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RE: Erwin Raphael McManus | Mosaic - 2/26/2008 2:06:06 AM
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SD456
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jacobwdowning
I hope that I am not to late to join this conversation. I had not heard of Erwin or the EC before I attend the Willow Creek worship and Arts conference this past year. After hearing most most of the speakers there and not agreeing with any of them, Erwin closed out the conference and seemed to contridict everything the other speakers said. Since then I have read the Barbarian Way which I thought was an incredible book and have listen to the Mosaic podcast on a regular basis. I have heard a few things that he has said in the podcast that seemed a little off but most of it is solid. The thing that concerns me is that little bit that he is off. Am I missing things. I have read articles online from that Apprissing sight but they seem to think everyone is wrong but them. I am not emerging in the least bit, at least from what I know of it. I would really like to hear more about this topic. If the guy from UT could give me some places to look or some info, that would be great.
I will guarantee you that you, me and everyone on this earth has some things that are 'a little off'. There's no way around it. If I sat and had a conversation with you, it probably wouldn't take me long to find things you say that I don't agree with and vice versa. I would think you're a bit off and you would think the same of me.
We've all got to learn that in non-essentials we show grace and liberty in our beliefs. Otherwise, you won't be able to have any leaders or pastors over you, since everyone is a little bit off.
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RE: Erwin Raphael McManus | Mosaic - 2/26/2008 7:23:09 PM
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jacobwdowning
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I agree totally but if that conversation were to take place it would just be the two of us. When your in a position of leadership, you have incredible influence. Erwin has even talked about this in one of his messages which talks about, what do you do when you realize that your the most powerful person in the room. Unfortunatly, not all people in church discern things very well, so it scares me when a leader with a big congregation and even bigger podcast audience is a little off wondering who is just following him blindly and not testing what he is saying with the word.
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RE: Erwin Raphael McManus | Mosaic - 2/26/2008 8:28:19 PM
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SD456
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jacobwdowning
I agree totally but if that conversation were to take place it would just be the two of us. When your in a position of leadership, you have incredible influence. Erwin has even talked about this in one of his messages which talks about, what do you do when you realize that your the most powerful person in the room. Unfortunatly, not all people in church discern things very well, so it scares me when a leader with a big congregation and even bigger podcast audience is a little off wondering who is just following him blindly and not testing what he is saying with the word.
But like I said, we're ALL a little off and we don't realize it. None of us can see our blind spots, that's why they're called that. Erwin is no different than any of us. He doesn't recognize places that he might be a little off any more than you recognize your own. There is no preacher under the sun who is has perfect doctrine and understanding in every subject, so they will ALWAYS preach something, somewhere, a little off.
"we see in a glass darkly", "we only know in part". Erwin isn't going to be able to get away from his human nature, and to expect him to be able to, isn't realistic.
God is fully big enough to lead His children into truth, albeit on different time-lines. So don't be scared, trust God. He'll take care of His sheep that know His voice - and if they don't know His voice, are they His sheep?
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RE: Erwin Raphael McManus | Mosaic - 2/26/2008 8:30:43 PM
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earthless
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SD,
Yes, but some of those that call themselves Christians are way way off... off to the point where they are preaching a false jesus, etc..
You do acknowledge that fact, correct?
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RE: Erwin Raphael McManus | Mosaic - 2/26/2008 8:34:36 PM
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SD456
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
SD,
Yes, but some of those that call themselves Christians are way way off... off to the point where they are preaching a false jesus, etc..
You do acknowledge that fact, correct?
Sure: Joseph Smith, Charles Russel, David Koresh; there will always be people like them.
But jacobwdowning (boy, that sounds like a guy who owns a bank or something - very fancy) is speaking about someone who he believes is a "little" off and his fear of that preacher being a little off; and perhaps he's not off at all. Perhaps jacob is a little off and doesn't understand the truths that Erwin is speaking about? That's just as possible.
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RE: Erwin Raphael McManus | Mosaic - 2/27/2008 8:06:19 AM
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earthless
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SD,
So no one in the Christian TV/radio circuit preaches heretical teachings?
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RE: Erwin Raphael McManus | Mosaic - 2/27/2008 1:19:57 PM
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jacobwdowning
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Please don't get me wrong about Ewrin, you could say that I love his teaching for the most part. I am not so much concerned for myself not being able to discern but for the majority of people in my generation that are seeming to be swept away by this very humanistic Emerging Church Movement. Not saying that all are bad in the movement or that all aspects of what they teach are bad. Just concerned.
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RE: Erwin Raphael McManus | Mosaic - 2/27/2008 2:40:05 PM
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SD456
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jacobwdowning
Please don't get me wrong about Ewrin, you could say that I love his teaching for the most part. I am not so much concerned for myself not being able to discern but for the majority of people in my generation that are seeming to be swept away by this very humanistic Emerging Church Movement. Not saying that all are bad in the movement or that all aspects of what they teach are bad. Just concerned.
I think it's best if we turn our concerns over to Jesus and trust God to work in people's lives and teach them truth. It doesn't help the body to speak about our suspicions, concerns and fears, that simply breed suspicion and fear amongst those of weaker faith.
We should pray for those we are concerned about and let God be God.
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RE: Erwin Raphael McManus | Mosaic - 2/27/2008 2:41:29 PM
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SD456
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
SD,
So no one in the Christian TV/radio circuit preaches heretical teachings?
I've heard error in doctrine, but not heresy. Unless you can say for a fact that the ones you speak about are going to hell? If you are unsure whether they are going to hell or not, then you are unsure as to whether they teach heresy and so should NEVER use that word about them.
But then again, I've heard things you've said that I think are in error, too. We're all part of the human race.
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RE: Erwin Raphael McManus | Mosaic - 2/27/2008 2:47:25 PM
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YvonneW
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Jacobwdowning,
Speaking as a former member of Mosaic and the daughter of one it's former pastors, all I want to say to you about Erwin McManus is this: trust your instincts.
Take care,
Yvonne W.
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RE: Erwin Raphael McManus | Mosaic - 2/27/2008 7:16:11 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SD456
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
SD,
So no one in the Christian TV/radio circuit preaches heretical teachings?
I've heard error in doctrine, but not heresy. Unless you can say for a fact that the ones you speak about are going to hell? If you are unsure whether they are going to hell or not, then you are unsure as to whether they teach heresy and so should NEVER use that word about them.
But then again, I've heard things you've said that I think are in error, too. We're all part of the human race.
Is preaching that God is a trinity of 9 persons, each with their own body and spirit, is that heresy?
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Erwin Raphael McManus | Mosaic - 2/27/2008 9:43:41 PM
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jacobwdowning
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YvoneW,
What is your feelings about Mosaic and Ewrin. Having such a close relationship with them would be great insight.
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RE: Erwin Raphael McManus | Mosaic - 2/27/2008 10:06:38 PM
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mushhead
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stateofgrace
quote:
When did this happen? The article was published only a few months ago. The last time I checked Mark did still consider himself part of the movement and was calling for a divide in it. At that time only 'he" seemed to be standing up calling for a divide or reform.
I think this will explain where he stands.
In the mid-1990s I was part of what is now known as the Emerging Church and spent some time traveling the country to speak on the emerging church in the emerging culture on a team put together by Leadership Network called the Young Leader Network. But, I eventually had to distance myself from the Emergent stream of the network because friends like Brian McLaren and Doug Pagitt began pushing a theological agenda that greatly troubled me. Examples include referring to God as a chick, questioning God's sovereignty over and knowledge of the future, denial of the substitutionary atonement at the cross, a low view of Scripture, and denial of hell which is one hell of a mistake.
There is also an article on Christianity Today that explains more of his position.
stateofgrace,
You are absolutely right that Driscoll has distanced himself from the liberal/heretical teachings of the emerging church (EC). However, he has not distanced himself from the EC. Instead he promotes the concept of two emerging churches. One is the "emergent" church consisting of McLaren, Pagitt, and a whole host of other very bad teachers; the other is the "emerging" church which consists of guys like himself that are doctrinally orthodox.
There are a number of problems with Driscoll's position:
1-"emergent" and "emerging" are variants of the same word and any attempt to use them to identify doctrinal distinctions is, at best, confusing.
2-for the distinction to work, both factions must agree. They do not! McLaren and the boys still use the term "emerging" to describe themselves.
3-The emerging/emergent church is utterly heretical. Identifying oneself in any way with such teaching only adds to the possibillity that unsuspecting listeners, readers, or whoever, will be inadvertantly subjected to the false teachings of false teachers.
4-I live in Utah where we have mormons. Driscoll calling himself emerging is akin to my calling myself a mormon in order to reach mormons.
5-The identification continues to muddy the doctrinal waters. Dan Kimball and others (including some of the pastors in the Acts 29 group of churches) that are identified as doctrinally orthodox when preaching salvation, are not orthodox in practice. For example, Kimball endorses the use of prayer labyrinths, which are an ancient pagan practice to connect with the divine. Also, some of these orthodox emerging ministers speak and write about Pagitt, McLaren and other heretical teachers in glowing terms. Suggesting that much value can be gained from their teachings. That is a terrible practice that is akin to my telling people they can learn much of value for their walks with Jesus from the prophet of the LDS church.
6- (closely related to #5) calling oneself emerging inadvertantly bestows legitimacy to heretical teachers.
< Message edited by mushhead -- 2/27/2008 10:41:23 PM >
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MUSHHEAD
Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces. Matt. 7:6
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RE: Erwin Raphael McManus | Mosaic - 2/27/2008 10:27:48 PM
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mushhead
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From: Kearns
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jacobwdowning
I hope that I am not to late to join this conversation. I had not heard of Erwin or the EC before I attend the Willow Creek worship and Arts conference this past year. After hearing most most of the speakers there and not agreeing with any of them, Erwin closed out the conference and seemed to contridict everything the other speakers said. Since then I have read the Barbarian Way which I thought was an incredible book and have listen to the Mosaic podcast on a regular basis. I have heard a few things that he has said in the podcast that seemed a little off but most of it is solid. The thing that concerns me is that little bit that he is off. Am I missing things. I have read articles online from that Apprissing sight but they seem to think everyone is wrong but them. I am not emerging in the least bit, at least from what I know of it. I would really like to hear more about this topic. If the guy from UT could give me some places to look or some info, that would be great.
jacobwdowning,
You will be able to find some good sources of information, but you must be discerning about some of the websites you use for information. that said, your instincts about Apprising.com are mostly correct. I have read outrageous pieces that I personally knew were wrong. I also personally checked out one of their claims about a local minister back east, because it affected Southern Baptists. Apprisings story was simply untrue.
You can read articles about the EC posted on Christianity Today's site that is dedicated to the EC. It is called, "out of ur." However, you must understand that the "journalistic" stories are not journalism at all. The author of many of the articles (last name Stanley) interviews the subject and draws his conclusions as if everything he was told is true. He does not interview respected theologian like, Albert Mohler, D.A.Carson, or John MacArther to offer balance to the stories.
If you want to learn more about the EC then I suggest reading the following three books:
1-Becoming Conversant With The Emergent Church by D.A. Carson
2-The Emergent Manifesto of Hope; Edited by Tony Jones and Doug Pagitt. (This is the best book from an EC perspective. It is a collection of essays written by a variety of emergents. Each essay discusses some aspect of the EC as it relates to the EC's current and future structure and mission)
3-A Generous Orthodoxy by Brian McLaren; (McLaren is the most popular and influential of all EC leaders. This book seeks to lay out what the EC teaches and why) Many deny McLaren's influence of position, however, the fact that McLaren's A Generous Orhtodoxy accurately portrays the EC mindset and theology is demonstrable.
edited: to remove a book that was listed prematurely
< Message edited by mushhead -- 2/27/2008 10:39:32 PM >
_____________________________
MUSHHEAD
Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces. Matt. 7:6
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RE: Erwin Raphael McManus | Mosaic - 2/27/2008 11:27:20 PM
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YvonneW
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Jacobwdowning,
Erwin McManus is a very charming and dynamic leader. It is extremely easy to get caught up in his enthusiasm and the "passion" of his messages and "mission."
Please don't get me wrong, I think both he and Mosaic have done and are still doing some phenomenal things for the cause of Christ.
Having said this though, I'm afraid there is more than enough objective evidence to show that Erwin McManus has both a public face and a darker, private face that most people don't see, or perhaps don't want to see.
In my earlier post to this thread, I mentioned that Erwin has said, written or allowed other to say or write, some pretty harsh things about former co-workers at Mosaic. Here are the worst examples of such behavior that I've been able to discover and document so far:
1. In a 2002 online Q and A for his book, "An Unstoppable Force" Erwin said some very strong things about Pastor Thomas A. Wolf, the former lead pastor of the Church on Brady.
http://easumbandy.com/fileadmin/community/Coaching_Seminar_Archive_Files/Erwin_McManus_062002-An_Unstoppable_Force.pdf
In his comments, Erwin paints an extremely unflattering portrait of his former boss and implies that "Bro. Tom" was forced to leave the church by the elders.
This is absolutely NOT TRUE!
My father was an elder before this incident with Bro. Tom happened and my father remained as an elder until a few months after his retirement from Mosaic in Jan. 2007. In fact, my father was ordained by Bro. Tom and served under his ministry long before Erwin was called to take over as lead pastor. Erwin and Bro. Tom did "butt heads" over many issues but the truth is that they were simply two different people with different ideas on how to best reach the lost. Erwin makes Bro. Tom sound like a selfish, stubborn old man who didn't want to relinquish his position to a younger man with "fresh ideas." This is ridiculous. Bro. Tom is the man who recommended Erwin McManus as his successor!
2. Back in 2000, Erwin McManus wrote an article for Christianity Today entitled, "Broken People Can Become Whole Disciples."
"Broken People Can Become Whole Disciples.” Erwin McManus, Christianity Today International/Leadership Journal, Spring 2000, Vol. XXI, No. 2, Page 48
In this article, he uses the life story of a former youth pastor at Mosaic, Robbie Sortino as an illustration of a "broken" individual. The language Erwin uses to describe Mr. Sortino is very inflammatory and shocking. Most of what Erwin says about Robbie's life was told to him in confidence during PRIVATE counseling sessions!
But the worst part about this article is that Erwin McManus publicly "outed" Robbie's ex-wife! (They had sought marriage counseling from Erwin.)
Neither Mr. Sortino nor his ex-wife gave Erwin McManus permission to retell their story. Understandably, Mr. Sortino's family has suffered a great deal of pain and embarrassment from this whole fiasco.
I know all this is true because I interviewed Robbie Sortino for a story I wrote about this issue. In early 2007, Robbie posted a blog in which he complained about the way he had been treated at Mosaic. Soon after this blog appeared, I found an altered version of Erwin's article entitled: "Broken Pieces" at http://erwinmcmanus.com/broken-pieces. In this newer version, all of the passages related to Robbie Sortino and his wife were omitted.
I have kept in contact with many of my former brothers and sisters from the Church on Brady/Mosaic. It was through these contacts that I first heard about what had happened to Robbie and once we all began to "compare notes" with eachother, other similar stories were revealed.
3. I heard from another former member, Eddie Marshall (former missionary from CoB/Mosaic) that when he and his wife decided to leave Mosaic, Erwin tried to explain their departure to another missionary couple as being related to one of their minor children. This was personal information about a TODDLER child that was told to Erwin during private counseling sessions and had absolutely nothing to do with the real reason why Eddie and his wife were leaving. If it hadn't been for the fact that this other couple contacted Eddie and his wife to find out if the story was true, the Marshall's might have never known that Erwin had done this.
Jacob, you asked me what I thought of Erwin McManus. My thoughts are that if a leader is going to base a ministry around buzz words such as "integrity", and "authenticity" and speak at events such as the "Lead Like Jesus" conference then shouldn't that leader match his private behavior to his public face?
I hope I won't be banned from this forum for posting this but since you asked me a direct question, I felt you deserved a direct answer.
Yvonne W.
(I have uncovered many examples of Erwin's "spin" on events pertaining to the Church on Brady but they are too numerous to reprint here.)
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RE: Erwin Raphael McManus | Mosaic - 2/28/2008 2:42:24 AM
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SD456
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quote:
ORIGINAL: YvonneW
Jacobwdowning,
Speaking as a former member of Mosaic and the daughter of one it's former pastors, all I want to say to you about Erwin McManus is this: trust your instincts.
Take care,
Yvonne W.
I have to wonder the motive of someone coming on and saying a comment like that. Is it to purposely breed suspicion in another's heart?
We've all been in enough churches where people have left angry and hurt because of things that they've done to themselves (it's not always the "pastor's" fault). There are two sides to every story and unless we hear from both sides, we are to NEVER take sides.
Erwin is a wonderful, godly man who lives his life fully for Jesus. Not perfect, and neither is your father for that matter. It's time to forgive and stop spreading inuendos and gossip about someone that you feel hurt you or yours.
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RE: Erwin Raphael McManus | Mosaic - 2/28/2008 11:03:56 AM
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jacobwdowning
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I have heard of both of those stories before on a website that seems to be spawned from former members of Church on Brady. I can't say as the previous post says that we will have any complete answer to that question because we can't not sit and here both sides of the story. When I asked what you thought of Erwin I was thinking more about his teaching and theology then his personnel life. I find (even with myself) that God choose to use really messed up people to complete his perfect will. If those carrying his message had it all together, then we would not need God. I have learned through my time in ministry that most times when someone is preaching they are more preaching to themsevles then they are to the congregation. So agian I pose the question, what do you think of Ewrin's teaching and theology. Would you consider it EC or sound.
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RE: Erwin Raphael McManus | Mosaic - 2/28/2008 11:26:09 AM
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YvonneW
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SD456,
quote:
ORIGINAL: SD456
I have to wonder the motive of someone coming on and saying a comment like that. Is it to purposely breed suspicion in another's heart?
We've all been in enough churches where people have left angry and hurt because of things that they've done to themselves (it's not always the "pastor's" fault). There are two sides to every story and unless we hear from both sides, we are to NEVER take sides.
Erwin is a wonderful, godly man who lives his life fully for Jesus. Not perfect, and neither is your father for that matter. It's time to forgive and stop spreading inuendos and gossip about someone that you feel hurt you or yours.
SD456:
I have not said anything in regards to myself or my father. I left Mosaic more than 10 years ago and harbor no personal anger towards Erwin McManus.
What interests me most about your response though is that you immediately jumped to the conclusion that because I have a few criticisms about Erwin McManus, I must be some type of "disgruntled" ex-member with an axe to grind AND that I must have "done something" to make myself that way.
My question to you is this: what part of my last post was based on gossip and innuendo? I gave a clear reference to the article in Chrisitianity Today's Leadership Journal where you can find the piece Erwin wrote about Mr. Sortino.
Here is a link to where you may still be able to find that article online (unless it has been removed.)
Broken People Can Become Whole Disciples
http://www.christianitytoday.com/biblestudies/areas/biblestudies/articles/040916.html
The other link I provided points to Erwin's own words about the "mistake" he made in allowing Pastor Thomas Wolf to remain at the Church on Brady.
The last example I gave is from a comment posted to my personal blog. Since I don't want to be banned from this forum, I won't put up a direct link to that site, but I can assure you that everything I have written has been well researched and documented.
SD456, you wrote:
quote:
Erwin is a wonderful, godly man who lives his life fully for Jesus. Not perfect, and neither is your father for that matter. It's time to forgive and stop spreading inuendos and gossip about someone that you feel hurt you or yours.
Of course my father is not perfect and I never claimed that he was. Again, you are assuming this is about my father when it isn't.
What I would like to know is this, why is it apparently okay for Erwin McManus to say and write the hurtful things he has said and written about other people but its not okay for anyone to complain about being hurt by those words?
And why is it wrong for me to expose these hurtful words?
I didn't say/write these things, Erwin did. The fact that he has gotten away with it for so long doesn't excuse him for doing it in the first place.
Yvonne W.
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RE: Erwin Raphael McManus | Mosaic - 2/28/2008 11:33:41 AM
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YvonneW
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Jacobwdowning:
Based on the things I have heard in his podcasts and other materials, I would have to say that Erwin has strong leanings towards the emergent church movement.
Erwin will deny this, yet he writes a column for The Church Report Online,
called, "The Emerging Angle."
Here is one link back to that site:
http://www.thecronline.com/mag_article.php?mid=1016&mname=June
Erwin likes to play semantics with words like "emergent" and "emerging."
It's all very confusing but personally, I don't buy the distinction between the two.
Yvonne W.
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RE: Erwin Raphael McManus | Mosaic - 2/28/2008 11:49:59 AM
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jacobwdowning
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I think the problem here lies with the definition. There is no clear structure to this movement. I have not had any personal conversations with Erwin but I have had one with some of his leadership team. There theology, as you can see at the end of the articile is very orthodox. I can't find anything wrong and after the conversation with the leadership, there core beliefs are very conservative. I have even heard in Erwin's podcast's him preach very clearly against things such as homosexuality, sex before marriage, abortion, and on and on with the issuse that important to most evangelical christians. So I ask this, are there good things about the EC. Should we not look at what they are doing, take the good and throw out the bad. There are many churches who do this but yet still come them selves emerging, maybe meaning trying to reach a younger generation with new ways of evanglism. Is that wrong. The problem is if you say your AOG or SBC there is certain things that go along with that that people excpect as with WOF or any other major denom or movment. With Emerging/Emergent, there is no clear definition we all attain to this. So how can you say that Erwin is not good because he uses the term "emerging angle". Could he simply mean the not judging angle as most people in what they would call modern churches are more willing to cast the first stone then to realize the sin in there own life.
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RE: Erwin Raphael McManus | Mosaic - 2/28/2008 2:52:16 PM
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YvonneW
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Jacobwdowning:
You wrote,
quote:
So how can you say that Erwin is not good because he uses the term "emerging angle". Could he simply mean the not judging angle as most people in what they would call modern churches are more willing to cast the first stone then to realize the sin in there own life.
I didn't say "Erwin is not good because he uses the term "emerging angle." Please don't put words in my mouth.
In my post above, I wrote that Erwin and Mosaic "have done and are still doing some phenomenal things for the cause of Christ." What I meant by this is that they have done some very GOOD things in their ministry.
What bothers me though are the things that are not so good.
If, as you wrote, when Erwin uses the "emerging angle" he means to describe himself as non-judgemental and not willing to "cast the first stone" without first looking at the sin in one's own life, then why has he used judgemental language about other people? Has he taken the time to really look at himself lately?
This is what the "Lead Like Jesus" conference taught it's attendees:
LEAD LIKE JESUS
Hosted by Kenneth Blanchard and Erwin McManus
Twelve Steps of EGOs Anonymous
1. I admit I have allowed my pride and fears to negatively impact my role as a Jesus-like leader.
2. I believe that God can transform my leadership motives, thoughts, and actions to be like those modeled by Jesus.
3. I have decided to surrender my leadership efforts to God and to follow the leadership model of Jesus.
4. I will make an inventory of my leadership motives, thoughts, and actions that are inconsistent with Servant Leadership.
5. I admit to God, to myself and to at least one other person the nature of my leadership gaps.
6. I am ready to have God remove all character defects that have created gaps in my leadership.
7. I ask God to remove my shortcomings and to strengthen me against the pride and fear temptations of my EGO.
8. I will list individuals whom I may have harmed by my EGO-driven leadership.
9. I will make direct amends to people I may have harmed by my EGO-driven leadership, unless doing so would injure them or others.
10. I will continue to take personal inventory regarding my leadership role; and when I am wrong I will promptly admit it and apologize.
11. By practicing the disciplines of solitude, prayer, and the study of Scriptures, I will seek to practice Servant Leadership as modeled by Jesus.
12. I will carry the message of Leading Like Jesus to other leaders and will practice the Lead Like Jesus principles in all of my relationships.
It seems clear to me that if Erwin McManus wants to place himself in the public eye by participating in such high profile positions as co-host of the "Lead Like Jesus Conference" then he should be willing and prepared to live up to the publicized standards of such a conference.
Has he followed up on the above principles in his own life? What about points number 8, 9 and 10?
As far as I know, Erwin has not yet apologized to Pastor Thomas Wolf or Mr. Sortino for the hurtful words he has published about them.
Getting back to Erwin's theology, there are things that I feel are "not quite right" either.
For example, here are some direct quotes made by Erwin McManus in his podcast message on Ecclesiastes, "New Under the Sun":
Erwin says about Ecclesiastes 1 that it is, "The Scrooge of all passages"
“I don't want you to miss this, when Solomon said there is nothing new under the sun, Solomon was wrong. When I first said this to my wife she said, "You're going to burn." (Laughter can be heard in the background.)
“Solomon was having a bad day.”
Quoting Solomon: "’Meaningless, meaningless, everything is meaningless.’ Erwin says, "Do you believe this?”
Erwin has this to say about Ecclesiastes. 217 , "You should be careful about taking advice from a man who says he hates his life."
Erwin says this about Solomon: "He is more Buddhist than Hebrew or Christian."
This is Erwin commenting on Isaiah 43:19 "See I am doing a new thing." Erwin - "No, no that can't be true. This is one of those moments, its embarrassing, don't I wish God had actually taken time to read the Bible because if you're going to write it you should read it because back there in Ecclesiastes Solomon says there is nothing new under the sun, nothing new under the sun, nothing, nothing, new under the sun, and God now says, ‘See I'm doing a new thing.’ Can't happen God! So who you gonna believe? Solomon on a bad day or God on the day we need Him most?"
[I can't even read the italicized part of the statement above without cringing.]
Commenting on Luke 1:26 Erwin gives the example of the virgin birth as God doing a new thing. Erwin's conclusion is: "If Solomon had been there he would have said, ‘That's new, that's new.’”
I find it hard to believe that a pastor would say such things about a king whom the bible tells us was granted wisdom by God so that he became the wisest man who ever lived.
Sure, Solomon eventually turned his back on God but this was near the end of his life, not during the peak of his reign when he wrote Ecclesiastes. I was taught that when Solomon wrote "There is nothing new under the sun," he meant that to be taken as a metaphor for this "earthly" life, a life lived without God as one's focus. Isn't that the whole message of Ecclesiastes?
It's the "little things" like this that leave me feeling very uneasy about Erwin's theological views and doctrine.
Yvonne W.
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RE: Erwin Raphael McManus | Mosaic - 2/28/2008 3:25:32 PM
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stateofgrace
Posts: 2212
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jacobwdowning
I think the problem here lies with the definition. There is no clear structure to this movement. I have not had any personal conversations with Erwin but I have had one with some of his leadership team. There theology, as you can see at the end of the articile is very orthodox. I can't find anything wrong and after the conversation with the leadership, there core beliefs are very conservative. I have even heard in Erwin's podcast's him preach very clearly against things such as homosexuality, sex before marriage, abortion, and on and on with the issuse that important to most evangelical christians. So I ask this, are there good things about the EC. Should we not look at what they are doing, take the good and throw out the bad. There are many churches who do this but yet still come them selves emerging, maybe meaning trying to reach a younger generation with new ways of evanglism. Is that wrong. The problem is if you say your AOG or SBC there is certain things that go along with that that people excpect as with WOF or any other major denom or movment. With Emerging/Emergent, there is no clear definition we all attain to this. So how can you say that Erwin is not good because he uses the term "emerging angle". Could he simply mean the not judging angle as most people in what they would call modern churches are more willing to cast the first stone then to realize the sin in there own life.
This is kind of a tangent, but Mark Driscoll's latest sermon podcast (02/23/08) describes his (Driscoll's) position regarding the whole emerging/emergent thing.
_____________________________
<-- Moonlight memorial photo. Vampire characters tend to have long lives...unless their television series is on CBS. :(
Blog: CrossCommentary
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RE: Erwin Raphael McManus | Mosaic - 3/7/2008 3:42:19 PM
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YvonneW
Posts: 24
Joined: 2/14/2008
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Here is an interesting link to a promo for the book, "The Church in Emerging Culture: Five Perspectives" in which Erwin McManus is a contributor.
quote:
How does the church adapt to such a culture? Or should it, in fact, eschew adapting for maintaining a course it has followed these last two millennia? Or something in between?
These are exactly the questions asked in The Church In Emerging Culture by five Christian thinker-speaker-writers, each who advocate unique stances regarding what the church’s message should be (and what methods should be used to present it) as it journeys through this evolving, postmodern era. The authors are:
Andy Crouch–Re:Generation Quarterly editor-in-chief Michael Horton–professor and reformed theologian Frederica Mathewes-Green–author, commentator, and Orthodox Christian Brian D. McLaren–postmodernist, author, pastor, and Emergent senior fellow Erwin Raphael McManus–author and pastor of the innovative and interethnic L.A.-based church, Mosaic
Zondervan
Yvonne W.
< Message edited by YvonneW -- 3/7/2008 3:49:05 PM >
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RE: Erwin Raphael McManus | Mosaic - 3/7/2008 9:19:53 PM
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YvonneW
Posts: 24
Joined: 2/14/2008
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Here is a brief bio of Erwin McManus at Book Disciple.com
The bio states:
quote:
He is one of the fathers of what is known as the emerging church movement. He has some radical and controversial attitudes toward Christianity as we have become accustomed to it.
Yvonne W.
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RE: Erwin Raphael McManus | Mosaic - 3/10/2008 11:41:00 PM
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SD456
Posts: 1502
Joined: 8/6/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: YvonneW
SD456,
quote:
ORIGINAL: SD456
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