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RE: Microraptor: We have to admit it, folks - 4/7/2008 8:42:15 AM
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drj11
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PromiseLander
I realize that my response was soaked with a bit of sarcasm, but there's also truth in it. Nope, I didn't read the whole discussion - it's 4 pages, I'm at work, and I don't have a whole lot of time.
My point is, and you can offer any amount of physical proof or disproof you want to, but the Word of God says:
(Genesis 1:20) - Day 5 - Then God said, “Let the waters abound with an abundance of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the face of the firmament of the heavens.”
AND
(Genesis 1:24-25) - Day 6 - Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth the living creature according to its kind: cattle and creeping thing and beast of the earth, each according to its kind”; and it was so. And God made the beast of the earth according to its kind, cattle according to its kind, and everything that creeps on the earth according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.
The Word of God states two VERY important truths in these verses:
#1) Birds were created as a separate living entity BEFORE any "beasts of the earth"
#2) All creatures on earth were created "according to their kind"
Now, you can do one of two things here. You can accept this as the inerrant Word of God, and forget about evolution and dinosaurs to birds theory, OR, you can choose to call God a liar and read into the story things that are not so simply because you observe a few things on earth that you cannot explain. Your choice. Oh, by the way, your eternity depends upon your answer. Have a nice day! 
So either God lies through the Bible, or God lies to us through his creation. You cant hold a literal interpretation of Genesis without assuming God is a liar. This is why Roman Catholics even sometimes consider it heresy to believe the Bible in matters of science, when it conflicts with real science. It's the same as calling God a liar.
Should God have dictated in Genesis a full treatise on Big Bang cosmology, evolution, abiogenesis, quantum mechanics, and so on and so forth? No, He gave us an allegory that tells us all we needed to know. He created the universe, and ourselves. The laws of the universe are just as much the word of God as is the Bible.
< Message edited by drj11 -- 4/7/2008 8:58:42 AM >
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RE: Microraptor: We have to admit it, folks - 4/7/2008 9:15:41 AM
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PromiseLander
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Well, God certainly did not give us all the intricate details of how He went about creating everything that was created: The Bible was never intended to be a science textbook. But when man uses the knowledge he was given and derives theories that are in direct contradiction to the clear teachings of the Bible then the theories MUST be discarded or we call God a liar. Our observations of the physical world can be skewed through man's pre-suppositions.
We can easily see that dinosaurs evovled into birds because there is a fossil of a dinosaur with feathers - a transitional species - ONLY IF we begin with the supposition that the story in Genesis is merely a story, and not the inerrant Word of God. When we strip the evidence of our assumptions, it becomes clear that we are not looking at a transitional species between dinosaurs and birds, because we KNOW that birds were created before any creature of the earth. We also know that things cannot evolve, because we know that everything was created according to it's own kind. We also know that man was created in God's own image. To say that man began as a lower life form is to say that God "began" as a lower life form. It's even heracy to say that God "began."
Maybe you DID come from apes... You ought to know your own kin better than I do. (sarcasm)
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RE: Microraptor: We have to admit it, folks - 4/7/2008 9:31:34 AM
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drj11
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PromiseLander
Well, God certainly did not give us all the intricate details of how He went about creating everything that was created: The Bible was never intended to be a science textbook.
Exactly. That is exactly what it would have to be, if it were the literal truth: a scientific textbook. Big bang, abiogenesis, evolution etc etc.
quote:
But when man uses the knowledge he was given and derives theories that are in direct contradiction to the clear teachings of the Bible then the theories MUST be discarded or we call God a liar. Our observations of the physical world can be skewed through man's pre-suppositions.
Your interpretation of Biblical text can be equally skewed. The amount of Christian denominations that exist and hold different interpretations are quite numerous. That alone shows how the perception can be skewed. Going by majority rules, the literal genesis interpretation is in the minority. You have to allow for the idea, that you chose the wrong interpretation. Fortunately, many scientific ideas enjoy almost universal consensus. That doesn't make the automatically right, but it sure gives them a lot more standing than your literal interpretation.
quote:
We can easily see that dinosaurs evovled into birds because there is a fossil of a dinosaur with feathers - a transitional species - ONLY IF we begin with the supposition that the story in Genesis is merely a story, and not the inerrant Word of God. When we strip the evidence of our assumptions, it becomes clear that we are not looking at a transitional species between dinosaurs and birds, because we KNOW that birds were created before any creature of the earth. We also know that things cannot evolve, because we know that everything was created according to it's own kind. We also know that man was created in God's own image. To say that man began as a lower life form is to say that God "began" as a lower life form. It's even heracy to say that God "began."
Genesis is merely a story and the inerrant word of God, as is nature. Genesis was meant to communicate truths on original sin and the truth that God is the creator. Again, genesis would have to be a scientific treatise if God told us how he literally did it. Big bang, abiogenesis, evolution etc etc. Your also illustrating perfectly why biblical literalists make bad scientists. You dont start with a forgone conclusion and cherry pick facts to support it.. you draw conclusions based on the evidence. You are assuming you have infallibility with the assumption that Genesis is literal truth, and yet assume that God intentionally misleads us through nature. You are seriously underestimating the amount of knowledge and scientific evidence from divergent sources that all discredit literal Genesis.
quote:
Maybe you DID come from apes... You ought to know your own kin better than I do. (sarcasm)
Nice try at a little jab, but you should have some idea as to what evolution claims first. As far as we know, we did not evolve from apes. Apes are our closest living evolutionary relative. We did not evolve from them, and no one says we did.
< Message edited by drj11 -- 4/7/2008 9:41:44 AM >
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RE: Microraptor: We have to admit it, folks - 4/7/2008 10:11:30 AM
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PromiseLander
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DRJ11:
OK, So you're telling me through what you have said is that you do not accept that part of the Bible that says: "And God said..."
It's not "my" interpretation of the Bible, it is "the" interpretation of the Bible - there is only one meaning of what is said in the Scriptures. Many people attempt to impose meaning on it, but its literal teachings, as well as it's parables told to teach a literal truth mean only one thing.
"In the beginning God created..." CAN NOT be made to mean "In the beginning, God used random chance and mutation to develop higher life forms from lower ones through millions of years of death and suffering all before the introduction of sin on the earth." Can't you see the contradiction here?
See, Moses set up a tent for the sole purpose of conversing with the bodily form of God on a daily basis. God cannot lie, and He cannot deceive, therefore it is impossible that Moses would have written anything but the literal, inerrant truth under the personal supervision of God Himself.
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RE: Microraptor: We have to admit it, folks - 4/7/2008 10:21:18 AM
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essentialsaltes
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From: Inglewood, CA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PromiseLander
We can easily see that dinosaurs evovled into birds because there is a fossil of a dinosaur with feathers - a transitional species - ONLY IF we begin with the supposition that the story in Genesis is merely a story, and not the inerrant Word of God. When we strip the evidence of our assumptions, it becomes clear that we are not looking at a transitional species between dinosaurs and birds, because we KNOW that birds were created before any creature of the earth.
This is almost delightfully twisted. Basically, what you're saying is that the evidence points to evolution. The assumption you should be looking at is the assumption that the Genesis account is literally true. When we strip the evidence of THAT assumption, you yourself appear to agree that it demonstrates evolution. Scientists do not start by 'assuming' that Genesis was wrong. That religious text is just not a piece of scientific evidence; it is not considered in any way, positive or negative. The only people making assumptions about the Bible are the anti-evolutionists.
When we strip the evidence of our assumptions... what do you see? What do you see in the evidence?
it becomes clear that we are not looking at a transitional species between dinosaurs and birds, because we KNOW that birds were created before any creature of the earth. The only reason you 'KNOW' that, is because you have assumed it. That's not part of the evidence. You didn't see birds existing before other animals; you yourself recognize that's not what the evidence shows. You're using your assumption to dismiss the evidence. But your assumption doesn't make the evidence go away. It is still there. It is real.
When we strip the evidence of our assumptions... what do you see? We see feathered dinosaurs becoming birds.
_____________________________
"My object in all arguments is not to make any preconceived opinion of mine seem right, but merely to discover and establish the truth, whatever the truth may be."
-- HP Lovecraft, letter to Robert E. Howard 7/27-28/34
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RE: Microraptor: We have to admit it, folks - 4/7/2008 10:31:42 AM
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PromiseLander
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Essentialsaltes:
So you're asking me to think it possible that God is wrong about something?
I don't think Evil Keneivel could have made THAT leap... Even in his younger days...
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RE: Microraptor: We have to admit it, folks - 4/7/2008 11:02:37 AM
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drj11
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PromiseLander
Essentialsaltes:
So you're asking me to think it possible that God is wrong about something?
I don't think Evil Keneivel could have made THAT leap... Even in his younger days...
I cant speak for essentialsaltes, but I would just ask that you consider you are wrong about literalism in genesis. God quite clearly tells us, in many ways, throughout his creation that it is billions of years old. This is where the literalists go wrong. They cant look beyond the differences between God's word in nature, and His word in the Bible, but both most definitely are his word.
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RE: Microraptor: We have to admit it, folks - 4/7/2008 11:24:35 AM
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PromiseLander
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DRJ11:
Well, God's written word is certainly the Testimony for us, and Paul tells us in Romans 1:18-32 of the dangers of attempting to describe the world sans God. (see below) Genesis tells us that there is no room for evolution. If you think that the literal interpretation of the Bible is wrong or lacking somewhat, then I would have to ask you, where do you draw the line between the literal and the figurative?
Romans 1:18-32
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality,[c] wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving,[d] unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.
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RE: Microraptor: We have to admit it, folks - 4/7/2008 12:00:49 PM
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essentialsaltes
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PromiseLander
Essentialsaltes:
So you're asking me to think it possible that God is wrong about something?
No, I'm asking you to consider whether it is possible that your interpretation of a religious text might be faulty. Your interpretation is in conflict with the material evidence. The conflict does not go away when you stand on your interpretation, for the evidence does not go away. But the conflict would go away if you modify your interpretation; harmony would be restored.
Elsewhere, you ask:
where do you draw the line between the literal and the figurative?
I have no answer for you, except to say that making decisions like that can certainly be a struggle. It is not easy.
It is easy to say that every word (except the parables and the metaphors and the...) is 'literally' true, but it is wrong. Easy answers often are.
_____________________________
"My object in all arguments is not to make any preconceived opinion of mine seem right, but merely to discover and establish the truth, whatever the truth may be."
-- HP Lovecraft, letter to Robert E. Howard 7/27-28/34
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RE: Microraptor: We have to admit it, folks - 4/7/2008 1:09:52 PM
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PromiseLander
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Essentialsaltes:
Well, by no means am I claiming that I know everything about what is written in Scripture, but I do take several things into consideration when I read the story of creation in Genesis.
#1) Paul tells us in 2 Timothy 3:16-17 that "16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work." (Now he had the book of Genesis at the time of his writings, and it had been considered 'scripture' for a long time before his time)
#2) There is a creation story in the book of Genesis.
#3) The creation story speaks of spontaneous creation of something from nothing by the divine Word of God.
#4) The Prophets, as well as Jesus (God) Himself reference the Genesis story in their teachings and are spoken of as fact.
Now, since the creation story is scripture, then it is profitable for doctrine as well as being God inspired (God-breathed in some translations - the Hebrew text for this actually gives the idea of God dictating to a scribe who would write down His every word.) If evolution had been a part of creation, there is really no reason why God would have left us in the dark about it. Since there is no mention of it and those ideas are actually in stark contrast to the words of Scripture, and there is no mention of it throughout the entire Bible which was written over a period of about 1600 years, we must look at it as false. Now, the Bible isn't going to explain all of the scientific details about life here in this universe, but science must not contradict the teachings found in it. Scripture is by it's very nature, being breathed by God, is infallible. If our conclusions seem to be antagonistic to God's Word, it's not God's Word that is wrong, it is our conclusions.
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RE: Microraptor: We have to admit it, folks - 4/7/2008 1:44:55 PM
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drmark
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quote:
Your choice. Oh, by the way, your eternity depends upon your answer. Would you be willing, PromiseLander, to share with us a Scripture passage that directly links the belief that birds were created the day before dinosaurs with one's salvation?
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Microraptor: We have to admit it, folks - 4/7/2008 1:56:57 PM
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PromiseLander
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DRMark:
If you don't take God's Word as infallible, then you slander God's character by making Him out to be a liar. If you make God out to be a liar and still believe in him, then you are not believing in the God of the Bible. That's where I was going with that statement.
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RE: Microraptor: We have to admit it, folks - 4/7/2008 3:02:08 PM
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drmark
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Okay, let's try it that way, PL. Where does it say in God's infallible Word that one must believe in infallibilty in order to believe in Him?
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Microraptor: We have to admit it, folks - 4/7/2008 3:17:14 PM
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PromiseLander
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Drmark:
Sure... I'll answer your question with a question...
Does the God you worship make mistakes? Does he sin? If so, then his word is also fallible.
Conversely, if God does not make mistakes, and if He does not sin, then His Word to us is flawless. If you follow a god that gives faulty words to his people, then you are not believing in the God of the Bible, and you are on the broad way to hell.
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RE: Microraptor: We have to admit it, folks - 4/7/2008 3:21:43 PM
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PromiseLander
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From my church's doctrinal statement...
"We believe that the Holy Bible is closed and is the special written revelation of God to man. It has dual authorship of the Holy Spirit who moved holy men of God to write the very words of God (1 Corinthians 2:7-14; 2 Peter 1:20-21). The Bible in the original documents penned in Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek is inspired (2 Timothy 3:16), infallible (Isaiah 55:11; Matthew 5:18; 24:35; John 10:35; Romans 1:16-17; 1 Thessalonians 2:13; Hebrews 4:12), and inerrant (Proverbs 30:5-6; John 17:17). The Holy Bible, made up of 66 books, is our final authority and only rule of faith and practice (Sola Scriptura) as we interpret it under the literal, grammatical-historical method."
" We believe that there is one God (Deuteronomy 6:4; Isaiah 45:5-7) who is Sovereign over all (Psalm 33; 1 Timothy 6:15), creating all things in six literal days with each day consisting of 24 hours (Genesis 1-2; Job 33:4; Isaiah 40:28; l Colossians 1:16), infinitely perfect (Isaiah 6:3; Matthew 5:48; Revelation 4:8) and eternally existing in three distinct persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit (Psalm 90:2; Isaiah 48:16; Matthew 3:16-17; 28:19; 2 Corinthians 13:14). God knows all things past, present and future. He knows all things which are possible and actual (Jeremiah 37:6-10; Matthew 11:21-24). He is at all places at all times, knowing all things continually (Psalm 139:7-10; Hebrews 4:13). He accomplishes all that He has decreed and none of His plans will be thwarted (Isaiah 46:9-10; Ephesians 1:11). He is worthy of all praise and does all things for His glory (Psalm 106:8; Isaiah 48:11; Romans 11:36; Ephesians 1:14) and we are to do all things to His glory (1 Corinthians 6:20; 10:31; Ephesians 3:21) (Soli Deo Gloria)."
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RE: Microraptor: We have to admit it, folks - 4/7/2008 3:48:39 PM
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drmark
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Wow, I really like your church's doctrinal statement on the Bible, much better than my own denomination's:
quote:
4. We believe in the plenary inspiration of the Holy Scriptures, by which we understand the 66 books of the Old and New Testaments, given by divine inspiration, inerrantly revealing the will of God concerning us in all things necessary to our salvation, so that whatever is not contained therein is not to be enjoined as an article of faith.
(Luke 24:44-47; John 10:35; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4; 2 Timothy 3:15-17; 1 Peter 1:10-12; 2 Peter 1:20-21) In fact, there are science professors at some of our colleges who use our statement to rationalize zillions of years of evolution since it is not "necessary to our salvation" to believe in a six-day creation. Needless to say, I heartily disagree with this misuse of Scriptural purpose since I personally see several essential doctrines relevant to salvation presented clearly in Genesis 1-11.
However, PL, you still haven't come up with a biblical basis for personal salvation based on grammatical-historical exegesis. This may be your last chance on this thread as we are straying far from topic.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Microraptor: We have to admit it, folks - 4/7/2008 3:52:19 PM
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PromiseLander
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Drmark:
The whole idea is that if you're not believing in the God of the Bible, you're not saved... What I listed are descriptions about that God and His nature...
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RE: Microraptor: We have to admit it, folks - 4/7/2008 3:53:35 PM
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PromiseLander
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(Not to say that ONLY a belief in that God will save you, because it won't. Even the demons believe in God. Jesus said: "Deny yourself, take up your cross, and follow me." That is what saves)
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RE: Microraptor: We have to admit it, folks - 4/7/2008 4:02:27 PM
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drmark
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quote:
Now, you can do one of two things here. You can accept this as the inerrant Word of God, and forget about evolution and dinosaurs to birds theory, OR, you can choose to call God a liar and read into the story things that are not so simply because you observe a few things on earth that you cannot explain. Your choice. Oh, by the way, your eternity depends upon your answer. Have a nice day! Well, I think your responses have made it quite clear that "one's eternity depends upon one's answer" to the question of six-day creation is not Scripturally-based soteriology. Thanks for your time, PL, and have a nice day. 
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Microraptor: We have to admit it, folks - 4/7/2008 4:13:50 PM
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PromiseLander
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Drmark:
OK, I'll attempt to spell it out...
#1) Salvation is dependant on 3 things ONLY. Deny yourself - HATE that sinful part of yourself, Take up your cross - willingly make those sacrifices necessary to remove the practice of sin in your life, Follow Jesus - live a life following Jesus - His example, His Word, His teachings, ect...
#2) That Jesus that you must believe in is perfect as defined in Scripture.
#3) A perfect entity cannot by nature be sinful or make mistakes.
#4) That perfect entity can not mislead people by breathing scripture to us that is incorrect.
#5) The story of creation was breathed by God to Moses.
#6) The creation story is perfect as God is perfect.
#7) Someone who does not believe in a 6-day creation doubts the infallibility of God and His Word because they believe that the beginnings occured in a way antagonistic to His Word.
#8) If you believe in a begginings story other than the 6-day creation, then you are saying that God lied to us.
#9) If God lied to us, then God is not God.
#10) If you believe in a God that can lie, then you are NOT saved.
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RE: Microraptor: We have to admit it, folks - 4/21/2008 1:23:33 PM
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Raptorman
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My gosh, Agahnim, I am so sorry I have taken this long to reply!  I hate being such a procrastinator. Please forgive me. I'm not trying to ignore you. I've been busy and lazy at the same time, is all.
Though I undoubtedly wish I could read all the previous posts in detail (procrastination, again), I think it will have to wait for about a week or so. School is going to be hectic until the start of May for me, but I will be able to focus as much attention as before after finals week.
From what I have seen in your responses so far, Aganihm, you do make a lot of good points. You're right, I guess it would seem a little deceptive of God to create birds and little theropods as distinct creatures with so many characteristics in common. That's what has me scratching my head at the moment.
As for God having such a limited imagination: that would apply, if the animal kingdom taken as a collective whole was not so diverse, from koalas to jellyfish, and from snakes to giant squid. If animals - or the many domains of life itself, like fungi, plants, etc. - all looked alike, I may accuse God of having a rather limited imagination. But it seems more prudent to get a proper context by looking at life in all its forms and domains on this planet (or, possibly, on other planets, as well), and not just at two kinds of vertebrates (dinosaurs and birds) which share so many characteristics just by being land-dwelling vertebrates. Granted, the lines seem particularly blurry between this specific pair ("the odd couple," you might call them ), and that's why I am having this exchange with you. I really want to learn this. If we don't get to the bottom of it, I guess you and I could go together before God when we're in heaven and get the matter straightened out right then and there. God would be in a position to know, after all.
One thing God has taught me through his beautiful creation is that He surprises us, partly to remind us that He's running the show, and mankind is a collection of privileged participants. We had the audacity to think that life needs narrow parameters to survive, and He knocks us over with the discovery of water bears (microscopic animals that are experts for survival in almost any possible environment - they make cockroaches look like a piece of bone china being used for target practice). We thought that the deepest oceans must have been black and crushing deserts, an aquatic Hell that nothing alive might possibly inhabit. Then we discovered a whole new world, filled with life in even the deepest trenches and canyons that most of us have never seen. For all I know, if the YEC model is indeed the correct interpretation of Genesis, "birds" may just be a subset of specialized small theropods that, due to our limited knowledge, have been arbitrarily grouped into a class totally apart from dinosaurs, when in reality they would have been the last surviving examples of that class. So birds would, in this scenario, be real dinosaurs, but in an unexpected way. It's a wild guess for sure, and probably is yet another one of my odd intellectual exercises. But then again, I come up with stranger ideas all the time. And again, God has given bigger surprises to mankind as we peer deeper and deeper into the puzzle that is biological life.
So sorry to leave you hanging, Agahnim. I'll be happy to continue this debate soon enough. I look forward to hearing from you again, and I will address some of the other posters at that time, as well.
Sincerely and respectfully yours,
Raptorman
_____________________________
"Satan himself trembles when the weakest saint is on his knees."
-Unknown
"All you have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to you."
-Gandalf, "Lord of the Rings"
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RE: Microraptor: We have to admit it, folks - 4/21/2008 11:06:42 PM
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Agahnim
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I’m glad you haven’t abandoned this thread—I was kind of worried that you might have.
quote:
If we don't get to the bottom of it, I guess you and I could go together before God when we're in heaven and get the matter straightened out right then and there. God would be in a position to know, after all.
I hope you aren’t overly disappointed to hear this, but I’m not sure you should be so confident that you’ll be seeing me in heaven. Although I believe in God, I’m not a Christian, and I know what the Bible has to say about whether a person can go to heaven if they don’t believe Jesus is the son of God. On the other hand, I was a Christian until I was 19 years old—I accepted Jesus as my savior when I was 7—so based on what John 10:28 says, maybe I’m still saved, even though I no longer believe in him.
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For all I know, if the YEC model is indeed the correct interpretation of Genesis, "birds" may just be a subset of specialized small theropods that, due to our limited knowledge, have been arbitrarily grouped into a class totally apart from dinosaurs, when in reality they would have been the last surviving examples of that class. So birds would, in this scenario, be real dinosaurs, but in an unexpected way.
While that’s an interesting idea, I’m not sure how that could fit with a literal interpretation of Genesis. According to Genesis 1, birds were created on day 5, and land animals (presumably including dinosaurs) were created on day 6. God creating birds as a subset of dinosaurs would be a possibility if this part of Genesis isn’t literally true, but YEC is usually based on the assumption that it is. Are you suggesting that maybe the YEC model is true even though Genesis 1 isn’t literal, or do you think there’s a way for it to be literally true even if birds are a subset of dinosaurs?
I look forward to hearing from you again, whenever you have time to resume participating here.
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"I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." --Mahatma Gandhi
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RE: Microraptor: We have to admit it, folks - 4/22/2008 12:12:24 PM
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drmark
Posts: 3170
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
I hope you aren’t overly disappointed to hear this, but I’m not sure you should be so confident that you’ll be seeing me in heaven. Well, that's an interesting comment. Shouldn't someone who was a Christian for 12 years be the one "overly disappointed" about not making it to Heaven instead of somebody he doesn't even know except through an electronic discussion of raptor paleontology?
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Microraptor: We have to admit it, folks - 4/23/2008 1:27:11 AM
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Agahnim
Posts: 205
Joined: 2/27/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
Well, that's an interesting comment. Shouldn't someone who was a Christian for 12 years be the one "overly disappointed" about not making it to Heaven instead of somebody he doesn't even know except through an electronic discussion of raptor paleontology?
If I still believed heaven was the way Christians claim it to be, then yes, I’d be disappointed. But part of not being a Christian anymore is that I no longer think of heaven as a sort of “private club” where only members of one religion can get in. I can explain my current views on the afterlife if you really want me to, but it might be kind of off-topic here.
In any case, my comment was just about how I expect this would look from Raptorman’s point of view, since I know most Christians believe that they’re the only people who go to heaven and that everyone else goes to hell. I wasn’t saying that I still believe this myself.
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"I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." --Mahatma Gandhi
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RE: Microraptor: We have to admit it, folks - 4/23/2008 11:27:16 AM
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drmark
Posts: 3170
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
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Oh, I see, so you postulate there's a Heaven for good Christians and there's a heaven for members of other less exclusive religions. This makes about as much sense as your views on evolution, Agahnim! Thanks for the consistency.
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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