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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 5/21/2008 6:29:45 AM
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Neanderthal75
Posts: 29
Joined: 5/21/2008
From: Oil Patch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cchris
I donīt want to get into a debate over the technicalities of a definition.
After all is said and done, only God knows whether a person is worthy of being excused for any particular sin. I wouldn`t even begin to know. But for the price that was payed, whatever decision is beyond reproach.
I agree with you, Jesus is the only path to salvation. However, I believe that Jesus can guide any soul that he wants, even if it has to be done from beyond the grave.
quote:
If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
Hello Chris,
I would argue the point of Hebrews 9:27-"It is appointed unto man once to die and then the Judgement."
Doctrinally speaking, once the soul leaves the body, that's 'it'. The spiritual choice a person has made during his/her lifetime ends when their life ends. A person either chooses Christ while alive or he/she does not choose Christ. Luke 16 is rather clear on the issue of what happens after death.
_____________________________
Yours in Christ Jesus,
Neanderthal
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 5/21/2008 6:37:01 AM
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Neanderthal75
Posts: 29
Joined: 5/21/2008
From: Oil Patch
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: LivingParadox
Suicide is sin and shouldn't be done but when someone does do it is not for us to judge the person or put that kind of thing on the family. Ultimately God is a just and merciful god.
Just curious, if one dies as a result of decades of knowingly consuming food (or substances) that they know is bad for them, coupled with a sedentary lifestyle that kills them long before they would have if they'd taken reasonable care of their "temple," would you say that is also a sin or would it have to only be something that caused one's sudden death?
Hello Jimbo,
I find a few logical discrepancies with your post. Scripture cites that God knows exactly when we die, that we have a set time to die, and this necessarily implies that we die when we're supposed to die (which opens up a whole can of worms on the suicide issue under debate, however, it could escape the whole discussion, based on Free Will).
Hence, I would argue that each and every person who dies of 'natural causes' (which includes violent causes) does so at the 'appointed time.'
_____________________________
Yours in Christ Jesus,
Neanderthal
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 5/21/2008 7:03:52 AM
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Neanderthal75
Posts: 29
Joined: 5/21/2008
From: Oil Patch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WhiteRoseBlessings
quote:
ORIGINAL: Robert_G
My other point is this.
I find it odd that when it comes to suicide, how so many people downplay the seriousness of suicide when it comes to wondering if the person who killed themselves was a Christian or not.
If we were talking about a pedophile who raped and killed little children, I guarantee everyone in this thread would say that these pedophiles aren't Christians, or same with people who rob and kill little old ladies, but the opinions here seem to downplay people (and the seriousness of) who premeditate murder on themselves for whatever reasons.
Premeditated murder in cold blood is premeditated murder in cold blood no matter WHO the person is who gets killed.
First of all, are you talking about where these people will spend eternity? If you are, then you need to pay up on your guarantee. I abhor the crimes you have listed in the post, but I also know that people CAN turn their lives around; and no matter what we may think of someone, Our Lord knows their heart - just like he knows each of our hearts. If a person has truly repented and asked Our Lord into their life, then yes, that person IS a Christian; regardless of what I or anyone else might think of them.
Your posts are extremely harsh. I know this is a sensitive subject and I know that it affects me personally, but I can read other posts from people with whom I disagree on this topic and not find them to be as harsh as yours.
Where were you when I was holding my husband day after day and night after night as he sobbed in my arms?
Do you have any inkling of an idea how incredibly debilitating and humiliating that was for him?
Where were you when I would weep by myself after he left the house to go run an errand?
Where were you when I would throw-up from the stress being caused to both him and me from the disease of chemical depression exacerbated by emotional depression from which he battled?
Where were you when he and I would pray together?
Have you read any of his personal writings? Have you read how he felt about Our Lord? Have you read the myriad of entries he wrote trying to get a grasp on everything and seeking Our Lord's help?
Were you there during any of his and my discussions about faith and hope and trusting in Our Lord?
Were you there during any of the times we explored how to get him healthy on all levels - spiritually, emotionally and physically?
I wish you Our Lord's Peace in your heart and in your life.
edited: typos
Hello there,
I'm a Noobie here and have been going through this thread trying to catch up, post a few quick opening comments, and noticed that you are a very prolific poster (and have been here quite a while).
I just wanted to make this observation but hope you will understand that I am not trying to minimize either your loss or your suffering:
Your posts seem to paint a picture of a person who keeps centering on the viewpoint "God is love, God is love, God is love, ad infinitum", but as with all others whom have taken this pre-eminent position I have encountered, you forget the other 'half' of God's Character: 'God is Holy, God is Holy...ad infinitum'.
The God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob, is the same God Who gave us our Redeemer, Christ Jesus, and allowed us the option of Salvation from our sins.
He is the same God who wiped almost all the men, women, and children, from the face of the Earth through the Flood, is He not?
He is the same God, who ordered Saul to slaughter every man, woman, child, and their animals in that city which Samuel noted?
Is not the God Who gave us our Lord Jesus and through Him the opportunity for Salvation, the same God who has promised to not only put people in the torments of Hell, but thereafter, on the Day of Judgement, to have angels throw those damned souls into the Lake of Fire, where they will suffer forever?
Just because someone was/is harsh (Jesus and His Apostles were extremely harsh at times) does not negate the validity of their arguments. I agree that we need to speak in love to other members of the Body of Christ, but sometimes 'love' needs to be harsh.
I have lost many people I have loved through death (no suicides so far, praise God, though a sister did try), and many of them are almost certainly in Hell right now. My love for them has not abated, nor do I miss them any less, even believing that they are indeed in Hell.
My love is subjective; God's laws/doctrines are not subjective.
I refer you to what our Lord said concerning our Fathers, Mothers, Sister, and Brothers: anyone not willing to abandon them for Christ and His Cause, is unworthy of Him.
I will continue to read your posts as they are very thoughtful and provoke further thought, debate, and consideration.
I hope you will consider mine as well.
< Message edited by Neanderthal75 -- 5/21/2008 7:11:56 AM >
_____________________________
Yours in Christ Jesus,
Neanderthal
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 5/21/2008 7:34:01 AM
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Neanderthal75
Posts: 29
Joined: 5/21/2008
From: Oil Patch
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: crh737
Jesus asked the pharisees,sadducees, and scribes which sin was greater murder or a lie?
His answer: They are equal sin is sin.
Jesus came to save the sinner and died and covers a multitude of sin. The *only sin* not covered is Blasmephy of the Holy Spirit.
Only He knows the condition of one's hearts and no one here has the right to sit on the throne stating their *opinion* or *false* teachings of what God knows.
belief on Him and what He did on the cross to save you.
He will not allow one to slip through his hands. He will never leave or forsake you.
Salvation is secured
There is a mulitiude of sins that we are daily forgiven for and anyone seeking to refute my claims. Please call on my Wise Counselor. He really likes the knee-mail
CRH
Hello there,
I'd like to point out a few particulars about your above:
Believers are reminded that we as members of the Body of Christ do NOT have the right to judge the world, we DO have the right (and responsibility) to judge other members of the Body of Christ and they us; this keeps us all 'honest'.
Further, salvation depends on any given number of issues/doctrines, the key doctrine being a person's belief in Jesus. However, there are a number of "Jesus'" being preached in various churches/temples, but according to both the Apostle Paul and the Apostle Peter, there is ONLY One Jesus who provides salvation.
The Mormons, aka Latter Day Saints, believe in the Jesus who is literally the brother of Lucifer. Their Jesus (pre-incarnation) is also the son of Elohim and one of his many spirit/goddess wives, and Jesus corporeal entry into human linear time was the result of physical sex between Elohim and Mary.
Do you believe in the Mormon Jesus? I certainly do not, as that is NOT the Jesus as described in the Four Gospels, Acts, the Epistles of Paul, James, Peter, Judas, John. We were warned in 2 Cor. 11:4 to REJECT any other 'Jesus' than He whom was preached by Paul and his fellow apostles.
I'd like to provide you with a few other citations and comments, but while the spirit is willing, the flesh is exceedingly weak. I'll try to post again tonight.
_____________________________
Yours in Christ Jesus,
Neanderthal
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 5/21/2008 11:11:41 AM
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DenimDiva
Posts: 6313
Joined: 9/28/2007
From: CA
Status: offline
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Hi Neanderthal75 and weclome to the boards!
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 5/21/2008 11:25:23 AM
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delete123
Posts: 773
Joined: 6/1/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Neanderthal75
quote:
ORIGINAL: crh737
Jesus asked the pharisees,sadducees, and scribes which sin was greater murder or a lie?
His answer: They are equal sin is sin.
Jesus came to save the sinner and died and covers a multitude of sin. The *only sin* not covered is Blasmephy of the Holy Spirit.
Only He knows the condition of one's hearts and no one here has the right to sit on the throne stating their *opinion* or *false* teachings of what God knows.
belief on Him and what He did on the cross to save you.
He will not allow one to slip through his hands. He will never leave or forsake you.
Salvation is secured
There is a mulitiude of sins that we are daily forgiven for and anyone seeking to refute my claims. Please call on my Wise Counselor. He really likes the knee-mail
CRH
Hello there,
I'd like to point out a few particulars about your above:
Believers are reminded that we as members of the Body of Christ do NOT have the right to judge the world, we DO have the right (and responsibility) to judge other members of the Body of Christ and they us; this keeps us all 'honest'.
Further, salvation depends on any given number of issues/doctrines, the key doctrine being a person's belief in Jesus. However, there are a number of "Jesus'" being preached in various churches/temples, but according to both the Apostle Paul and the Apostle Peter, there is ONLY One Jesus who provides salvation.
The Mormons, aka Latter Day Saints, believe in the Jesus who is literally the brother of Lucifer. Their Jesus (pre-incarnation) is also the son of Elohim and one of his many spirit/goddess wives, and Jesus corporeal entry into human linear time was the result of physical sex between Elohim and Mary.
Do you believe in the Mormon Jesus? I certainly do not, as that is NOT the Jesus as described in the Four Gospels, Acts, the Epistles of Paul, James, Peter, Judas, John. We were warned in 2 Cor. 11:4 to REJECT any other 'Jesus' than He whom was preached by Paul and his fellow apostles.
I'd like to provide you with a few other citations and comments, but while the spirit is willing, the flesh is exceedingly weak. I'll try to post again tonight.
I have no clue where you are coming from. I have not judged anyone in my post., so you may be better reading it again when you are awake!
1Peter3:16-18
Having a good conscience, that when they defame you as evildoers, those who revile your good conduct in Christ may be ashamed, v17 for it is better, if it is the will of God, to suffer for doing good than doing evil. v18 for christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the un just (or righteous for the unrighteous), that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the Spirit.
Speak about judging someone: You do not even know me, yet *YOU* are making accusation or assumptions that I am mormon.
CRH
BTW: I am not
< Message edited by crh737 -- 5/21/2008 11:35:41 AM >
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 5/21/2008 11:29:49 AM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6504
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Neanderthal75
God promised that unrepented sin would preclude a person from entering Heaven, and in fact would send that person to Hell.
I'd be interested in seeing that passage in context because chances are 90% of all the believers ever to live died with some unrepented sin in their life.
That's a religion of Kept By Works that defies any assurance of eternal life - in fact makes "eternal life" to be an "iffy life."
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 5/21/2008 11:37:27 AM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6504
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Neanderthal75
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: LivingParadox
Suicide is sin and shouldn't be done but when someone does do it is not for us to judge the person or put that kind of thing on the family. Ultimately God is a just and merciful god.
Just curious, if one dies as a result of decades of knowingly consuming food (or substances) that they know is bad for them, coupled with a sedentary lifestyle that kills them long before they would have if they'd taken reasonable care of their "temple," would you say that is also a sin or would it have to only be something that caused one's sudden death?
Hello Jimbo,
I find a few logical discrepancies with your post. Scripture cites that God knows exactly when we die, that we have a set time to die, and this necessarily implies that we die when we're supposed to die (which opens up a whole can of worms on the suicide issue under debate, however, it could escape the whole discussion, based on Free Will).
Hence, I would argue that each and every person who dies of 'natural causes' (which includes violent causes) does so at the 'appointed time.'
Would that set time and God's knowledge include a suicide's death? I don't see your point.
If someone receives Jesus as Lord and Savior, what transpires between them and God who knows that person will commit suicide 20 years later as a result of a brain tumor that affects their mind? Does God convict, regenerate, and receive that person into the Kingdom by grace through faith knowing that person will die with unrepented sin? Or is God ignorant of the end of such people?
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 5/21/2008 12:02:15 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6504
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Neanderthal75
I'd like to provide you with a few other citations and comments, but while the spirit is willing, the flesh is exceedingly weak. I'll try to post again tonight.
Good morning, sunshine. Just curious, is your purpose to warn what must seem like to you a bunch of potential suicides looking for permission to end it all if the day goes badly, to dash any hope remaining for the several family members posting/reading in this thread that have lost loved ones to suicide, or just impress everyone with your grasp of works-based Christianity?
It just makes me curious when someone joins the forum then camps out in one thread. There is usually a compelling reason or an unresolved issue.
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 5/23/2008 10:05:35 AM
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Neanderthal75
Posts: 29
Joined: 5/21/2008
From: Oil Patch
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: crh737
quote:
ORIGINAL: Neanderthal75
quote:
ORIGINAL: crh737
Jesus asked the pharisees,sadducees, and scribes which sin was greater murder or a lie?
His answer: They are equal sin is sin.
Jesus came to save the sinner and died and covers a multitude of sin. The *only sin* not covered is Blasmephy of the Holy Spirit.
Only He knows the condition of one's hearts and no one here has the right to sit on the throne stating their *opinion* or *false* teachings of what God knows.
belief on Him and what He did on the cross to save you.
He will not allow one to slip through his hands. He will never leave or forsake you.
Salvation is secured
There is a mulitiude of sins that we are daily forgiven for and anyone seeking to refute my claims. Please call on my Wise Counselor. He really likes the knee-mail
CRH
Hello there,
I'd like to point out a few particulars about your above:
Believers are reminded that we as members of the Body of Christ do NOT have the right to judge the world, we DO have the right (and responsibility) to judge other members of the Body of Christ and they us; this keeps us all 'honest'.
Further, salvation depends on any given number of issues/doctrines, the key doctrine being a person's belief in Jesus. However, there are a number of "Jesus'" being preached in various churches/temples, but according to both the Apostle Paul and the Apostle Peter, there is ONLY One Jesus who provides salvation.
The Mormons, aka Latter Day Saints, believe in the Jesus who is literally the brother of Lucifer. Their Jesus (pre-incarnation) is also the son of Elohim and one of his many spirit/goddess wives, and Jesus corporeal entry into human linear time was the result of physical sex between Elohim and Mary.
Do you believe in the Mormon Jesus? I certainly do not, as that is NOT the Jesus as described in the Four Gospels, Acts, the Epistles of Paul, James, Peter, Judas, John. We were warned in 2 Cor. 11:4 to REJECT any other 'Jesus' than He whom was preached by Paul and his fellow apostles.
I'd like to provide you with a few other citations and comments, but while the spirit is willing, the flesh is exceedingly weak. I'll try to post again tonight.
I have no clue where you are coming from. I have not judged anyone in my post., so you may be better reading it again when you are awake!
1Peter3:16-18
Having a good conscience, that when they defame you as evildoers, those who revile your good conduct in Christ may be ashamed, v17 for it is better, if it is the will of God, to suffer for doing good than doing evil. v18 for christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the un just (or righteous for the unrighteous), that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the Spirit.
Speak about judging someone: You do not even know me, yet *YOU* are making accusation or assumptions that I am mormon.
CRH
BTW: I am not
Hey Chris,
The judgment you made was in stating that 'no one here' has the right to state that a suicide goes to Hell.
We all have the right to state our points of view, basing them in Scripture, rather than mere personal opinion.
This is where you were judgmental. I merely stated that we in the Body have both a right and an obligation to judge each other: but using Scriptural basis, not worldly.
Further, you seem to have a chip on your shoulder the size of a California Redwood: I did not call you a Mormon, nor did I even intimate it.
I used the LDS definition of who Jesus is, as an example of the differences in what people believe, pertaining to the issue of Salvation: which IS the main aspect of what we are debating here.
I hope that you'll ASK about something which someone has written, rather than just taking a negative tack.
Cheers.
_____________________________
Yours in Christ Jesus,
Neanderthal
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 5/23/2008 10:10:07 AM
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Neanderthal75
Posts: 29
Joined: 5/21/2008
From: Oil Patch
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: Neanderthal75
God promised that unrepented sin would preclude a person from entering Heaven, and in fact would send that person to Hell.
I'd be interested in seeing that passage in context because chances are 90% of all the believers ever to live died with some unrepented sin in their life.
That's a religion of Kept By Works that defies any assurance of eternal life - in fact makes "eternal life" to be an "iffy life."
Hello Jimbo,
90%? You're kidding right? There's no way of knowing that with any sense of surety. The basis for understand/discerning that issue would be to look at the Pauline Epistles as well as both Peters. 1 John would also be a good measure.
I must also point out that the issue under discussion has NOTHING to do with 'works': doing good has nothing with which to do, concerning a person committing/not committing suicide.
Suicide is not a 'work' it is an act of sin. We're not talking 'brownie points' here, we're talking life and death, both physically and spiritually.
Cheers.
< Message edited by Neanderthal75 -- 5/23/2008 10:36:17 AM >
_____________________________
Yours in Christ Jesus,
Neanderthal
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 5/23/2008 10:12:08 AM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6504
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
I used the LDS definition of who Jesus is, as an example of the differences in what people believe, pertaining to the issue of Salvation: which IS the main aspect of what we are debating here.
Your whole diatribe was so rambling, disjointed, and unrelated to the topic that it was impossible to figure out what point you were trying to make. To me, it's just another example of your lack of a sound grasp of this topic but a dogged determination to foist it on anyone who'll listen.
I mean that in the kindest way.
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 5/23/2008 10:14:12 AM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6504
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Neanderthal75
Hell Jimbo,
90%? You're kidding right?...
I was probably low, maybe 98%.
BTW, is that the way you address other believers at your church too?
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 5/23/2008 10:22:41 AM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6504
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Neanderthal75
Suicide is not a 'work' it is an act of sin. We're not talking 'brownie points' here, we're talking life and death, both physically and spiritually.
I'm not sure why I expected you to get that. Let me put it another way: You seem to be hanging your hopes on getting to heaven by not having any unconfessed sin when you die (being good = sinless) which is nothing more than a works-based salvation. You seem to believe that you are saved by grace but kept by works (or absence of sin - same thing).
You leave no room for having your life ended instantly between confession of sin - an explosion, gunshot to the head by a robber, a wreck, a stroke, a heart attack, etc.
Don't forget, there are sins of omission and sins of ignorance. The OT let us know that God still holds us accountable for even sins we don't know about. Unless your hope is in the completed, sinless works of Jesus Christ, you are playing Russian roulette with 6 rounds in the chamber and don't even know it.
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 5/23/2008 10:30:05 AM
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Neanderthal75
Posts: 29
Joined: 5/21/2008
From: Oil Patch
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: Neanderthal75
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: LivingParadox
Suicide is sin and shouldn't be done but when someone does do it is not for us to judge the person or put that kind of thing on the family. Ultimately God is a just and merciful god.
Just curious, if one dies as a result of decades of knowingly consuming food (or substances) that they know is bad for them, coupled with a sedentary lifestyle that kills them long before they would have if they'd taken reasonable care of their "temple," would you say that is also a sin or would it have to only be something that caused one's sudden death?
Hello Jimbo,
I find a few logical discrepancies with your post. Scripture cites that God knows exactly when we die, that we have a set time to die, and this necessarily implies that we die when we're supposed to die (which opens up a whole can of worms on the suicide issue under debate, however, it could escape the whole discussion, based on Free Will).
Hence, I would argue that each and every person who dies of 'natural causes' (which includes violent causes) does so at the 'appointed time.'
Would that set time and God's knowledge include a suicide's death? I don't see your point.
If someone receives Jesus as Lord and Savior, what transpires between them and God who knows that person will commit suicide 20 years later as a result of a brain tumor that affects their mind? Does God convict, regenerate, and receive that person into the Kingdom by grace through faith knowing that person will die with unrepented sin? Or is God ignorant of the end of such people?
Hello again Jimbo,
You're barking up the wrong tree yet again Jimbo. You're trying to take an exception and make it the rule. Most suicides statistically, do not suffer from a brain tumor, which would necessarily impact their cognitive ability to discern right from wrong.
Given your scenario, that person could not be held responsible for their actions, as they would not be in control of their faculties: the tumor would be the cause of their derangement.
Physically healthy people do not have such an excuse; a person just can't throw up their arms and declare that their depression has left them bereft of their ability to know wrong from right. Does depression affect such a person? Sure, been there and done that thank you. Not a good place to be, and one that starts with a negative (satanic) viewpoint of both self and other than self.
Christ proved that that type of viewpoint (self-absorbed) is indeed sin and from Satan.
We know for a fact that murder, the taking of innocent human life without just cause, IS sin. Murder can be forgiven, but in the case of self-murder, asking for forgiveness is not possible-the suicide is dead so no forgiveness is possible.
The foundational and underlying issue of this whole argument, is whether or not we as members of the Body of Christ are going to be faithful and submit ourselves to God and His Will, or whether we shall supercede His with ours.
By this I mean that despite knowing what the biblical doctrine is about unrepented sin, we decide to place our love for our loved ones who suicided, above our love for and to God.
This is what I meant when I cited the paraphrase from Christ concerning anyone wanting to follow Him, that such a person must be willing to abandon father, mother, brother, sister, son, daughter, et al, in favor of putting God first in our lives.
I have lost people I loved through the years, many were not saved when they died, some were still almost certainly deep in unrepentant sin when they died.
When they died in those spiritual states, I had the choice of putting my love for them before my love for God, or obeying the command of Christ to put God first.
This is my main point. I never said it was easy. I never said it doesn't/wouldn't/wont cost us emotionally. I am merely stating that the choice is clear: to put God before ourselves and our families.
My doctrinal position is in no way, shape, or form, meant to dismiss, demean, or lessen the pain or feelings of loss, that those whom have lost loved ones to suicide feel.
What I'm trying to do is to remind us all that the world forces us all to choose between God's Ways and the World's Ways. It is a daily trial; some trials easy and some horrifically difficult.
Cheers
_____________________________
Yours in Christ Jesus,
Neanderthal
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 5/23/2008 10:35:21 AM
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Neanderthal75
Posts: 29
Joined: 5/21/2008
From: Oil Patch
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: Neanderthal75
Hell Jimbo,
90%? You're kidding right?...
I was probably low, maybe 98%.
BTW, is that the way you address other believers at your church too?
Hello again Jimbo,
You know Jimbo, were you more interested in being honest, rather than trying to make brownie points or play 'gotcha' you might actually have something interesting to say. What I've seen of your posts however, is that you're much more interested in demeaning people, than arguing honestly.
A pity.
_____________________________
Yours in Christ Jesus,
Neanderthal
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 5/23/2008 10:37:55 AM
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doinkdom
Posts: 4132
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: The higher lowcountry
Status: offline
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neanderthal75
Are you saying that a Christian cannot commit suicide, yes or no?
thanks
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 5/23/2008 10:45:56 AM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6504
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
You're barking up the wrong tree yet again Jimbo. You're trying to take an exception and make it the rule. Most suicides statistically, do not suffer from a brain tumor, which would necessarily impact their cognitive ability to discern right from wrong.
You have a grain of understanding but assume that the vast majority of suicides make a choice like changing TV channels when watching an unpleasant movie.
What you do not get and seem to refuse to understand, most suicides are not suffering financial, relationship, career, health, or other insurmountable problems. If you take a casual look at their lives, you might conclude theirs is either wonderful or just simply normal. A common response of friends and loved ones is surprise and shock.
But you seem to think they just decided to end it all for no good reason while being completely rational.
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My doctrinal position is in no way, shape, or form, meant to dismiss, demean, or lessen the pain or feelings of loss, that those whom have lost loved ones to suicide feel.
I assume you meant "or increase the pain or feelings of loss." At least, I sure hope so.
But you don't seem to care if sharing your view makes them feel dismissed, demeaned, and increase their pain. The biblical command is to speak the truth in love - and 1 Cor. 13 tells us what godly love is like - kind and considerate, among other things.
Always stating your mind is not "just being honest," sometimes it is just being insensitive and unconcerned for anyone else but the one unloading on others.
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 5/23/2008 10:51:54 AM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6504
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Neanderthal75
You know Jimbo, were you more interested in being honest...
Sir, if I thought you had an honest, considered, and informed opinion to offer, I'd address you in kind. This topic isn't just a game of how many paragraphs of diatribe one can cram into a single post, but a very serious one that deserves the mind and heart of Christ to address.
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 5/23/2008 10:53:45 AM
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Neanderthal75
Posts: 29
Joined: 5/21/2008
From: Oil Patch
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: Neanderthal75
Suicide is not a 'work' it is an act of sin. We're not talking 'brownie points' here, we're talking life and death, both physically and spiritually.
I'm not sure why I expected you to get that. Let me put it another way: You seem to be hanging your hopes on getting to heaven by not having any unconfessed sin when you die (being good = sinless) which is nothing more than a works-based salvation. You seem to believe that you are saved by grace but kept by works (or absence of sin - same thing).
You leave no room for having your life ended instantly between confession of sin - an explosion, gunshot to the head by a robber, a wreck, a stroke, a heart attack, etc.
Don't forget, there are sins of omission and sins of ignorance. The OT let us know that God still holds us accountable for even sins we don't know about. Unless your hope is in the completed, sinless works of Jesus Christ, you are playing Russian roulette with 6 rounds in the chamber and don't even know it.
Hello again Jimbo,
Apparently you either don't or can't distinguish between volitional and unvolitional sin. I trust God fully in the area of unvolitional sin: I'm covered by the Blood regardless of unvolitional.
Volitional sin is another matter. What you seem to be professing is a variant of Rasputian Theology: we're all saved by Grace, so we can go right ahead and sin when, where, and to whatever degree we want-after all, we're saved so what does it matter?
This is the dichotomy which you seem to be avoiding like the plague: sins I commit which I do not know I'm committing, those I leave to God through the Covering Blood of Christ; and I ask for forgiveness for just such sins when I pray. The volitional sins I commit; through anger, frustration, thoughtlessness, pain, etc., I ask God to forgive me because I know they're sins against God and of which I do repent, because I know they offend Him.
Christ's Blood covers ALL sins; both volitional and unvolitional. Both are covered at the time of death, because volitional should have been dealt with already, while the unvolitional are covered 'automatically' if you will.
Willfully harboring sin is a big time boo-boo and wholly unregenerative. We've all done it at some point or another and for various reasons; but at some point we pull our heads out and deal with the sins in prayer.
God knows the state of our souls at the times of our deaths, neither I nor any other human for a 100% certainty can say that for a fact.
What we CAN say, is what the Bible teaches: that volitional sin unrepented causes a separation between God and Man, should that separation maintain at the time of death, I would argue that the Bible teaches that such a soul is bound for Hell.
Suicide is the sin of unrepented murder. Last time I checked, unrepentent Murderers are not to be found in Heaven.
Cheers
_____________________________
Yours in Christ Jesus,
Neanderthal
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 5/23/2008 10:59:56 AM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6504
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
Apparently you either don't or can't distinguish between volitional and unvolitional sin. I trust God fully in the area of unvolitional sin: I'm covered by the Blood regardless of unvolitional.
That's purty. What it boils down to is that you're covered no matter what you do but not someone without your particular pet vices.
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Suicide is the sin of unrepented murder. Last time I checked, unrepentent Murderers are not to be found in Heaven.
That shows a complete lack of consistency in your doctrine and a misrepresentation of biblical salvation.
I'm guessing you can't see that either.
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 5/23/2008 11:10:18 AM
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Neanderthal75
Posts: 29
Joined: 5/21/2008
From: Oil Patch
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
You're barking up the wrong tree yet again Jimbo. You're trying to take an exception and make it the rule. Most suicides statistically, do not suffer from a brain tumor, which would necessarily impact their cognitive ability to discern right from wrong.
You have a grain of understanding but assume that the vast majority of suicides make a choice like changing TV channels when watching an unpleasant movie.
What you do not get and seem to refuse to understand, most suicides are not suffering financial, relationship, career, health, or other insurmountable problems. If you take a casual look at their lives, you might conclude theirs is either wonderful or just simply normal. A common response of friends and loved ones is surprise and shock.
quote:
But you seem to think they just decided to end it all for no good reason while being completely rational.
quote:
My doctrinal position is in no way, shape, or form, meant to dismiss, demean, or lessen the pain or feelings of loss, that those whom have lost loved ones to suicide feel.
I assume you meant "or increase the pain or feelings of loss." At least, I sure hope so.
But you don't seem to care if sharing your view makes them feel dismissed, demeaned, and increase their pain. The biblical command is to speak the truth in love - and 1 Cor. 13 tells us what godly love is like - kind and considerate, among other things.
Always stating your mind is not "just being honest," sometimes it is just being insensitive and unconcerned for anyone else but the one unloading on others.
Hello again,
You are correct concerning the misnomer I wrote concerning the pain of those suffering: I should have also used the phrase 'impact of' to convey what I meant. Thank you for noting that to me.
I do indeed care how my words impact others, both those suffering loss and those who might suffer loss.
What I care for even more, is making sure that people try to get the best grasp possible on biblical doctrine, rather than nice sounding words, built upon worldly doctrines.
Far too many Christians and far too many churches are putting worldly aspects/concerns/affairs ahead of biblical doctrine. Nothing new of course; the OT Prophets, Christ, and His Apostles/Disciples confronted the same thing in their days.
We all have the same choice: serve God or serve the world; tell honestly and openly what the Word of God says, or speak mollifying words which the world dictates to be acceptable.
This latter position is what you and many others seem to want to take.
Tell me Jimbo, what 'good reason' is there for murdering someone, even oneself?
You seem to want to justify the reasons which a suicide presents him/herself, literally convincing themselves that taking their own lives is alright, because they have the 'right reasons'.
Your rationale smacks of yet more worldly rationalizations for all sorts of actions, rather than adhering to biblical principles.
Again putting human will ahead of God's Will.
Cheers.
_____________________________
Yours in Christ Jesus,
Neanderthal
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RE: is suicide forgiven? - 5/23/2008 11:16:36 AM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6504
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
What I care for even more, is making sure that people try to get the best grasp possible on biblical doctrine, rather than nice sounding words, built upon worldly doctrines.
Far too many Christians and far too many churches are putting worldly aspects/concerns/affairs ahead of biblical doctrine. Nothing new of course; the OT Prophets, Christ, and His Apostles/Disciples confronted the same thing in their days.
Great, something we agree on! Fact is, if you knew me, I wouldn't have to say so.
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