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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/8/2008 12:56:56 AM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1742
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
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quote:
As far as there being alot food out there that's unhealthy, it is what is. I'm just saying that the Creator made certain things a particular way for a reason and He did not want His people to consume them.
If it's only a matter of healthiness, then where's the prohibition on deep-frying? Or over-salting? Heh, turkey bacon may be slightly healthier than pork bacon, but eating it every day will still probably give you some pretty serious problems down the road.
quote:
One thing I know for certain is that we all seem to know and understand the heart of Torah which is to love Elohim with everything w/in us and out neighbor as our selves.
I quite agree. I hope my tone has not come across incorrectly in any of my posts - I hope this is nothing more serious than a friendly discussion. I certainly don't doubt anyone's sincere and genuine commitment to following God as they best know how, and certainly see no serious flaws in anyone's thinking. If I've come across in any other, more negative way, I apologize, and would appreciate hearing where this was, so I can learn not to do it in the future!
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/8/2008 7:50:23 AM
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LBolt
Posts: 961
Joined: 11/30/2007
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Mr. Fribbles , I used to believe like you believe...so I honestly understand where you are coming from. I now you know why no deep frying... What's really fascinating is that the concept of clean and unclean animals existed before the giving of the Torah by Moses. The Ark of Noah paired the uncleaned animals and had 7 pairs of the clean animals. I was alway taught since a kid it was two by two of every animal...
Mr. Fribbles and all interested, a friend of mine sent me an interesting article regarding an artifact which is belief to slightly before Yahshua's birth speaking of 3 day death and resurrection idea circulating...In causing quite a stir in the academic community and may cause a lot of our Jewish brethern to rethink somethings in their beliefs about Yahshua HaMosiach. I posted it in the "Customs of Jesus thread."
Did you have a chance to do a word analysis on "new" in New Covenant yet?
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/8/2008 11:07:02 AM
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mcleod
Posts: 1076
Joined: 4/4/2006
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Lbolt,
quote:
In verse 21, when the liturgy was read, they would learn more. In fact, in Acts 13:41-43, the gentiles were requesting that Paul preach the gospel to them the following Sabbath...not Sunday. OOPs that for the Sabbath thread. It still Law related!
I noticed thatyou put down the gospel which means good news. Why is it that the good news was that Jesus Christ was son of God and not Caeser of Rome in which at that time was the main issue with the gentiles. You seem to thinkit's was about a bunch of laws. Yet study what was happening around that time. You would see that it was about politics as it is today. Jesus while walking here on earth had many times as quoted in the four books. Talk very political in that day. You have to have an understanding of what certian meanings had in the day.
The good news was about a God who had come down to man to restore him back to a relationship to the creator of him. By what he did on here. You would notice that later in the story of man kind. The evil one had introduced a god which went by another name,who pour it's blood out over the earth for human's corruption.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/8/2008 12:44:06 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 2404
Joined: 8/10/2005
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quote:
....from the aspect of Judaism …
or what Nicodemus Biblical understanding was that prompted him to make such a reference
to his mother's womb.... in verse 4 of John 3?
of course it’s my 1 subjective opinion:), invite 3 rabbi, they will get you another 5 (each one holds 2 opinions and he disagrees with both, and the 3rd man is there for free coffee and snacks.)
Judaism is generally not about individ. salvation,it concerns about sin and forgiveness of it - sort of like I(alll of us who has parents) is not concerned about proving I am their child but rather worrying about being in good standing with them, so they are happy and approving what we are doing (and do not disinherit, to make the full analogy).
Being Born into a nation is seen as being elect ( special, apple of God’s eye, chosen), Jew generally does not question it.
Sort of taken for granted. As in :
“For you are a holy people unto the Lord your God..,,,because the Lord loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers…” (Deut 7:6-8).
True Jew is concerned about moral life here on earth, not final judgment which is God’s business. So Nick, coming I presume from the same mindset thought - "Well, the natural birth as a Jew, of course, that is what get us there. Wadda you mean ”anew”?
edit spelling
< Message edited by Odeliya -- 7/8/2008 12:51:15 PM >
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Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/8/2008 12:52:53 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3614
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
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Hey O.
Is this you?
here
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/8/2008 1:55:10 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 2404
Joined: 8/10/2005
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She sings psychadelic trance, and I cant carry a tune if my life depended on it.Consequently I am in Illinois slavering on my internship, not travelling the world with the band
dear Lapie. 
I cant “afford” myspace acc. or such -just because professors, prospective employers can google anything. Internet is the biggest blessing /biggest curse…Pics from LGyps’ wild youth are getting dusty in the attic probably – all the pics in today’s world are forever online to incriminate you...
Except religious threads – i can go wild :) my clinically liberal nutzoidal faculty members wouldn’t want to be caught dead reading about God. I can say anything here! They would rather be seen with a hooker or drunk then with a Bible
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Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/8/2008 2:14:55 PM
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bob97
Posts: 1973
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
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quote:
They would rather be seen with a hooker or drunk then with a Bible
Hope their having a lot of fun, because some day...........
I play golf with a judge...he's a really nice guy and I enjoy him. He is approaching 65, he can’t see worth a hoot, smokes much and drinks quite a bit. The long and short is; he is starting to approach the latter part of his life, within a short time his health will fail in a big way and I keep thinking… what a dismal outlook, to be facing all of that without God in your life. When your health fails and you can see your end…well I know I wouldn’t sleep very good. 
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/8/2008 2:40:04 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 2404
Joined: 8/10/2005
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thanks, bob
i dont really suspect any profs overindulging in bad habits, i probably said it wrong - i w rather tried to say" They would rather be caught drunk or in some other trouble then with Bible or in christian forums"
sort of trying to expressy how much disrespect there is to Christianity in modern ultra liberal academia
yeap,I hear you. Mcleod 
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/8/2008 2:50:34 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 2404
Joined: 8/10/2005
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quote:
BLUETHREAD:
There is great debate between those who believe we should build a temple in preparation for Ha Meshiach and those who believe that it should be built under His direction. Whatever the case, if it is not dedicated by Adonai or His appointed one, it will not be The Temple of Adonai.
 It is all fun and games until one has to open his pocketbook. I am entirely confident you are most decent, wise and common sense- possessing bunch of mensches here that wont fall for crooks tricks, but...
Let me tell you first hand knowledge –various groups in Israel regularly pop up and attempt the good ol scam called "lets build the Temple". Preparation work goes on, bells and whistles are getting purchased,, robes ironed, cement ordered, altar polish solution located is in plain view of news cameras, the whole megillah. ( media bites , they are a known whore- the want a story, any)
Translated from BS to English all the above commotion means: funds are collected from christians to sponsor the building construction ,hooray, the coming is near, we will be taken in rapture but poor Jews will be stuck with a useless, unsellable real estate unit.
Nobody yet has outsmarted the Jew! The whole point is to quickly and efficiently separate naive Christians and some MC groups from their money. So we can debate it to our heart content, but never, ever donate to anything related and that looks like legit construction of the Temple. And may your children and great-grandchildren remember not to! ( not to worry , they wont see the temple either)
Amen. The more people know about it the better. Wonder what other thread can I post this warning?
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Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/8/2008 3:24:00 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3614
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
Status: offline
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quote:
Nobody yet has outsmarted the Jew!
LOL.
I think this was a gift from God.
So they could be the priests of the world to spread His good news.
But, like everything else, a gift from God was used for everything but.
Kinda like the music artists who get their gift from God, sing in the
church choir, but then chase after the money.
But, God's still good and still in control.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/8/2008 3:30:08 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 1536
Joined: 11/8/2007
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Sorry, I took so long to respond. We are finally getting to Scriptural support for the principles previously stated, but which do not appear to be clearly defined. This is a good thing. However, I hope you will be patient, as we will need to move even slower now in order to establish the proper foundation for these principles.
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
... you will not entertain a "literal Sabbath" which Adonai commanded along with avoiding adultery. However, you require a "literal" interpretation of not committing adultery because it is on a list from Paul. As I stated earlier, if one can "change" the Sabbath for the sake of the spirit of the law, then why can't one "change" the prohibition on adultery, for what (swingers) see as the spirit of the law.
See how much easier it would be for you to defend your argument if Paul had not excluded OT worship laws from his lists of do's and don'ts? But as it is, they are noticably absent from his lists of what God expects of us now even though both are contained in the law (thus negating the argument that the laws of worship aren't mentioned because they were already understood to be required).
Again you ignore my question for the purpose of making your point. The question is why does Paul’s view of things supersede, Adonai’s and Yeshua’s? That is presuming there is actually a difference as you propose. And, If I am not mistaken, silence usually indicates consent not rejection, though it proves neither.
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"Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law. (Romans 13:8)
And even that continuing literal requirement gets fulfilled under the supervision of the new way of the Spirit and not the old way of the written code.
Rom 13:7 Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor. 8 Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law. 9 The commandments, "Do not commit adultery," "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet," and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself." 10 Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
In context we see that we should not be debtors, a principle taken from several commands of Ha Torah. In doing this we are loving our neighbor and we have a debt, an obligation to do this. It does not say love is fulfillment of the law, even if it violates Ha Torah. It says love is the fulfillment of the law. Can’t this mean that a truly loving person will do what the law intends? Then, how can we know what the law intends, if we do not look at what was written and ask for Adonai’s guidance?
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Without checking, I think Moses was very specific about how to keep a Passover.
I knew what passages I had in mind. But before I stuck my neck out I wanted to review them again. Here they are:
"3 Tell the whole community of Israel that on the tenth day of this month each man is to take a lamb for his family, one for each household. 4 If any household is too small for a whole lamb, they must share one with their nearest neighbor, having taken into account the number of people there are. You are to determine the amount of lamb needed in accordance with what each person will eat. 5 The animals you choose must be year-old males without defect, and you may take them from the sheep or the goats. 6 Take care of them until the fourteenth day of the month, when all the people of the community of Israel must slaughter them at twilight. 7 Then they are to take some of the blood and put it on the sides and tops of the doorframes of the houses where they eat the lambs. 8 That same night they are to eat the meat roasted over the fire, along with bitter herbs, and bread made without yeast. 9 Do not eat the meat raw or cooked in water, but roast it over the fire—head, legs and inner parts. 10 Do not leave any of it till morning; if some is left till morning, you must burn it. 11 This is how you are to eat it: with your cloak tucked into your belt, your sandals on your feet and your staff in your hand. Eat it in haste; it is the LORD's Passover.
14 "This is a day you are to commemorate; for the generations to come you shall celebrate it as a festival to the LORD -a lasting ordinance. (Exodus 12)
12 "On that same night I will pass through Egypt and strike down every firstborn--both men and animals--and I will bring judgment on all the gods of Egypt. I am the Lord. 13 The blood will be a sign for you on the houses where you are; and when I see the blood, I will pass over you. No destructive plague will touch you when I strike Egypt.”
You missed a spot and a very important spot. For, in verses 12 & 13 we see this is the direction for that specific night. Then in verse 14 he begins the instructions for the perpetual feast.
14 "This is a day you are to commemorate; for the generations to come you shall celebrate it as a festival to the Lord--a lasting ordinance. 15 For seven days you are to eat bread made without yeast. On the first day remove the yeast from your houses, for whoever eats anything with yeast in it from the first day through the seventh must be cut off from Israel. 16 On the first day hold a sacred assembly, and another one on the seventh day. Do no work at all on these days, except to prepare food for everyone to eat--that is all you may do. 17 "Celebrate the Feast of Unleavened Bread, because it was on this very day that I brought your divisions out of Egypt. Celebrate this day as a lasting ordinance for the generations to come. 18 In the first month you are to eat bread made without yeast, from the evening of the fourteenth day until the evening of the twenty-first day. 19 For seven days no yeast is to be found in your houses. And whoever eats anything with yeast in it must be cut off from the community of Israel, whether he is an alien or native-born. 20 Eat nothing made with yeast. Wherever you live, you must eat unleavened bread."
Now we see at least in this passage that there is little guidance on how one is to keep Pesach except the command to remove hametz(leaven) from our houses and the example of the first Pesach. Now there are other passages that give us a few more details, but not many. This is why many have sought to design a Seder that closely matches the first Pesach, but this is latter not a command.
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I don't really want to hammer this. Just tell me why those who insist the law is still to be literally followed don't do that in regard to Passover, yet criticize others who also don't keep it to the letter as clearly detailed by Moses. This is the exact reason why I call this whole law thing a denominational argument, not a matter of truly following the law or not. Many people have opinions of how we all should be doing things, but few of them qualify as being to the letter of the law.
Yes, many have added to what Ha Torah says, yet criticize other based on their misunderstand, just as you have just done. Yes, as I said the Pesach Seder is a matter of ones interpretation. Therefore, for the most part, how one keeps it is not as important as that one keeps it.
quote:
John confirms the fulfillment of Jeremiah's prophecy. And practical experience shows us it did not mean a photographic memory when it comes to the scriptures (Although, our various giftings equip us differently to remember and use those scriptures).
"I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray. As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him. (1 John 2:26-27)
I did not expect you to have a photographic memory only a correct one. One that understands the context of a passage, which is often a vital key in understanding the Spirit of Ha Torah. Another example;
1 John 2:12 “I write to you, dear children . . .”
We see that John is talking to us as a community and not as individuals here, though some of the tings he says could apply to individuals. Also we have to understand what his anointing is. Now using what you know of John, where would he get the idea of anointing. Is this another “new testament” concept that mysteriously appears without any relationship to Ha Torah?
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...the Prophets were aware of Ha Meshiach and His significance, they just didn't have the timeline and circumstances. So, at least with regard to the Spirit of Adonai and His plan, they appear to be up to speed.
Not according to Paul:
"2Surely you have heard about the administration of God's grace that was given to me for you, 3that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation, as I have already written briefly. 4In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5which was not made known to men in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God's holy apostles and prophets. 6This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.
7I became a servant of this gospel by the gift of God's grace given me through the working of his power. 8Although I am less than the least of all God's people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. 10His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms... (Ephesians 3:2-10)
I had hoped to put this off as long as possible. Not because I did not want to address the subject, but because I wanted to discuss it in the proper context. But to answer you accusation against the Patriarchs, here goes.
Eph 2:11 “Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called "uncircumcised" by those who call themselves "the circumcision" (that done in the body by the hands of men)-- 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.”
We see in context Paul is not talking about all men in other generations. Otherwise, he would have just said to other generations. He is talking about those did not understand salvation by grace, but saw circumcision as necessary for salvation. Before Yeshua, some could argue that salvation was by works at that time, as you appear to do. But now we have the proof that salvation is by grace, Adonai’s holy prophet sought to tell us. As Paul tells us;
Rom 11:2 “God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don't you know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah--how he appealed to God against Israel: 3 "Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me"? 4 And what was God's answer to him? "I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal." 5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace.”
So, you see as in ages past and until He comes again, many are called but few are chosen.
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Let me make it clear. He did not change the "old" covenant, He is renewing and will renew the covenant in the future by writing it on our hearts.
But that doesn't answer the question. If everybody has identical access to the Holy Spirit now as everybody did in OT times, what makes this period of time we live in different from the way it was? I'm perplexed by these arguments like 'the law could be kept and was not burdensome', and 'the Holy Spirit was as available then as it is now', etc. These effectively nullify the 'good news' of the coming of the Holy Spirit as a result of Christ's death and resurrection.
As I stated before, what makes this time different is prospective. We now have proof of what Adonai has been telling us all along. The “good news” isn’t the coming of the Ruach Ha Chedosh, though Yeshua did need to leave before Shavuot(Pentecost) so that He could return in the form of Ha Ruach. The good news is that we are not saved by the keeping of the law as some believed, but are now free to serve Adonai out of a humble and contrite spirit and not a spirit of fear.
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
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The Spirit He gave to them was outside of them, manifesting Himself in the tangible things around them. Quote:
Where does it say He only manifest Himself in this way?
To the common man. Only those with special callings and duties had the aid of the Holy Spirit (Levites, Kings, prophets..) beyond seeing signs and miracles with their eyes. Thus the meaning and significance of Mose's wish that all men had the annointing of the Holy Spirit upon them (why wish for something they already have access to?):
"27 A young man ran and told Moses, "Eldad and Medad are prophesying in the camp."
28 Joshua son of Nun, who had been Moses' aide since youth, spoke up and said, "Moses, my lord, stop them!"
29 But Moses replied, "Are you jealous for my sake? I wish that all the LORD's people were prophets and that the LORD would put his Spirit on them!" (Numbers 11:27-29)
Not everybody had the privelege of the Holy Spirit at this time. And apparently not in such a manner as to make the complete and true will of God unveiled to them, thus the need for the annointing of the Holy Spirit to teach and make the truth available to us all .
It does not say those things you propose. It says at that time people other than Moshe prophesied and Moshe wish that Adonis would put His Spirit on all. That is also my wish, that He would put His Spirit on all, but as the Scriptures say, Mt 22:14 "For many are invited, but few are chosen."
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
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John 8:31-48
Romans 2:28-29
Romans 9:6-8
Even being there with Jesus as a fellow Jew just isn't going to be good enough on the day of judgement:
...'We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.' "But he will reply, 'I don't know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!' (Luke 13:26-27)
These verse do not talk of being Jewish as deceitful, but putting ones faith in ones heredity or inherited doctrine.
Read the passages. That's exactly what they are talking about in regard to being Jewish.
Now so I understand you clearly. Are you saying being born a Jew, makes a person more capable of or susceptible to deceit?
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
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We no longer bear the yoke of attaining righteousness, or showing ourselves to be righteous, through the vehicle of the law, the way our spiritual forefathers had to.
Verse please. There actions were considered righteous, they did not make them righteous. Just as our works are washed throught the renewing of our minds by The Word. Righteousness has always been by grace through faith, then as it is now.
"...if we are careful to obey all this law before the LORD our God, as he has commanded us, that will be our righteousness." (Deut. 6:25)
The law is the prescribed way to establish your own righteousness. Faiths is how you secure God's righteousness.
Then what of grace? The way I understand it only Adonai can make someone righteous and faith is not of ourselves but gift of Adonai. Thus, obeying Adonai’s laws just shows that we know Adonai and understand what it means to love our neighbor as ourselves.
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Bottom line is, the law that has been written on our hearts is not the literal law of the old covenant, but the realities the law represented.
Because the literal requirements of the law were still in full authority during David's life. Christ had not come yet to fulfill the debt of external worship all men owed God under the old covenant. As proof of this 'fulfillment' of debt, we now know that God only requires circumcision of the heart, not literal circumcision, as was once totally and completely required under the old covenant.
For salvation no. As Paul tells us, ( Rom 4:9)“We have been saying that Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness. 10 Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before!” Therefore, circumcision saved no one. As Paul continues to say, 11 “And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised.”
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
So, if they were of little value, why would they have to fear the wrath of Adonai if they did not keep them? Also, if the wrath of Adonai was to be feared for keeping things of little value then, then why is it not to be feared now?
Because they aren't required anymore.
Please answer the whole question. If they were of little value, why would they have to fear the wrath of Adonai?
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They only had the promise. Paul says we possess the actual manifestation and fulfilllment of the promise.
"He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit." (Galatians 3:14)
As did Caleb, Rehab and Ruth to name a few. What is new is that it is proclaimed in detail outside of Israel. It has been taken to the nations.
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"...so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe." (Galatians 3:22)
Precisely.
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"3Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. ...7In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace 8that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. 9And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment—to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ. (Eph. 1:3, 7-10)
4” For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will-- 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves.”
Again, you cut out those verses that do not fit your purposes. The part you left out tells us what He is talking about as being fulfilled. When those whom he predestined to be adopted would be holy and blameless in His sight to the praise of His glorious grace. And if we were predestined, then grace was applied before the fact as it was for the Patriarchs.
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And we are indeed living during that time of the fulfillment:
"11These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come. (1 Cor. 10:11)
Good cut and paste job. Just because similar phrases appear in two places does not mean that similarity means the same thing in both places. However, presuming it does in this case, we see that our predestination to be adopted and be holy and blameless in His sight has been fulfilled in our lives as it was for Caleb, Rahab and Ruth to name a few.
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Relating to God through a sense of law deceives people into thinking their outward worship techniques and methods and procedures are the most important thing to God. And only with hearts sensitized by the Holy Spirit in the New Covenant is character seen as the supremely more important matter over and above mere external worhip requirements of the old covenant.
Yes, “mere external worship requirements” are not more important than a humble and contrite heart. I am not saying one is justified in following liturgy. However, if something must be done, would it not be best to do it as Adonai directs.
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/9/2008 9:18:11 AM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 979
Joined: 12/9/2006
Status: online
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Again you ignore my question for the purpose of making your point. The question is why does Paul’s view of things supersede, Adonai’s and Yeshua’s?
I did answer your original question, but I see you missed it. Off the top of my head I'd say there is nothing different about Paul's list except that he goes into more meaningful detail and exhortation. And he excludes many things that we know from the NT overall that we don't have to do anymore.
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Rom 13:7 Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor. 8 Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law. 9 The commandments, "Do not commit adultery," "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet," and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself." 10 Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
In context we see that we should not be debtors, a principle taken from several commands of Ha Torah.
Wrong. Paul is saying quite the opposite in regard to the debt we owe to love one another. He says to let that debt remain outstanding. We are continually in debt to love one another.
That part of the law is never fulfilled in such a way so that we never have to do it literally again. But other debts to the law have been satisfied and are no longer outstanding debts we owe. Animal sacrifice for sin and circumcision being two biggee's that prove what I'm saying. But the command to love another is an ongoing debt that we should never consider to be paid, unlike some commands of the law that we know have been paid in full. That's the point I'm making from these passages.
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...It does not say love is fulfillment of the law, even if it violates Ha Torah. It says love is the fulfillment of the law. Can’t this mean that a truly loving person will do what the law intends?
No. There's no reason to do things we've been told we don't have to do anymore. And those things are worship oriented, not commands that benefit our neighbor. How do things like not needing to be circumcised (to be saved or prove my salvation) fit into your thinking?
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...Then, how can we know what the law intends, if we do not look at what was written and ask for Adonai’s guidance?
Nobody in this forum has said that we cannot learn what love looks like from the law. But Paul and others have given us clearer guidance into what it means to love others through detailed explanations and lists of things not easily discerned through the veil of the law.
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
12 "On that same night I will pass through Egypt and strike down every firstborn--both men and animals--and I will bring judgment on all the gods of Egypt. I am the Lord. 13 The blood will be a sign for you on the houses where you are; and when I see the blood, I will pass over you. No destructive plague will touch you when I strike Egypt.”
You missed a spot and a very important spot. For, in verses 12 & 13 we see this is the direction for that specific night. Then in verse 14 he begins the instructions for the perpetual feast.
It is clear that Moses calls all the instructions prior to these passages you posted as the 'Lord's Passover' (vs. 11). And this is before he instructs them about the Feast of Unleavened Bread that follows the Passover.
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
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I don't really want to hammer this. Just tell me why those who insist the law is still to be literally followed don't do that in regard to Passover, yet criticize others who also don't keep it to the letter as clearly detailed by Moses. This is the exact reason why I call this whole law thing a denominational argument, not a matter of truly following the law or not. Many people have opinions of how we all should be doing things, but few of them qualify as being to the letter of the law.
Yes, many have added to what Ha Torah says, yet criticize other based on their misunderstand, just as you have just done.
I'm not critizing your observance (I've made it clear you can do whatever you want). I'm critizing your hypocrisy in judging others who, like you, do not keep Passover the way Moses's instructed. If you want to use the law as your standard, then you are bound by what it clearly says. You can't argue the law if you're not going to keep it yourself. That's why I call this whole thing a matter of denominational preference, which I believe you have the freedom to entertain. I'm not the one passing judgement on what the minimum requirements of a Passover are. You and others who believe like you are the one's saying the Christian Church isn't observing an appropriate Passover, even though you afford yourselves the liberty of only including what you want to include.
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
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"I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray. As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him. (1 John 2:26-27)
I did not expect you to have a photographic memory only a correct one. One that understands the context of a passage, which is often a vital key in understanding the Spirit of Ha Torah. Another example;
1 John 2:12 “I write to you, dear children . . .”
We see that John is talking to us as a community and not as individuals here, though some of the tings he says could apply to individuals. Also we have to understand what his anointing is. Now using what you know of John, where would he get the idea of anointing. Is this another “new testament” concept that mysteriously appears without any relationship to Ha Torah?
It comes from the prophecies of the OT. Cut to the chase. How does that mean I have to go to Church on Saturday? Enough running around the bush.
I've already shown you we understand the continuation of some OT truth (now lived out in the new way of the Spirit). Let's stick with the point of contention here. And that is OT truth that is no longer literally binding--the OT laws of external worship.
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...I had hoped to put this off as long as possible. Not because I did not want to address the subject, but because I wanted to discuss it in the proper context. But to answer you accusation against the Patriarchs, here goes.
Eph 2:11 “Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called "uncircumcised" by those who call themselves "the circumcision" (that done in the body by the hands of men)-- 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.”
We see in context Paul is not talking about all men in other generations. Otherwise, he would have just said to other generations. He is talking about those did not understand salvation by grace, but saw circumcision as necessary for salvation.
This is so ridiculous I don't even find it necessary to comment on it. To me this is just anohter example of how people make NT scripture support their claims.
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
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The Spirit He gave to them was outside of them, manifesting Himself in the tangible things around them.
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Where does it say He only manifest Himself in this way?
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To the common man. Only those with special callings and duties had the aid of the Holy Spirit (Levites, Kings, prophets..) beyond seeing signs and miracles with their eyes. Thus the meaning and significance of Mose's wish that all men had the annointing of the Holy Spirit upon them (why wish for something they already have access to?):
"27 A young man ran and told Moses, "Eldad and Medad are prophesying in the camp."
28 Joshua son of Nun, who had been Moses' aide since youth, spoke up and said, "Moses, my lord, stop them!"
29 But Moses replied, "Are you jealous for my sake? I wish that all the LORD's people were prophets and that the LORD would put his Spirit on them!" (Numbers 11:27-29)
Not everybody had the privelege of the Holy Spirit at this time. And apparently not in such a manner as to make the complete and true will of God unveiled to them, thus the need for the annointing of the Holy Spirit to teach and make the truth available to us all .
It does not say those things you propose. It says at that time people other than Moshe prophesied and Moshe wish that Adonis would put His Spirit on all. That is also my wish, that He would put His Spirit on all, but as the Scriptures say, Mt 22:14 "For many are invited, but few are chosen."
What is it you do not get? Moses's desire is for all to have the annointing he has. An annointing that was not available to all under the old covenant, but which is now available according to our various callings under the new covenant. There was no annointing for the common man to approach and minister before God. Only those with the calling and the annointing could do that. Now all of us without exception can do that.
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Now so I understand you clearly. Are you saying being born a Jew, makes a person more capable of or susceptible to deceit?
Without a doubt. This deceit stems directly from putting one's confidence in natural lineage, which was just an illustration of the true nation of God's people who are called out and separated from the nations of the world. Just another example of how we are to move from the old literal truths of the old covenant and into the new spiritual truths of the New. Natural lineage means nothing now. The laws regarding that are not being written in their literal understainding on anyone's heart now. The old literal law just isn't the law that is being written on our hearts now. There are just too many examples to prove it.
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...The way I understand it only Adonai can make someone righteous and faith is not of ourselves but gift of Adonai.
And it took the law to prove that to us, just the way God intended.
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...Thus, obeying Adonai’s laws just shows that we know Adonai and understand what it means to love our neighbor as ourselves.
But not all of the laws. At least not in their literal understanding. I've clearly proven some laws simply aren't literally in force anymore. Literal circumcision used to be the required evidence God said you had to get to prove that you 'knew' God. Not anymore (as if that really was proof...only an illustration for our spiritual understanding).
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
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Bottom line is, the law that has been written on our hearts is not the literal law of the old covenant, but the realities the law represented.
Because the literal requirements of the law were still in full authority during David's life. Christ had not come yet to fulfill the debt of external worship all men owed God under the old covenant. As proof of this 'fulfillment' of debt, we now know that God only requires circumcision of the heart, not literal circumcision, as was once totally and completely required under the old covenant.
For salvation no. As Paul tells us, ( Rom 4:9)“We have been saying that Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness. 10 Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before!” Therefore, circumcision saved no one. As Paul continues to say, 11 “And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised.”
For those under the law you could not expect to be 'saved' if you do not submit to circumcision of the penis. Because God had not revealed the full truth yet, it really was the evidence and proof that God said you must produce to show you believed God. That really was the measure of one's faith. But it was an inferior one. We have increased revelation and truth that teaches us that that is no longer the expression of faith God wants from us, and that it was but an illustration of what it truly means to demonstrate your compliance with the covenant. The Holy Spirit is how you comply with the covenant. And circumcision of the flesh nature is the proof of that compliance. Literal circumcision counts for nothing in being saved or proving that you are.
Circumcision of the sin nature is what God wants, alone. And sin is defined as harming your neighbor. Therefore, circumcision of the sin nature from a person finds it's expression in deeds that 'do no harm to your neighbor'. Not in the cutting off of the foreskin as was once commanded as a display of faith. Love is now the display of faith God requries.
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
So, if they were of little value, why would they have to fear the wrath of Adonai if they did not keep them? Also, if the wrath of Adonai was to be feared for keeping things of little value then, then why is it not to be feared now?
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Because they aren't required anymore.
Please answer the whole question. If they were of little value, why would they have to fear the wrath of Adonai?
The only real value they had at that time was they kept you safe from the wrath of God for not obeying them. It was mostly a matter of obedience, not practicality. Literal circumcision is a perfect example of this truth because we now know it as being a big fat nothing that God does not require anymore. There's no more wrath for not keeping those literal requirements anymore.
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
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They only had the promise. Paul says we possess the actual manifestation and fulfilllment of the promise.
"He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit." (Galatians 3:14)
As did Caleb, Rehab and Ruth to name a few. What is new is that it is proclaimed in detail outside of Israel. It has been taken to the nations.
Many within Israel did not possess the promise of the Spirit as we know it today. God provided examples of what was to come in the people you listed.
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...Again, you cut out those verses that do not fit your purposes. The part you left out tells us what He is talking about as being fulfilled. When those whom he predestined to be adopted would be holy and blameless in His sight to the praise of His glorious grace. And if we were predestined, then grace was applied before the fact as it was for the Patriarchs.
Why do you keep going here? Nobody is suggesting that there was no salvation for the Patriarchs. Nor that their salvation was by works of the law. They had the promise of salvation just like we do. But their duty to respond in faith was different than ours. And they laid hold of the promise at the same time we did--at the resurrection of Christ. Christ (by the Holy Spirit) is the fulfillment of the promise. And now together we all await the redemption of our bodies when everything around us conforms to the fulfillment that has already come.
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
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And we are indeed living during that time of the fulfillment:
"11These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come. (1 Cor. 10:11)
Good cut and paste job. Just because similar phrases appear in two places does not mean that similarity means the same thing in both places. However, presuming it does in this case, we see that our predestination to be adopted and be holy and blameless in His sight has been fulfilled in our lives as it was for Caleb, Rahab and Ruth to name a few.
It was not fulfilled for them until Christ died and rose again. They only had the promise. We live in the reality of the resurrection. It happened less than 2000 years ago, not before creation. It was in the mind of God before creation. It was not fulfilled until Christ appeared on earth.
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ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Yes, “mere external worship requirements” are not more important than a humble and contrite heart. I am not saying one is justified in following liturgy. However, if something must be done, would it not be best to do it as Adonai directs.
Let's get to the point. Some things that Adonai once required and directed are not required anymore. People don't have to conform to some of the rigid stipulations of the law to be in fellowship with Him anymore. For example, they don't have to be circumcised in the penis. They don't have to avoid the unclean circumstances of Leviticus. Those stipulations are met in the indwelling Holy Spirit.
I don't care if you respond to all of this stuff. Pick one thing to talk about. If nothing else, just tell me. Why do I still have to observe the Feasts and go to Church on Saturday, and fulfill other OT worship requirements, but I don't have to be circumcised, or keep the laws of unclean discharges anymore to the letter, and other things, even though those things are plainly part of OT worship, too?
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"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/9/2008 10:02:08 AM
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mcleod
Posts: 1076
Joined: 4/4/2006
Status: offline
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Okay after to long post by Blue thread and Spongsblob,
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In context we see that we should not be debtors, a principle taken from several commands of Ha Torah. In doing this we are loving our neighbor and we have a debt, an obligation to do this. It does not say love is fulfillment of the law, even if it violates Ha Torah. It says love is the fulfillment of the law. Can’t this mean that a truly loving person will do what the law intends? Then, how can we know what the law intends, if we do not look at what was written and ask for Adonai’s guidance?
You Blue thread brought up a interesting passage from Paul on that statement. Yet when he wrote to the Corthians he didn't even mention the Torah there in that area. You can keep the passover and anything else which is in the torah and you happen to forget to keep the writings in which is told how to treat the Almighty and your fellow humans. Then you have fail miserable in all of it.
I keep forgeting who wants keep the animals sacrifice going and who doesn't. But as I was watching on Link TV this early morning. There is a religion who shed blood over everything and even on their little goddess girl. All I could think was what a lost civilation, who hasn't realized. That the creator of everything has paid it all.
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RE: Keep The Law? - One Stop Thread - 7/9/2008 8:14:15 PM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2458
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
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ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy
Jesus said concerning the HS, said....not to worry what to say; because it will be given to us in that hour what it is we should say,
But I am afraid it's been over an hour; or a long time now.... and He has not let me remember what post/verse on the Holy Spirit you're referring to at this point? 
sure.
What is you comment would be to this verse in the light of your view re: birth from HS:
"But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth." (2 Thessalonians 2:13)
Greetings,
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What would your comments be to this verse in the light of your view of the
re: birth from HS: ??
"But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth." (2 Thessalonians 2:13)
My first comment is…. I hope you don’t mind but I adjusted your grammar a little ...
Is you’re internship in the medical field??
If so ….it is a very scary thing when a Doctor is performing surgery and he says OooP's!
re: birth from HS: ??
Ok ….as Paul has mentioned above…..in re: to… birth from HS …..
I don’t know what you believe so if you could answer this question,
…….What does sanctifying mean; by definition it is to make something a means of achieving holiness or a source of grace; by being set apart.
So when does that sanctifying work of the Spirit “onto” salvation begin; before or after passing trough the blood of Christ??
That answer is found in Exodus, the Passover (blood) and the Feast of Unleavened bread = (sanctification, as being set apart)
LG
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Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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