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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 9/22/2008 2:25:38 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 2404
Joined: 8/10/2005
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quote:
my daughter has shown more interest in the Scriptures and living a moral life since she has been seeing this young man than she ever has with her other "christian" boy friends.
I am not sure what you meant by "christian" in quotes dear Blue? People who self identify their religion as such while being somewhat religious unbelievers and not trying to act christ-like?
So you saying dating those didn’t improve her morality, unlike dating the current unbeliever that does? Well, of course, I agree it is better to date a moral unbeliever then an immoral one.
Especially it is nice that he shows signs of interest in becoming a believer.
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Also, he is receptive to the claims of Yeshua. In fact, he has observed Pesach Seder with us last time and had no problems with our use of Yeshua's hagadah.
For that is like thinking a person is interested in Jesus Christ based on the fact he attended a friend's Catholic wedding. So I hope there are other indicators of his interest  .
Any adult Jewish boy have participated in enough P. Seders to be immune to innovations, personal variations and flavors of P Seder and generic "show-off-my-devotion-see,everybody? " junk associated with.
There are more hagadah versions then there are observant Jews. I personally written one when I was 15 even.
Queer Eye, kid’s version, women’s, AA members friendly or Teletubbies themed hagadah– accepting the preferenced of the people that invited you is considered being polite. So I respect that. If he is possibly your future SIL , you blessed with the well mannered one. Rabbinical Talmudism I generally despise, but take it all with straight face and smile. Even though substituting Chicken for Lamb has to go ! One of the Silliest rabbinical traditions, and I ve seen a lot. Messiah is not a chicken no turkey….
But after the fourth cup is drunk everybody is pretty much in a condition not to worry about stuff.
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 9/22/2008 2:46:30 PM
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bob97
Posts: 1972
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
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quote:
augmentative
Hey...I do the best I can with what I have to work with and that's not much. 
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 9/22/2008 3:05:01 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3614
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
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LOL.
In music, the last note in a chord is a bit "sharp."
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 9/22/2008 7:38:58 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 1536
Joined: 11/8/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Let's be clear here. It appears that you are saying that anyone who did not keep Shabbat perfectly as you understand it should be kept, before the sacrifice of Yeshua, was not saved? Is this your view?
Not categorically. But it definately showed their failure at being declared righteous by the law. What happened after this realization is what ultimately determined if they were saved or not.
I disagree. It may have been an indication of whether or not they were saved. However, if salvation is by grace through faith, only Adonai knows for sure what their state was at the time of their death, just as no one, exept Adonai, can determine for sure who specifically will ultimately recieve the gift of eternal life today.
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Let's see if I get this straight. We agree salvation is by grace through faith. You assert the Adonai commanded the Isrealites to keep Shabbat, knowing it could not be done.
Yes. The law was given to prove your unrighteousness, not establish it (though if you did keep the law you'd be revealed as being a righteous person not needing to be 'saved' from anything).
Again the spongee introduction of terms without clear definition. What do you see as the difference between "prove" and "establish".
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...Therefore, no Israelite who died before Yeshua's sacrifice was saved. Is that what you are saying?
No. What I'm saying is no Israelite who died before Jesus's sacrifice was declared righteous or saved by the law, even though God commanded his people to seek justification that way which was theoretically possible for a perfect person. He did that so that we'd all see the stark reality that no one is justified by the law.
I disagree. I do not think, Adonai has ever asked anyone to seek salvation through the keeping of Ha Torah. It appears to me, keeping Ha Torah was a response to being saved. The fact that some attempted to keep Ha Torah as a means of salvation, does not mean that is what Adonai intended.
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Yet, you denigh salvation to those whos faith, as you define it, is greater than yours.
Not quite. I deny salvation to any Israelite who was unfaithful to any part of the law, and who also rejected God's provision for forgiveness in the law. Or who rejected God's forgiveness apart from the law, when and where (and if) that was offered.
So, there are three options here. I am confused as to which you are supporting.
1. Salvation by faithfullness to Ha Torah, which you appear to reject.
2. Salvation by faithfullness to Ha Torah and Adonai's grace.
3. Salvation by faithfullness to Adonai's grace alone.
Which of these three applies to the people in the time of the Tanach(OT)?
quote:
The marriage that we once had was to the flesh, not the Lord.
The analogy that is repeated over and over again in the Tanach(OT) is that of being married to Adonai. Hosea is a good example of that.
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And because we were married to the flesh, we were bound to the written code (the law) that governed that relationship (remember, law is for the unrighteous).
We did not abide by the marrage contract, but played the harlot with idols. One of those Idols was the written Torah and the rabbinic interpretations thereof. As Adonai tells us through Jeremiah, (Jer 3:8) "I gave faithless Israel her certificate of divorce and sent her away because of all her adulteries. Yet I saw that her unfaithful sister Judah had no fear; she also went out and committed adultery."
We thus considered ourselves as married to these Idols. As Adonai tells us through Isaiah, (Isa 54:6) The Lord will call you back as if you were a wife deserted and distressed in spirit-- a wife who married young, only to be rejected," says your God.
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But now that our first partner the flesh has died, we have been released from the law that insisted, even required that we stay married to the flesh, just as the law of marriage 'keeps' a man married to his spouse. That's just how it is with law. It stimulates and strengthens our marriage to sin.
So, this apparent marrage to the written Torah, which is really no marrage at all, is what I believe Paul is refering to in his analogy to "men who know the law". Now, those who were married to this misuse of Ha Torah have died to this marrage so that they might return to their true husband in Yeshua Ha Meshiach.
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But now that that our first spouse the flesh has died we are now free from the law that kept us married to the flesh and can legitimately marry ourselves to Christ (until you end your relationship with the flesh legitimately by death you can not be married to Christ). And this marriage to Christ is governed by the Spirit, not the written code. Now obviously my new spouse looks different than my old one.
As stated above, now that we are dead to the flesh to which we thought ourselves bound, we are free to return to Adonai, our true husband in the form of Yeshua. We are now free to have living relationship which abides by the marrage contract, avoiding sinfull passons, without constantly having to add extra legal clauses to cover every situations. For we truly belong to our Husband who gave His life for us.
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So what does all that mean to this discussion? The point I made was, "we can in fact be released from the things that the law, the taskmaster, made us do but which we are now set free from to do. Things that actually look like they are in direct contradiction to the taskmaster's original instructions!."
Even though Paul is talking about us no longer having to do the sin that being under the law provoked me do (because of my marriage to the flesh), it is also true that my new marriage to Christ, and the end of my marriage to the flesh, releases me from the bondage of the law concerning things like animal sacrifice for sin. I am no longer bound by that law because a death has occured that releases me from the authority of the law that governed that old relationship. By all outward appearances, my disobedience to that law is in fact not disobedience at all because a death has occurred! I have legitimately been released (through a death) from it's literal authority over me. Ditto for the other 'letter of the law' requirements that governed us while we were married to the sin nature.
If we are free from the marrage contract as you define it, why do we retain certain clauses of that contract and not others? Also, if we retain certain clauses, are we not again focusing on the law and not the spirit of the marrage?
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Then just answer this one question for me. Was the law of animal sacrifice for sin just as binding and unchanged at the time of the writing of the letter to the Hebrews as when God first gave it?
As I have stated before, the sacrifices never forgave sin, but were reminders of the promise the Adonai would forgive our sins. In this way, salvation by grace through faith was exemplified by the sacrifices in the time of the writing of Hebrews as they were in the time of Moshe(Moses).
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I'm glad you made this clear. If no one can keep Ha Torah,as you stated earlier and "anyone who didn't keep the law in the OT was damned", then everyone before the appearance of Yeshua in the flesh was damned. So, much for chapter 11 of Hebrews.
Yeah, if you stop right there where the law condemns everyone. Everybody in Hebrews 11 was condemned under the law. Hebrews 11 is about what these people had above and beyond any obedience to the law.
But you have repeatedly said that salvation by grace through faith was beyond the understanding of those in the times of the Tanach(OT). Therefore, in this context, I do not understand how "anyone who didn't keep the law in the OT was damned" could not be anything but salvation by works.
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
If "Christ fulfilled the ceremonial requirements for me in his work on the cross" as you define fulfill, then why would Paul tell you to keep them? If you are comparing yourself to the Isrealites, then are you saying anyone who does not get baptised or take communion is damned? That's what you just said regarding them.
Blue, this is all about the OT laws of worship. Paul doesn't tell me to keep the OT ceremonial laws. But I am told to observe the two NT ceremonies of baptism and communion/Passover, neither of which is presented as 'law' with associated penalties for not observing them. These two things truly do have the quality of being 'not requried but meaningful, even beneficial' that you claim the OT worship laws have.
What is it about these "ceremonial laws" that makes them 'not requried but meaningful, even beneficial' that is different from the others apart from your belief that Paul affirms them and rejects the others?
quote:
But the two NT ones...those are the one's you reject. Go figure.
On the contrary, I believe we should perform mikvah(baptism) as Yeshua directed His disciples and keep Pesach according to Yeshua's seder. It is you who believe it is burdensome to do them as Yeshua showed that they should be done. Go figure.
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 9/22/2008 7:57:39 PM >
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 9/23/2008 9:24:58 AM
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mcleod
Posts: 1076
Joined: 4/4/2006
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quote:
So, there are three options here. I am confused as to which you are supporting.
1. Salvation by faithfullness to Ha Torah, which you appear to reject.
2. Salvation by faithfullness to Ha Torah and Adonai's grace.
3. Salvation by faithfullness to Adonai's grace alone.
Which of these three applies to the people in the time of the Tanach(OT)?
Can I answer this canI! canI?
Number three is the answer according to Paul's teaching. Also let us not get confused in these matters of God has not change his way of thinking. He has all the time consider that it is a faith issue salvation with him. Realise if you may that in the garden Adam and Eve disobeyed him. By not believing his word, when he said that when you eat of the tree of knowledge then you will surely die. Eve would rather believe in satan's thought process than in her maker's. Man on the other hand would prefer to listen to his wife's then his maker's.
So when it came along for Noah he could have said "I don't believe you are going to flood the world" and not build a boat. Yet again putting faith in what God told him he made a boat to safe the animals and his family from the flood. These stories go on and on in the old testament about people using what God told them and acting on it.
When it comes to a sacrific, it was a peace offering to him. For the life or soul of the animal or even for us it is in the blood. When they would sacrific a animal on a burnt offering it was a aroma to God for their sins. This why the requirements of a perfect sheep without blemish was to be offered for their sins. Were they to put faith in that ? Yes they were to because God said that he would cleanse them from their sins if they would do those things. That is why the Son told the Father that he would become the sacrific that he required for our sins and even to those who lived before him. Remember also that there is no such thing as time where God is.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 9/23/2008 12:55:37 PM
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mcleod
Posts: 1076
Joined: 4/4/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy
quote:
ORIGINAL: mcleod
quote:
So, there are three options here. I am confused as to which you are supporting.
1. Salvation by faithfullness to Ha Torah, which you appear to reject.
2. Salvation by faithfullness to Ha Torah and Adonai's grace.
3. Salvation by faithfullness to Adonai's grace alone.
Which of these three applies to the people in the time of the Tanach(OT)?
Can I answer this canI! canI?
Number three is the answer according to Paul's teaching.
Greetings,
Mc... I Believe they are all the same
Just replace Ha Torah with "The word"
LG
Sorry but I can't do that for even Bluethread would agree with me on that the word Torah. Means law and not word as you would think.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 9/23/2008 6:48:47 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 1536
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mcleod
Sorry but I can't do that for even Bluethread would agree with me on that the word Torah. Means law and not word as you would think.
Do I hear my name taken in vain? On the contrary, I do agree with LoyalGypsy in principle. I believe Ha Torah is what John was talking about when he wrote his account of Yeshua's life. However, the written Torah is an incomplete representation of The Word of Adonai. The question I was asking Spongee was regarding the written Torah and grace.
Regarding your analysis I believe you had it right until you got to the sacrifices. In my opinion, there is no reason to change the principle of our actions being an outgrowth of grace rather than that which imparts grace.
Noah was not saved because He built the ark, for Adonai could have used any number of other means to save him. On the contrary, because he found grace in the eyes of Adonai, he then built the Ark as he was instructed and recieved the blessings of the Ark.
The sacrifices are the same. Those who were saved of Israel were not saved by the sacrifices. On the contrary, because they believed Adonai's promise of salvation they performed the sacrifices as Adonai directed them to. As Paul tells us had they been saved by the sacrifices, then those sacrifices would not need to be repeated year after year. They were repeated year after year because they were illustrations of The Sacrifice that Adonai had promised.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 9/23/2008 8:45:08 PM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2458
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mcleod
quote:
ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy
quote:
ORIGINAL: mcleod
quote:
So, there are three options here. I am confused as to which you are supporting.
1. Salvation by faithfullness to Ha Torah, which you appear to reject.
2. Salvation by faithfullness to Ha Torah and Adonai's grace.
3. Salvation by faithfullness to Adonai's grace alone.
Which of these three applies to the people in the time of the Tanach(OT)?
Can I answer this canI! canI?
Number three is the answer according to Paul's teaching.
Greetings,
Mc... I Believe they are all the same
Just replace Ha Torah with "The word"
LG
Sorry but I can't do that for even Bluethread would agree with me on that the word Torah. Means law and not word as you would think.
Greetings
quote:
Sorry but I can't do that for even Bluethread would agree with me on that the word Torah. Means law and not word as you would think. I think Blue thread may grasp what I am speaking of…in a bit
But…what actually started off my thinking process was found in PS 119 verse 72 The law of Your mouth is better to me Than thousands of coins of gold and silver.
the “law of Your mouth” used in this context in Ps 119:72, which is reflected and verified in the rest of the passage is conviction; and if I am wrong then please correct me.
I was also thinking that there are books (plural) of the law that are called the Torah ....and in those 5 books there is also 1 word reiterated throughout…. called “the law of God” which Jesus said that burden was light and the yoke was easy.
So I began wondering….
… (As Paul sums it up in Gal 5 that “all the law”… is fulfilled in 1 word which is Love)
Is the “law of your God”… as it is mentioned in Ho 4:6...….the same “law” Paul was speaking of that was summed up in one word as Love?
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the “”knowledge””” of sin.
Ok so if the knowledge of sin comes by the law which is summed up as the 72 The law of Your mouth in Ps119 which brings forth conviction…. then I was looking at Hebrews 12:6 here… and it seems to be the same word defining chastening as Love and chastening or conviction comes by the the law… which is the “”knowledge””” of sin.
Hebrews 12:4-17
4 You have not yet resisted to bloodshed, striving against sin. 5 And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons: "My son, do not despise the chastening of the Lord, Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him; 6 For whom the Lord loves He chastens, And scourges every son whom He receives." 7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten?
quote:
Sorry but I can't do that for even Bluethread would agree with me on that the word Torah. Means law and not word as you would think.
Now we have in John 1 saying… “The word became flesh” and lived among us,
Well ….if Jesus is said to be the Love of God and the Love of God chastens or convicts by the knowledge of sin…. then why is in correct to say that the Ha Torah is the word or the Love (law) of God that became flesh?
It’s all synonymous
LG
< Message edited by LoyalGypsy -- 9/24/2008 11:19:02 AM >
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 9/24/2008 11:01:56 AM
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mcleod
Posts: 1076
Joined: 4/4/2006
Status: offline
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So you are playing with words now. Someone wrote to me and told me tha I need to check my grammer.Which sometimes, oh well most of the time I don't make sense.
But back to the subject, The passage is talking about laws which came out of God's mouth and Moses repeated them back to the children of Israel. Yes it was there to convict the children of Israel of their faults. You know as the story goes on you will read(Num. 16) that certian party of men came to Moses and Aaron. Told Moses these words; " You have gone to far! The whole community is HOLY, everyone of them, and the Lord is with them. Why then do you set yourselves above the Lord's assembly.
Notice in their mind they thought were holy. Not very humbled congregation if I may say. Yet they were just given the laws of God to them. So is it to tell you were you fall short yes, but as the writer wrote in the previous writing in the Psalm 119 it all so about; Blessed is the person who ways are blameless, who walk according to the law of the Lord. Blessed are they who keep his statutes and seek him with all of their heart.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 9/24/2008 11:44:13 AM
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bob97
Posts: 1972
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline
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quote:
So you are playing with words now. Someone wrote to me and told me tha I need to check my grammer.Which sometimes, oh well most of the time I don't make sense.
At least they care enough to try to help you mcleod…I guess they have just given up on me and my grammar and spelling…it is rather hopeless.
I just use the excuse…God made me the way I am. Just goes to prove...God does enjoy some comedy.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 9/25/2008 8:47:35 AM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 979
Joined: 12/9/2006
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:
ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Let's be clear here. It appears that you are saying that anyone who did not keep Shabbat perfectly as you understand it should be kept, before the sacrifice of Yeshua, was not saved? Is this your view?
Not categorically. But it definately showed their failure at being declared righteous by the law. What happened after this realization is what ultimately determined if they were saved or not.
I disagree. It may have been an indication of whether or not they were saved. However, if salvation is by grace through faith, only Adonai knows for sure what their state was at the time of their death, just as no one, exept Adonai, can determine for sure who specifically will ultimately recieve the gift of eternal life today.
You're missing what I mean. Not keeping Sabbath perfectly before Christ proved a person had no righteousness of their own. Lack of righteousness effectively condemns a person before God. It's what happens from this point on that determines if they will be ultimately saved. This person needs the righteousness that comes by faith.
Everybody is born unrighteous. The law can't reveal our righteousness because we don't have any righteousness to be revealed. Nor can the law make us righteous, because of our slavery to the sin nature. The law is powerless to 'justify' a person in both senses of the word.
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Let's see if I get this straight. We agree salvation is by grace through faith. You assert the Adonai commanded the Isrealites to keep Shabbat, knowing it could not be done.
Yes. The law was given to prove your unrighteousness, not establish it (though if you did keep the law you'd be revealed as being a righteous person not needing to be 'saved' from anything).
Again the spongee introduction of terms without clear definition. What do you see as the difference between "prove" and "establish".
prove--show someone to be a righteous person.
establish--make someone to be a righteous person.
These represent the two meanings of 'justify'. The law can not justify a person. It can not reveal your righteousness (for none of us are born righteous). Nor can the law establish you as righteous (because no one can keep all of the law). With this being painfully true we have no choice but to accept God's free gift of righteousness through faith (as opposed to the righteousness that comes through works of the law).
One might say then that if law keeping reveals a person's righteousness then a person would then keep the law after receiving the righteousness that comes by faith. Not so fast...the scriptures are clear on this; the person who wants to show themselves righteous through the law must keep the whole law. OUCH! I'll stick with justification through faith...a faith that finds expression in how I treat other people, not a faith that finds expression in keeping the letter of the law. This is all right out of the Bible.
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...Therefore, no Israelite who died before Yeshua's sacrifice was saved. Is that what you are saying?
No. What I'm saying is no Israelite who died before Jesus's sacrifice was declared righteous or saved by the law, even though God commanded his people to seek justification that way which was theoretically possible for a perfect person. He did that so that we'd all see the stark reality that no one is justified by the law.
I disagree. I do not think, Adonai has ever asked anyone to seek salvation through the keeping of Ha Torah. It appears to me, keeping Ha Torah was a response to being saved.
For that given time in history, literal law keeping would have been the expected response to a saving faith; a faith that came later, if at all, after realizing one was condemned by the law (for none are righteous), not declared righteous by it.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...The fact that some attempted to keep Ha Torah as a means of salvation, does not mean that is what Adonai intended.
He intended to illustrate to the world that it's impossible to be declared righteous by the law. The only way that could happen is to be told that the law would be their righteousness. The very thing God told the Israelites through Moses. You know this.
"24 The LORD commanded us to obey all these decrees and to fear the LORD our God, so that we might always prosper and be kept alive, as is the case today. 25 And if we are careful to obey all this law before the LORD our God, as he has commanded us, that will be our righteousness." (Deut. 6:24-25)
You can look at it both ways. The keeping of the law was to be either the evidence of their righteousness, or establsih it where there was none (which is impossible for fallen man enslaved by sin).
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Yet, you denigh salvation to those whos faith, as you define it, is greater than yours.
Not quite. I deny salvation to any Israelite who was unfaithful to any part of the law, and who also rejected God's provision for forgiveness in the law. Or who rejected God's forgiveness apart from the law, when and where (and if) that was offered.
So, there are three options here. I am confused as to which you are supporting.
1. Salvation by faithfullness to Ha Torah, which you appear to reject.
2. Salvation by faithfullness to Ha Torah and Adonai's grace.
3. Salvation by faithfullness to Adonai's grace alone.
Which of these three applies to the people in the time of the Tanach(OT)?
I definately reject #1. We now know clearly that no one is justified by the law. #2 is how an Israelite justified himself, and how he was justified by God (respectively). And of course, we all now know what a few select people discovered during the time of the law--that salvation is by faith through grace, and that it's impossible to be saved by your works.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:
The marriage that we once had was to the flesh, not the Lord.
The analogy that is repeated over and over again in the Tanach(OT) is that of being married to Adonai. Hosea is a good example of that.
quote:
And because we were married to the flesh, we were bound to the written code (the law) that governed that relationship (remember, law is for the unrighteous).
We did not abide by the marrage contract, but played the harlot with idols. One of those Idols was the written Torah and the rabbinic interpretations thereof. As Adonai tells us through Jeremiah, (Jer 3:8) "I gave faithless Israel her certificate of divorce and sent her away because of all her adulteries. Yet I saw that her unfaithful sister Judah had no fear; she also went out and committed adultery."
We thus considered ourselves as married to these Idols. As Adonai tells us through Isaiah, (Isa 54:6) The Lord will call you back as if you were a wife deserted and distressed in spirit-- a wife who married young, only to be rejected," says your God.
The Israelites were married to God like Mary was to Joseph, and much like we are married to God today, except we have a better promise. The Israelites had entered into a promise with God to remain undefiled but became promiscous and broke the pledge they had made to God. And as a result, God divorced them, just as Joseph set out to quietly divorce Mary when he thought she had been unfaithful to her promise to reserve and set apart herself for him alone.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:
But now that our first partner the flesh has died, we have been released from the law that insisted, even required that we stay married to the flesh, just as the law of marriage 'keeps' a man married to his spouse. That's just how it is with law. It stimulates and strengthens our marriage to sin.
So, this apparent marrage to the written Torah, which is really no marrage at all, is what I believe Paul is refering to in his analogy to "men who know the law". Now, those who were married to this misuse of Ha Torah have died to this marrage so that they might return to their true husband in Yeshua Ha Meshiach.
No, Paul is saying to the church at Rome, "you guys know what the law says. A woman is only bound to her husband and required to keep the law of marriage as long as he lives." Read it in the NASB version (a very literal translation):
"1Or do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives?
2For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband. (Romans 7:1-2 NASB)
If you want, we can go verse by verse through this passage and test each other's opinions about it.
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
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But now that that our first spouse the flesh has died we are now free from the law that kept us married to the flesh and can legitimately marry ourselves to Christ (until you end your relationship with the flesh legitimately by death you can not be married to Christ). And this marriage to Christ is governed by the Spirit, not the written code. Now obviously my new spouse looks different than my old one.
As stated above, now that we are dead to the flesh to which we thought ourselves bound, we are free to return to Adonai, our true husband in the form of Yeshua. We are now free to have living relationship which abides by the marrage contract, avoiding sinfull passons, without constantly having to add extra legal clauses to cover every situations. For we truly belong to our Husband who gave His life for us.
We 'thought' we were bound to the flesh? The OT and NT both say we are slaves of the flesh (aka sin nature) right out of the womb. The law actually insures that continued slavery, just like the law of marriage binds a man to a woman for life.
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
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So what does all that mean to this discussion? The point I made was, "we can in fact be released from the things that the law, the taskmaster, made us do but which we are now set free from to do. Things that actually look like they are in direct contradiction to the taskmaster's original instructions!."
Even though Paul is talking about us no longer having to do the sin that being under the law provoked me do (because of my marriage to the flesh), it is also true that my new marriage to Christ, and the end of my marriage to the flesh, releases me from the bondage of the law concerning things like animal sacrifice for sin. I am no longer bound by that law because a death has occured that releases me from the authority of the law that governed that old relationship. By all outward appearances, my disobedience to that law is in fact not disobedience at all because a death has occurred! I have legitimately been released (through a death) from it's literal authority over me. Ditto for the other 'letter of the law' requirements that governed us while we were married to the sin nature.
If we are free from the marrage contract as you define it, why do we retain certain clauses of that contract and not others?
Because of the work of Christ on our behalf. Remember, under the law it was all about us and what we had to do. Christ came and did for us which we could not faithfully do for ourselves. Various sacrifices; the timetables to perform those in; appointed times of resting and trusting God, etc...all these lawful requirements are met, having found their satisfactory fulfillment in the work of Christ and the giving of the Holy Spirit. We access that work by belieiving and being sealed with that Holy Spirit. And for the things that require continued fulfillment, like the continuing obligation to love those around us, the Holy Spirit helps us fulfill those lawful requirements. This time around it's all about God and what he has done, instead of the pride and boasting of trying to please God through the effort of the law.
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Also, if we retain certain clauses, are we not again focusing on the law and not the spirit of the marrage?
If you're not careful you will do that. This is the very thing messianics can't see. God wants us to relate to and serve him through the Spirit now, not the written code (Romans 7). I was reviewing Galatians 5 the other night where Paul says 'you have fallen from grace' (vs. 4), the very verse that convicted me of my 'lawful' relationship with God instead of the spiritual relationship he wanted, and I was remembering how different it was to relate to God out of a sense of law instead of through the Spirit.
There was no question that I had turned my life over to Christ and dedicated it to holiness and away from sin. That was the desire of my heart. But I fell into the performance trap of relying on things like going to church, and serving in various ministries and capacites within the church, and other asundry 'duties' of the christian faith (the evangelical equivalent of the messianics literal law). These were my efforts to please God and do what I was supposed to do and show him I believed and was dedicated to him. But then I started learning about what really pleases God and how I should seek to demonstrate my committment to holiness. And that way was through obedience, not sacrifice. Believers and unbelievers alike can be very good at erecting a facade of sacrifices, which prove little about the true nature of a person.
The Bible clearly teaches that obedience is loving people from a changed character, not the sacrifices of the 'how, when, where' of church and ministry and personal disciplines. I learned my sacrifices were made right and acceptable if I put the obedience of character first. It was amazing and life changing. And most of all it set me free from the bondage of relating to God through the imposition of external requirements, relying on them as a source of confirmation of my faith. The very thing Paul said alienated me from the grace of God, not prove I was living in it. I didn't cast those external trappings off completely. I just started letting them be the consequence of first loving people, instead of those things themselves being the goal of my faith.
(I'm in another cycle of busyness. I have more to say as time permits.)
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"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 9/25/2008 11:11:12 AM
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mcleod
Posts: 1076
Joined: 4/4/2006
Status: offline
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ORIGINAL: bob97
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So you are playing with words now. Someone wrote to me and told me tha I need to check my grammer.Which sometimes, oh well most of the time I don't make sense.
At least they care enough to try to help you mcleod…I guess they have just given up on me and my grammar and spelling…it is rather hopeless.
I just use the excuse…God made me the way I am. Just goes to prove...God does enjoy some comedy.
Bob
Thank you so very much for thoses words you wrote.  I am truely laugh after reading your post on the matter.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 9/25/2008 12:12:53 PM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2458
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: online
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ORIGINAL: mcleod
The passage is talking about laws which came out of God's mouth and Moses repeated them back to the children of Israel.
Greetings
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The passage is talking about laws
When Moses was receiving the commandments on the mountain; by what pattern did Moses construct the tabernacle?
I mean there is only 1 pattern not patterns and there is no mention about laws…in reference to Ps119:72 The law of Your mouth (singular)
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Moses repeated them back to the children of Israel.
What pattern did he repeat?
LG
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Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 9/25/2008 5:19:05 PM
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LBolt
Posts: 961
Joined: 11/30/2007
Status: offline
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LG!!! Your back! LOL!
Good to read from you!
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 9/25/2008 5:43:10 PM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 979
Joined: 12/9/2006
Status: online
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
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Then just answer this one question for me. Was the law of animal sacrifice for sin just as binding and unchanged at the time of the writing of the letter to the Hebrews as when God first gave it?
As I have stated before, the sacrifices never forgave sin, but were reminders of the promise the Adonai would forgive our sins. In this way, salvation by grace through faith was exemplified by the sacrifices in the time of the writing of Hebrews as they were in the time of Moshe(Moses).
Now we know the law didn't forgive all sin (thus no salvation via the law), nor did it remove the sin nature itself, but the law does plainly say the person who made the appropriate sacrifice for a particular sin would be forgiven in that situation. What scriptures support what you are saying here--that the sacrifices never forgave sin? And if it is true that the animal sacrifices were reminders of the promise that God would forgive our sins (in the future through Christ is what I'm assuming you mean), and could not forgive sins in and of themselves, why didn't they function that way in regard to all sin? IOW, if the reality of Chirst's forgiveness was the real power behind and represented in the animal sacrifices, why weren't all sins forgiven in the first covenant?
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
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I'm glad you made this clear. If no one can keep Ha Torah,as you stated earlier and "anyone who didn't keep the law in the OT was damned", then everyone before the appearance of Yeshua in the flesh was damned. So, much for chapter 11 of Hebrews.
Yeah, if you stop right there where the law condemns everyone. Everybody in Hebrews 11 was condemned under the law. Hebrews 11 is about what these people had above and beyond any obedience to the law.
But you have repeatedly said that salvation by grace through faith was beyond the understanding of those in the times of the Tanach(OT). Therefore, in this context, I do not understand how "anyone who didn't keep the law in the OT was damned" could not be anything but salvation by works.
I think the reason you're asking this is because you can't help but to think I'm saying 'if anyone who didn't keep the law is damned, then if you keep the law you were saved'. That is just the misguided thinking that dominated the old covenant period of time, and which Paul corrects with the revelation of salvation by faith that he taught. Everybody. then and now, is condemned by the law. And everybody, then and now, who is saved, was saved by grace, not by observance of the law.
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
If "Christ fulfilled the ceremonial requirements for me in his work on the cross" as you define fulfill, then why would Paul tell you to keep them? If you are comparing yourself to the Isrealites, then are you saying anyone who does not get baptised or take communion is damned? That's what you just said regarding them.
Blue, this is all about the OT laws of worship. Paul doesn't tell me to keep the OT ceremonial laws. But I am told to observe the two NT ceremonies of baptism and communion/Passover, neither of which is presented as 'law' with associated penalties for not observing them. These two things truly do have the quality of being 'not requried but meaningful, even beneficial' that you claim the OT worship laws have.
What is it about these "ceremonial laws" that makes them 'not requried but meaningful, even beneficial' that is different from the others apart from your belief that Paul affirms them and rejects the others?
What establishes these two NT observances law with the same status and weight as that of old covenant laws? Christ called the wine and the bread procedure that he kept 'Passover', but it clearly is outside of the legislated procedures of an old covenant Passover. And there are no death penalties associated with it. And he plainly called this new Passover procedure a commemoration, and said it's the exact reason why he wants us to do it. How is that the same as the unbreakable letter of the law (with associated penalties) connected with Moses Passover?
And this matter of baptism. Are we to believe this is really the same legislated washing one was to perform to complete purification found in the old covenant? If you did not complete purification with the bathing required by the law, you were not made clean. Do you dare say no one who is not baptised in the new covenant is still not clean? Your own answer to that will help answer the question about what's different about New Covenant baptism vs. the procedures of the old covenant law. One really is symbolic and is done after the spiritual reality it represents. While the other was requried beforehand to be made clean in accordance with the conditions set forth in the law. (All this is assuming that baptism has more than just a casual correlation with the legislated washings of the old covenant).
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
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But the two NT ones...those are the one's you reject. Go figure.
On the contrary, I believe we should perform mikvah(baptism) as Yeshua directed His disciples and keep Pesach according to Yeshua's seder. It is you who believe it is burdensome to do them as Yeshua showed that they should be done. Go figure.
I realized after I posted that you probably had no problem with baptism. But I do know you got a real problem with observing a Passover that only has wine and bread even though you are adamant that the OT doesn't give clear instructions on how to do a Passover. You have yet to convince me of why messianics are entitled to change the old covenant Passover, because you say there are essentially no directions on how to do one (which I do not agree with at all), while we christians do not have that entitlement.
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 9/26/2008 12:00:51 PM
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mcleod
Posts: 1076
Joined: 4/4/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy
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ORIGINAL: mcleod
The passage is talking about laws which came out of God's mouth and Moses repeated them back to the children of Israel.
Greetings
quote:
The passage is talking about laws
When Moses was receiving the commandments on the mountain; by what pattern did Moses construct the tabernacle?
I mean there is only 1 pattern not patterns and there is no mention about laws…in reference to Ps119:72 The law of Your mouth (singular)
quote:
Moses repeated them back to the children of Israel.
What pattern did he repeat?
LG
Oh my God you did, you just wrote that the pattern of the tabernacle was the same as the law?
The passage in which you are writing about Psalm 119 is for one thing to long to quote. But the idea is the law, not a tabernacle.
As I wrote "Blessed are they who keep his statutes, and seek him with all of their heart. v.2. To go on and on throughout the passage he is talkng about the law. Let us see there is only one law and there is many ways in which to go about following the law. Which is to LOVE the Lord you God with all of your heart. Then LOVE your neighbor as yourself.
Where in the world do you get a tent out that passages which are recorderd in Psalm 119.
Just to get what the writer had in mind read to the earlier verses;" Do good to your servant according to your word, O Lord. Teach me knowledge and good judgement, for I believe in your commands. Before I was afficted I went astray, but now I obey your word. You are good, and what you do is good; teach me your decress. Though the arrogant have smeared me with lies, I keep your precepts with all of my heart. Their hearts are callous and unfeeling, but I delight in your law. It was good for me to be afficted so that I might learn your decrees. Then What you quoted;The law from your mouth is more precious to me than thousands of pieces of silver and gold.
Can't read about some tabernacle into the passage. If you do then you are much more intellegent than me.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 9/27/2008 2:04:53 AM
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