and diseases go away. Why? Because now, they've gotten rid of their sins and accepted Jesus and they're clean and healed from their past abuses.
The abuse doesn't haunt them anymore. It doesn't scare them. They are completely healed from it and free of it. Their sins are covered by Jesus, and they go on to lead good lives in very good health. It's funny how the medical community doesn't understand this, and they also say they basically can't help multiples. They say it's the least understood mental illness, and they give multiples a 5 - 15 year lifespan once they're diagnosed as multiple, because the trend is that eventually, an alter will come out and commit suicide, because they will have been in therapy for 5 or 10 years and see that they're making no progress and they'll lose hope and end their lives. Of, if psychology would start looking into the spiritual side of things more readily, they could figure out multiplicity and help these people. But psychologists, at large, will never accept that and will not help people heal via Jesus, and so psychologists will never be able to help multiples fully heal and fully integrate.
My point is that once they get all of their sins repented of and accept Jesus and then integrate into a single mind again, the way they were created before they were abused, suddenly, all of their sicknesses go away. Funny how that stuff works... The book I learned from was written by a guy that helped over 100 multiples heal in 4 years working with them through chat. You can find this book to read online for free:
The Shining Man with Hurt Hands by Ellis H. Skolfield
www.fishhouseministries.com/pdf/ShiningMan.pdf
I highly encourage reading the book. You'll learn things about the spiritual realm you never knew and it'll change your perspective on spiritual warfare and how sin and demons can work. The book is mostly chat logs, so it's a quick read. The author explains how MPD/DID works in the first half of the book. And in the second half, he goes through a woman's healing from beginning to end, showing most of the chat logs and just commenting on what's going on from time to time. This lady has 8 alter personalities, and heals and integrates in a matter of 3 months. That's unheard of in psychology. There's one other book I know of about a multiple that healed, and I don't recall the name, but it took the psychologist 20 years to get this multiple healed, because she wasn't doing it the right way and didn't understand what she was doing fully. She only understood that she had to get all of the alters to agree fully and trust each other fully in order to get them to integrate one by one. And for her, because each alter was not saved, it took weeks or sometimes months for two alters to integrate fully, and many integrations would break apart. If the alters are saved/born again, an integration takes only a few minutes and never falls apart. The lady could've been healed in less than a year had the psychologist known what she was doing.
_____________________________
- Brian
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 5/1/2008 7:24:51 AM
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